Dvati/Battle Dancer/Generic Questions

[Pandyman]

Ok, so I have an idea that I want to employ in my future campaign. It's simple, easy, and just an overall bad idea. I want to combine the low health of the Dvati with the flavor of the low tier Battle Dancer class.

The original plan was 2 Battle Dancer/ 3 Swashbuckler/ 10 Dervish

My DM has oked me to change Insightful Strike's source from Intelligence to Charisma, though I could always just bypass that and get the Slippers of Battledancing from the DMG II later on. I have a few things that I would like to ask for others' opinions for, some may have easier answers than others. As such, despite the Dervish guides out there that say to do the opposite, this is heavily reliant on Charisma.

1. Each of my Dvati's bodies is going to battle in an Einhander-type style, which means they will be wielding a sword in their main hand and nothing in their off hand. What are the rules for unarmed strikes when it comes to Two weapon fighting? If my character strikes with his sword, would he take the regular minuses for striking with his offhand fist? (I assumed not since it's a natural weapon, but I wasn't 100% sure)I just realized how dumb this question seems. >.>

2. I want to capture the flavor of performing various Capoeira type dance moves as a combat style, and these classes seemed to fit the basic idea i wanted (though swashbuckler was a stretch). I'm planning on using this character in a campaign with a bunch of new people, so doing something silly like druid/planar shepherd wouldn't get by my DM this time(lol). Either way, are there any classes I should replace in my current plan to get better results, or am I doomed by my own gimpy concept? I'm trying to avoid tome of battle classes, if I can.

3. What're the skill checks I'm gonna make in regular combat to do handstands, spinning headstands, and stuff like that and avoid taking attacks of opportunity. I've been playing for years and never made checks like this for rp sake. Do you think I could get away with just tumble checks, or would there be more checks needed to doing all these fancy Flippy-do-dahs?

4. Any suggestions towards a Dvati based character are fine as well, though I've seen the other Dvati threads so I already know that FoP and Swordsage are good without any research. Feel free to suggest things that're outside the box.

(To help people with suggestions, Dvati are a race of creatures that have two bodies and one soul from Dragon Magazines(I'm making specific use of the one written in the compendium). They share a class and level as if they were one character. When casting spells both bodies have to focus on that particular spell, but each body can melee as a separate individual. They get flanking and aiding another benefits.

They can get an additional +1 bonus to attack or AC against a target by successfully using a song based ability, and so long as both bodies are on the same plane they can transfer spell effects between bodies. Mind-affecting spells affect both bodies regardless. The main reason that one might not melee with them is that their dice rolls for hp are split between the two bodies. Say that a Dvati rolls a 10 for their first level of health and has a +2 Con Modifier, each body has 7 health. The die result (10) is split between the bodies and then each body applies their Con Mod as usual.)


5. >.> I know this is a lot of questions for a single thread, so I apologize.

[Bloodgruve]

1. This will require a full attack action and the unarmed attack is treated as a light weapon. Battle Dancer gives you Imp Unarmed Strike so you won't take AOO's. Battle Dancer does not give you TWF so you'll take -4/-8 using an off hand unarmed strike unless you take the feat.

2. These seem like good classes to fit your concept. I believe unarmed attacks can be made with any part of the body, unless that is just a monk thing. So kick's are in. Snap Kick feat could be fun here.

3. Tumble should cover it. Maybe balance and perform though.

4. You may want to look at psionic Share Pain and Vigor with a psicrystal to mitigate the 50% hit point per twin issue or pump Con up so each gets the bonus. Also, the battle dancer has a lot of promise but it needs a dance fix. I would ask my DM if I could do some different stuff with perform checks and combat maneuvers, maybe allow some different dance steps with better perform checks. This (http://www.35privatesanctuary.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=264:0137-private-sanctuary&catid=13:35-private-sanctuary&Itemid=33) is an interesting discussion on Battledancer.

GL
Blood~

[Pandyman]

1. Hmm, well I was afraid of that, but that's a quick feat fix. I'll have to also look into taking Versatile Unarmed Strike to make them slashing weapons, but i with the 4 feats for Dervish, plus TWF, and superior unarmed strike even with flaws i end up with all my feats up til level 9. Maybe a fighter dip would benefit me more than the swashbuckler at low levels.

2. Yeah, that's what i thought when looking at the classes themselves. They looked like they fit into my plans pretty well. any of those extra feats would be something for later fights though.

