Need some (PEACH) on rules for a homebrew campaing

[Roderick_BR]

Hey there. Was watching some old movies and cartoons, and got inspired in making an "epic" game with some friends. Epic as in those mythical movies, not D&D's Epic Level Handbook. Characters fight armies, giant monsters, and a god or two sometimes.
To keep the game moving, I'm going all Holliwoodian instead of realistic and gritty, so I'm making a small set of rules, and would like some review and suggestions.

Classes:

Fighters, barbarians, and monks are replaced by the Tome of Battle's classes.
All classes gains Use Simple and Martial ranged weapons, like a normal figther. It just feels like feat tax otherwise.
Sword Sage can use the unarmed variant, including the Ki Strike feature (magical, alignment, adamantine).
Crusader loses the religious background fluff and the alignments restriction.
Paladins and rangers gains a spell days/known progression like the bard's, and become spontaneous casters.
Paladins can learn spells from the cleric list, rangers can learn spells from the druid's list, and bards can learn spells from the wizard/sorcerer's list.
Paladins, rangers, and bards also drop the alignment restrictions, but keeping the deity alignment/spellcasting restrictions as usual.
Full casters (wizard, sorcerer, cleric, and druid) are removed from the setting, with the paladin/ranger/bard in their place.
Rogues gains fighter's bonus feat at 1st and every even level (2nd, 4th, 6th, etc). Since he's the "normal" of the bunch (no super powered maneuvers or magic), he can be the "super normal" one.


Other rules:

Instead of normal AC rules, I'll use Defense Bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm) and Armor as DR (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/armorAsDamageReduction.htm).
Armors will give DR based on the new table (just a bit similar to the original AC values). Maximum Dexterity Bonus will be increased. A new "Maximum Defense Bonus" column works just like dexterity, but affects the character's Defense Bonus, being usually twice the Dexterity Bonus (even if it shows values above the normal maximum Defense value). Shields will give a little better AC bonus, and it will count against touch attacks, but otherwise works as normal. "Energy" armor like Mage Armor works as normal, giving AC.
Magic enchancement both enchances the Damage Reduction value, and grants an Armor Bonus to AC. For example, a Scale Mail gives DR 4. A Scale mail +1 will give DR 5 and +1 to AC.

Table: Armor and Shields
{table=head]Armor|AC Bonus|Damage<br />Reduction|Maximum<br />Dex Bonus|Maximum<br />Defense Bonus|Armor Check<br /> Penalty|Arcane Spell<br />Failure Chance|Speed<br />(30ft/20ft)
Light Armor
Padded|0|1|10|20|0|5%|30ft/20ft
Leather|0|2|8|16|0|10%|30ft/20ft
Studded Leather|0|3|7|14|-1|15%|30ft/20ft
Chain shirt|0|4|6|12|-2|20%|30ft/20ft
Medium Armor
Hide|0|3|6|12|-3|20%|20ft/15ft
Scale mail|0|4|5|10|-4|25%|20ft/15ft
Chain mail|0|5|4|8|-5|30%|20ft/15ft
Breast plate|0|5|6|12|-4|25%|20ft/15ft
Heavy Armor
Splint mail|0|6|2|4|-7|40%|20ft/15ft
Banded mail|0|6|3|6|-6|35%|20ft/15ft
Half-plate|0|7|2|4|-7|40%|20ft/15ft
Full plate|0|8|3|6|-6|35%|20ft/15ft
Shields
Buckler|1|0|-|-|-1|5%|-
Shield, light|2|0|-|-|-1|5%|-
Shield, medium|3|0|-|-|-2|15%|-
Shield, tower|4|0|4|8|-10|50%|-[/table]

Characters can use Reserve Points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/reservePoints.htm) when not in battle. That, with all the healing spells and maneuvers means that characters don't need to worry so much with HP.
Magic itens can't be normally bought or crafted, only found in treasure or special prizes/payment.
Players can still buy expendables, like potions and scrolls.
Rechargeable itens likes wands and staves can be ordered to be recharged at special NPC places.

In short, meleers have cool toys, you have only 2/3 casters with some physical resistance instead of crappy 1/2 casters and overpowered full casters, rogues are (non-magical)Batman, and magic itens are rare.

