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SuperDave

2012-07-22, 11:32 AM

A Cinematic History of the World

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01218/pyramid4_1218007i.jpg

A while ago (i.e., grade school), I realized that a shockingly large percentage of American adults have little to no understanding of the historical origins of modern-day laws, customs, religious beliefs, social movements, and violent conflicts which fill our newspapers every day. While part of the blame for this ignorance can be laid at the feet of the American educational system, this doesn't address the issue that lots of people living in this world don't know why things work the way they do, and hence, don't know how to change them, or whether attempting to change them is a good idea.

So I thought to myself, maybe if there were a syllabus out there which people could use to fill-in the gaps in their historical knowledge, maybe that could help reduce ignorance in the world, and help people to better-understand the world they live in, and how to live more effectively within it.

My goal here is to compile a list of films, which when viewed in roughly chronological order, would provide the viewer with a generalized understanding of history’s major characters and events, from the earliest civilizations to the modern world. Ideally, I'd like to give the average person an understanding of history as a living, vibrant, and above all exciting field of study.

Guidelines: This list is not meant to be comprehensive, nor does it aspire to scrupulous historical accuracy. The main intent of this "playlist" is to entertain, and thereby inform, purely as an incidental effect of viewing. As such, historical comedies and farces (such as A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum, or Dr. Strangelove) are not automatically disqualified, as long as they provide some historical perspective to the viewer. Documentaries, though highly informative, are often stale and boring to those who do not study history, and as such should not be added to the list – we’re looking for action here, not just factual information. We want to include the twists, the turns, the inexorable marches towards destiny, the sudden unexpected reversals of fortune, and all the crazy chapters that make up the story of human beings on Earth (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yocja_N5s1I).

Organization: Films will be organized in rough chronological order, from the earliest human societies to the middle of the 20th Century (probably ending with the Space Race - it seems as good an ending-point as any. And we really need a cut-off point, because if we don't have one, this list would go on literally forever). Viewers who wish to increase their knowledge of history would select one or more likely-looking films from each historical era, and watch them in chronological order. Watching all of them wouldn't be necessary; realistically, one film of the viewer's choice from each historical era is probably more than optimistic.

Traab

2012-07-22, 11:36 AM

I was hoping for a remake of this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_World,_Part_I)

SuperDave

2012-07-22, 11:39 AM

Films by Historical Era

Prehistory

The Clan of the Cave Bear (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0090848/)
Quest for Fire (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082484/)

Pre-Columbian Americas

Apocalypto (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0472043/)
Kings of the Sun (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057225/)

Mesopotamia/Bablylon

The Epic of Gilgamesh (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1541109/)

Ancient Egypt

Cleopatra (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0024991/) (1934)
Cleopatra (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056937/) (1963)
The Egyptian (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0046949/)
Land of the Pharaohs (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048283/)
Princess of the Nile (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0047366/)
Sudan (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0038134/)
Faraon (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060401/) (Pharaoh)
Das Weib des Pharao (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0013741/) (The Loves of Pharaoh)

The Sudanic States(Ghana, Mali, and Songhai)

Yaaba (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098684/)
Wend Kuuni (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0084898/) (does this belong here?)
Sia, le rêve du python (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0290858/) (Sia, the Dream of the Python)
Kirikou and the Sorceress (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0181627/)
Kirikou and the Wild Beasts (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0455142/)

Swahili City-States and Indian-Ocean Trade

Ancient Greece

Troy (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0332452/)
Alexander (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0346491/)
300 (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0416449/)
Alexander the Great (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048937/)
Barefoot in Athens (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0197270/)

The Old Testament

The Ten Commandments (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0049833/)
The Prince of Egypt (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120794/)
Samson and Delilah (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0041838/) (1949)
The Bible: In the Beginning... (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060164/)
Abraham (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109036/)
Sodom and Gomorrah (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056504/) (1962)
The Story of Jacob and Joseph (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0072211/)
Joseph (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113483/)
Moses (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0117086/)
King David (http://uk.imdb.com/title/tt0089420/)
Esther (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0133742/)
Esther and the King (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0053800/)

Indus Valley and Ancient India (REQUIRES REORGANIZATION)

The Mahabharata (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097810/) (1989)
Gunga Din
Mangal Pandey: The Rising
Kim
A Passage To India
The Man Who Would be King

The Yellow Emperor (Early China)

The Emperor and the Assassin (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0162866/)
Hero (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0299977/)
Mongol (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0416044/)

Further Chinese History (REQUIRES REORGANIZATION)

Curse of the Golden Flower (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0473444/)
House of Flying Daggers (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0385004/)
Once Upon a Time in China (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0103285/)
The Warlords (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0913968/)

Ancient Rome

Julius Caesar (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0045943/)
Spartacus (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0054331/)
Gladiator (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0172495/)
A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060438/)
The Eagle (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1034389/)
Titus (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120866/)
Satyricon (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0064940/)
The Fall of the Roman Empire (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058085/)

Rome and Christianity
[INDENT][I]Ben-Hur (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0052618/)
Quo Vadis (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0043949/)
Constantine and the Cross (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055867/)
The Sign of the Cross (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0023470/)
The Robe (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0046247/)
Demetrius and the Gladiators (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0046899/)
Agora (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1186830/)

The New Testament

The Last Temptation of Christ (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0095497/)
The Passion of the Christ (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0335345/)
The King of Kings (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0018054/)
The Greatest Story Ever Told (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0059245/)
Jesus (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0079368/)
The Miracle Maker (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0208298/)
The Gospel According to St. Matthew (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058715/)

Romance of the Three Kingdoms (China)

Red Cliff (part I) (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0425637/)
Red Cliff (Part II) (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1326972/)

The Middle Ages

The Secret of Kells (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0485601/)
The Name of the Rose (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091605/)
Tristan + Isolde (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0375154/)
Henry V (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097499/)
The Lion in Winter (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0063227/)
Becket (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057877/)
Beowulf & Grendel (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0402057/)
The Passion of Joan of Arc (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0019254/)

The Buddha

Little Buddha (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0107426/)
Siddhartha (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070689/)
Why Has Bodhi-Dharma Left for the East?: A Zen Fable (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097195/)

Mohammed and the Founding of Islam

The Message (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074896/)
Muhammad: The Last Prophet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad:_The_Last_Prophet)

The Crusades

Kingdom of Heaven (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0320661/)
King Richard and the Crusaders (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0047150/)
Saladin (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057357/)
The Crusades (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0026249/)
Arn: The Knight Templar (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0837106/)

The Renaissance

Elizabeth (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0127536/)
Elizabeth: The Golden Age (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0414055/)
Shakespeare in Love (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0138097/)
The Other Boelyn Girl (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0467200/)
Anne of the Thousand Days (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0064030/)
The Agony and the Ecstasy (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058886/)
Galileo (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0073029/)
Girl with a Pearl Earring (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0335119/)

The Reformation in Europe

Luther (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070346/) (1974)
Martin Luther (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0046051/) (1953)
The Last Valley (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0065969/)
Queen Margot (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110963/)

The Mughal Dynasty (India)

