Kingdom Hearts Thread [Forewarned: Spoilers]

[INoKnowNames]

So, the newest in the series is just about to be released in the US. (And practically everyone else in the world has already had it for a while.)

I've wanted to ask a few questions about the series, possibly while replaying it and getting other things understood. Lord knows it would take a group of researchers to make sense out of most JRPGS, let alone one as odd and complicated as Kingdom Hearts.

So I wanna make this thread.

And I'd like to ask if we can talk without worrying about Spoilers, because there's just oh so uch that doesn't seem to quite make sense, and worrying about who has or hasn't played this or that makes the issues even harder to understand.

Anyone else here who has an interest in the Kingdom Hearts series?

If so, let's start with something "simple":

How many people are part of Sora now? From my count, we've got...
Sora himself
Ventus from -way- back
Vanitas somehow, maybe clinging to Ventus?
Roxas, after he went back into Sora,
Xion, having become part of Roxas,
and, somehow, Namine, being intrinsically linked to both Sora and Kairi.


Is that about right? Am I forgetting someone else?

[ThePhantom]

I believe your count is pretty much correct, through Namine appears to be more connected to Kairi.

[Knight13]

Not quite. Roxas was basically Ventus with amnesia, so they only count as one.

Vanitas was just Ventus' darkness, which Xehanort stripped out of him. So if he did merge with Ventus, all it means is that Ventus is a complete being again.

Xion never existed as a separate being in the first place, due to being made up of memories stolen from Sora. So she's only "part of" Sora in the same sense that any of his own memories are.

Namine is Kairi's Nobody, not Sora's. She just has certain powers over Sora due to her unique birth.

So, in the end, I would say it's just Sora and Ventus in there.

[ThePhantom]

No, Roxas wasn't Ventus with amnesia, while his form was that of Ventus, he was his own being, so he counts.

Now, I'll give you that Vanitas is mostly likely gone back to Ventus, so he wouldn't count.

As for Xion, she may not have started out as a separate being, but she became one. Sure she was mostly Sora's memories given life by some process of Vexen, but even after almost every last bit of her was gone, there is still something left.

So that's four people in there, some how. Or least very closely connected.

[Rake21]

No, Roxas wasn't Ventus with amnesia, while his form was that of Ventus, he was his own being, so he counts.

Now, I'll give you that Vanitas is mostly likely gone back to Ventus, so he wouldn't count.

As for Xion, she may not have started out as a separate being, but she became one. Sure she was mostly Sora's memories given life by some process of Vexen, but even after almost every last bit of her was gone, there is still something left.

So that's four people in there, some how. Or least very closely connected.

That's probably a few more than you want living in any protagonists head.

Also, good God. I step out for a few games and everything gets weird... er.

[Illieas]

My count is sora has

1. Sora himself
2. Ventus
3. Roxas (sora's nobody)
4. Xion

I am pretty sure vanitas was destroyed. and Namine is weird but end of KH2 shows that she is kairi's nobody.

I count people based on differing life experiences. I would say that roxas and sora is different. So much so that roxas fought sora. and that roxas and ventus are different even if they look the same. plus you gotta keep the trios together.Sora Kairi Riku. Xion Roxas Axel, Ventus aqua terra

Even though xion is bunch of mermories stuffed into a doll she had sentience so i consider her a person we need to save when KH3 ever comes out.

though then i feel for namine maybe she can get a replica riku and replica sora.
waiting on KH 3D. it is a week away i can't wait

[INoKnowNames]

That's probably a few more than you want living in any protagonists head.

Indeed. All that pressure he and his many conciousnesses are under is why he's so susceptable to Team X's Heart Rape, after all.


Also, good God. I step out for a few games and everything gets weird... er.

..... No. The games were normal to a point. By Days and DDD, the games get weird.


I believe your count is pretty much correct, through Namine appears to be more connected to Kairi.

True, though she's part of the cluster **** that is Sora's conciousness, as far as DDD seems concerned... or at least still part of Xion's, who is part of Sora's... this is why i made this thread; I'm still trying to understand what the **** is going on.


Not quite. Roxas was basically Ventus with amnesia, so they only count as one.

Roxas wasn't channeling Ventus at all. Roxas was channeling Xion, and Sora's memories of Riku and Kairi. Ventus is just inside Sora's heart..... ****, does Sora's Heartless also count as being someone else in the aforementioned cluster****?


Vanitas was just Ventus' darkness, which Xehanort stripped out of him. So if he did merge with Ventus, all it means is that Ventus is a complete being again.

Spoiler Alert: Vanitas is definitely awake enough in them to at least verbally insult Sora in the Notredome World. And there's a chance he's responsible for Anti-Form Sora in KHII. So he's definitely not playing nice in Ventus.

Besides, Ventus as a complete being would have ment a re-appearance of the Xi-Blade much sooner, what with the perfect matches of Pure Light and Pure Darkness merging. And Vanitas was going more for a take over, rather than merging. Plus, Ventus was rendered to be as pure as a Princess of Heart...

Of course, I'm still scratching my head trying to remember everything...


Xion never existed as a separate being in the first place, due to being made up of memories stolen from Sora. So she's only "part of" Sora in the same sense that any of his own memories are.

.... I'm the only one on this thread that's been exposesd to half of 3DS' mind ****ing, aren't I? She's still alive in Sora, even if she's the only one in him that still realises it. ... **** got complicated.


Namine is Kairi's Nobody, not Sora's. She just has certain powers over Sora due to her unique birth.

True. I forgot, that was Xion appearing as Namine... hopefully.


So, in the end, I would say it's just Sora and Ventus in there.

Nah, it's Sora, Roxas, Ventus, Vanitas, and Xion, at least.


Now, I'll give you that Vanitas is mostly likely gone back to Ventus, so he wouldn't count.

See above. He's not done yet.


As for Xion, she may not have started out as a separate being, but she became one. Sure she was mostly Sora's memories given life by some process of Vexen, but even after almost every last bit of her was gone, there is still something left.

So that's four people in there, some how. Or least very closely connected.

Spoilered because a bit perverted:

Dear God, no wonder there's so much Yaoi about KH, one person is, at minimum, a 4-some!


