Great crossbow help

[Biotroll]

So, my DM told us to prepare for the worst and make backup characters after our last gaming session. Seems we made a mistake somewhere. :smalltongue: Not that I want to part with my warforged mom, but oh well, better be prepared.

I was thinking of making crossbowman, so I looked up some handbooks, but most of them are trying to make a crossbow into a machinegun (pewpewpew!), which isn't the style I'm looking for. I would prefer making just one shot per round, but making it count. Great crossbow is probably going to be my weapon of choice, so I'm seeking some help with this kind of build.

I know I saw some thread about this idea before, but my search skill fails me. I just remember it was centred about making critical hits.

So, any idea where to find that old thread or what to do? Sizing up strikes me as good idea, but it probably won't be enough. Character starts at lvl10, it's going to be in eberron settings, but should be open, except dragon magazines.

[Spiryt]

You will probably really need homebrew, because as of officials rules, crossbows have nothing on composite bows, save tiny bit of range, I guess....

Here's nice example:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171229&highlight=crossbow

Generally giving crossbows option to be 'composite' (ugh) so add Strenght bonus, but multiplied (by 1.5 or 2 times) is quite elegant and balanced.

More potent shots, but less attack still.

[Khatoblepas]

I'm not sure you're going to be able to get enough oomph out of a single bolt at level 10. But...

Wardblade 5/Deepwood Sniper X (3.0 but hands down the best PrC in the world for archers) is going to be necessary. Get some Strongarm Bracers and a bigger Great Crossbow to up the amount of base damage it does. Blood in the Water stance for taking advantage of the wicked 15-20/x4 damage you're going to be dealing out. Get some static bonuses like Crossbow Sniper (1/2 Dex to dmg), some way of reloading quickly (Ghostly Reload spell, Rapid Reload etc etc) and you'll be set. Add in some Tiger Claw manuevers (like the Mongoose boosts) and you'll get more attacks per round to fire this crazy thing. I'm not sure how good this build would be, but it's as best as I can do.

Cheesier, less likely to be legal: Take the Titan Bloodline and an Aptitude Gargantuan Great Crossbow, still do the above.

Not what you want, but interesting: Artificer with Launch Bolt wands (the material component: a collossal crossbow bolt). Twinned, Repeating metamagic on them means you're throwing out 6d8 sharpened tree trunks about four times a round. Could be useful for modelling Sargent Detritus' crossbow. You can still have other wands so you can get past Wind Wall with your "flaming arrows", and still be just as effective. Launch Bolt is a cantrip and thus, the wands you make out of it are really cheap.

[Kulture]

Great crossbow, see if you can make it repeating, since you're burning a feat anyway.
Mod it with triple-threat from Eberron torn asunder so you get 3 attacks for every pull of the trigger, using serrated, laminated, diamond-wheted penetrator bolts (most detailed in the same book) so your threat range with keen is 11+ with a x4 critical.
Focused shot from PF APG allows you to add intellect to ranged damage, dead eye lets you add dex, crossbow sniper 1/2 dex, perfect shot (torn asunder version) lets you add dex again at the cost of strength bonus.

Always mount an oil reservoir, hidden compartment and a wand chamber.

Store this behemoth inside a glove of the master strategist which combines the aspects of gloves of true striking with gloves of storing for the price of the former alone.

Want to add int to damage again? Get a level in PF alchemist and tip all the bolts with an alchemical warhead, allowing you to add int under splash damage rules.

Also mount a gnomish crossbow scope from AEG.

If you get Zen archer monk level 3 from PF and take kung fu genius you can also use Int to hit, making alchemist a monstrously good sniper, even if you opt to go bombs rather than SA, since power shot lets you tip your bolts with bombs, circumventing the usual range problems encountered with the usual sniper builds.

Each pull of the trigger now nets you 3 bolts, each doing around 2d8+2.5xDEX+2xINT+SA+alchemical charge with a 50% crit chance with a X4 multiplier.

With this build I've worked out that you can, with the true strike ability of the gloves, get a chance of killing the Tarrasque, in the surprise round, at level 5, assuming you can tune a character en par with mine and I'm not the best at optimization.

Did I mention that on a crit those bolts pierce ranks?