Anarkali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarkali_%281953_film%29)(1953, Hindi)
Anarkali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarkali_%281955_film%29)(1955, Telugu)
Anarkali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarkali_%281966_film%29)(1966, Malayam)
Baiju Bawra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baiju_Bawra_%28film%29)
Humayun (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0142385/)
Jahan Ara (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahan_Ara_%28film%29)
Jodhaa Akbar (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0449994/)
Meera (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meera_%281979_film%29)(1979)
Meera (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meera_%281945_film%29)(1945)
Mughal-e-Azam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mughal-e-Azam)
Pukar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pukar_%281939_film%29)
Taj Mahal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taj_Mahal_%281963_film%29) (1963)
Taj Mahal: An Eternal Love Story (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taj_Mahal:_An_Eternal_Love_Story)
Waris Shah: Ishq Daa Waaris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waris_Shah:_Ishq_Daa_Waaris)

The "Discovery" of the New World (both North and South America)

1492: Conquest of Paradise (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0103594/)
The Mission (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091530/)
The Last of the Mohicans (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104691/)
La Otra Conquista (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0175996/) (The Other Conquest)
The New World (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0402399/)
Aguirre: The Wrath of God (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0068182/)

The Enlightenment

Longitude (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0192263/)
Cromwell (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0065593/)
Valmont (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098575/)
Dangerous Liaisons (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094947/)
Restoration (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114272/)

The American Revolution

1776 (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0068156/)
Revolution (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089913/)
The Crossing (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0210628/)

The Slave Trade

Amistad (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118607/)
Amazing Grace (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0454776/)
The Amazing Grace (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0804225/)
Cobra Verde (Slave Coast) (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094888/)
Xica da Silva (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xica_da_Silva) (The Silver Queen)
Adanggaman (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0262210/)

The French Revolution

La prise de pouvoir par Louis XIV (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060860/) (The Rise of Louis XIV)
La Marseillaise (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0030424/)
A Tale of Two Cities (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0027075/) (1935)
A Tale of Two Cities (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0052270/) (1958)
Danton (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083789/)
Vatel (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0190861/)
Les Misérables (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119683/) (1998)
Marie Antoinette (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0422720/)
Jefferson in Paris (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113463/)

The Napoleonic Era

Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0311113/)
Quills (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0180073/)

The Industrial Revolution

Germinal (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0107002/)
Moulin Rouge! (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0203009/)

The Victorian Era

The Young Victoria (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0962736/)
Zulu (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058777/)
Khartoum (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060588/)
Oliver Twist (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0380599/) (2005)
Disraeli (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0019823/)
Hard Times (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109985/) (1994) (although it's a TV series, it's only 100 minutes long, so I feel it counts as a single film.)
Wilde (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120514/)
The Elephant Man (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080678/)
Her Majesty, Mrs. Brown (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119280/)

The American Civil War

Gone With the Wind (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0031381/)
Gods and Generals (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0279111/)
Gettysburg (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0107007/)
Glory (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097441/)

The Meiji Restoration and Japanese Imperialism

The Last Samurai (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0325710/)
City of Life and Death (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1124052/)

The Captains of Industry, the Robber Barons, and the Gilded Age

There Will Be Blood (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0469494/)

The Russian Revolution

Dr. Zhivago (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0059113/)
Battleship Potemkin (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0015648/)

Imperialism and Nationalism

The Wind that Shakes the Barley (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0460989/)
Sarraounia (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091892/)
Michael Collins (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0117039/)

World War I

Lawrence of Arabia (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056172/)
War Horse (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1568911/)
All Quiet on the Western Front (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0020629/)
Paths of Glory (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0050825/)
My Boy Jack (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0851430/)

The Great Depression

The Grapes of Wrath (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0032551/)
Of Mice and Men (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0105046/)
Citizen Kane (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0033467/)
Inherit the Wind (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0053946/)
Modern Times (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0027977/)
Rabbit-Proof Fence (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0252444/) (does this film belong here?)
The Untouchables (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094226/)
Public Enemies (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1152836/)

The Interbellum Period

Triumph des Willens (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0025913/) (The Triumph of the Will)
Mephisto (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082736/)
Cabaret (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0068327/)
Swing Kids (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108265/)
[INDENT][I]Land and Freedom (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114671/)
Burnt by the Sun (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0111579/)

World War II

Saving Private Ryan (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120815/)
Casablanca (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0034583/)
Letters from Iwo Jima (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0498380/)
Flags of our Fathers (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0418689/)
The Great Escape (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057115/)
Grave of the Fireflies (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0095327/)
The Bridge on the River Kwai (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0050212/)
Das Boot (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082096/)
Enemy at the Gates (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0215750/)
Patton (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0066206/)
Der Untergang (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0363163/) (The Downfall)
Idi i Smotri (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091251/) (Come and See)
Tora! Tora! Tora! (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0066473/)
Midway (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074899/)
Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0037366/)

The Holocaust

Schindler's List (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108052/)
The Diary of Anne Frank (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0052738/)
Sophie's Choice (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0084707/)
The Pianist (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0253474/)
The Boy in the Striped Pajamas (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0914798/)
Die Fälscher (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0813547/) (The Counterfeiters)

The End of Colonialism

Gandhi (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083987/)
The Last Emperor (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093389/)
La battaglia di Algeri (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058946/) (The Battle of Algiers)
Diên Biên Phú (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104105/)
The House of the Spirits (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0107151/)

The Cultural Revolution (China)

Huozhe (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110081/) (To Live)
Xiu Xiu: The Sent-Down Girl (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0115005/)
Farewell My Concubine (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0106332/)

The Cold War

Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057012/)
Ice Station Zebra (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0063121/)
Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1340800/)
The Hunt for Red October
Thirteen Days (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099810/)
The Inner Circle (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0103838/)
Fail Safe (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0235376/)
The Atomic Cafe (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083590/)
The Unbearable Lightness of Being (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096332/)
Good Night and Good Luck (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0433383/)
The Proposition (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0421238/) (does this belong here?)
Evita (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0116250/)(does this belong here?)
State of Siege (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070959/)
Missing (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0084335/)
Death and the Maiden (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109579/)
Z (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0065234/)
The House of the Spirits (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0107151/)

The Civil Rights Movement

To Kill a Mockingbird (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056592/)
Malcolm X (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0068903/) (1972)
Malcolm X (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104797/) (1992)
Men of Honor (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0203019/)
Guess Who's Coming to Dinner? (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0061735/)
In the Heat of the Night (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0061811/)
Blackboard Jungle (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0047885/)

The Space Race

Apollo 13 (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112384/)
October Sky (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0132477/)
The Right Stuff (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086197/)

Bulldog Psion

2012-07-22, 11:50 AM

There's only one problem -- there are no films out there that can cure historical ignorance, even when watched in thousands, compared to one good history book.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2012-07-22, 11:59 AM

Impressively non-Eurocentric. I approve.

Not sure how you're going to avoid the constant "Actually this isn't how things really went" caveats that end up in historical movies, but hey, I love a good historical movie, so!

One of the best historical movie/shows I ever saw is Canada: A People's History. 17 episodes, 32 hours. One of the best dramatical retellings of the history of an entire nation that I've ever seen. It was actually put together by CBC, the government-funded television and radio network, and it's probably the reason why we still HAVE the CBC: this program was so popular it led directly to increased CBC funding.

I'll list the episodes by where I would classify them by Era and subject.