I count people based on differing life experiences. I would say that roxas and sora is different. So much so that roxas fought sora. and that roxas and ventus are different even if they look the same. plus you gotta keep the trios together.Sora Kairi Riku. Xion Roxas Axel, Ventus aqua terra

You forgot Sora, Donald and Goofy! Yes, in that order. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd5QZrJDV2U) :smalltongue:


Even though xion is bunch of mermories stuffed into a doll she had sentience so i consider her a person we need to save when KH3 ever comes out.

Technically, Namine is also included in the list of people Sora's gotta save... at least if the secret videos count, and they usually do. But **** still doesn't make sense...


though then i feel for namine maybe she can get a replica riku and replica sora.

Oh god, don't get started on replicas...


waiting on KH 3D. it is a week away i can't wait

I pissed myself the second the Julius fight was leaked. A Disney Villain as difficult to fight as Sephiroth...

[Mixt]

Damn man, Xehanort has really topped himself this time.

Xehanort is playing Xanatos Roulette with a rigged wheel...

Watch it, here be spoilers.
13 Xehanort's...THIRTEEN OF HIM! :smalleek:
Woe, the true Organization XIII has risen, members include
1: Master Xehanort
2: Young Xehanort, pulled from the past of an alternate timeline
3: Ansem, Seeker Of Darkness
4: Xemnas
5: Braig/Xigbar (Possessed)
6: Isa/Saix (Possessed)
7-12: Unidentified.
13: Would have been Sora (Possessed), were it not for the joint efforts and multiple successive Big Damn Heroes of Riku, Mickey, Lea/Axel, Donald and Goofy. For now the seat remains empty...though that likely won't last long.

And so the stage is set for Kingdom Hearts 3.


...Wait a moment *Looks at my user name, notices it's my name in reverse with an X added*
...Pffffftttt....

[Wookieetank]

...Wait a moment *Looks at my user name, notices it's my name in reverse with an X added*
...Pffffftttt....

Some call you....
:smallcool:
Tim?

[INoKnowNames]

Damn man, Xehanort has really topped himself this time.

Xehanort is playing Xanatos Roulette with a rigged wheel...

Watch it, here be spoilers.
13 Xehanort's...THIRTEEN OF HIM! :smalleek:
Woe, the true Organization XIII has risen, members include
1: Master Xehanort
2: Young Xehanort, pulled from the past of an alternate timeline
3: Ansem, Seeker Of Darkness
4: Xemnas
5: Braig/Xigbar (Possessed)
6: Isa/Saix (Possessed)
7-12: Unidentified.
13: Would have been Sora (Possessed), were it not for the joint efforts and multiple successive Big Damn Heroes of Riku, Mickey, Lea/Axel, Donald and Goofy. For now the seat remains empty...though that likely won't last long.

And so the stage is set for Kingdom Hearts 3.

I'm still trying to figure stuff out about that...

I thought Young Master Xehanort disappeared, having gone from watching Sora's final battle against Xemnas to start the series by initiating the process that lead to Ansem and Xemnas' births, stoping only to fight against Riku...

How was Old Master Xehanort reborn from Young Master Xehanort's defeat?

How does Old Master Xehanort exist at the same time of Ansem and Xemnas?

What does all of this mean for Terra's body and heart?

What does all of this mean for Master Eraqus' body, mind and heart?

Where did the other half of the first Organisation go? And where the heck did all of the new members come from?

Personally, I wanted to start asking about the simple stuff first, but you had to bring it up....


...Wait a moment *Looks at my user name, notices it's my name in reverse with an X added*
...Pffffftttt....

That's funny.... right?

[Mixt]

I think i may be able to answer one of those questions at least.

My understanding of it goes rougly like this.
In the primary Timeline, henceforth refered to as Timeline A, shortly after becoming a Heartless "Ansem" gives up his physical form in order to be able to travel through time, so he goes back and arrives in Timeline B, where he recruits Young Master Xehanort and grants him the power of time travel as well, then he travels back to Timeline A and possesses Riku, eventually leading to his defeat at Sora's hands in the first game.
The events leading up to Xemnas's demise follows.

When both "Ansem" and Xemnas have been destroyed, thus starting the process of reforming the original Xehanort, Young Xehanort goes to timeline C and recruits that Timelines versions of "Ansem" and Xemnas at some point prior to their defeat.
Since even small changes in events can cause the timeline to split, this "Ansem" and Xemnas have basically the same memories and experiences as the ones from Timeline A despite actually not being them.

Result: "Ansem" and Xemnas manages to Co-Exist with the original Master Xehanort. Thanks a lot, Young Xehanort, or should i say...Trollanort? :smallannoyed:

Also, now for some Fridge Logic.

Xehanort is a chess master, if his plot to create the X-Blade had succeeded, how exactly would he have controlled Vanitas, seeing as how Vanitas would be the one with the X-Blade. He must have had some way to ensure there wouldn't be any betrayals.

It turns out that having yellow eyes is not actually a sign or darkness corruption as originally believed, it's actually a sign that you are being influenced by Xehanort. Which explains Xigbar and Saix having yellow eyes when the rest of the Organization didn't, turns out they were already partially possessed.

Vanitas is a being of pure darkness, and has yellow eyes, even though it turns out that yellow eyes has nothing to do with darkness...

...Vanitas shows up briefly alongside Young Xehanort in Notre Dame to taunt Sora

...Aww crap!:smalleek:


That's funny.... right?

Considering just what the X means, no, not funny.
Xehanort, don't you dare try to turn me into another you! I am not your property!

[Dragonus45]

So aparently i am waaaaay behind. Could someone catch me up here, the last game i played was For the PSP. When did Time Travel Happen?

[Mixt]

So aparently i am waaaaay behind. Could someone catch me up here, the last game i played was For the PSP. When did Time Travel Happen?

It first showed up in Timeless River in Kingdom Hearts 2, though that incident had nothing to do with this other than to establish that it's possible.

It's next appearance was during the hidden bonus boss battle against the Mysterious Figure (Now known as Young Xehanort) in Birth By Sleep for the PSP where he would sometimes rewind time a few seconds when you hit him, thus undoing the damage, and then use his knowledge of what you are going to do to dodge before the attack can hit him again.