The scenario is something like those old Hercules or Sindbad movies, with characters having to fight mythological beasts, and players having to solve the ocasional puzzle.
Any thoughts or suggestions? Thanks in advance.

[Yitzi]

Fighters, barbarians, and monks are replaced by the Tome of Battle's classes.

This can work, and can make the game more interesting, but make sure you get the whole group's agreement first, or at least make sure everyone is familiar with and owns ToB. There's nothing worse (in gaming) than joining a campaign and finding that the class you wanted to play has been replaced by something from a sourcebook you don't have easy access to.


All classes gains Use Simple and Martial ranged weapons, like a normal figther. It just feels like feat tax otherwise.

I don't know what the ToB classes are, so I can't tell if that's a good idea, but if the monk-equivalent has high speed then giving them decent ranged weapons can make them overpowered.


Paladins and rangers gains a spell days/known progression like the bard's, and become spontaneous casters.
Paladins can learn spells from the cleric list, rangers can learn spells from the druid's list, and bards can learn spells from the wizard/sorcerer's list.

So high-level paladins can cast stuff like Righteous Might. That's a significant power boost (making paladins into melee monsters superior to an equivalent clericzilla), make sure you want that.

Rangers now can do stuff like snipe with Produce Flame, or Summon Swarm and then hide so their concentration can't be broken. Druid spells have a surprisingly high synergy with sneaking ability, and rangers are among the best sneaks in the game. Now, it might be that you want a ranger to be able to do that sort of thing...but if not, you should probably reconsider.

Bards have a similar issue, although wizard spells usually aren't as sneak-friendly. Hitting with enervation or Flesh to Stone from hiding is a nasty trick, though.


Paladins, rangers, and bards also drop the alignment restrictions, but keeping the deity alignment/spellcasting restrictions as usual.

I don't think there are any deity alignment/spellcasting restrictions. Do you mean that paladins take on the equivalent restrictions of the cleric?


Full casters (wizard, sorcerer, cleric, and druid) are removed from the setting, with the paladin/ranger/bard in their place.

This does mean that any spells above level 6 are unavailable. In particular:
1. You cannot bring back any creature that was killed by a death effect or turned into undead. So if a party member dies to Slay Living, that's it for him.
2. You cannot bring back a creature whose body was destroyed.


Rogues gains fighter's bonus feat at 1st and every even level (2nd, 4th, 6th, etc). Since he's the "normal" of the bunch (no super powered maneuvers or magic), he can be the "super normal" one.

I'd advise making many non-bonus-fighter-feats (pretty much anything useful to a skillmonkey) also available for the rogue.

Other rules:
[list]
Instead of normal AC rules, I'll use Defense Bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm) and Armor as DR (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/armorAsDamageReduction.htm).[/quote]

This is definitely a good combination, but be aware of the consequences. In particular, touch attacks will no longer be nearly guaranteed to hit (which is arguably a very good thing), and low-STR melee builds will suffer due to the DR (this can be dealt with by saying that the armor as DR variant does not apply when Weapon Finesse is used.)


Magic enchancement both enchances the Damage Reduction value, and grants an Armor Bonus to AC. For example, a Scale Mail gives DR 4. A Scale mail +1 will give DR 5 and +1 to AC.

That makes armor enhancement twice as good; consider raising its price to match that of weapon enhancements.

About the table: If your only arcane casters are bards, light armor probably should have no arcane spell failure chance.


Characters can use Reserve Points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/reservePoints.htm) when not in battle. That, with all the healing spells and maneuvers means that characters don't need to worry so much with HP.

If you want HP to be so easily replacable, ok, but be aware that that will make for a less dangerous game than otherwise.


Magic itens can't be normally bought or crafted, only found in treasure or special prizes/payment.

Quite a big change, and it will mean that you can't rely on any of the usual assumptions regarding appropriate challenges or balance. It's definitely good for a certain sort of game.

Note, however, that without buyable permanent magic items there is far less use for cash at the higher levels. Either provide other purposes (perhaps the PCs can buy themselves a castle or estate), or give plenty of nonmonetary bonuses. Also, be ready for them to buy (and use) a lot more expendables, which will also have substantial effects on appropriate challenge levels and balance.