Episode 1 falls under The New World.
Episode 2 falls under The New World/Elizabethan Era
Episodes 3 and 4 deal with New France up until it's taken over by the British, so I'd probably put that under The New World
Episode 5 is The American Revolution
Episode 6 is the Wild West
Episode 7 is the French Revolution (well, not really, but being that it deals with the attempted revolution and the Springtime of Nations in Canada, it's the best place for it to go)
Episode 8 is the American Civil War
Episode 9 is Imperialism I suppose, being as it deals mostly with the country taking over the west... By the way, you should move the Russian Revolution bit after the Imperialism and WWI, and maybe also fold Imperialism more broadly into European Colonialism?
Episode 10 is probably Imperialism as well.
11 and 12 are WWI (and the leadup to)
13 is the Great Depression
14 is WWII
15 is the cold war
16 is loosely Civil Rights movement
and 17 is Space Race (in era, not in theme. In theme, closer to Civil Rights movement)

It's basically the most complete and most interesting and captivating history of my country ever made, and one of the most, if not THE most well-done history documentaries EVER.

If you want to list each episode seperately (they are 2 hours long each, and pretty much count as movies), then I can get the episode names for you, or you can just look at the wiki page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada:_A_People's_History).

Yora

2012-07-22, 12:11 PM

SuperDave

2012-07-22, 12:41 PM

Now a problem is that you have to judge events as significant or not significant to something.

Isn't that the definition of the discipline we call "History"? I'm sure Winston Churchill and Liu Bei and Haroun Al-Raschid all spent plenty of time on the toilet or brushing their teeth. It's the historian's job to cut out all the parts that are irrelevant for the story they're telling. The hygeine of these men probably wouldn't find its way into histories of military conquests, but if you were writing the biography of the man, it might be significant.

I realize that there's absolutely no way we'll ever come up with a comprehensive history of the world here. That would require filming everybody who ever lived on earth, for all of their lives, in full-immersion IMAX 3D, and even then we'd still be missing a ton of information.

I'm just looking to touch on a few of the high points of history, for the benefit of those who don't have the privilege of knowing much about it. A basic understanding of history, painted in broad strokes, is better than no understanding at all.

But supposed you live in India or China. The American Civil Rights Movement or the Empire of Charlemange have no significance at all. If America would still be segregated, what would have changed in China in the last 40 years?

What would be different now? Well, for starters, dissidents like Chen Guangcheng, the blind Chinese lawyer who fled from home arrest a few months ago, would have fewer successful role models to base their efforts on. Also, if America were still segregated, then that would mean one less member of the UN Security Council who's willing to put pressure on China to "lighten up" on its citizens.

Second, I think that as long as there are people out there who live their lives as second-class citizens, that makes life worse for the rest of us to, because that throws off a lot of anger and frustration and crime into the world, not to mention the fact that the discriminated group feels less incentive to improve the world around them, since they gain only a small benefit, if any, from doing so.

And in respect to "the world", these two regions make up less than 20% of all people. A history of the world from the perspective of China and India would explain the world of over 50% of all people. And during the 1000 years of the middle ages, progress didn't stop there and they also had another 1000 years head start.

In regard to the world, our little corner on the North Atlantic played a major part only for the last two centuries, and is now returning to the second row.

What eras would you suggest I add to the list? Do you know of any movies to fill those categories? I'd love to hear them:smallsmile:

The Glyphstone

2012-07-22, 12:50 PM

Would Ice Station Zebra qualify as a Cold War film? It's about as historically accurate as Dr. Strangelove, coming from a thriller/action angle instead of a black comedy angle, but does have some mild historical basis.

Though in terms of submarine Cold War movies, Hunt For Red October is far superior, and again roughly as historically accurate as Dr. Strangelove.

Bulldog Psion

2012-07-22, 12:57 PM

I'd like to suggest:

The Alamo (the one with Thornton, it's actually excellent and I can't see why it's disliked so much) -- probably Victorian.

Open Range -- Wild West.

An Enemy Spy

2012-07-22, 12:59 PM

To Live.
It's a film about a family in China going through the Chinese Civil War and the rise of communism from the 40s to the 60s.

Madcrafter

2012-07-22, 01:01 PM

I thought that Hunt for Red October was pretty good.

Another Cold War film I might suggest is Thirteen Days. I remember watching it in history class when we were studying the Cuban Missile Crisis, and IIRC it captured the feeling of the time pretty well.

EDIT: Another Holocaust one I remember watching a long time ago: The Pianist. I personally don't remember how good it was, but it's on imdb's top 250, so it can't be that bad (IIRC depressing, though that is hardly surprising).

Also, for Cold War/East Germany: The Lives of Others. Haven't personally seen this one, but I know lots of people who thought it was very good.

Also, To Kill a Mockingbird for Civil Rights?

Not based in any history at all AFAIK, but Gladiator for Rome (I don't know how many movies there are set in the Roman Empire; probably quite a few, but I can't think of many).

For some perspective from the German side in WWII (at least a submarine crew): Das Boot, for another, the oft parodied Downfall (haven't seen this one personally). And for the Russians: Enemy at the Gates. POWs: The Great Escape and Bridge on the River Kwai. Americans: Patton, and those already mentioned.

Vietnam War: Full Metal Jacket, Platoon, or Apocalypse Now (and a whole ton of others). For a TV series that is a documentary but still very interesting, the recently aired Vietnam in HD (all real footage too).

For the Wild West: Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2012-07-22, 01:21 PM

A few WWI films: Lawrence of Arabia, All Quiet on the Western Front, War Horse, and Paths of Glory.

Weezer

2012-07-22, 02:07 PM

Roman Empire:
I, Claudius: A TV series, but such a classic that I must mention it. Shows an (admittedly stylized) look at Roman court intrigue during the imperial era. Includes such important figures as Augustus and Caligula.

Combines Rome with New Testament:
Ben-Hur

American Civil War:
Gettysburg: An amazing depiction of one of the deciding battles of the war. Doesn't have an overview of the war as a whole, but a very good ground floor look at it.

Cold War:
Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy: Shows the fatalism and disillusionment that characterized much of the Cold War.

thompur

2012-07-22, 02:26 PM

*The Cold War
Fail Safe

Selrahc

2012-07-22, 03:27 PM

Now a problem is that you have to judge events as significant or not significant to something.

Except by invoking the medium of cinema, that gives am inherent cultural context.

Wild West is a very niche topic as far as world is history is concerned. But it is one that has had a lot of cinematography devoted to it, so it can easily justify being in the list. Probably more so than much more historically significant events.

As defined in the original post, this is a thread giving people a cinematographic jumping off point to understanding world history. Sparking interest and discussion, and maybe being a handy point of reference. With that in mind, I don't think it's terribly productive to get into "The nature of world history" discussions. Although I'm sure if you have periods and movies to add, they could well be included in what looks more like a framework than a strait jacket.

GolemsVoice

2012-07-22, 04:37 PM

"The Lives of Others" can give a good insight into life in the GDR, but also into the life in a paranoid communist country in general, as well as the move "The Inner Circle" for Soviet Russia.

"The Downfall" is a good, if long and heavy movie about Hitler's last days, which isn't a whole lot of history, but it's well made and shows the German side, which is quite rare.

Caivs

2012-07-22, 04:50 PM

The BBC has made quite a few docu-dramas that are as entertaining as most of the movies you mentionned, while being a lot more historically accurate (Even though of course, they are not as informative as a good old book). You might want to take a look at Ancient Rome: the Rise and Fall of an Empire (6 one hour films of critical moments of ancient roman history), Heroes and Villains (6 one hour films of various historical figures such as the Shogun Ieyasu, Hernan Cortez, Richard Lionheart,etc) and Hannibal: Rome's Worst Nightmare (1h30m film of Hannibal's campaigns), and there are some others I forgot.