Basically, he was using time travel to heal himself and dodge your attacks, the cheap bastard.

This is also the guy who can 1-hit kill you even when you have a full health bar, has ridiculously long combos, a block move that heals a full health bar, can turn invisible so you can't target him, blows your commands out of your menu so you can't use them and uses doom to kill you instantly if you can't escape the bindings in time.

And now in Dream Drop Distance it shows up again, where it's revealed that jumping back and forth between Timelines and different points in time to recruit 13 different incarnations of himself in order to form a new Organization XIII is a vital part of Xehanort's plans.

Also, near the end off the game during the boss battle against Young Xehanort, when you defeat him he uses time travel to restart the battle, forcing you to fight him again, and when you defeat him again, he rewinds time AGAIN, and so on ad infinitum, restarting the boss battle every time you beat him unless you use a Reality Shift (AKA Minor Reality Warping, due to dreams being malleable and them currently being in a dreamscape) to stop him from doing so, basically smashing the rewinding clock to pieces so that he can't restart the battle, so the second part of the battle has you on a time limit to break his time travel attempt before he can rewind. If you pull that off you win the battle.
The guy is called Trollanort by fans for a reason.
"Think you beat me? Think again!" *Rewinds time to the start of the battle*


Now, for how time travel works in the Kingdom Hearts universe.
In order to travel through time you need something to anchor yourself to at your destination point.
Basically you can only time travel to points in time where you or some version of you exists, making time traveling outside the confines of your own lifespan effectively impossible, though you are free to jump back and forth all over the place as long as some form of you exists at the time you wish to arrive in.
This is why Xehanort can't simply witness the Keyblade War by going back in time, he didn't exist yet when it happened, so he can't go there.

The Timeless River is a bit of a special case, since Sora didn't exist yet at that point in time, however he was traveling with Donald and Goofy, who DID exist at that point, so Sora was pulled along, effectively circumventing the rules without anyone even realizing they did it.

This exception is something that Xehanort can't use however, because the Keyblade War took place thousands of years ago there is literally nothing currently alive that was there when it happened.

And that ends my explanation of KH Time Travel and the limitations it has

[INoKnowNames]

I think i may be able to answer one of those questions at least.

Thanks. 'cause I sure as sugar am wracking my brain trying to figure out half of this stuff...


My understanding of it goes rougly like this.
In the primary Timeline, henceforth refered to as Timeline A, shortly after becoming a Heartless "Ansem" gives up his physical form in order to be able to travel through time, so he goes back and arrives in Timeline B, where he recruits Young Master Xehanort and grants him the power of time travel as well, then he travels back to Timeline A and possesses Riku, eventually leading to his defeat at Sora's hands in the first game.
The events leading up to Xemnas's demise follows.

So, Xehanort's Heartless (and he should be called as such, just because how many people have used Ansem's name now?) showed up as that brown-hooded dude because he had no physical form... and he gave his younger self the ability to time travel, then went back and the rest of the story goes on.

That's easy enough. ... in theory. Although Timeline A and Timeline B is going to just make my head hurt.... ****, this is just like the Dragon Ball Z time line junk.... It's not Time Travel so much as Dimension Travel, then...


When both "Ansem" and Xemnas have been destroyed, thus starting the process of reforming the original Xehanort,

Why did it reform him as his Older self, ala before stealing Terra's body? And what happened to said body then?


Young Xehanort goes to timeline C and recruits that Timelines versions of "Ansem" and Xemnas at some point prior to their defeat.

... what happens to the entire world of Timeline C without a Xemnas or XH? And why wouldn't that part of the multiverse have a Young Master Xehanort?


Since even small changes in events can cause the timeline to split, this "Ansem" and Xemnas have basically the same memories and experiences as the ones from Timeline A despite actually not being them.

.... this I have absolutely no idea of what you mean.


Result: "Ansem" and Xemnas manages to Co-Exist with the original Master Xehanort. Thanks a lot, Young Xehanort, or should i say...Trollanort? :smallannoyed:

Okay... Headcount time.

From World A,
XH: Destroyed.
Xemnas: Destroyed.
Master Xehanort: Revived due to the destruction of the previous two.
Young Xehanort: Doesn't exist.

From World B,
XH: Doesn't exist.
Xemnas: Doesn't exist.
Master Xehanort: Doesn't exist.
Young Xehanort: Recruited to World A.

And from World C,
XH: Recruited to World A.
Xemnas: Recruited to World A.
Master Xehanort: Doesn't exist.
Young Xehanort: Doesn't exist.

How far off am I?


Also, now for some Fridge Logic.

The most interesting kind of logic, though mine is more Loo based than Fridge.


Xehanort is a chess master, if his plot to create the X-Blade had succeeded, how exactly would he have controlled Vanitas, seeing as how Vanitas would be the one with the X-Blade. He must have had some way to ensure there wouldn't be any betrayals.

It didn't seem like he was too worried about betrayel, considering how he had manipulated everyone, even those working against him, into doing exactly what he wanted....

Besides, he did force Terra to extract Princess Aurora's Heart, which demonstrates the easy ability to manipulate someone weaker than him; I bet he's probably stronger than Vanitas is, even with the X-Blade.

Also, thank -GOD- we aren't doing this verbally. The KeyBlade-ChiBlade nonsense was ridiculous to hear.


It turns out that having yellow eyes is not actually a sign or darkness corruption as originally believed, it's actually a sign that you are being influenced by Xehanort. Which explains Xigbar and Saix having yellow eyes when the rest of the Organization didn't, turns out they were already partially possessed.

I'm not completely sure about that. Terra wasn't ever dirrectly possessed by Xehanort until after the final battle with him at the Keyblade Graveyard, and he was still shown (at least in the super epic cutscene at the end of KHIIFM) with the same Yellow Eyes of Darkness.... and Sora was being actively corrupted by the Second Organisation in Days, yet his eyes never changed colors.


Vanitas is a being of pure darkness, and has yellow eyes, even though it turns out that yellow eyes has nothing to do with darkness...

Assuming you ignore the -stupid- as heck retcon about his existance in the novels... although if you do, your theory is strengthened a bit.