It certainly seems like it will make for an interesting game (a couple of the ideas echo my own plans for my system rework), but be aware of the consequences.

[Roderick_BR]

Thanks man, just really needed someone to catch something I may have missed.

My group is fine with Tome of Battle, no problem here, as we'll start a brand new campaign. In the original, they are melee warriors that doesn't start out with any ranged weapon. I think it won't change much to let them use bows, as there's no default ranged abilities for bows and crossbows. Just feat tax.

Yes, Paladins can go semi-clericzilla, but then again, it's like a cleric trading 7th-9th level spells for a permanent "divine power", having full BAB and average +1 HP all day long. In fact, if you ask "hey, let's nerf the cleric. he gets only up to 6th level spells, but gains full BAB and has 1d10 as hit dice" and people will say he will suck.

I'll admit I don't know much about druid spells, but then again, ranger, as the paladin, is vastly underpowered, so a power boost is good, and helps them keep up with Tome of Battle.
All in all, my friends doesn't optmize, so I think I'll be alright. They'll probably spend all slots on healing and fireballs XD

And yes, being turned into undead monsters or have your body fully destroyed will actually be a treat, not merely an expensive speedbump.

I'll consider allowing rogues pick rogue-ish feats with his bonus.

Yes, I'm fine with touch attacks be less effective. Notice that wearing heavier armor does reduce your overall defense. It's a trade off for warriors. And yes, being nearly invulnerable against weaker enemies is intended. They'll be fighting giant and magical monsters a lot.

I'll make armor be as worth as weapons, with shields normal cost.

Finally, yes, HP itself should be easier to restore.

Thanks again for the review.

[Yitzi]

Thanks man, just really needed someone to catch something I may have missed.

My group is fine with Tome of Battle, no problem here, as we'll start a brand new campaign. In the original, they are melee warriors that doesn't start out with any ranged weapon. I think it won't change much to let them use bows, as there's no default ranged abilities for bows and crossbows. Just feat tax.

I'd say let the fighter-equivalent use bows and crossbows and apply some appropriate maneuvers to them, and let the barbarian-equivalent use bows and crossbows but not apply the maneuvers, but restrict the monk-equivalent to thrown weapons only.


Yes, Paladins can go semi-clericzilla, but then again, it's like a cleric trading 7th-9th level spells for a permanent "divine power", having full BAB and average +1 HP all day long. In fact, if you ask "hey, let's nerf the cleric. he gets only up to 6th level spells, but gains full BAB and has 1d10 as hit dice" and people will say he will suck.

I suppose that makes sense.


I'll admit I don't know much about druid spells, but then again, ranger, as the paladin, is vastly underpowered, so a power boost is good, and helps them keep up with Tome of Battle.

The thing is, while a ranger is vastly underpowered in conventional combat, his skills make him quite effective at guerilla combat, and druid spells also lean toward the unconventional.

Imagine combining Camouflage/HiPS with a multiuse ranged touch attack (e.g. produce flame); while the defense bonus (which inexplicably applies even when flat-footed) reduces the danger somewhat, rangers are full-BAB, with the result it's still a very nasty combo. Summon Swarm is very difficult to stop at lower levels (especially if you don't have an evoker handy) except by interrupting the caster (since it's a concentration spell); again, the hide skill is really strong here.

Or for a really nasty villain, imagine a guerrilla/terrorist ranger (K: geography plus Hide/Move Silently/Listen/Spot make rangers very effective at the guerrilla business, and Camouflage only makes it worse at high levels; if you allow UA variants, the wildshape/fast movement variant makes it even worse) with access to (in addition to Nondetection which rangers already get, but which he gets earlier) Control Water. No coastal village is safe.

Essentially, rangers aren't so much underpowered as that nobody plays them properly. Played properly (which may require a nonstandard party), they're quite powerful, and druid spells are probably the set that increases that the most.


All in all, my friends doesn't optmize, so I think I'll be alright.

That would help.

Although actually, traditional optimizers also wouldn't pose much of a threat, as they tend to focus on the sorts of things you are nerfing effectively. It's the creative ones you have to watch out for here, as they generally don't find druids and rangers to be that underpowered already...

But if your friends aren't that sort (or you're ok with the challenge (and fun) of DMing for that sort), then that probably isn't an issue.

