Changlings, Racial Emulation, and Racial Substitution levels

[Madara]

Ok. There are a few thoughts and questions here, but you can pick and choose which to answer.

For a Changling with the racial emulation feat(RoE110), do they qualify for racial substitution levels? I assume they do, since it allows them to qualify for prestige classes with a racial requirement.

Unlike PrCs, racial substitution levels don't have the line where "If you no longer qualify for the class you no longer get the benefits" because they don't expect there to be any way to have that problem, since these are base classes. So does that mean that a changeling could become say a Dwarf for the Dwarven cleric sub level 1, and then switch to another race for a different sub level later? Would they still have the abilities from the sub level?

[Psyren]

The feat says:


Though you do not gain any of the humanoid's traits, you are considered to be a member of that race for all other purposes...

So I'd say yes, Racial Subs are on the table. But as far as switching races and what happens to your levels if you do - I'd say that's a DM call.

[Madara]

The feat says:

So I'd say yes, Racial Subs are on the table. But as far as switching races and what happens to your levels if you do - I'd say that's a DM call.

Any thoughts on what the RAW would be? It'd make a really fun build to get as many racial sub levels as possible.

[Fouredged Sword]

The closest I can think of would be to say that you no longer qualify for the racial sub switch, so you no longer can use it's class ability. You also do not gain back what you traded to get that ability.

Bad, but not so bad considering you can just switch back to the correct race.

[VGLordR2]

There's nothing really concrete either way. However, I found this in Races of the Dragon.


To qualify to take a racial substitution level, you must be of the proper race.

Emphasis mine.

By strict RAW, you only need to be the race in order to acquire the racial substitution levels. There are no clauses anywhere that say you need to be the race in order to keep the substitution levels.

Of course, this is a very shaky argument at best. It is also most likely against RAI.

Out of curiosity, did you have any particular plans with this potential exploit?

[dextercorvia]

RAW, you are fine. Take as many as you want. I tried to build a character like that once, and there can be some good synergy, but not as much as you'd think. There is one hint at RAI, and it involves racial paragon classes.


It's possible for a powerful magic effect such as shapechange, reincarnate, or wish to change a character's race. If a character has already taken racial paragon levels in his original race, he can never become a paragon of another race. However, such shapechanging and form-altering magics also cause no loss of a paragon's class abilities—the class abilities gained from racial paragon levels are affected no more or less drastically than benefits gained from having levels in any other class.

The first part about never becoming a paragon of another race, is restating that the general rule for racial paragons is one per character. Racial Sub levels have no such rule. But the second part seems applicable. Especially the part about no more or less drastically than levels in any other class.

[Madara]

There's nothing really concrete either way. However, I found this in Races of the Dragon.



Emphasis mine.

By strict RAW, you only need to be the race in order to acquire the racial substitution levels. There are no clauses anywhere that say you need to be the race in order to keep the substitution levels.

Of course, this is a very shaky argument at best. It is also most likely against RAI.

Out of curiosity, did you have any particular plans with this potential exploit?

Well, it isn't full of exploits yet, I just think it would be the foundation for some solid builds. I was looking into the classes with the most substitution levels. Something I noticed was that not are sub levels are at the same level. For example(not actual material)

You could take
Elven Paladin 1
then say that Half-Orc Paladin happens to have a sub level at 2
and Elven has another one at 3
and Dwarven has one at 5

This is really nice for classes without class features (Fighter) or when the best sub levels are from different races. I'm still looking for fun exploits, but right now its best for spicing up a character.

[Psyren]

RAW, you are fine. Take as many as you want. I tried to build a character like that once, and there can be some good synergy, but not as much as you'd think. There is one hint at RAI, and it involves racial paragon classes.



The first part about never becoming a paragon of another race, is restating that the general rule for racial paragons is one per character. Racial Sub levels have no such rule. But the second part seems applicable. Especially the part about no more or less drastically than levels in any other class.

Nice quote. I think that's as close as we're going to get to RAI.

Moreover, racial paragon levels are even more tied to race than "mere" subs, by my estimation.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yes, after reading that section I change my mind to agree as well.

[dextercorvia]

Yeah from a purely non-metagame perspective. I see a Changeling using racial emulation to study with the desired race, and learning their secrets. Of course, with class as a metagame construct philosophy, even that becomes unnecessary.