...Vanitas shows up briefly alongside Young Xehanort in Notre Dame to taunt Sora

...Aww crap!:smalleek:

Still a pretty good chance Vanitas was enjoying every time Sora went into Anti-Form.


Considering just what the X means, no, not funny.
Xehanort, don't you dare try to turn me into another you! I am not your property!

Hey, you chose it for yourself. Not to mention for all of those that weren't in line with it, it just seemed to be the monkier for a nobody... Your online profile is your nobody! And you're a heartless!


So aparently i am waaaaay behind. Could someone catch me up here, the last game i played was For the PSP. When did Time Travel Happen?

You're probably about on schedule with most of the public. It wasn't until the DS and 3DS titles that **** started getting complicated.


It first showed up in Timeless River in Kingdom Hearts 2, though that incident had nothing to do with this other than to establish that it's possible.

Not to mention it wasn't nearly as troublesome to the plot... other than that the Cornerstone of Light was supposed to be able to ward away Maleficent.


It's next appearance was during the hidden bonus boss battle against the Mysterious Figure (Now known as Young Xehanort) in Birth By Sleep for the PSP where he would sometimes rewind time a few seconds when you hit him, thus undoing the damage, and then use his knowledge of what you are going to do to dodge before the attack can hit him again.

Someone wanted to -swear- it was Luxord (because of the Time Powers) or Saix (because of his in game model). And I swear I saw some (obviously a very poor fanfic writer) claims that it was Sora and Kairi's child, from the future sent into the past....


Basically, he was using time travel to heal himself and dodge your attacks, the cheap bastard.

This is also the guy who can 1-hit kill you even when you have a full health bar, has ridiculously long combos, a block move that heals a full health bar, can turn invisible so you can't target him, blows your commands out of your menu so you can't use them and uses doom to kill you instantly if you can't escape the bindings in time.

Don't forget Colission Magnet. Lets him be able to combo-kill you even when you have defenses that specifically prevent combo-killing.


And now in Dream Drop Distance it shows up again, where it's revealed that jumping back and forth between Timelines and different points in time to recruit 13 different incarnations of himself in order to form a new Organization XIII is a vital part of Xehanort's plans.

I'm still sorta stumped on where he's going to pull the rest of his second Organization out from his butt... maybe the other members of the first that we haven't seen come back yet?


Also, near the end off the game during the boss battle against Young Xehanort, when you defeat him he uses time travel to restart the battle, forcing you to fight him again, and when you defeat him again, he rewinds time AGAIN, and so on ad infinitum, restarting the boss battle every time you beat him unless you use a Reality Shift (AKA Minor Reality Warping, due to dreams being malleable and them currently being in a dreamscape) to stop him from doing so, basically smashing the rewinding clock to pieces so that he can't restart the battle, so the second part of the battle has you on a time limit to break his time travel attempt before he can rewind. If you pull that off you win the battle.
The guy is called Trollanort by fans for a reason.
"Think you beat me? Think again!" *Rewinds time to the start of the battle*

That reminds me; they don't actually go to any real in game location during their travels, right? They're just in the Realm of Sleep, trying to bring back the worlds that haven't fully awakened when the hearts of the worlds were returned, right?



Now, for how time travel works in the Kingdom Hearts universe.
In order to travel through time you need something to anchor yourself to at your destination point.
Basically you can only time travel to points in time where you or some version of you exists, making time traveling outside the confines of your own lifespan effectively impossible, though you are free to jump back and forth all over the place as long as some form of you exists at the time you wish to arrive in.
This is why Xehanort can't simply witness the Keyblade War by going back in time, he didn't exist yet when it happened, so he can't go there.

What's he supposed to gain from the Keyblade War again? Pretty sure he's doing all of this for laughs at this point.


The Timeless River is a bit of a special case, since Sora didn't exist yet at that point in time, however he was traveling with Donald and Goofy, who DID exist at that point, so Sora was pulled along, effectively circumventing the rules without anyone even realizing they did it.

I thought it was just because Merlin used his magic to make a portal back to the Timeless River, after Pete somehow summoned one.


This exception is something that Xehanort can't use however, because the Keyblade War took place thousands of years ago there is literally nothing currently alive that was there when it happened.

Kingdom Hearts?


And that ends my explanation of KH Time Travel and the limitations it has

Thank you, professor.

[Illieas]

found this hilarious plot summary of kindom hearts link (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8cPyvE2GTjOMzE4MTVlZTctMjE5Yi00YzAzLWJjZTAtZTllO DY2OTc2MTMx/edit)

Also KH 3d getting some good reviews. I got 5 days left till i pick my copy up.

BTW it just hit me if sora save namine and xion. and namine is kairi's nobody and xion is memories of what kairi is like. we have just cloned kairi twice! i wonder how confusing that would be. wonder who sora would choose?

[INoKnowNames]

found this hilarious plot summary of kindom hearts link (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8cPyvE2GTjOMzE4MTVlZTctMjE5Yi00YzAzLWJjZTAtZTllO DY2OTc2MTMx/edit)

That's above hilarious; that's -informative-!

At least until 3DS, which is when **** gets -beyond- complicated.... to be honest, I understood absolutely everything said in the summary with no questions... it's litterally when 3DS comes in that the plot switches to Cylon.


Also KH 3d getting some good reviews. I got 5 days left till i pick my copy up.

The Wall Jumping alone would probably have me playing for hours.. just jumping of walls like freaking Spiderman....


BTW it just hit me if sora save namine and xion. and namine is kairi's nobody and xion is memories of what kairi is like. we have just cloned kairi twice! i wonder how confusing that would be. wonder who sora would choose?

Xion's probably not coming back. She's a part of Sora that wasn't supposed to have manifested her own being. And Namine and Roxas need to learn to play nice as full beings part of Kairi and Sora respectively.

Alternatively, Sora gets Kairi, Roxas gets Namine, and Lea gets Xion. And everyone's happy.

[ThePhantom]

found this hilarious plot summary of kindom hearts link (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8cPyvE2GTjOMzE4MTVlZTctMjE5Yi00YzAzLWJjZTAtZTllO DY2OTc2MTMx/edit)



Its funny, and it accurately describes the plot. Sure, there's a little less details about the journal (coded), but other than that, not bad.