[toapat]

The changes to rogue seem vastly overpowered on the surface to me.

Paladin itself can be pushed without houserules or homebrew upto tier 3. OTOH most people wouldn't call the end result a paladin so much as a warlord

The loss of the barbarian is one to mourn

[Yitzi]

The changes to rogue seem vastly overpowered on the surface to me.

Really? He's still a 3/4 BAB class, and the only one without maneuvers or spells, so won't be too good at fighting. He can be incredibly overpowered through noncombat if he uses skills cleverly, but that's not the result of the changes.


Paladin itself can be pushed without houserules or homebrew upto tier 3.

I'm wondering how this is done.


The loss of the barbarian is one to mourn

If the ToB equivalent is fluffed like a barbarian, I don't think you lose that much.

[toapat]

Really? He's still a 3/4 BAB class, and the only one without maneuvers or spells, so won't be too good at fighting. He can be incredibly overpowered through noncombat if he uses skills cleverly, but that's not the result of the changes.

I'm wondering how this is done.

If the ToB equivalent is fluffed like a barbarian, I don't think you lose that much.

the rogue gets 17 feats to correct his weak BAB.

Tempest Stormwind did that here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29110689), and the entire paladin handbook is about playing a paladin right (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/08/paladins-handbook.html)

A crusader is a Paladin who traded spells for martial arts prowess, not a barbarian who has some discipline. Refluffing doesnt fill in the missing hole of where the hell did our native of mount areat go?

[Yitzi]

the rogue gets 17 feats to correct his weak BAB.

6 of them don't count because the full-BAB classes get them too.

As for the others, I doubt that it ends up being worth as much as full BAB plus maneuvers or spells.


Tempest Stormwind did that here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29110689)

There's a lot of splatbook and substitition use there; before using it to show that paladins are already powerful and don't need to be boosted, maybe you should check whether Roderick's group uses all the books required for that build.


and the entire paladin handbook is about playing a paladin right (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/08/paladins-handbook.html)

It gives some suggestions, but nothing that clearly indicates a particular tier. (The PHB-only build it gives is actually not that strong; other than Smite, I see nothing that a fighter with access to advanced mounts couldn't do better.)


A crusader is a Paladin who traded spells for martial arts prowess, not a barbarian who has some discipline. Refluffing doesnt fill in the missing hole of where the hell did our native of mount areat go?

So there's really no ToB class that focuses on doing large amounts of damage through a lack of control? If so, perhaps Roderick should create a custom style (probably bearing some similarities both to Stone Dragon and Tiger Claw) that fits the barbarian theme.

[toapat]

6 of them don't count because the full-BAB classes get them too.

As for the others, I doubt that it ends up being worth as much as full BAB plus maneuvers or spells.

There's a lot of splatbook and substitition use there; before using it to show that paladins are already powerful and don't need to be boosted, maybe you should check whether Roderick's group uses all the books required for that build.

It gives some suggestions, but nothing that clearly indicates a particular tier. (The PHB-only build it gives is actually not that strong; other than Smite, I see nothing that a fighter with access to advanced mounts couldn't do better.)

So there's really no ToB class that focuses on doing large amounts of damage through a lack of control? If so, perhaps Roderick should create a custom style (probably bearing some similarities both to Stone Dragon and Tiger Claw) that fits the barbarian theme.

It entirely depends on how you use those feats. Alot of feats can make alot of difference, expecially when you can buy manuevers as feats.

Tempest Stormwind shows A way to build an effective paladin, but without the mount, the Paladin Handbook doesnt have any hyperoptimized builds, but it goes through all the material for paladin and picks it appart, making it alot more useful in actually working a class, and neither of them have the Supermount paladin who replaces the PC with the NPC horse.

What is the actual reason asto why Barbarian is T4 and not T3?

[erikun]

Fighters, barbarians, and monks are replaced by the Tome of Battle's classes.
All classes gains Use Simple and Martial ranged weapons, like a normal figther. It just feels like feat tax otherwise.
Sword Sage can use the unarmed variant, including the Ki Strike feature (magical, alignment, adamantine).
Crusader loses the religious background fluff and the alignments restriction.
This should work, although I'm not familiar with the rules around giving Ki Strike to the Swordsage (should be fine). Giving them proficiency with ranged weapons is just fine, as they don't have any maneuvers to make much use of them.