They're made like movies, with some action-filled scenes, great soundtrack and excellent acting, while teaching a lot more about actual history than cliched hollywood movies.

SuperDave

2012-07-26, 01:20 PM

Wild West is a very niche topic as far as world is history is concerned. But it is one that has had a lot of cinematography devoted to it, so it can easily justify being in the list. Probably more so than much more historically significant events.

I've been having similar thoughts myself. The whole Wild West era is a really culturally-biased term; the English just call the same span of years "The Victorian Era". Furthermore, except for Native Americans, it didn't really have a huge impact on people outside the United States and Mexico. While a section on the destruction of native peoples would certainly be relevant, I unfortunately know very little about Native American cinema. I'm not certain I've ever seen an Indian-directed film, to my knowledge, and never one about the Pre-Columbian Americas.

Maybe the whole Wild West section should be changed to reflect the native perspective more fully, or else be cut out entirely.

In fact, I've been wondering if the American Civil War was really an event of truly international significance for world history. Sure, it ended the market for slaves in one of the larges (and last) nations where slavery was legal, but what about Great Britain's peaceful struggle to abolish the practice? I'm sure that that had much greater resonance for a much larger population of enslaved Africans living in the world's largest empire.

(The same might also be said about the American Revolution, too.)

As defined in the original post, this is a thread giving people a cinematographic jumping off point to understanding world history. Sparking interest and discussion, and maybe being a handy point of reference. With that in mind, I don't think it's terribly productive to get into "The nature of world history" discussions. Although I'm sure if you have periods and movies to add, they could well be included in what looks more like a framework than a strait jacket.

You're quite right, Selrahc. I concur!

SuperDave

2012-07-26, 01:27 PM

Roman Empire:
I, Claudius: A TV series, but such a classic that I must mention it. Shows an (admittedly stylized) look at Roman court intrigue during the imperial era. Includes such important figures as Augustus and Caligula.

While I like the sound of the series, based on how you describe it, I think that we've got to exclude serieses (sp?) from this particular list. Even attempting to assemble a list like this might be aiming a bit high. If we throw serieses into the mix, we'll be here forever.

I guess I like the idea of just sticking to movies for now, because they're self-contained and easy to digest. As soon as people see that a series is 30+ episodes long, they're likely to feel nervous about how long this is all going to take, and then they'll turn the TV back to Real Housewives. It should be easy to come in at any point in the list, and be done with each section in just a few sittings at most.

That said, I think that a thread for outstanding documentaries and/or historical-fiction TV series' would be an excellent idea.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2012-07-26, 01:59 PM

You can also consider them just be era rather than by event, that's how I was. The American Civil War section dealing not just with the war, but with a whole pile of things happening in the 19th century at around the same time.

Raimun

2012-07-26, 02:06 PM

Now a problem is that you have to judge events as significant or not significant to something.

Explaining how Europe or North America came to be as it is now is one thing. There you can make a reasonably continuus string of significant events.

But supposed you live in India or China. The American Civil Rights Movement or the Empire of Charlemange have no significance at all. If America would still be segregated, what would have changed in China in the last 40 years?

And in respect to "the world", these two regions make up less than 20% of all people. A history of the world from the perspective of China and India would explain the world of over 50% of all people. And during the 1000 years of the middle ages, progress didn't stop there and they also had another 1000 years head start.

In regard to the world, our little corner on the North Atlantic played a major part only for the last two centuries, and is now returning to the second row.

Isn't that kind of an understatement? Industrial Revolution changed the world perhaps more than anything else ever and that started in Europe. Other continents might have had more advanced technology in middle ages but that technology consisted mostly of novelties that didn't really impact the lives of normal people. Even if Europe was blasted sky high right now, its impact was huge, regardless of whether or not you agree it's for the best. That's why history is so often eurocentric.

polity4life

2012-07-26, 02:22 PM

How about Dr. Zhivago for your Russian Revolution category? It could go under World War I as well but let's flesh out a presently empty category.

Thought of another: Zulu for the Victorian Era. It's a bit like Saving Private Ryan meeting Seven Samurai all in the backdrop of the Anglo-Zulu War.

SuperDave

2012-07-27, 01:34 PM

I found this really useful list of Old Testament movies (http://www.world-history-movies.com/mesopotamia.html), but I've never watched any of them. Has anyone else seen a few of them, and would be able to make recommendations about which ones are the best?

(At first it looks like there are only two movies in the list, but if you scroll past the eBay ads you'll be able to see the rest of them.)

-----------------

Also, I think we're good on WWI and WWII films at this point. Thanks for all the wonderful suggestions! If you can think of any more, feel free to post your suggestions. I'm just noticing that we've got a lot of 20th-century movies, but we don't have as many concerning the rest of the bulk of human history.

polity4life

2012-07-27, 02:16 PM

For BC era China, however you want to categorize it, you could put in The Emperor and the Assassin. That's one of the best pieces of east asian cinema I've ever seen.

Edit: Let's throw in Mongol for good measure. It's primarily based on the early life of Genghis Khan.

VanBuren

2012-07-27, 02:21 PM

(The same might also be said about the American Revolution, too.)

In what sense? For better or for worse, the United States has has an enormous impact on the face of the rest of the world. So the American Revolutionary War has an international significance because it's responsible for the creation of one of the biggest pieces on the board in the 20th century.

Besides that, would you even have the French Revolution without it?

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2012-07-27, 02:28 PM

In what sense? For better or for worse, the United States has has an enormous impact on the face of the rest of the world. So the American Revolutionary War has an international significance because it's responsible for the creation of one of the biggest pieces on the board in the 20th century.

Besides that, would you even have the French Revolution without it?

The most important thing with the American Revolution would be it's influence on liberal ideology and revolutionary ideals across the world. Of course, most of American Revolution movies you find are going to be chest-thumping nationalism though.

VanBuren

2012-07-28, 03:07 AM

The most important thing with the American Revolution would be it's influence on liberal ideology and revolutionary ideals across the world. Of course, most of American Revolution movies you find are going to be chest-thumping nationalism though.

Part of it is that it's probably easier to make a film of the second on than the first.

Klose_the_Sith

2012-07-28, 07:55 AM

You want to expand the French Revolution section into a French Revolution & Napoleonic Wars section, which Master and Commander fits into (good movie, but it doesn't really show much actual colonialism). I would also propose "The Duellists" for that section, though that is a sometimes contentious pick.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-07-28, 10:31 PM

Got some nominations:

Gangs of New York (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangs_of_New_York): Tells the story of the Union Home Front in New York during the Civil War. Quite authentic, if not wholly accurate (huge difference) portrayal of life at the time and the underlying social issues of the day.

HBO's Rome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome_(TV_series)): Rome is a miniseries (~20 episodes) that seeks to show the Fall of the Roman Republic, from the end of Julius Caesar's Gallic campaign to Augustus' rise to imperial power. Again, the emphasis of the series is the day-to-day lives and society of the common people of the city of Rome.

The Twelve Chairs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelve_Chairs_(1970_film)): The Russian Revolution as told by an ex-noble who seeks to reclaim his lost fortune. Aided by a homeless con-man, the ex-noble sees many aspects of early Soviet Union life as he tries to recover a set of Twelve Chairs his mother sewed her diamonds into to escape the mobs.

