Build Advice: Arcane Ninja

[Elric VIII]

So, I'm making a Ninja Thrower that uses some minor spellcasting. The tentative build is Rogue/Human Paragon 3/Targeteer Fighter 1/Wizard 1/Invisible Eye Monk 1/Unseen Seer 10/Master Thrower 1/Arcane Trickster 2. I know this doesn't get 9th level spells, but I only wase 1 level on Wizard, itself, and I'm ahead of a Bard for spellcasting. So I figure this is a viable character from a total caster level standpoint.

Detailed Build:
{table=head]Level | Class | Feats
1| Rogue 1 | Able Learner, Craven, PBS, Precise Shot
2| Targeteer Fighter 1* | EWP:Shuriken (free)
3| Wizard 1 | Weapon Focus (Shuriken), Dead Eye
4| Human Paragon 1 | -
5| Invisible Eye Monk 1 | Combat Reflexes (free)
6| Unseen Seer 1 | Practiced Spellcaster
7| Unseen Seer 2 | -
8| Master Thrower 1 | -
9| Human Paragon 2 | Arcane Thesis (Hunter's Eye), Ranged Threat**
10| Unseen Seer 3 | -
11| Unseen Seer 4 | -
12| Unseen Seer 5 | Quicken Spell
13| Unseen Seer 6 | -
14| Unseen Seer 7 | -
15| Unseen Seer 8 | Persistent Spell
16| Unseen Seer 9 | -
17| Unseen Seer 10 | -
18| Human Paragon 3 | Easy Metamagic: Persistent Spell
19| Arcane Trickster 1| -
20| Arcane Trickster 2| -
[/table]
*Trades Fighter Bonus feat for Dex to damage for ranged weapons, cannot apply Str to thrown weapons. (Dr310)
**Allows me to threaten 15ft with ranged weapons, but only 1 ranged AoO per round. (Dr350)


I plan to use the basic gish spells (Bite of X, Heart of X, GMW, Hunter's Eye, etc) along with some like Nightstalker Transformation and ninja-esque spells like Mirror Image, (Greater/Superior) Invisibility, and Dimension Door. I will also grab one of the SA immunity bypassing spells that isn't on the Wizard list.Does anyone know of any spells that would be particularly beneficial to a ranged gish?

I will also be uing Find the Gap in place of Wraithstrike (since that works only for melee attacks). Is there a better spell to do this?

I am on the fence about the feat Ranged Threat. As a Wizard I have access to invisibility and other SA-facilitating spells, but AFAIK, there are less things immune to flanking than those that have True Sight/See Invisible. Not taking this will free up 2 feat slots. What are your opinions on this?

I might just take Darkstalker and boost my hide check (in place of Ranged Threat). Is there a way to guarantee a full attack with SA using hide and spells, against something with see invisibility/true seeing?

Because of Unsees Seer's divination spell power ability, my non-divination CL will be lower than my HD. Is there an addtional CL booster like Practiced Spellcaster that I can use?

Thanks.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Using attack spells to sneak attack with is decidedly sub-par. Most of the spells you list are either unnecessary for a ranged Gish, or can be much more easily obtained in other ways.

Mirror Image can be obtained via a Wand and Use Magic Device.

Unseen Seer reduces your caster level for any spell you'd actually want to use.

Everything you've asked, a Swordsage with minimal rogue dip can do out of the book, if he has a heavy emphasis on Shadow Hand.

As far as applying your sneak attack at range, yes there is. You already started to get it. Master Thrower... Sneaky Shot. Congratulations, your opponent is denied dex bonus for the attack. Not declared flat-footed, which any barbarian can shrug off, but flat out denied dex bonus to AC. Since skill checks are a part of the action you are taking, they effectively take no time at all, so you can Sneaky Shot every throw. Combine with Weak Spot, which negates the need for Wraithstrike, for good times.

For extra fun, Bloodstorm Blade lets you treat all thrown attacks as melee atacks, which means initiating maneuvers through them, and gives you free returning.

[Elric VIII]

Using attack spells to sneak attack with is decidedly sub-par. Most of the spells you list are either unnecessary for a ranged Gish, or can be much more easily obtained in other ways.

Oh, I'm going to be using Shuriken to attack, not spells. The only Bite of X I would use is the Wererat, since I get to add dex to damage 2-3 times (even with palm throw).

Also, I just checked Nightstalker Transformation, it prevents spellcasting, so ignore that.


Mirror Image can be obtained via a Wand and Use Magic Device.

You are correct. That was just an example, though.


Unseen Seer reduces your caster level for any spell you'd actually want to use.

Correct again. This could (potentially) be a problem with buffs, so I was hoping for something to counteract it, in addition to Practiced Spellcaster. I may just vary the ratio of Unseen Seer:Arcane Trickster levels. And the BAB loss isn't going to matter much. Although, I forgot to mention that I think I have to use fractional BAB to get everything to work.


Everything you've asked, a Swordsage with minimal rogue dip can do out of the book, if he has a heavy emphasis on Shadow Hand.