Paladins and rangers gains a spell days/known progression like the bard's, and become spontaneous casters.
Paladins can learn spells from the cleric list, rangers can learn spells from the druid's list, and bards can learn spells from the wizard/sorcerer's list.
Paladins, rangers, and bards also drop the alignment restrictions, but keeping the deity alignment/spellcasting restrictions as usual.
As previously noted, this does increase their power quite a bit. Paladins going Clericzilla probably won't be a problem, as Clericzilla next to a Warblade or Crusader isn't that bad. Rangers getting Entangle and Wall of Thorns, or Bards getting all the Wizard goodies may make them a bit stronger than you'd intended.


Full casters (wizard, sorcerer, cleric, and druid) are removed from the setting, with the paladin/ranger/bard in their place.
Okay, that seems fine.


Rogues gains fighter's bonus feat at 1st and every even level (2nd, 4th, 6th, etc). Since he's the "normal" of the bunch (no super powered maneuvers or magic), he can be the "super normal" one.

This seems fine as well. Please note that if you opponents are primarily going to be humanoids and magical beasts, then rogues are a bit more reliable in the setting.

I will second that I'm sorry to see the Barbarian dropped. They do have a number of interesting options.


Instead of normal AC rules, I'll use Defense Bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm) and Armor as DR (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/armorAsDamageReduction.htm).
Armors will give DR based on the new table (just a bit similar to the original AC values). Maximum Dexterity Bonus will be increased. A new "Maximum Defense Bonus" column works just like dexterity, but affects the character's Defense Bonus, being usually twice the Dexterity Bonus (even if it shows values above the normal maximum Defense value). Shields will give a little better AC bonus, and it will count against touch attacks, but otherwise works as normal. "Energy" armor like Mage Armor works as normal, giving AC.
Magic enchancement both enchances the Damage Reduction value, and grants an Armor Bonus to AC. For example, a Scale Mail gives DR 4. A Scale mail +1 will give DR 5 and +1 to AC.

Table: Armor and Shields
{table=head]Armor|AC Bonus|Damage<br />Reduction|Maximum<br />Dex Bonus|Maximum<br />Defense Bonus|Armor Check<br /> Penalty|Arcane Spell<br />Failure Chance|Speed<br />(30ft/20ft)
Light Armor
Padded|0|1|10|20|0|5%|30ft/20ft
Leather|0|2|8|16|0|10%|30ft/20ft
Studded Leather|0|3|7|14|-1|15%|30ft/20ft
Chain shirt|0|4|6|12|-2|20%|30ft/20ft
Medium Armor
Hide|0|3|6|12|-3|20%|20ft/15ft
Scale mail|0|4|5|10|-4|25%|20ft/15ft
Chain mail|0|5|4|8|-5|30%|20ft/15ft
Breast plate|0|5|6|12|-4|25%|20ft/15ft
Heavy Armor
Splint mail|0|6|2|4|-7|40%|20ft/15ft
Banded mail|0|6|3|6|-6|35%|20ft/15ft
Half-plate|0|7|2|4|-7|40%|20ft/15ft
Full plate|0|8|3|6|-6|35%|20ft/15ft
Shields
Buckler|1|0|-|-|-1|5%|-
Shield, light|2|0|-|-|-1|5%|-
Shield, medium|3|0|-|-|-2|15%|-
Shield, tower|4|0|4|8|-10|50%|-[/table]

Your table is broken.

Also, Armor as DR tends to favor high-damage attacks over low-damage ones. Power attack and sneak attack, not to mention high-damage attackers like giants, tend to work far better with such a system. By contrast, two-weapon fighting and archery ends up quite a bit worse.


Characters can use Reserve Points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/reservePoints.htm) when not in battle. That, with all the healing spells and maneuvers means that characters don't need to worry so much with HP.
I've never played with Reserve Points, but they don't seem like they'd help all that much. Perhaps if the PCs can heal easily outside of battle it will be fine, but all this seems to do is double their HP.