[INoKnowNames]

Its funny, and it accurately describes the plot. Sure, there's a little less details about the journal (coded), but other than that, not bad.

Exactly how much did Coded really bring to the story? That's the one game I haven't played yet...

[ThePhantom]

Well, it didn't add too much. But it does show a bit more on data constructs, like just becauses something is made of data doesn't mean it can't be real, to a degree.

It has confirmation of where Ven is, and that Master Xehanort is returning, the whole destroy heartless and nobody and the orignal is returns. And it explains what Malificent was after during her time in BBS.

[INoKnowNames]

Well, it didn't add too much. But it does show a bit more on data constructs, like just becauses something is made of data doesn't mean it can't be real, to a degree.

It has confirmation of where Ven is, and that Master Xehanort is returning, the whole destroy heartless and nobody and the orignal is returns. And it explains what Malificent was after during her time in BBS.

Okay, I'll give you Xehanort's return being an important plot point, that's one thing it does teach... but I think that was only really in the secret ending, right?

Speaking of which, how many Keyblades are we up to now? Sora, Master Riku, King Mickey, Lea, and Kairi... if they recruit Aqua, find Ventus again, and possibly find Terra's body and fix him up.... not to mention Eraqus is in there -somewhere-....

[ThePhantom]

I think Yen Sid still has a keyblade, he just has never used it on screen. So, currently they have six, and could get four more, which makes ten.

[INoKnowNames]

I think Yen Sid still has a keyblade, he just has never used it on screen. So, currently they have six, and could get four more, which makes ten.

See, I could -NEVER- imagine Yen Sid fighting. He looks like he's destined to stay behind that chair... even when he was attacked, he was just chillin' on his throne as Sora fought the Heartless...

I'm still trying to figure out how and why Xehanort came back in his old body, and what that means for Terra and Eraqus...

[Kjata]

I'm honestly shocked that when you take Disney, with their usually pretty simple stories, and Final Fantasy which can sometimes get a little complex, you get a crazy mess that makes no sense. Halfway into KH2 I decided I didn't need to hear the most convoluted way possible to explain how friendship conquers all.

[INoKnowNames]

I'm honestly shocked that when you take Disney, with their usually pretty simple stories, and Final Fantasy which can sometimes get a little complex, you get a crazy mess that makes no sense. Halfway into KH2 I decided I didn't need to hear the most convoluted way possible to explain how friendship conquers all.

..... I should go back and play Final Fantasy games, because I can't remember half of those plots ever making sense to me as a kid.

As for Disney, I heard it was because of them (and Square, to be fair) that everything's gotten so complicated. The plot wasn't supposed to be this long when first concieved, apparently, but the success of the series had two large companies pressuring for more for the money, and so it had to be continued... but that's just a rumor, as far as I know.

And the plot of Kingdom Hearts goes -quite- a bit beyond just friendship.... have you kept playing and just skipped the information that wasn't playable, or did you decide to just stop at KH2? 'cause it wasn't ever really that simple and straight forward.

Really, the series.. while not being -perfectly- straight forward, did make sense, at least within it's own universe. Then 3DS came out, and Time Travel, and I had to be lectured on what the hell was going on with the big bad. And there are -still- things I don't get about it.

[INoKnowNames]

I just got Dream Drop Distance... and I have to wait to play it because my 3DS's shoulder button isn't working, so I can't really lock on.

I will say that the jumping off of walls function is, however, awesome as heck...

Anyone else have this game, and how far have you gotten yet?

[Mixt]

Well, i just cleared the game and it appears i have been operating on false information.
Kindly disregard what i said earlier.
You see for yourselves when you get there.

Also, for some reason i find it kind of funny that one of the bosses near the end is called the "Anti-Black Coat"

[INoKnowNames]

Well, i just cleared the game and it appears i have been operating on false information.
Kindly disregard what i said earlier.
You see for yourselves when you get there.

..... so everything I thought I knew is a lie, everything I learned is a lie, and I've still got no idea what the heck is going on, and won't know until I get my 3DS fixed..... :smallsigh:

[Illieas]

quick question is there a special ending if you do proud mode? or can i just do standard and get everything
for the 3ds version

[INoKnowNames]

quick question is there a special ending if you do proud mode? or can i just do standard and get everything
for the 3ds version

I'm pretty sure you could do either or, but that it's easier to unlock it in Proud Mode. Though, to be safe, you might want to stick to the higher level difficulty, just to be sure.

Edit: A little research says there isn't a difference, other than needing 2 less trophies, between unlocking it in Normal or Proud. You have to clear a certain minigame to unlock another minigame, both being at the very end of the game, before you unlock the secret ending.

[tonberrian]

So guys.

Wreck-it Ralph (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wreck-it_Ralph) as a Kingdom Hearts world. Discuss.

[INoKnowNames]

So guys.

Wreck-it Ralph (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wreck-it_Ralph) as a Kingdom Hearts world. Discuss.

The chance that Kingdom Hearts would be used to link Mario, Sonic, Street Fighter, and House of the Dead, as well as Final Fantasy and Disney, makes this a very interesting prospect. Though, wouldn't the world be called Fix-It-Felix Jr?

[Mixt]

Here, watch this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67rH_fjRhA)

EXTREME SPOILERS!

That will tell you a lot about what is going on.

This one as well (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9AccKKNN54&feature=relmfu)

[Burley]

Also, for some reason i find it kind of funny that one of the bosses near the end is called the "Anti-Black Coat"

Yeah, not sure what the reasoning behind it is, but I noticed that my Dark-based attacks did, easily, three times more damage than my Light-based attacks (as seen using Shadowbreaker). OH WELL!

On the original topic, here's what I've pieced together:
(Spoilers from multiple games...)
What makes Sora special is his ability to somehow connect to other people's hearts. A couple characters in KH3D even comment on how bland Sora is, except for that one ability. We see this come into play in KH1, when Xehanort first comes to Destiny Islands and Sora absorbs Kairi's heart with a big ol' ghost hug.

Since KH3D drops some knowledge that Xehanort had been planning things around Sora for a long time, it stands to reason that there is a connection between Ventus/Vanitas/Sora/Roxas, all stemming from Xehanort messing with their hearts.