[Telok]

Targeteer is a Dragon Magazine fighter substitution class. A few levels and then going rogue for sneak attack (feat: Crossbow Sniper) can do something like what you describe.

[Curmudgeon]

Arrows and bolts are deflected upward and miss, while any other normal ranged weapon passing through the wall has a 30% miss chance. (A giant-thrown boulder, a siege engine projectile, and other massive ranged weapons are not affected.)
Siege Engines

Ballista: A ballista is essentially a Huge heavy crossbow fixed in place. You'll want to get your DM to agree that great crossbows break into "siege engine projectile" territory at size Large so you can shoot through Wind Walls. A standard heavy crossbow does 1d10 damage at Medium size. Using Table 2–2: Increasing Weapon Damage by Size (Dungeon Master's Guide, page 28) that becomes 2d8 at size Large and 3d8 at size Huge; the latter figure matches the listed ballista damage (DMG page 100). A great crossbow (Races of Stone, page 155) deals 2d8 damage at Medium size and 3d8 damage at Large size. So a Large great crossbow bolt should have the identical ability to punch through Wind Wall as a ballista bolt or Huge heavy crossbow bolt.

Then it's just a matter of figuring out the best way for your character to wield a Large great crossbow.

[Cieyrin]

Then it's just a matter of figuring out the best way for your character to wield a Large great crossbow.

Goliaths fit that bill perfectly, plus they have a PrC specifically for archers, though I wouldn't necessarily take the full class by any means, as the last level isn't that great.

[Pika...]

I have a recurring Drow worshipper of Eilistraee that works as a sniper/crossbow man.

1. Get you hide as high as possible. If you take a -20 to your roll, you can attempt to hide directly after a shot made from hiding, hence an invisible sniper! :smallbiggrin:

2. Move Silently might help too.

3. Find a way to get the spell True Strike on a spell-list you have access to. This allows you to cast it from a wand without needing to use UMD. If you're an Elf/Drow all the better, as the Elf domain for a cleric grants it.

4. Get a wand chamber installed inside the hilt of your crossbow. Now if you really need to, or really want to hit something just spend one round casting true strike (+20 to your next attack), and I am guessing getting into position. The next round fire, and odds are you won't be missing 19 out of 20 times.

5. Clerics (maybe multiclassed with Rogue) are exceptional at this, as they have spells like prayer, guidance (a 0 level cantrop!), and so on to help you hit.

6. Also, access to the Trickery domain plus the feat Domain Spontinuity (Lets you trade spells for your domain spell of that level like you can cure/inflict spells) is great for this, as you can shoot and then spam Invisibility on yourself.

[Curmudgeon]

1. Get you hide as high as possible. If you take a -20 to your roll, you can attempt to hide directly after a shot made from hiding, hence an invisible sniper! :smallbiggrin:
That's not quite right.
It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging. You don't Hide after attacking; you Hide while attacking ─ assuming you're allowed to, that is: you still need cover/concealment. If you were already hidden before you took the shot, though, you weren't being observed, so that other Hide skill requirement is already covered. But if you succeed (your Hide with the -20 penalty still beats opposed Spot checks) you never become visible. If you only hid after attacking then all the enemies would have had a chance to see you (since reactive Spot checks don't take an action, they happen on your turn and everyone else's too). So hiding while attacking is much better than hiding afterward.

[Pika...]

Thank you for clearing that up Curmudgeon!


Also, I forgot to mention:

Have various poison bolts, each marked with a color as to not b confused. Use these when you have True Strike ready so you don't waste expensive poisons on a wall/tree.

[Biotroll]

Thanks for answers so far. I've been looking for options too and came with first draft of a build:

Human Targeteer Fighter 4/PsyWar 2/Deep Wood Sniper 3/Swordsage 1 (/Ranger 1/Deep Wood Sniper 4 - we will be starting at lvl10, but playing to lvl 15 or more, so this is plan for the future :smalltongue:)