Magic itens can't be normally bought or crafted, only found in treasure or special prizes/payment.
Players can still buy expendables, like potions and scrolls.
Rechargeable itens likes wands and staves can be ordered to be recharged at special NPC places.
This could work, or could leave the party woefully underprepared against an opponent they know they cannot fight.


One last thing to note: D&D tends to assume the party will have access to specific restoration options at specific levels. Monsters are set up assuming you can restore ability damage at 3rd level (Lesser Restoration), break curses at 5th level (Remove Curse), restore lost levels at 7th level (Restoration), raise dead allies at 9th level (Raise Dead), and so on. Without the party able to do such things - or even rely on paying an NPC to do such things - falling under these effects generally marks the character as good as dead. After all, it is kind of hard to play a character who cannot choose to act half the (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bestowCurse.htm) time (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/confusion.htm).

[Yitzi]

It entirely depends on how you use those feats. Alot of feats can make alot of difference

Indeed they can. But I find it hard to believe that the fighter is a superior combatant to the ToB races (and the new rogue is pretty comparable to the old fighter combat-wise; he does have sneak attack, but he also has lower BAB, hit points, and proficiencies.)


Tempest Stormwind shows A way to build an effective paladin, but without the mount, the Paladin Handbook doesnt have any hyperoptimized builds, but it goes through all the material for paladin and picks it appart, making it alot more useful in actually working a class, and neither of them have the Supermount paladin who replaces the PC with the NPC horse.

I'm not quite sure where you're ending one idea and starting the next there. If you rephrase (or even change appropriate commas to periods), I may be able to respond more appropriately.


What is the actual reason asto why Barbarian is T4 and not T3?

He's next to useless at anything other than combat.

[toapat]

Indeed they can. But I find it hard to believe that the fighter is a superior combatant to the ToB races (and the new rogue is pretty comparable to the old fighter combat-wise; he does have sneak attack, but he also has lower BAB, hit points, and proficiencies.)

This rogue can deal 30d6 damage in a round with a greatsword.

[Yitzi]

This rogue can deal 30d6 damage in a round with a greatsword.

In addition to your obvious assumption that he's level 20 (yes, 19 would work too), this (1) assumes he's flanking or has improved invisibility (either requires help from allies), (2) assumes he began his turn next to, or at most a 5' step away from, the enemy (quite a risky position for someone with a d6 hit die and (unless he spent feats on it) only light armor), and (3) assumes he can hit reliably with even his BAB +5 attack, or in other words that the enemy's AC at such a high level is under 25 (in a normal game) or 15 (in a no-magic-items game; due to the lack of buyable/craftable permanent magic items, this game will probably be closer to the latter.) (It also makes some other less absurd assumptions, such as that the enemy isn't undead and hasn't drunk a potion of Blur.)

Now, there are ways to get around or mitigate these problems with careful builds; an arcane trickster build can still hit a third iterative attack by level 20, can provide his own invisibility (and, if necessary, True Seeing), and can use Chill Touch for touch-attack sneak attacks, but that won't work as well in a no-wizard game, and certainly isn't a standard rogue build.

Note also that a sneak-attack-variant fighter can get 40d6 with the same methods; admittedly he doesn't get the bonus feats, but he does get far more durability. And nobody ever claims that that fighter variant is overpowered. The fact is, sneak attack really isn't all that great for combat, at least not as compared to full BAB and a good hit die.

[bobthe6th]

for magic items, I would suggest the Tome method. magic weapons scale, getting +1 to hit per 4 levels. perhaps set up legacy style weapons that also give a +1 equivalent two levels after the enhancement bonus each time...

for the tob... have you thought of using non standard disciplines? there are a lot of nice ones... on this forum.


as for the ranger... perhapce toss it's casting, favored enemy, and animal companion and add trap finding, evasion, and sneak attack?

[toapat]

as for the ranger... perhapce toss it's casting, favored enemy, and animal companion and add trap finding, evasion, and sneak attack?

so make the Thief Acrobat (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Thief-Acrobat_(3.5e_Class))?

[bobthe6th]

making a full variant in another thread...

[Yitzi]

as for the ranger... perhapce toss it's casting, favored enemy, and animal companion and add trap finding, evasion, and sneak attack?