We know that Vanitas was created by removing the darkness from Ven's heart. Most likely, to create a complete heart, he removed the darkness from Sora's, as well. This explains why Vanitas looks like Sora. The reason, I'm assuming (and was hoping would be backed up in KH3D, but was not confirmed or denied) was that the vacuum created in the two hearts is what drew them together in the first place.
This is most likely the reason that Roxas looks like Ven.

Finally, KH3D explains that even Nobodies can eventually regrow their heart, especially when they are reminded enough what it was like to have one. (Another reason why saying a Nobody is heartless is wrong. :smalltongue:)

Also, let's not forget that, during KH3D, Riku is inside the sleeping Sora's heart. That may be enough time, I think, to count Riku as one of the many people inside Sora.

[wiimanclassic]

So I have a question, during most of KH2, before he fuses back with Roxas anyway, was Sora some strange mutant form of heartless that retained its mind and didn't have any of the crazyness seen in other heartless, or would all heartless like things(Sora, Ansem Seeker of Darkness) just kinda keep doing what they did before becoming heartless?

The question is Sora being some weird heartless unique or would all human shaped heartless act like they did in life?

[Whoracle]

Ah, a KH thread. exactly what I needed. While browsing around bored and waiting for my 3D to arrive, I came across this (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8cPyvE2GTjOMzE4MTVlZTctMjE5Yi00YzAzLWJjZTAtZTllO DY2OTc2MTMx/view?hl=en_US&sle=true&pli=1) (warning, contains spoilers for the whole series, albeit only slightly), and I HAD to share it with people who know the series. I find it to be hilarious.

[ThePhantom]

Ah, a KH thread. exactly what I needed. While browsing around bored and waiting for my 3D to arrive, I came across this (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8cPyvE2GTjOMzE4MTVlZTctMjE5Yi00YzAzLWJjZTAtZTllO DY2OTc2MTMx/view?hl=en_US&sle=true&pli=1) (warning, contains spoilers for the whole series, albeit only slightly), and I HAD to share it with people who know the series. I find it to be hilarious.

That's been linked to this thread already, but it is fun.

As for Sora, I'm not sure, but I believe that Sora did have a body after his restoration from being a shadow. That whole event was very confusing, and not all the effects from that have likely come to light yet.

[wiimanclassic]

That's been linked to this thread already, but it is fun.

As for Sora, I'm not sure, but I believe that Sora did have a body after his restoration from being a shadow. That whole event was very confusing, and not all the effects from that have likely come to light yet.

I kinda assumed his "body" was a body in the same way that Ansem Seeker of Darkness had a body, mainly that its a weird construct of their heart or something.

[Whoracle]

That's been linked to this thread already, but it is fun.

Crud. the one time I don't bother reading 2 pages... typical.

As for Sora and the whole heart/body thingamajig, I was under the impression that bodies in KHLand are kinda ethereal. Dunno how I came to that conclusion, but that's what I took away. This would explain the "bodies" of the heartless and nobodies, and their dissolving after death.

[wiimanclassic]

Crud. the one time I don't bother reading 2 pages... typical.

As for Sora and the whole heart/body thingamajig, I was under the impression that bodies in KHLand are kinda ethereal. Dunno how I came to that conclusion, but that's what I took away. This would explain the "bodies" of the heartless and nobodies, and their dissolving after death.

I think the heartless part is more the heart makes an ethereal shell out of its own darkness/maybelight? and when destroyed the shell reforms elsewhere or the heart just goes to join kingdom hearts or wherever hearts waiting for the nobody to bite it wait.

Nobodies I think would kinda do the same thing only its more the body becomes ethereal without a heart or something. Chances are they just wait in limbo when they die.

[INoKnowNames]

Turn Unthread!


Here, watch this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67rH_fjRhA)

EXTREME SPOILERS!

That will tell you a lot about what is going on.

This one as well (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9AccKKNN54&feature=relmfu)

Funny enough, I'd already seen those, and they not only got more confusing going from Japanese with English Translations to English, but they still leave behind so many questions...


Yeah, not sure what the reasoning behind it is, but I noticed that my Dark-based attacks did, easily, three times more damage than my Light-based attacks (as seen using Shadowbreaker). OH WELL!


On the original topic, here's what I've pieced together:
(Spoilers from multiple games...)

Cool beans.


What makes Sora special is his ability to somehow connect to other people's hearts. A couple characters in KH3D even comment on how bland Sora is, except for that one ability. We see this come into play in KH1, when Xehanort first comes to Destiny Islands and Sora absorbs Kairi's heart with a big ol' ghost hug.

I always thought Kairi's heart going into his was just because they love each other, not because Sora's a symbiote...


Since KH3D drops some knowledge that Xehanort had been planning things around Sora for a long time, it stands to reason that there is a connection between Ventus/Vanitas/Sora/Roxas, all stemming from Xehanort messing with their hearts.

We know that Vanitas was created by removing the darkness from Ven's heart. Most likely, to create a complete heart, he removed the darkness from Sora's, as well. This explains why Vanitas looks like Sora. The reason, I'm assuming (and was hoping would be backed up in KH3D, but was not confirmed or denied) was that the vacuum created in the two hearts is what drew them together in the first place.

Going a bit more into the whole ability to connect to people thing, it was that when Ventus reached out to Sora's newborn heart after having his darkness split in half, Vanitas was also able to plug in. Xehanort and them were manipulating Sora in this Dream World, but I don't think he actually did anything to Sora when Sora was first born. He probably discovered them after the fact, roaming about Destiny Islands.


This is most likely the reason that Roxas looks like Ven.

Actually your next point kinda hits on my thoughts about this.


Finally, KH3D explains that even Nobodies can eventually regrow their heart, especially when they are reminded enough what it was like to have one. (Another reason why saying a Nobody is heartless is wrong. :smalltongue:)

I wonder... Sora had Ventus' heart within him since Vanitas' defeat. When Sora removed his Heart from his Body, and since Nobodies can possibly regain their hearts (assuming Xemnas isn't lying his ass off to manipulate Sora further), what if Sora still had his heart, but Roxas had Ventus' heart? And then Xion gained Sora's essence through the memories being taken from him, halting his revival?

Does this make any sense?