Feats:
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Great crossbow): lvl1(targeteer bonus)
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Repeating crossbow): lvl1(targeteer bonus)
Weapon Focus (Great crossbow): lvl1(fighter bonus feat)
Crossbow Sniper: lvl1
Able Learner: Human
Point Blank Shot: flaw
Sniper: lvl2(fighter spec ability)
Precise Shot: lvl3
Weapon Specialization (Great crossbow):lvl4(fighter bonus feat)
Psionic Shot: lvl5(PsyWar bonus feat)
Psionic Meditation: lvl6
Greater Psionic Shot: lvl6(PsyWar bonus feat)
Ranged Weapon Mastery: lvl9
Craven: lvl12
Telling Blow: lvl15

If I get it right, then with Quick-Loading property from MiC and either Ghostly Reload from friendly wizard or Self-Loading enhancement, I would be able to use move action to get psionicaly focused and then expend it on shot as standart action. With strongarm bracers this would lead to: 3d8 +1/2 dex +4d6 +4 (for mastery and specialization). With assassin's stance, craven and wand of Sniper's shot in wandchamber for swift action activation, this would add another +2d6 (+level once I get craven) to it. Crit range 15-20/x3 at lvl10, and on first round when I'm already psionicaly focused and got bolt loaded, I can use rapid shot to get another attack (and -2 penalty to hit) which would be sacrificed with Sniper for crit range of 13-20/x3 (and if we get to lvl 16, then 12-20/x4).

So, uh, have I made any mistakes in this build or is it really working like I think it is? :smallsmile:

Edit: Oh, forgot about PsyWar and expansion, for a little boost on damage too. It will be only situational (and with short duration because of lack of PP) but still it's there.
Edit2: Added proficiencies stuff.

[Curmudgeon]

Feats:
Weapon Focus (Great crossbow): lvl1(fighter bonus feat)

So, uh, have I made any mistakes in this build or is it really working like I think it is? :smallsmile:
Yes, you've made a big mistake right at the start:
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1. Unless you first take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (great crossbow) you don't qualify for most of the feats which follow.

[Biotroll]

Unless you first take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (great crossbow) you don't qualify for most of the feats which follow.

I thought that targeteer fighter variant grants two exotic weapon proficiencies as long as they are ranged weapons. If not, then I can still grab second flaw to get it.

[Curmudgeon]

I thought that targeteer fighter variant grants two exotic weapon proficiencies as long as they are ranged weapons.
They do. So don't you think you should add those to your build?

[Biotroll]

Edited the post with build so it now has proficiencies.

[LanSlyde]

I didn't actually read anything beyond your first post, but you should look into the Assassin prestige class if your rolling with a great crossbow.

Also, I direct you to my Crossbow Shotgun thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245518

It beats the machine guns hands down.

[Spuddles]

An interesting alternative would be Artificer, and instead of feats and class features that add dex to damage, you use scrolla of ranger spells from Champions of Ruin.

[SowZ]

Isn't there something that let's you sacrifice extra attacks for a bonus on ranged attacks?

[Ksheep]

I was about to suggest that you get a level in Urban Druid, as it is proficient with ALL crossbows (not just light and heavy), but it looks like you've got that covered with Targeteer, and Targeteer probably fits better anyway… Still, you may want to look into it just to double check.

[Fouredged Sword]

On crossbow build I created that works on a funny mechanic is as follows. Something x / Trapsmith 1 / Something X

Now you can lay a crossbow trap as a standard action. The target are is a 4 square area and you can place it with a foe already in it. It uses your craft skill to set the attack bonus (and you can get this to silly levels)

Use a sizing crossbow to place a colossal great crossbow trap for something like 10d8 damage.

[gorfnab]

+X Aptitude (ToB) Great Crossbow and the feat Hand Crossbow Focus (DotU). :smallbiggrin:

[Curmudgeon]

+X Aptitude (ToB) Great Crossbow and the feat Hand Crossbow Focus (DotU). :smallbiggrin:
That'll only work with a DM who doesn't pay attention to the details. Aptitude works for several specified feats "or the like". All of the example feats follow this pattern:
Choose one type of weapon (for which you have already selected the Weapon Focus feat). Hand Crossbow Focus doesn't follow that "Choose one type of weapon" pattern.

Then, of course, that's specifically not what the OP asked for even if you can pull the wool over your DM's eyes. Getting aptitude or any other enhancement which substantially delays being able to afford splitting is just counterproductive. The idea is for a 1-shot sniper, capable of dealing substantial damage in the surprise round. If that one shot can hit twice with a standard action it's simply twice as good.