And do things the easy way? :smallbiggrin:


As far as applying your sneak attack at range, yes there is. You already started to get it. Master Thrower... Sneaky Shot. Congratulations, your opponent is denied dex bonus for the attack. Not declared flat-footed, which any barbarian can shrug off, but flat out denied dex bonus to AC. Since skill checks are a part of the action you are taking, they effectively take no time at all, so you can Sneaky Shot every throw. Combine with Weak Spot, which negates the need for Wraithstrike, for good times.

Actaully, Sneaky Shot requires a move action, specifically. And Uncanny Dodge prevents loss of Dex to AC, but not the flat-footed condition. I was considering Weak Spot, but the 3 mid levels of MT seem less than useful (although trip shot might be situationally useful).


For extra fun, Bloodstorm Blade lets you treat all thrown attacks as melee atacks, which means initiating maneuvers through them, and gives you free returning.

That's really cool for a thrower, a 2 level (IIRC) dip of that might not be a bad idea.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

And do things the easy way? :smallbiggrin:Why not?



Actaully, Sneaky Shot requires a move action, specifically. And Uncanny Dodge prevents loss of Dex to AC, but not the flat-footed condition. I was considering Weak Spot, but the 3 mid levels of MT seem less than useful (although trip shot might be situationally useful).Sorry, but Uncanny Dodge lets you retain dex bonus while flat-footed. That's all it does. Denying dex bonus to AC through something like Sneaky Shot bypasses it entirely.

You are, however, correct about Sneaky Shot explicitly calling out a move action. >.>

The feat Clarion Call explicitly declares someone Flanked, which bypasses Improved Uncanny Dodge since it just keeps you from normally being able to flank unless you're a better rogue than they are a whatever, instead of making them immune to the condition. It only requires a flat DC20 Intimidate check. Look it up.



That's really cool for a thrower, a 2 level (IIRC) dip of that might not be a bad idea.

Yea, save you on the price of a whole pile of magic items when you only need a couple.

Alternately, you may wish to consider something like Beguiler for your casting side. It's got most of the spells you need. About the only thing you don't get that you want is Sneak Attack.

How about something like: Beguiler9/Swordsage2/Arcane Trickster9? You still get 9th level spells, all the casting you want, the stance Assassin's Stance gives you the +2d6 Sneak Attack you need for AT, then you get spellcasting and sneak attack as well as making opponents flat-footed.

If you don't like that, you can always go: Rogue1/Beguiler6/Spellthief1/Arcane Trickster10/Beguiler2. 18/20 casting, so you get 9th level spells. You get all the 'ninja' spells you want, with some utility thrown in for good measure. You end up with a decent BAB, 7d6 Sneak Attack, and become quite possibly one of the deadliest sneaks around.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Factotum..

[Dusk Eclipse]

If you can somehow get access to ranger spells, there are some really neat ranged spells in Champions of Ruin (though the may only affect bows and arrow, can't check cause I am AFB). So Chameleon might work to get those tasty spells.

Also if you are using Shurikens I can't reccomend you enough to give Fire Shuriken (CArc and SC) a good look, sure 3d6 non-scaling fire damage might not look good and you only get 1/3 CL ;but if you read carefully it is a Conjuration [Creation] spell with an Instant duration... so you can metamagic this babies a bit (Fell drain and either searing or energy sub would be my choices) and stockpile on them on your downtime.

[eggs]

Cloud of Knives is awesome for a Ranged Gish (extra attacks are always awesome). Girallon's Blessing works very nicely with multiweapon throwers. With Outsider type, Arrow Demon polymorphs are also ridiculous.

Don't forget that these spells share with the familiar. Especially if you can get it the Outsider type. In that vein, Nightstalker's transformation is still awesome (don't take it yourself; give them to your Arrow Demoned, Blinking/Greater Invisibilitied, multi-Cloud of Knived-familiar).

Spell Matrices are boring, but getting big batches of buffs out at once is basically how Unseen Seer builds usually work, so the spells are almost always worth prepping.

Re: Touch attacks: As a caster, it's not much trouble to whip up a bunch of flasks of acid, holy water or alchemist's [fire/lightning/whatever].

EDIT:
On full attacks from hiding, Total Concealment obviates the need for a hide check, so if you can outright prevent opponents from seeing you, you shouldn't need to waste actions rehiding. Ebon Eyes + Blacklight + Invisible Spelled Obscuring Mist will cover most targets without Ebon Eyes effects of their own. (It's commonly available, but few pregen enemies or stock monsters will have it without the DM's custom-tailoring.)

[Elric VIII]

I had been thinking about Chameleon, actually. The Ranger spells won't work, since they specifically mention arrows/bolts, but I'm sure there are other good spells out there. I figure I will use some combination of Factotum, Fighter, and Monk, with 5 levels of Master Thrower and 10 of Chameleon. It will look like Stuff 5/Chameleon 3/Master Thrower 5/Chameleon 7.

I will get my SA from crafting wands, using the floating feat.

I'm going to look over the various Assassin, Ranger, etc spells and see what I can find that is good. I would love suggestions, as well (Trapsmith's level 1 haste is pretty good). TeflammarShadowlord has some nice ones, too. I think I can get some good stuff just looking through my casting PrC guide.

[Elric VIII]

I just thought of a few things regarding Chameleon. I notice that at level 1 it can, potentially, cast second level spells with a CL of only 2. Does this mean that I can create 2nd level wands with a CL of 2 as well?