Reds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reds_(film)): This movie details the life of one John Reeds, the only American buried under the Kremlin. John Reed wrote a first-hand account of the Russian Revolution entitled, Ten Days that Shook the World, and the movie follows him as he reports on the Revolution, tries unsuccessfully to apply communist ideals to America, and then dies of kidney failure in the aftermath of the Revolution

Aedilred

2012-07-29, 05:26 AM

As an historian, I'm wary of including stuff like Braveheart in the list because they're almost offensively inaccurate. They're fine as fantasy in a quasi-historical setting but there's nothing about it that's really historical. I don't just mean the anti-English propaganda, either, I mean everything. It's a 19th-century romanticised ideal of Scotland with Hollywood characters pasted over the top. The same goes for The Patriot, obviously.

However, if it's going to be included I'd reservedly recommend Gallipoli, the best of the Mel Gibson Anglophobic pseudo-histories, which takes fewer liberties than those above and also had a significant impact on the recent development of independent Australian culture.

Taking my "I hate Mel Gibson" hat off, I haven't seen it but Australia migh be worth a look. Hero isn't a bad take on (a mythologised version of) the story of the unification of China. And, from left field, if you're looking for a potted and entertaining ride through some of the defining moments of postwar American history, you could do worse than Forrest Gump.

There are a number of decent film versions of Shakespeare plays dealing with the Middle Ages. For a brief summary of the Hundred Years' War, Henry V (I think the Hollow Crown version is actually superior in most respects to the Olivier one) isn't too bad.

If you want something on the English Renaisssance, Anne of the Thousand Days is probably a better bet than The Other Boleyn Girl. The Elizabeth films are pretty awful but probably just about accurate enough to qualify.

Alexander and Kingdom of Heaven are definitely worth a look. Neither are amazing films but they're not terrible, and they're about as historically-accurate as films get.

To really put the cat among the pigeons, how about 300? It's stupid, and I can totally see the arguments about borderline racism, but the overall story isn't really any further off the mark historically than many films already suggested.

GolemsVoice

2012-07-29, 06:47 AM

Spiryt

2012-07-29, 07:00 AM

Also that Western world wants to remember it with Matrix and bastardized kung-fu, I guess?

GolemsVoice

2012-07-29, 07:02 AM

If this isn't what happened, why would they show it on TV?

Topus

2012-07-29, 07:16 AM

Also, if you want to spoiler 300 a little, you could say that this is how the (ancient) Greeks chose to remember the story (not with monsters and all, but 300 brave Spartans against the unwashed, depraved masses of the Persian aggressors), and to a certain extent, how the western world chose to remember that story, which can shine a light at how history can be interpreted.

I find 300 (besides his contemporary visionary style) quite sticking to the spirit of the legend of an historic fact. By this film we get an epic feeling that is similar to that feeling that probably felt an ancient greek. In fact it uses modern visual semiotic to drive ancient words.
For me, it's very difficult to make reliable movies about ancient history, because we have a somewhat distorted vision of the real facts, but also of the ethics of ancient people. The result is often movies like "The Gladiator" who is really enjoyable as an entertainment movie, but totally unworth for a deeper comprehension of ancient history.
By the way, 300 has his own value, because it's not a movie about the Thermopilis, but it is a movie about the Legend of the Thermopilis, and it is able to reproduce this legend and make it really enjoyable to modern people.

Spiryt

2012-07-29, 07:23 AM

Maybe I'm weird, but I find it incredibly cheesy and silly, and changed the channel after some 30 minutes...

Although still better than comics, which was incredibly stupid.

Brother Oni

2012-07-29, 07:47 AM

Also, if you want to spoiler 300 a little, you could say that this is how the (ancient) Greeks chose to remember the story (not with monsters and all, but 300 brave Spartans against the unwashed, depraved masses of the Persian aggressors), and to a certain extent, how the western world chose to remember that story, which can shine a light at how history can be interpreted.

This. If you view 300 as a piece of Spartan propoganda (told before a battle with the Persians no less), then its flaws become more acceptable.

I disagree with Memoirs of a Geisha being of any use for this topic though as chronologically it starts about 10-15 years before WW2 and carries on through, so it doesn't depict the Meiji Restoration at all and its focus on the Geisha culture shows very little of Japanese Imperialism.
Letters From Iwo Jima (which you've already listed) or City of Life and Death would be better options, in my opinion.

For the Chinese Cultural Revolution, I'd also like to suggest Farewell My Concubine, which covers the lives of two opera actors from their induction as children into the same troupe, all the way through from warlord era China in the 1920s, through WW2 and the rise of communism, to 1977, just after the Cultural Revolution.

For an unusual view of the effects of colonialism, the first and fourth Once Upon A Time in China films I feel are useful, the first showing European influences on early 1900s China (not to mention what happens when gunpower weapons are introduced to the the heroic kung fu genre), the fourth showing the Battle of Beijing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-Nation_Alliance).

JustSomeGuy

2012-07-29, 09:02 AM

How about 4 Lions as a representation of modern terrorism and islamophobia, from the perspective of britsh muslims? Or Team America as a satire of the UN, USA and 'rest of world' interactions.

Also, i don't think Apocalypse Now is much of a representaion of 'Nam, less so compared to Platoon, which i like to show the war but also the psychological aspects of soldiering (i particularly recall sheen's letters home for this).

GolemsVoice

2012-07-29, 11:36 AM

Maybe I'm weird, but I find it incredibly cheesy and silly, and changed the channel after some 30 minutes...

Although still better than comics, which was incredibly stupid.

Oh, it IS cheesy and silly, although I also enjoyed it to some extent.

But I can totally imagine a Greek man telling the story "And then Leonidas jumped like so, and sliced the Persian leaders head clean off. Meanwhile, his buddy..."

The Glyphstone

2012-07-29, 11:39 AM

Also, i don't think Apocalypse Now is much of a representaion of 'Nam, less so compared to Platoon, which i like to show the war but also the psychological aspects of soldiering (i particularly recall sheen's letters home for this).

It's still one of the quintessential 'Nam movies to some extent, though I agree it's third in line behind Platoon and Full Metal Jacket.

Aedilred

2012-07-29, 06:21 PM

I've not seen Platoon; I much preferred Apocalypse Now to FMJ, though. I thought the Vietnam sequences let FMJ down dramatically, although the first half was awesome.

I generally support the idea of viewing 300 through the spectrum of cultural memory of an event (going right back to the contemporaries of it) - I think this is basically the spirit in which it was written.

I do draw a distinction between that and stuff like Braveheart, because Braveheart largely created the myth, whereas 300 fed off an existing one. That gives it a kind of extra validity for me.

HeadlessMermaid

2012-07-30, 01:03 AM

I think it's entirely possible to be misinformed by entertaining historical films, but eh, what can you do. Read books, right? :smalltongue:

The Russian Revolution (prelude): Battleship Potemkin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Battleship_Potemkin) (1905)
World War I: Blackadder Goes Forth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackadder_Goes_Forth) (1914-1918)
The Spanish Civil War (broader category: The Rise of Fascism, or Prelude to WWII): Land and freedom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_and_Freedom) (1936-1939)
Word War II: The Counterfeiters (Die Fälscher) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Counterfeiters_%28film%29) (1936-1945), Come and See (Idi I Smotri) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idi_i_smotri) (1943), Grave of the Fireflies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grave_of_the_fireflies) (1945)
The End of Colonialism: The Battle of Algiers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_battle_of_algiers) (1954-1957)
The Cold War: The Atomic Cafe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Atomic_Cafe)

P.S. If it matters, Apocalypse Now is set in Cambodia, not Vietnam.