3. Ok, cool that's kinda what I was expecting, and the tumble and dance checks will already get covered when I'm moving through threatened and occupied squares as a dervish.

4. Yeah, I was looking into things like that. It's a rather large weakness for a melee character, but I was on a similar mind set about using a share pain and vigor with psicrystals.

Thanks for the input. :smallwink:

[Bloodgruve]

I keep thinking of the Kid n' Play (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFSyBBglmpI) team dance moves, you could have some fun with this..

Kidding aside, I personally like skill checks that give combat bonuses like Knowledge Devotion and Iaijutsu Focus. Battledancer could have more appeal if it's dances were reworked like that. Simple +d6's to damage with improving skill check or even different moves that create different effects.

Also, If you're going Cha based Marshal 1 or 2 and Bards Snowflake Wardance could come in handy.

GL
Blood~

[animewatcha]

I can't remember the kingdoms of kalamar book ( third party, but with some kind of WOTC logo seal of approval thinger I don't know the details ) has the Iron Legs feat. Some benefits on running, but mainly bonus of perform dance checks ( IIRC ) and double str mod on kick-based unarmed attacks ( definately remember this ). See if you can get it approved.

[Pandyman]

yeah, snowflake wardance was one of the things i was looking at, but i didn't know if i'd get enough use out of it without having a bard-like class or a bard-like dip.

But yeah, my DM will pretty much allow any feats, classes, etc as long as it's a published source. So the Iron Legs feat from Kingdoms of Kalamar is free game. All the Dragon mags are also allowed, regardless of how OP it is. I just don't think I'll get much use out of running for an hour and resting 10 minutes to bypass fatigue.

Edit: I also need to fill my last 5 levels with something. Right now i have a heavy Dex/Cha reliance, so I still need to decide something to tack on from 16-20/

[Bloodgruve]

I think Iron Heart Surge from the Warblade will dismiss fatigue. If you dip Warblade at 9th level you can grab it. It requires initiator level 5.

Blood~

[Pandyman]

I'm not too worried about Fatigue, I'm more worried about damage. Especially since I only have a 2-3 level dip in a class that boosts fist Damage. Now I know i can get Superior Unarmed Strike or a Monk's Belt, but I think a class that boosts fist damage would help me. Maybe Tattoo Monk since it relies on Charisma. I kinda made Wisdom my dump stat, so anything wisdom based isn't gonna do too well. Maybe at later levels Risen Martyr would be cool, though it won't help my damage.

[Bloodgruve]

Does Einhander fit this build? It fits well thematically with swashbuckler but does swashbuckler fit the Capoeira style character?

Do you want to use Cha as your main stat and get SAD?

Blood~

[Pandyman]

Einhander does fit, after you successfully strike an opponent you can get a +2 to all tumble checks. It works directly with the Dervish class and my need to tumble after every attack to avoid AoO. I'm trying to get as close to SAD as possible. With my current plan I'll have charisma for attack, damage, and AC. Though, if there is a better class than Swashbuckler, I'm willing to replace it in my build. Right now I'm making use of the free finesse, since charisma to attack is near impossible to achieve at lower levels and my dex is higher than my strength.

I'm mainly looking for ways to increase my damage, by either adding my charisma to my damage rolls or playing off the Dervish's need to move to get it's bonus' during the dervish dance. I have to look it up but i think Skirmisher would fit with the having to move between attacks.

EDIT: or i could take the Deft Defense Feat from the Deft Fighter book, take away my Battle Dancer dip. Go 3 Swashbuckler, 2 Fighter, 10 Dervish, 5 Scout. With no alterations to Swashbuckler, I'll get int to my AC and damage, I'll get the dervish bonus to Attack and damage, and I'll get the skirmish bonus to my attacks I believe. And it would just be skill checks to say i'm using Capoeira in combat. What do you think? Ah, dang it, i forgot that this would make me lose my unarmed attack and damage.

[Bloodgruve]

If you want to take full advantage of the twin characters and dervish you want to get a lot of attacks with a lot of bonuses.

Crescent Knives from Dragon Mag 275 give you two attack rolls per attack which means you can add stuff like Str bonus, Sneak Attack, Inspire Courage and other stuff per roll. If you went Fighter2/Rogue3/DervishX with Crescent knives and TWF you'd have 8 rolls across both twins as soon as you hit Dervish 1 which equates to 16d6+(8xStrBonus)+8d3 per round if all your attacks land. You always have a flanking buddy and you get flanking bonuses on top. Then add Craven feat when you can for damage equal to your character level per attack also. Substitute Psychic Warrior4 in if you want Share Pain, Vigor and Psi Chrystal.