Also, let's not forget that, during KH3D, Riku is inside the sleeping Sora's heart. That may be enough time, I think, to count Riku as one of the many people inside Sora.

And Alex said he'd go in after Riku if he got traped inside... though I don't think Riku fully counts, since he's also his own full identity and he's been that way for a while. If Sora were to die, he wouldn't be completely screwed from it. Vanitas, Ventus, Xion, Roxas, they'd be in trouble if something happened to Sora, on the other hand.


So I have a question, during most of KH2, before he fuses back with Roxas anyway, was Sora some strange mutant form of heartless that retained its mind and didn't have any of the crazyness seen in other heartless, or would all heartless like things(Sora, Ansem Seeker of Darkness) just kinda keep doing what they did before becoming heartless?

The question is Sora being some weird heartless unique or would all human shaped heartless act like they did in life?

Sora was actually a Heartless (I suppose technically an Emblem Heartless, even though he was in Shadow Form) for a few minutes in Kingdom Hearts 1. Kairi was able to restore him to his natural form, though in this form he's still technically a Heartless. The essence that is his Body, the Nobody, Roxas, came into being at the time Sora stabed himself, and remained in existance until Diz, Riku, and Namine's efforts put him back into Sora. Sora at this point is a full being again.

At the end of Kingdom Hearts 2, Roxas, sensing Axel's demise, stirs within Sora. That part of his Heart challenges him.... Ven's Heart got strong enough to challenge Sora's Heart, over being choosen by the Keyblade, and still longing for the life he once had! Snap... I kinda like that theory.

But anyway, Sora fuzed back with Roxas near the beginning of Kingdom Hearts 2, just after the prologue ended. Roxas just got a bit stir crazy near the end, but went back willingly, only coming out again to say hi to Namine. Sora was complete the second he got out of that pod.


Ah, a KH thread. exactly what I needed. While browsing around bored and waiting for my 3D to arrive, I came across this (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8cPyvE2GTjOMzE4MTVlZTctMjE5Yi00YzAzLWJjZTAtZTllO DY2OTc2MTMx/view?hl=en_US&sle=true&pli=1) (warning, contains spoilers for the whole series, albeit only slightly), and I HAD to share it with people who know the series. I find it to be hilarious.


That's been linked to this thread already, but it is fun.

Indeed. Though it needs to be updated to include Coded, and now 3DS.


As for Sora, I'm not sure, but I believe that Sora did have a body after his restoration from being a shadow. That whole event was very confusing, and not all the effects from that have likely come to light yet.


I kinda assumed his "body" was a body in the same way that Ansem Seeker of Darkness had a body, mainly that its a weird construct of their heart or something.

I don't like using the actual words for it and then remarking on the corporialness of the not body and body, especially when case-in-point Ansem Seeker of Darkness infact did not have his body, having traded it to grant his youngerself Time/Space Travel Abilities.

I think it's better to think of the Heart and the Body as essences, with one needing both to be recognisable as a complete being. Once can still have a physical body and lack the essence of a body (like Sora and ASoD (before time travel)), and one can exist without the essence of a Heart (like our various nobody friends). Sora went without the essence of a Body for a while, but he still existed.

Or am I horribly horribly wrong?


Crud. the one time I don't bother reading 2 pages... typical.

:smalltongue:


As for Sora and the whole heart/body thingamajig, I was under the impression that bodies in KHLand are kinda ethereal. Dunno how I came to that conclusion, but that's what I took away. This would explain the "bodies" of the heartless and nobodies, and their dissolving after death.

Have we seen villains whose bodies aren't dissolved after death? It'd probably be helpful if we had more people fighting without a keyblade, since it's sorta designed to be able to manipulate the body/heart/universe...


I think the heartless part is more the heart makes an ethereal shell out of its own darkness/maybelight? and when destroyed the shell reforms elsewhere or the heart just goes to join kingdom hearts or wherever hearts waiting for the nobody to bite it wait.

Nobodies I think would kinda do the same thing only its more the body becomes ethereal without a heart or something. Chances are they just wait in limbo when they die.

This series got horrifying some time down the road....

[wiimanclassic]

This series got horrifying some time down the road....

I don't know, least if you get turned into the series version of a super zombie you can come back, just get someone to kill both of you.

[Yuki Akuma]

I have a question.

At the beginning of 358/2 Days, when Xemnas names him, Roxas has just been created, right? Maybe wondered around Twilight Town a bit, but when he goes back there later nobody knows who he is, so he probably didn't run into anyone.

So... where did he get those clothes? They're not what Sora was wearing, they're not what Ventus was wearing, they're not what Kairi or Vanitas were wearing...

Where did they come from? .-.

[INoKnowNames]

I have a question.

At the beginning of 358/2 Days, when Xemnas names him, Roxas has just been created, right? Maybe wondered around Twilight Town a bit, but when he goes back there later nobody knows who he is, so he probably didn't run into anyone.

So... where did he get those clothes? They're not what Sora was wearing, they're not what Ventus was wearing, they're not what Kairi or Vanitas were wearing...

Where did they come from? .-.

...... ****. I never thought about that myself. I just kinda assumed Nomura was avoiding this. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NakedOnRevival)

I should edit the op post to include questions, both open and closed.

[Illieas]

booo got 6 trophies on proud and no special end. some one lied to me.

review time for KH3D
System needs work. Don't know what the hell the class levels of the dreameaters effect and drop rates for mats suck don't get many mats for new pets. I do not like the pet portions of this game. this was step down in format. also i don't know if the buffs i unlock are permanent or just attached to the pet and i hate having to pet the buggers to get new ability links. lastly ballonra and balloonga is too strong. low start up time full on tracking tons of damage. just dodge and cast.
also that is probably the weirdest of all plots I have ever seen.


time travel! really!!? THe story is convoluted as hell in the first place. why did you have to throw that in.
ugg at least if you skipped the "just as planned" it kinda makes sense. xehnort is back. making an army of 13 evil hims. good guy need to make seven to defend against him

So i am assuming aqua sora riku lea ven kairi and mickey. the clash of these forces makes kingdom hearts. and now we patiently wait for KH3 in 4 years to resolve it. really the plot does not go forward too much. but i then again this game is stage setting.