SuperDave

2012-07-30, 11:42 AM

Well, the consensus appears to be that the American Revolution stays. I guess I was just over-compensating for my natural cultural bias towards seeing my own country's history as exceptionally important. Sometimes it's hard to tell "what's really important to world history" from "what American audiences like to watch."

However, I think it's fair to say that the Wild West, while it had a great effect (largely through movies and TV) on the American consciousness, it didn't really have a lot of repercussions for anyone outside North America (at least, not directly or immediately).

As for Braveheart and other Mel Gibson movies, I thought I would include them, despite the grievous historical inaccuracy, because they're popular and familiar. But on further consideration, they may be a bit too partisan to really teach viewers to think critically about history. We're looking to expand viewpoints, not narrow them.

While there have been great suggestions for Vietnam Era movies, like Platoon and Forrest Gump, I think that they're little after the time-frame. Make no mistake, they are great movies, but as you go forward in time, the number of movies set in a given historical era increases dramatically, especially after the invention of film. We need to set a cap on it somewhere. In fact, it might make more sense to limit the scope of this series to events which occurred outside of living memory. What say you all to this? It seems like an arbitrary-but-fair endpoint to work backwards from.

SuperDave

2012-07-30, 12:05 PM

Also, if you want to spoiler 300 a little, you could say that this is how the (ancient) Greeks chose to remember the story (not with monsters and all, but 300 brave Spartans against the unwashed, depraved masses of the Persian aggressors), and to a certain extent, how the western world chose to remember that story, which can shine a light at how history can be interpreted.

That is an excellent point, GolemsVoice. Although the film is extremely racist, perhaps including offensive films is a good way after all to start conversations about history and cultural memory. Though the list is intended to teach about history,

This actually brings up a point I've been wondering about: do we include movies with alternative or subversive takes on historical events? Case in point: The Birth of a Nation (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0004972/), one of the most shockingly racist films that most people will ever see, was once hailed as the first truly great film in American cinema, and was adored by critics, historians, and even the president of the United States himself. (http://www.whitehousemuseum.org/east-wing/theater.htm) I think it's fair the say that the film is a little biased, could it not also teach a lot about how we choose to view and interpret history?

But then again, that might be too similar to the discussions which cropped up earlier in this thread about how to determine historical significance in the first place. If this list gets too "meta", it might cease to focus on showing the viewer "how stuff went down", and get bogged down in endless conversation on the politics of history.

JustSomeGuy

2012-07-30, 01:26 PM

It's still one of the quintessential 'Nam movies to some extent, though I agree it's third in line behind Platoon and Full Metal Jacket.

I dislike Apocalypse Now mostly because it comes across to me as way more of a 'boat trip' movie set in a warzone than a war movie that happens to use a boat. The zany circumstances:combat ratio is a bit off for my taste - although that being said, Dog Soldiers is (in my opinion) one of the better moveis at representing soldiering and soldiers.

HeadlessMermaid

2012-07-30, 05:27 PM

Case in point: The Birth of a Nation (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0004972/), one of the most shockingly racist films that most people will ever see, was once hailed as the first truly great film in American cinema, and was adored by critics, historians, and even the president of the United States himself. (http://www.whitehousemuseum.org/east-wing/theater.htm) I think it's fair the say that the film is a little biased, could it not also teach a lot about how we choose to view and interpret history?
That's a good point. If you go for it (I wouldn't worry about "endless conversation" in this particular forum, due to the blanket ban on politics :smallwink:), perhaps you should also include Leni Riefenstahl's Triumph of the Will (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0025913/) (1934), as a Prelude to WWII.

I'll try one more time to pitch The Battle of Algiers (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058946/). It touches a very delicate subject without flinching from its ugliest aspects, and yet manages to neither idealize nor vilify anyone. This subject is of enormous importance for the end of colonialism in Africa. And finally, if it matters, it's an amazing film, with stunning visuals (realistic enough to look like newsreel footage, and at the same time breathtakingly beautiful) and unconventional storytelling (in a sense, the protagonist is not a person, it's the casbah itself).

For the same category, I'd also suggest Dien Bien Phu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dien_Bien_Phu_%28film%29) (1954), because the subject is equally important: the fall of Dien Bien Phu marked the very first time that a colonial power suffered a decisive defeat, initiating a domino effect. But I haven't seen it, so I don't know how balanced or accurate it is. And if anyone knows of a decent film about Patrice Lumumba or the Congo Crisis in general, I believe it should be included too.

Finally, for the Civil Rights Movement, I'll do the obvious and suggest Malcolm X (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104797/).

Kurgan

2012-07-30, 05:31 PM

Hmmm...it is not a perfect fit, but The Proposition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Proposition)could work for western imperialism. It is basically a western, but set in Australia.

If you wanted to take a look at Germany in the 1920s and 30s, you can do a lot worse than Mephisto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mephisto_%281981_film%29). This follows the tale of an actor who ingratiates himself with the Nazi party in order to build up his career, and is modeled on the tale of Faust.

HeadlessMermaid

2012-07-30, 06:55 PM

More!

The New World: 1492: Conquest of Paradise (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0103594/) (1492-1503), The Mission (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091530/) (~1750)
The French Revolution: Danton (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083789/) (1794)
The Cold War (South America): Evita (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0116250/) (~1952), State of Siege (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070959/) (~1970), Missing (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0084335/) (1973), The House of the Spirits (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0107151/) (1970's), Death and the Maiden (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109579/) (~1970's)
The Cold War (Europe): Z (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0065234/) (1963), The Unbearable Lightness of Being (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070959/) (1968)

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-07-30, 07:59 PM

I still say Gangs of New York for Civil War Era, Twelve Chairs for Revolutionary Russia and HBO's Rome for...Rome.

Aedilred

2012-07-30, 08:47 PM

Well, the consensus appears to be that the American Revolution stays. I guess I was just over-compensating for my natural cultural bias towards seeing my own country's history as exceptionally important. Sometimes it's hard to tell "what's really important to world history" from "what American audiences like to watch."
I think the American Revolution (or as we call it over here, the American War of Independence) is an important historical event and worth including, not necessarily because of its immediate significance or impact but because it's the starting point of one of the superpowers of recent history. Whether anything else from American domestic history would make my cut... well, that depends on the number of films the project is planning to include.

Cromwell (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0065593/) might be worth a look for the same reason. It's not a great film, but it's decent, and close enough to actual history not to set off my alarm bells. Although I can't stand Cromwell as an individual, this is probably as close as you're likely to get to the "starting-point" of modern British history in film. Unless anyone knows of any good Glorious Revolution films.

I would very much like to recommend Vatel (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0190861/), as I think it captures the peak of the ancien regime (not to mention the beginnings of the legendary modern French cuisine) better than any other English-language film I've seen (and better than a number of French-language films, including the turgid 1990 Cyrano de Bergerac), but the actual events depicted are probably too minor to merit inclusion overall. Perhaps La Prise de Pouvoir de Louis XIV (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060860/), about which I have heard good things but not seen, would be more suitable... but getting hold of it would probably be a royal pain.

Karoht

2012-07-30, 09:08 PM

The Lion in Winter-Plantagenet England under King Henry II, sets up Prince John and Richard very nicely, leads right into any of the tellings of Robin Hood you might care for. Not highly entertaining though, but some great acting. I'm refering of course to the Peter Otoole version.

Dances with Wolves. Not sure what era that goes in, if that is Wild West or early America.