GL
Blood

[ThiagoMartell]

The fun thing about crescent knives is that capoeira was created to fight with either razors tied to your feet or dual machetes.

[Bloodgruve]

EDIT: or i could take the Deft Defense Feat from the Deft Fighter book, take away my Battle Dancer dip. Go 3 Swashbuckler, 2 Fighter, 10 Dervish, 5 Scout. With no alterations to Swashbuckler, I'll get int to my AC and damage, I'll get the dervish bonus to Attack and damage, and I'll get the skirmish bonus to my attacks I believe. And it would just be skill checks to say i'm using Capoeira in combat. What do you think? Ah, dang it, i forgot that this would make me lose my unarmed attack and damage.

You could enter Dervish at 8th level by taking Scout7 with the 4 pre req feats for Dervish plus TWF and EWP Crescent Knives. You get spring attack at Dervish 3 so thats good. Scout gets Tumble and a crap load of skills so you easily meed Dervish pre req's. The Capoeira at this point is all flavor?

*Strike that, Skirmish is no good for melee characters because the move stops you from getting a full attack. You want Sneak Attack or something else for adding damage as a melee. Unless you are ok with only a single standard action per twin. Then you have no need for TWF or unarmed damage.

Now.. I think what you're looking for is Binder1 + Improved Binding feat + Paimon vestige. This gives you Dance of Death 1/5 rounds instead of /day with Dervish. Weap Finesse with Short Sword and Dagger, +4 Dex, +4 Tumble and Dance, Uncanny Dodge and Whirlwind Attack all for 1 level and 1 feat. It also gives you the ability to bind any 1st - 3rd level vestige daily if you need a change. How does Binder work with the twins? How does Dance of Death work with the twins? No idea :P Dance of Death is in all ways better than Dervish Dance except that you can't stack the Dervish abilities on it.

GL
Blood~

[Pandyman]

Isn't Craven a limited addition to sneak attacks? If you can get pounce, you can make the 10 foot adjustment instead of a 5 foot adjustment and still get a full attack with skirmish.

Each body can bind with a different vestige I believe, in the same way each body can possess in the Fiend of Possession PrC. I'd have to read the text though. But i disagree, Dance of death only allows you to make 1 attack to each individual enemy you move past, which means that you most likely won't kill them. Dervish dance allows you to make a full attack on a target while tumbling around them, and I'm a firm believer that killing 1-2 is better than pissing off multiple targets with a single attack.

Add in acrobatic strike for a near constant +4 to attacks, with all the tumbling. I feel that you get much more use from Dervish Dance than Dance of Death when you get to higher levels due to the extended duration and multiple uses. But yeah, at this point the capoeira would be all flavor.

The benefit of not picking up scout until later for melee, is that you can pick up magical items that replicate pounce or permanently give you pounce. This means you'll get the skirmish damage for every full attack.

Revised idea. 2 Fighter: Pugilist Variant/3 Swashbuckler/1 Fist of the Forest/10 Dervish/4 Scout
Feats: Imp. Unarmed (fighter Variant), Endurance (Fighter Variant), TWF(Fighter Bonus Feat), Deft Defense (Fighter Bonus Feat), Great Fortitude (1st level), Combat Expertise (Flaw), Expeditious Dodge (Flaw), Weapon Focus(Scimitar) (3rd level), Weapon Finesse (Swashbuckler), Mobility (6th level), Acrobatic Strike (9th level), Single Blade Style (12th Level), Leadership (15th Level), Craven (18th Level, if my dm oks its use for skirmish)

[Bloodgruve]

Bah, I missed the part where Dervish Dance works for 1rd/2DanceRanks. I thought it was one round and you can double back on opponents... I take it back, Dervish Dance is better than Dance of Death.

You could look at Lion Spirit Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian1 for pounce and some extra attacks. If you're using Dervish Dance as a main attack mode then Skirmish will work well after you move the initial 10' I believe.

Iron Heart Surge would take away the Fatigue which you could get with martial study.

GL
Blood~

[Pandyman]

I'll figure something out to get pounce, there's a whole list of ways to do it. like DC 40 Tumble Check (10 ft step, Oriental Adventures).