Because Dragons That's Why

[willpell]

Today I made up a Copper Dragon for the first time, and found myself confuzzled. Why is it that a copper wyrmling gets a +2 Level Adjustment, while a Black Dragon of the same HD (being a couple years older since they hatch smaller) gets a +3? The two are pretty much identical except that the Black can swim, sneak, and breathe underwater while the Copper can jump, lie convincingly, and climb on stone walls. But the copper has an extra breath-weapon option, plus metallic dragons live longer (not that this matters much in game terms), and being Good means they're better able to integrate both into the society of the game and specifically a party of player characters. So why exactly does the Black get a higher LA, when playing it is more difficult and thus should be rewarded rather than punished?

[Reaver225]

plus metallic dragons live longer (not that this matters much in game terms), Actually living a shorter life would mean it rises in age dragon age category faster and so changes from a wyrmling to a Great Wyrm that much faster. In an all-dragon game for example this matters quite a bit.

Not sure if that alone is enough for a +1 LA but yes, that is actually a slight advantage.

[ThiagoMartell]

Wyrmling Copper Dragon: Con +2, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +2, 5 HD, Tiny, immune to acid, spider climb, +4 natural armor, LA +2

Wyrmling Black Dragon: Con +2, Int -2, Cha -2, 4 HD, Tiny, immune to acid, water breathing, +3 natural armor, LA +3

Copper dragon seems better in every way. Yeah, that's pretty weird.

[willpell]

The only thing I can think of that might be an overall advantage to the black is its ability to function underwater, which is potentially a fairly large advantage and probably was the reason for the LA. However it's fairly campaign-specific, so I'm not sure it was fair for them to work it into the mechanics in such a way; the GM can just set the campaign inland and the advantage largely disappears, leaving the black dragon shafted compared to his copper peer.


Actually living a shorter life would mean it rises in age dragon age category faster and so changes from a wyrmling to a Great Wyrm that much faster. In an all-dragon game for example this matters quite a bit.

The table for dragon PC advancement in Draconomicon would appear to disagree with you. Don't know about Great Wyrm since that would require epic levels (at least), but at least at levels 1-20 there are no real differences in aging between chromatic and metallic dragons of similar age ranges. Blacks and coppers both start at ECL 7 when they're hatched; the copper reaches ECL 20 three years sooner than the black, despite its lifespan being double. They both become Very Young at 6, Young at 16 (ah, I was Young once), and Juvenile at 26 (alas, I was this too). Blues and bronzes are similarly close together.

[Ashtagon]

Black dragons have swim speed and breathe underwater. That's basically flight but underwater in practical terms.

Someone upthread noted that away from water, that's not a big deal. But guess what? Copper dragons live in "warm hill", where being aquatic is irrelevant. Black dragons live in warm marshes, where relevant ability is relevant. Sure, take them away from their wetlands and they are underpowered for their CR, but a GM who pays attention to the environment line of the statblock shouldn't put them down away from wetlands unless there's a story behind that placement.

[ThiagoMartell]

Black dragons have swim speed and breathe underwater. That's basically flight but underwater in practical terms.

Someone upthread noted that away from water, that's not a big deal. But guess what? Copper dragons live in "warm hill", where being aquatic is irrelevant. Black dragons live in warm marshes, where relevant ability is relevant. Sure, take them away from their wetlands and they are underpowered for their CR, but a GM who pays attention to the environment line of the statblock shouldn't put them down away from wetlands unless there's a story behind that placement.

We're talking about LA, not CR.

[Malimar]

I was going to say "Even with LA, that makes sense, water-breathing and a swim speed can be a very powerful ability in a mostly aquatic campaign". But then I remembered the line somewhere suggesting that, in a mostly aquatic campaign, aquatic creatures should be given an extra +1 on top of their listed LA anyway.

So I got nothin'.

[willpell]

Probably where the Black hatchling (ECL 7 with 4 HD is going to have the biggest advantage over the Copper hatchling (ECL 7 with 5 HD) is not going to be in a mostly-aquatic campaign - where the Copper will not be in the first place, unless the DM has planned around the presence or absence of water-breathing ability - but rather one where water is a fairly minor feature which grants the black dragon special advantages that the copper doesn't have. For instance, in a game where the characters are raiding a castle next to a lake, the black dragon can hide in the lake without having to come up for air and without being devoid of its breath weapon in case something attacks it down there.

Whether scenarios like this one come up often enough to justify the LA, that I don't know.