Nah, that's a bad idea here. While as a general ranger remake something of the sort definitely holds promise, the ranger here is supposed to replace the druid, and that means it needs to have casting. If anything, the answer if it turns out to be overpowered lies in the opposite direction; remove its camouflage and hide in plain sight abilities, and it should be substantially less exploitable.

[Roderick_BR]

Wow, lots of stuff going on. Very good points too.

I guess the paladinzilla point is corevered.

Now, the rangerzilla may pose a problem, yes. I'm going through the druid's spell list to get an idea of what problems it can cause. I may get the idea to remove some of the ninja-stealth stuff. It works greatly without it.

@toapat: I don't think that giving a rogue fighter-only feats is that overpowered. He can get some classic strong combos, like ubercharger, but without the fighter's chassis (full BAB, d10 hit dice), it's not as powerful, and helps put him on level with TOB. Using only core, he'll be able to get weapon focus/specialization, dodge, and combat expertise. With some splatbooks, he'll be able to slide in between enemies, vanish from view, and deal devastating counterattacks, but then again, that's the feeling I'm going for. Meanwhile the warblade is dealing massive damage and flying everywhere, and the paladin will be going paladinzilla.
And the monsters won't be any weak too.

Also, I need paladins easier to play, if you need guides to build specific powerful builds, then it won't work for me.

Yeah, barbarian was a niche in itself, but warblades can fill that role without problem. Think Conan, that was just a barbarian for coming from "uncivilized lands", not for screaming and raging (only sometimes) and was damn good with a sword in hand.

@erikun: Darn, I keep fixing it, but the site messes tables when you edit them. Anyway, yes, this DR variation is powerful, but then again, the group will face some nasty monsters. I'm adding a "minimum 1dmg through", which won't make them invulnerable, and am checking some fixes for TWF.

Reserve points are just that, extra HP you can use to restore your "default" HP. Think of it as a freebie healing potion that is refilled everyday. You can't heal during combat, but once the party can stop to catch their breath, they can recover a bit to continue questing.

I'm giving a lot of power for the classes precisely for the magic items being less needed. They can still find and use it, they just can't custom-order it.

Loss of high level spells will spell doom a lot of times, yes, but some of them are just instant version of earlier ones, so as long as the party can survive and escape, they'll have the means to restove themselves, albeit slower.
For REAL strong effects, I can include these spells as rituals, doable by NPCs. Need to bring back an ally that fell in combat? Just rise him. An ally was absolutelly destroyed? It'll be a bit harder to bring him back than just "I cast True Ressurrection".

@bobthe6th
I was thinking about something like the Weapons of Legacy (except without spending feats/levels) so they can have a reliable weapon most of the campaign.
I'll be waiting for that variant too. Seems interesting. The idea does make me think of the Scout, that is already a ranger/rogue hybrid.

I see most of the problem here will be balancing what may be too overpowered, with what'll make the game actually harder.

[toapat]

@toapat: I don't think that giving a rogue fighter-only feats is that overpowered. He can get some classic strong combos, like ubercharger, but without the fighter's chassis (full BAB, d10 hit dice), it's not as powerful, and helps put him on level with TOB. Using only core, he'll be able to get weapon focus/specialization, dodge, and combat expertise. With some splatbooks, he'll be able to slide in between enemies, vanish from view, and deal devastating counterattacks, but then again, that's the feeling I'm going for. Meanwhile the warblade is dealing massive damage and flying everywhere, and the paladin will be going paladinzilla.
And the monsters won't be any weak too.

Also, I need paladins easier to play, if you need guides to build specific powerful builds, then it won't work for me.

Yeah, barbarian was a niche in itself, but warblades can fill that role without problem. Think Conan, that was just a barbarian for coming from "uncivilized lands", not for screaming and raging (only sometimes) and was damn good with a sword in hand.

@bobthe6th
I was thinking about something like the Weapons of Legacy (except without spending feats/levels) so they can have a reliable weapon most of the campaign.
I'll be waiting for that variant too. Seems interesting. The idea does make me think of the Scout, that is already a ranger/rogue hybrid.

I see most of the problem here will be balancing what may be too overpowered, with what'll make the game actually harder.

the point with paladin was just because it is seen as weak, doesnt mean it is, its just really hard and takes alot of min-maxing.

Ive got ya covered on Better weapons of Legacy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250436)