Pathfinder: Combining Archetypes

[The Redwolf]

So I was wondering, are you able to take multiple archetypes within the same class for different levels, like could you have 5 levels of alchemist with archetype A, 5 levels of alchemist with archetype B, and 5 levels of straight alchemist, as long as nothing conflicts totally?

[grarrrg]

So I was wondering, are you able to take multiple archetypes within the same class for different levels, like could you have 5 levels of alchemist with archetype A, 5 levels of alchemist with archetype B, and 5 levels of straight alchemist, as long as nothing conflicts totally?

No.
You either take the full archetype, or none at all.
There is no mix-and-match.

Please see also Cieyrin's Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12555815#post12555815) on Archetype pairing.

[legomaster00156]

No, you cannot. You can't multiclass one class with itself, even with different ACF's.

[The Redwolf]

I saw that thread, which is what made me wonder, but it specifically talks about archetypes that work well with each other within a class which is where I got confused. Before I saw that thread I didn't even consider it being possible.

[Lord Tyger]

You can combine archetypes, as long as none of the archetypes replace the same class powers.


A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as another alternate class feature. For example, a fighter could not be both an armor master and a brawler, since both archetypes replace the weapon training 1 class feature with something different.

That said, no, you can't switch archetypes partway through.

[SamBurke]

I saw that thread, which is what made me wonder, but it specifically talks about archetypes that work well with each other within a class which is where I got confused. Before I saw that thread I didn't even consider it being possible.

Here's how it works: each archetype replaces or changes certain aspects of your character. If archetype A changes class ability X, then Archetype B, which also changes X, is not going to be compatible. However, Archetype C, which removes Y, but leaves X in tact, would be compatible.

[Psyren]

How it works - as long as Archetype A and Archetype B don't overlap (i.e. replace or modify the same features) you can combine them.

But yeah, they're not like ACFs, where you can choose at any time to go with the standard benefit or the alternate one. Once you choose an archetype, you get everything it provides - PrCs are your only escape.

[The Redwolf]

Here's how it works: each archetype replaces or changes certain aspects of your character. If archetype A changes class ability X, then Archetype B, which also changes X, is not going to be compatible. However, Archetype C, which removes Y, but leaves X in tact, would be compatible.

So if it says you get an ability in place of another one then you can't have the two together, it isn't just like you don't get those levels you used for it in advancement of the other, they just can't be used? That sucks...

[The Redwolf]

I was hoping that you could take them and it would just be like if you have the ability to the level 5 version of it and you take another archetype that replaces that ability you just would be stuck with the level 5, oh well. Thanks for your help.

[grarrrg]

I was hoping that you could take them and it would just be like if you have the ability to the level 5 version of it and you take another archetype that replaces that ability you just would be stuck with the level 5, oh well. Thanks for your help.

You must take the full archetype, part of the reason for this is that NOT all Archetypes are 1-to-1 trades, most of them factor the total given vs. the total gotten.

Some examples:
LOTS of Paladin archetypes reduce the number of times you can Smite Evil, but don't "directly" give you anything to replace it. (Sacred Servant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/sacred-servant), Hospitaler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/hospitaler)).

An even bigger offender is the Empyreal Knight (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/empyreal-knight) Paladin. At 2nd level it loses Divine Grace (arguably the BEST Paladin ability) and gains....the ability to speak/read Celestial language. Gaining the ability to speak or read a language typically costs _1_ skill point.
(Note: Empyreal Knight is not a bad archetype, it just doesn't become "worth it" until higher levels)

Musket Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger/archetypes/paizo---gunslinger-archetypes/musket-master) Gunslinger gets Rapid Reload as a Bonus feat at level 1. Nothing was 'directly' traded for it.

[Certified]

What about treating Archetypes as a unique class? That is to say a 10th Level characters might have 5 Levels of kensai, and 5 levels of soul forger. This does not stack Levels the character would only be a 5th level caster, albeit with a huge large pool of spells per day and only have up to the 5th Level abilities of each class.