[Ashtagon]

We're talking about LA, not CR.

My point stands.

[Zale]

My point stands.

So, waterbreathing makes up for having worse stats, lower HD and natural armor?

And still be worth an extra LA slapped ontop of it?

[ThiagoMartell]

My point stands.

Read up on Savage Species and/or Stormwrack, where it is mentioned that in aquatic campaigns creatures with waterbreathing should get an LA bump.

[willpell]

My point stands.

It kinda doesn't.


Someone upthread noted that away from water, that's not a big deal. But guess what? Copper dragons live in "warm hill", where being aquatic is irrelevant. Black dragons live in warm marshes, where relevant ability is relevant. Sure, take them away from their wetlands and they are underpowered for their CR, but a GM who pays attention to the environment line of the statblock shouldn't put them down away from wetlands unless there's a story behind that placement.

The story behind that placement is "the dragon is a PC". As a result, he is nigh-guaranteed to be found in warm hills sometimes and in warm marshes other times, to say nothing of cold hills, temperate marshes, warm mountains, cold plains, temperate cities, extraplanar forests, underground, in the Astral Plane, and everywhere else. Ergo, while the ability to function unimpeded in an often-inconvenient environment can be handy, it's not something you can count on to apply at all times. The question remains open - if a just-hatched copper and a just-hatched black are adventuring together, will the black be glad of her water-breathing as often as the copper is glad of his extra HD, which grants him higher BAB, natch armor, more skills, and a shorter wait until his next feat and attribute bonus?

(If the choice was between 3 HD and 4, this would be slightly less clear, since you gain an attribute bonus at 4 if you didn't start there. However the only dragon which benefits from that fact is the white, whose stats are tanked in the first place according to the MM.)

[KillianHawkeye]

It's because Black Dragons are cooler. Or because WotC didn't want you to play as one.

[Amoren]

Clearly a level adjustment is needed because of the usually evil alignment. Can't have you running around without being bound by the terms of your alignment, after all! That clearly deserves an effective character level.

[Vknight]

Its a limiter to people so as to not play a usually evil race and to make the Copper have a greater advantage to the Black Dragon, for when you play as one or make one for a campaign

[QuidEst]

I would talk to the DM if you want to play a black dragon instead. The two seem comparable. An extra breath weapon is handy so much more often, and bluff is nice. Just play nice and don't abuse the water breathing to the point where it is worth LA +1.

If you don't want to play one, just chalk it up to "WotC does silly things" along with so many other things.

[Yawgmoth]

It's because LA was assigned completely arbitrarily to begin with based on how much the writer hated that race. Specifically, the guy who wrote the LA rules has admitted that he doesn't think anyone should be allowed to play any race except human, dwarf, and elf; ergo, he intentionally made the rules terrible so people who tried would be "appropriately punished". I wish I was making this up, but I remember this because it annoyed me that much.

Basically if you want to have an actual balanced party with monsters, you're gonna have to do the work on your own because the current LA rules were made to be a trap option from the get-go.

[Lord_Gareth]

It's because LA was assigned completely arbitrarily to begin with based on how much the writer hated that race. Specifically, the guy who wrote the LA rules has admitted that he doesn't think anyone should be allowed to play any race except human, dwarf, and elf; ergo, he intentionally made the rules terrible so people who tried would be "appropriately punished". I wish I was making this up, but I remember this because it annoyed me that much.

Basically if you want to have an actual balanced party with monsters, you're gonna have to do the work on your own because the current LA rules were made to be a trap option from the get-go.

That would explain how tieflings got so screwed.

[Amoren]

It's because LA was assigned completely arbitrarily to begin with based on how much the writer hated that race. Specifically, the guy who wrote the LA rules has admitted that he doesn't think anyone should be allowed to play any race except human, dwarf, and elf; ergo, he intentionally made the rules terrible so people who tried would be "appropriately punished". I wish I was making this up, but I remember this because it annoyed me that much.

Basically if you want to have an actual balanced party with monsters, you're gonna have to do the work on your own because the current LA rules were made to be a trap option from the get-go.

Huh... Well, to be fair, the effective character level does service (somewhat), and work well with the level buy off variant (that must have been another writers 'fix'). You just have to work out what would be a good level for what each monster race gets.

Some work out even without LA buy off. Marrulurk and Nazathune (or whatever) rakshasa both make good rogue analogues for those of their effective level, for example, and are probably a good indication of the system working as it should. O.o