Do we feel that Rob Roy and/or Braveheart deserve to go on the list? The historian in me says not so much, but they were pretty decent films.

Did anyone mention the Ghandi biopic yet? I didn't see it, just thought I'd mention it.

HeadlessMermaid

2012-07-30, 10:40 PM

Cromwell (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0065593/) might be worth a look for the same reason. It's not a great film, but it's decent, and close enough to actual history not to set off my alarm bells. Although I can't stand Cromwell as an individual, this is probably as close as you're likely to get to the "starting-point" of modern British history in film.
I was about to suggest this, when I realized it didn't fall under a given category, so I let it go. But now that someone mentioned it, I'll chip in. If I had to choose what's more important in the grand scope of things, I'd pick the English Civil War before the American one - with the understanding that it set off reforms which would only be concluded much later. And so many conflicts exploded during that period (political, social, religious, national, whatever) that the ripple effect was staggering. Given that the political system of England would affect - via the British Empire - a large part of the world for a long long time, I think it's a pivotal point in history.

The movie was decent, though it didn't manage to present all conflicts - for example, the conquest of Ireland was left out completely IIRC. Then again, the whole business was frightfully complicated, and you can't expect a film to cover everything.

SuperDave

2012-08-01, 11:01 AM

I've been very, very pleased with the outpouring of support which this thread has been getting; I just want you all to know that.

I've been adding movies left and right, and it's rapidly becoming clear that there are not enough categories to really capture the depth and breadth of history across the world. What others would you recommend? We really can't go on filing every Chinese history movie under "The Yellow Emperor," but I don't know their history well enough to propose categories of my own.

I've seen recommendations for several films, mainly South American but a few from other continents and eras (including The Proposition, Evita, State of Seige, Missing, Death and the Maiden, Z, and
Cromwell) which don't really have a place in the categories I've written out so far. The South American ones are technically about European colonies, so they could go under "Colonialism", but they're also about "The New World", and they're also set in the 20th century, but they're not really part of the major social movements of that century (though they would certainly help Americans gain a better understanding of South American life and culture.) Does this separateness from the rest of world events indicate that they're regional-interest films, and shouldn't be included in this list?

Also, I think it's time to call for a moratorium on World War II films. The war is an incredibly popular subject for filmmakers, and the era already contains more movies than any three eras combined. This makes the list seem a little heavy on the 20th-century, especially when there are whole eras of history that still haven't gotten a single film. I understand that there aren't as many movies about the historico-mythological hero-king Sundiata Keita (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sundiata_Keita) as there are about D-Day, but if we're expanding horizons, then it doesn't really help to cover and re-cover a historical era which most Americans are already familiar with.

P.S. Bonus points to anyone who can find a movie about Sundiata!:smallwink:

HeadlessMermaid

2012-08-01, 05:34 PM

I've seen recommendations for several films, mainly South American but a few from other continents and eras (including The Proposition, Evita, State of Seige, Missing, Death and the Maiden, Z, and Cromwell) which don't really have a place in the categories I've written out so far. The South American ones are technically about European colonies, so they could go under "Colonialism", but they're also about "The New World", and they're also set in the 20th century, but they're not really part of the major social movements of that century (though they would certainly help Americans gain a better understanding of South American life and culture.) Does this separateness from the rest of world events indicate that they're regional-interest films, and shouldn't be included in this list?
First of all, I'd like to say that categorizing even simple things is always arbitrary to a degree, and a huge pain. You are trying to categorize the entire human history. That's just scary. So take it easy. Begin by acknowledging that there's no one way to do it, no perfect way to do it, and no universally accepted way to do it. For sanity's sake. :smallsmile:

Now, since I suggested most of the films about South America, let me explain why I filed The Mission under "The New World" category, and the rest under "The Cold War". The Mission is about the Guarani, an indigenous people of South America, and how they interacted with the European Church(es) and colonialists, circa 1750. The others are about South American states (specifically Chile, Argentina and Uruguay) after WWII. And these states had already gained independence from Spain back in the 19th century.

So the films are not about the End of Colonialism, or about the New World in the sense of discovery and conquest by European powers. They are about conflict during the Cold War, because that's what defines South America (and a large part of the world) during that period: governments under the sphere of influence of this or that superpower, clashing ruthlessly with their own people, who are deeply divided among themselves, too.

Every country has its own peculiarities, of course. But take The Unbearable Lightness of Being (about the Prague Spring in 1968) and The House of the Spirits (about Pinochet's coup in Chile, in 1973). They refer to different countries, in different continents, with different superpowers in charge which use different means of intervention. But in essence, they're both battlefields of a single worldwide conflict. So they should be filed under the same category, that of The Cold War.

And for that matter, so should Good Night, and Good Luck (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0433383/). Acknowledging, of course, that all categories are arbitrary to a degree. :smalltongue:

P.S. I may be guilty of overlapping here. Missing, State of Siege, The House of the Spirits, and Death and the Maiden basically talk about the same thing. (Evita is another animal.) If you want to choose fewer for the sake of brevity, here's some more info, to use as you please:

The House of the Spirits is the most mainstream one: successful in the box office, all-star cast, big fancy production etc. Although the book was written by the daughter of Allende, in the end it's more about reconciling with the ugly past, and therefore has some rounded edges. It's a fictitious romantic story, in a (mostly) realistic setting.
State of Siege is the most classic, and the most important one for film buffs. It's based on actual events, and it depicts fantastically the era, and the mindset of different factions. It's the most historically accurate film, and IMHO, the best.
Missing, by the same director and in the same vein, is based on events disputed to this day. More famous and emotional than State of Siege, it features an amazing Jack Lemon.
Death and the Maiden is pure fiction, set in an unnamed South American country. It tells us less about history and more about the human condition under extraordinary historical conditions. I included it because the general climate was depicted pretty well (even though the entire movie is set inside a house, and all we have is the story told by the protagonists), and because the acting by Sigourney Weaver and Ben Kingsley was truly haunting. Seriously: goosebumps.

Kurgan

2012-08-02, 01:53 AM

I haven't seen the movie, but Sunshine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunshine_%281999_film%29)looks like a good movie to include on this list. It does unfortunately tread over World War II again, but from what I have read, it still seems worth a look.

The film follows through three generations of a family of Hungarian Jews, from the end of the 19th century until the failed revolution against communist rule.

Here, found the trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdJXlNgnQTk)for it too.

razark

2012-08-02, 08:30 AM

World War II
Tora Tora Tora, Midway, and 30 Seconds Over Tokyo

The Space Race
The Right Stuff

SuperDave

2012-08-02, 09:44 AM

First of all, I'd like to say that categorizing even simple things is always arbitrary to a degree, and a huge pain. You are trying to categorize the entire human history. That's just scary. So take it easy. Begin by acknowledging that there's no one way to do it, no perfect way to do it, and no universally accepted way to do it. For sanity's sake. :smallsmile:

Too right, HeadlessMermaid. Too right. I need to take a deep breath and relax. This is a pretty enormous undertaking. No need to stress out or over-think it.

Thanks for your input on the aforementioned movies. I'll add them to The Cold War right away.

But that still leaves the question: Where should Cromwell go, if anywhere?

Aedilred

2012-08-02, 08:00 PM

From existing categories, Cromwell could go in either with "Newton and the Enlightenment", where it happens roughly contemporaneously with and provides a political context for the first Enlightenment philosophers (Locke, Spinoza), or with "European Colonialism", where it sets the scene for Britain's colonial expansion (most of the West Indies, Britain's most consistently lucrative colonies for most of its imperial history, were added by Cromwell; the rest followed thereafter.)