[Lord Tyger]

What about treating Archetypes as a unique class? That is to say a 10th Level characters might have 5 Levels of kensai, and 5 levels of soul forger. This does not stack Levels the character would only be a 5th level caster, albeit with a huge large pool of spells per day and only have up to the 5th Level abilities of each class.

RAW and RAI this is not allowed. If you can get your GM to agree to it, obviously it's fine, but then, that applies to taking the first level of fighter ten times. (Full BAB, awesome fort saves, hilariously nonexistent other saves, and so many bonus feats).

[Larpus]

Out of curiosity: what about alternate classes, such as the Ninja, Samurai and Anti-Paladin (ok, this last one is impossible for its own reasons)?

[grarrrg]

Out of curiosity: what about alternate classes, such as the Ninja, Samurai and Anti-Paladin (ok, this last one is impossible for its own reasons)?

Given that the Samurai and Anti-Paladin have their own sets of archetypes Sword Saint (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/samurai/archetypes/paizo---samurai-archetypes/sword-saint) and Knight of the Sepulcher (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/antipaladin/archetypes/paizo---antipaladin-archetypes/knight-of-the-sepulcher) respectively, I would say the official stance is that you cannot use an 'original class' archetype on an Alt class.

So by RAW you can't be, say, a Holy Tactician (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/holy-tactician) Antipaladin, or a Scout (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/scout) Ninja.

That being said, feel free to ask your DM to allow them on a case-by-case basis, so long as the traded-away features are still there.
A Scout Ninja could work, as the Ninja still has Uncanny Dodge, which the Scout trades away.
But a Knife Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/knife-master) could NOT work, as the Ninja lacks the Trapfinding that Knife Master gets rid of.

[Cieyrin]

Given that the Samurai and Anti-Paladin have their own sets of archetypes Sword Saint (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/samurai/archetypes/paizo---samurai-archetypes/sword-saint) and Knight of the Sepulcher (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/antipaladin/archetypes/paizo---antipaladin-archetypes/knight-of-the-sepulcher) respectively, I would say the official stance is that you cannot use an 'original class' archetype on an Alt class.

So by RAW you can't be, say, a Holy Tactician (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/holy-tactician) Antipaladin, or a Scout (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/scout) Ninja.

That being said, feel free to ask your DM to allow them on a case-by-case basis, so long as the traded-away features are still there.
A Scout Ninja could work, as the Ninja still has Uncanny Dodge, which the Scout trades away.
But a Knife Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/knife-master) could NOT work, as the Ninja lacks the Trapfinding that Knife Master gets rid of.

When I wrote the handbook, I was under the assumption that alternate classes COULD take archetypes, it's just that it's more difficult to do in a lot of cases. Case in point, Antipaladin can't typically take Paladin archetypes, since they have none of the paladin features being traded typically, like Antipaladin's don't have Divine Bond, Smite Evil or Divine Bond to trade for Holy Tactician's features, among others. Samurai suffer similar problems, as the commonly traded features of Cavalier are already traded in Samurai. Ninja are the exception in this, as they can take the Uncanny Dodge trading Archetypes, which is a significant portion of Rogue Archetypes. Basically, I take the Alternate classes as super Archetypes, essentially, as they work in essentially the same way, just typically trading more than Archetypes tend to.

As has been beaten into the ground already, there's no 1-1 trading of archetypes, you trade everything when you take an Archetype, you can't decide which level has what archetypes attached in a mix and match manner. Paizo doesn't much care for the ala carte approach to character design, unfortunately, unless it's self-contained in a class and even then, they're often kinda annoying about how they go about it. :smallannoyed:

[Larpus]

Again, out of sheer morbid curiosity: would it be possible for, say, a Ninja taken Rogue levels?

Or the rules do consider alternate classes as "very intrusive archetypes"?

[Cieyrin]

Again, out of sheer morbid curiosity: would it be possible for, say, a Ninja taken Rogue levels?

Or the rules do consider alternate classes as "very intrusive archetypes"?

If you read the rules on Alternate classes, it's strictly forbidden to have levels of both the original and alternate, so you couldn't be a Rogue/Ninja or a Cavalier/Samurai.

[Larpus]

Ah, I see.

Sorry for the dumb question, never really read much about them (no real reason, just never got the itch to do it).