2.5/5

edit found out why i don't have the secret ending you need the answer the question in specific way booo squenix BOOO:smallfurious:

[INoKnowNames]

I finally got my 3DS fixed, so I shoud be able to do a run through of it sooner. I hope my experiences with it are a bit better than Illieas' seemed to be.

I suppose I was the one who was the lier, but I did try to mention the sequence at the end without spoiling anything (ironic, since this is a blatantly spoiler based thread).

As far as too strong abilities, that's always been a problem in Kingdom Hearts. Aeroga in the first, Reflec in the second, and dear lord the Surges in BBS (though since they were the only things that could beat The Mysterious Figure, they get a pass).

... that reminds me, how is it cannon that Young Master Xehanort fought against Terra, Aqua, and Ventus in Birth By Sleep? I'm not sure how that could have happened, but apparently he was the Mysterious Figure in question. Did we already talk about this?

[ThePhantom]

Its canon that Young Xehanort did fight one of the trio, but its not sure which one.

[INoKnowNames]

Its canon that Young Xehanort did fight one of the trio, but its not sure which one.

I don't think it could have been Terra if you ask me. Besides the massive chance for the universe to be blown up if you meet your younger self (though how nobodies and heartless from paralel dimensions factor in is still to be seen), he was at ground zero when Xehanort destroyed it. It'd be odd for him to stick around for much longer.

Maybe Ven or Aqua did, both of them checking the Land of Departure upon being told of the bad stuff that happened. Maybe less so Aqua, since she seemed surprised by everything that went on.

[ThiagoMartell]

I'm playing Birth by Sleep... am I crazy or is Terra's storyline shorter than Aqua's? Still have Ven's to go through.

[INoKnowNames]

I'm playing Birth by Sleep... am I crazy or is Terra's storyline shorter than Aqua's? Still have Ven's to go through.

I'm pretty sure all 3 were pretty much even. I actually might think that Terra and Ventus' are just a bit longer than Aquas.

How far are you?

[Whoracle]

Just a quick heads up:

LP Kingdom Hearts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14025675).

Maybe some of you'll find it worthwile.

[INoKnowNames]

Just a quick heads up:

LP Kingdom Hearts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14025675).

Maybe some of you'll find it worthwile.

Indeed. I'll subscribe. Maybe those willing to talk about spoilers can be sent this way...

Also, I said it once, I'll say it again: Why so scared of Sephiroth? If it was Xemnas or the Lingering Will / White Hallway, I'd certainly understand, but if you're doing the regular version and not the final mix, then I don't see why you should be so intimidated... he's just the One Winged Angel...

[Whoracle]

It's not him I don't like, it's the massive amount of grinding neccessary do defeat him. I tried before and failed. Hard.

But we'll see. Maybe I'll be insane enough to try to take him on this time.

[INoKnowNames]

It's not him I don't like, it's the massive amount of grinding neccessary do defeat him. I tried before and failed. Hard.

But we'll see. Maybe I'll be insane enough to try to take him on this time.

Say that to the crazy bastards that beat the games at as low a level as possible....

I should try a level 1 run soon...

[Whoracle]

Well, as I claim in the LP: "I have a life" ;P

[INoKnowNames]

Well, as I claim in the LP: "I have a life" ;P

So you claim, yet you're starting a jrpg with the intent to do 99% of the game, so... :smalltongue:

[SiuiS]

That's easy enough. ... in theory. Although Timeline A and Timeline B is going to just make my head hurt.... ****, this is just like the Dragon Ball Z time line junk.... It's not Time Travel so much as Dimension Travel, then...

Time is the fourth dimension. The distinction is irrelevant. That's what makes space time so confusingly important.

Sephiroth I KH 1 was not so bad. I spent three hours fighting him... Because I hasn't eaten in a few days. A cup of coffee, some eggs and toast, come back after digestion and BAM! Beat him.

The hidden fight in KH2:FM+, now that was hard. Rewarding though!

[INoKnowNames]

Time is the fourth dimension. The distinction is irrelevant. That's what makes space time so confusingly important.

...... how DARE you come into my thread and start boring holes in my brain with your fancy talk!

:smallwink:

Still, I'm finally about to play the game now (KIU I'lll come back to later, about done with dying to Possessed Pit), so I'll see if I can figure it out of no one else can make it clear.


Sephiroth I KH 1 was not so bad. I spent three hours fighting him... Because I hasn't eaten in a few days. A cup of coffee, some eggs and toast, come back after digestion and BAM! Beat him.

I always prefered how he fought in 2 over how he fought in 1. Something so epic about that opening move, and you can actually -hear- him say Heartless Angel that time around.


The hidden fight in KH2:FM+, now that was hard. Rewarding though!

He had a lot of time to meditate..... I wonder if we'll ever see him again....

[Battleship789]

*snip*

I always prefered how he fought in 2 over how he fought in 1. Something so epic about that opening move, and you can actually -hear- him say Heartless Angel that time around.

*snip*

Indeed. Though the second part is mostly due to Lance Bass not doing the voice anymore. George Newbern sounds much better, imo.

[SiuiS]

I always prefered how he fought in 2 over how he fought in 1. Something so epic about that opening move, and you can actually -hear- him say Heartless Angel that time around.

KH 2 had a much ether fight, but it was nowhere near as hard. It was way more of a fight though. In 1, he was just this thing to dodge thrice, smack once, counter, dodge, repeat. I don't remember how I dealt with the superberywhere slash.

In two, the beat parts were when he'd touch down while you were gliding, and you had X time to hit dirt and spam triangle; or conversely, he'd keep you busy with some melee, some dark orbs, and suddenly he is at the end of the screen way up there calling out 'descend, heartless angel!' and you've got a half second to knock him down with blade work or spam a full cure.

That was one of many fights I felt suffered from being singled out, though. I wish more of the boss battles allowed you to use Drive Forms. Fun would have been tearing sephiroth a new everything via shadow sora.



He had a lot of time to meditate..... I wonder if we'll ever see him again....

I hope so. They really need to wrap this stuff up. They've done a decent job connecting things, given that A) the original wasn't supposed to be a series starter, and B) the canon is purposefully interpretable, belying scientific analysis.