[grarrrg]

When I wrote the handbook, I was under the assumption that alternate classes COULD take archetypes, it's just that it's more difficult to do in a lot of cases.

I have not seen a definitive ruling on Alt-Class taking Main-Class archetypes. But there is a decent pile of circumstantial evidence: Alt's having their own, unique, Archetypes, and Alt's just plain not qualifying for most of the Main-archetyeps.

Like I said, ask your DM to see if he'll allow Alt's with Main-archetypes.


If you read the rules on Alternate classes, it's strictly forbidden to have levels of both the original and alternate, so you couldn't be a Rogue/Ninja or a Cavalier/Samurai.

Which gets somewhat annoying when you are trying to optimize your Sneak Attack and the only base classes that have it are Rogue/Ninja/Alchemist (Vicisecionist)* NONE of which 'work well' together.
You can only take one of Rogue/Ninja, and Alchemist "stacks levels" with them so you can't get 2d6 Sneak out of two levels.

*for the sake of completeness there is a fourth** base class, Bard with Sandman archetype, but it gets its first Sneak Dice at level _5_, and every _5_ levels thereafter.

**for further completeness, there is the Bushwaker Gunslinger Racial archetype that functions as Sneak damage, but you must be a Kobold, must use a Firearm, and don't get it until level 4.

[Curious]

Given that the Samurai and Anti-Paladin have their own sets of archetypes Sword Saint (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/samurai/archetypes/paizo---samurai-archetypes/sword-saint) and Knight of the Sepulcher (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/antipaladin/archetypes/paizo---antipaladin-archetypes/knight-of-the-sepulcher) respectively, I would say the official stance is that you cannot use an 'original class' archetype on an Alt class.

So by RAW you can't be, say, a Holy Tactician (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/holy-tactician) Antipaladin, or a Scout (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/scout) Ninja.

That being said, feel free to ask your DM to allow them on a case-by-case basis, so long as the traded-away features are still there.
A Scout Ninja could work, as the Ninja still has Uncanny Dodge, which the Scout trades away.
But a Knife Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/knife-master) could NOT work, as the Ninja lacks the Trapfinding that Knife Master gets rid of.

Ah, well, that is debatable. RAW, it may be possible for an alternate class to take archetypes from the main class, due to this line in the description of alternate classes.


An alternate class operates exactly as a base class, save that a character who takes a level in an alternate class can never take a level in its associated class—a samurai cannot also be a cavalier, and vice versa.

Taken strictly as is, this would allow for alternate classes to use archetypes intended for base classes. Might be tricky to slide by a DM though.

[NimoStar]

Ah, well, that is debatable. RAW, it may be possible for an alternate class to take archetypes from the main class, due to this line in the description of alternate classes.

Taken strictly as is, this would allow for alternate classes to use archetypes intended for base classes. Might be tricky to slide by a DM though.

Sorry for the revival but this does NOT mean that. I think the necro is OK because I am bringing new info to the table.

Don't take me wrong, I am all for exapanding game options and would allow taking a Rogue subclass with a Ninja if appropiate, but, as written, it never appears that this is allowed.

When it says alternate classes work "just as A main class" it means that they are inteded to be their own main class, not that they work like the main class they are based on.

Adding to this, they get their own subclasses; if not, Ninja and Rogue subclass (Archetype) list would be merged.

Even then, you are right for the wrong reasons:

Alternate Classes

Sometimes an archetype exchanges so many class features that it almost becomes a new class itself. In such cases, the class might warrant a representation of all of the class features, even those that it shares with its base class. While still technically an archetype, characters who play this class have all the tools they need to advance their character in one convenient location. The antipaladin, ninja, and samurai are all examples of an alternate class.

So ninja *is*¨combinable with other archetypes, since Ninja itself is an archetype.
See "creating new classes" on Pathfinder reference document for this quote (forum wont let me post links)

[Roland St. Jude]

Sorry for the revival but this does NOT mean that. I think the necro is OK because I am bringing new info to the table.Sheriff: Nothing in the Forum Rules suggests that it's okay to revive threads for that reason. Please review the Forum Rules and don't necro old threads.