I would also move Vatel to "The French Revolution": I think chronologically it takes place after Louis XIV.

Having said that, I'd be inclined to create a new category altogether of "The Reformation in Europe", or something along those lines, and put all the above films in it. None of them fit entirely comfortably within existing categories - they're a little late for the Renaissance but early for the Enlightenment and French Revolution.

There are probably a lot of other good Reformation films, although I can't think of many (in particular, some about Martin Luther would be good). I wonder whether The Three Musketeers (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0072281/) (1973) and The Four Musketeers (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0073012/) (1974) could find a place. Most Musketeers films are dreadful but these follow the books fairly closely and as a result aren't a million miles off historically, although they are strictly adventure films in an historical setting rather than historical films.

I'd also suggest The Glass Crow (http://vimeo.com/15362160), an arty (but very short) animated film for the same category, which briefly covers the Thirty Years War, with particular focus on the Defenestration of Prague.

Slightly surprised it's not been mentioned yet (unless I've missed it) but I think Cabaret (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0068327/) would fit nicely into the interbellum/Great Depression period.

HeadlessMermaid

2012-08-02, 09:19 PM

Having said that, I'd be inclined to create a new category altogether of "The Reformation in Europe", or something along those lines, and put all the above films in it.
I concur. (Though I have nothing helpful to add.)

Slightly surprised it's not been mentioned yet (unless I've missed it) but I think Cabaret (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0068327/) would fit nicely into the interbellum/Great Depression period.
I concur! Basically, "The Great Depression" can stay as is, since it's an important subcategory, but an "Interbellum" or "Interwar Period" category would fit nicely a lot of things: Cabaret, Mephisto, Land and Freedom (which has no business before WWI, or under "Nationalism and Imperialism" unless I'm missing something), and, come to think of it, Triumph of the Will, too.

Oh, and since we're talking categories, The Counterfeiters is set inside a concentration camp, so maybe it should be filed under "The holocaust" and not generally "WWII" - my mistake.

SuperDave

2012-08-07, 09:48 AM

Thanks so much for the outporing of support and ideas which have been showered upon my little thread!

I've been trolling the internet for more films from the eras that still need work, and I've found these to be quite useful. I've already added a few of them to the list, but let me know if you're reminded of any others that need to be included.

Fordham University: Modern History in the Movies (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/modsbookmovies.asp)

Screen Junkies: Industrial Revolution Movies (http://www.screenjunkies.com/movies/genres-movies/war-movies/industrial-revolution-movies/)

----------

As a matter of fact, we've found so many great films for this list that I think it may be necessary to cut back a little on the list's length.

We don't want to overwhelm the viewer with a lengthy and impossible-to-digest menu of films. We want to give them just a few options to pick and choose from. Only the best and most entertaining films should be included here, to maximize enjoyment on the viewers' part.

Can anyone see any reason for certain films to be removed from the list? I'm sure we don't need two instances of Cleopatra, A Tale of Two Cities, or Anarkali.

What's more, I selected a lot of the films I haven't seen based on having famous cast members and directors, but even experts can make mistakes. Are any of the movies on the list already famous for being box-office flops, were panned by critics and the public alike, or would be seen by the bulk of the general populace as "unwatchable"?

Aedilred

2012-08-07, 11:42 AM

Logic

2012-08-08, 06:35 PM

Tora Tora Tora, Midway, and 30 Seconds Over Tokyo

Great recommendations for WWII. A few more non-US and GB centric could improve this list.

SuperDave

2012-08-09, 10:29 AM

The one that jumps out at me most from that list is Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves. It's a fun film, but elements of it have become a bit of a joke (Kevin Costner's diabolical accent, principally). The historical period in which it's set is also rather muddled, so I wonder how much of value there is in there for the purpose of this project.

It's been years since I watched this movie. I saw somewhere online that it's a pretty good movie about the Crusades, so I just added it to the list without remembering the accent. I guess I'll take it out.

Given the number of film about Troy on the list, too, some of them could probably be cut. In fact, although it pains me to say it, I wonder whether the Trojan War really needs to be included at all. Obviously the legend is of enormous cultural importance for Western civilisation, but it is definitely a legend, so far removed from anything that might have actually happened as to be to all intents and purposes entirely fictional - as opposed to things like 300, where, although mythologised, it is still based fairly closely on identifiable historical events. I think the Trojan War sits closer to things like Beowulf or even Lord of the Rings than to real history.

On the other hand, you might think it's too important to leave out, which I would completely understand. In any case, a couple of them could probably go. Of those listed I've only seen Troy, which I didn't find overly impressive by any measure, but it might be better than the others - I don't know.

While the Trojan War is partially mythological, archaeologists have uncovered (http://www.usnews.com/usnews/culture/articles/040524/24troy.htm) what they believe are the ruins of several successive cities called Troy, one on top of the other. So it does have some grounding in historical fact.

Additionally, the Trojan War is one of the oldest and most famous artistic subjects of Western Civilization. For centuries, every single person who was educated in the Western world knew the story of Helen and the thousand ships, practically by heart. Furthermore, it's a pretty exciting story, which makes the tale a good one to include in a playlist of entertaining historical movies.

But I think you're right, there are too many movies about the Trojan War. I think I'll stick with Troy: while I'm not sure if it's the best (I've never seen it), it is the most recent major film about the Trojan War, and hence contains actors that most viewers would recognize. Familiar faces and titles will make people more likely to watch these movies, after all.

Aedilred

2012-08-09, 11:14 AM

Oh yeah, I know that Troy was a real place, but there's very little, if anything, to suggest that the story immortalised in the Trojan War legends is any less fictional than, say, Theseus and the Minotaur, which seems to be a representation of the Greek mainland asserting its independence from Crete, or the stories of the Heracleidae conquering the Peloponnese.

The thing which bothers me about Troy (in general) is that, aside from, I think, not being a very good film, it's also not a very good representation of the Trojan War legend. So many of the key features and characters are left out or changed that it's only very loosely the same story. But, as I say, I'm unable to suggest anything better, and as you say, the War is an important cultural touchstone.

VanBuren

2012-08-10, 02:39 PM

Great recommendations for WWII. A few more non-US and GB centric could improve this list.

Letters from Iwo Jima?

Logic

2012-08-10, 05:32 PM

Letters from Iwo Jima?

That is still a pretty US forces centered movie. A good one, but there are a great deal of US and UK WWII movies.

ForzaFiori

2012-08-10, 07:59 PM

For movies about British Indian: I suggest Gunga Din, Mangal Pandey: The Rising, Kim, A Passage To India, The Man Who Would be King, and Gandhi. While pretty much all of them have bias (though whether it's pro-British or pro-Indian depends on the movie), they do tell the basic story of a fairly important time in Indian history. most of those above were used in my British India class two semesters ago, and I loved them all (though Gandhi had some dry moments), the others I've watched just cause they seemed cool. They also cover a large amount of time, from early in the British control of India, up to the eventually division and independence of India and Pakistan, and take place in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and India (though only in Hindustan, rather than the Deccan. I don't know any movies set in the Deccan that are really historically accurate)

VanBuren

2012-08-11, 12:58 AM

That is still a pretty US forces centered movie. A good one, but there are a great deal of US and UK WWII movies.

Are you sure you're not confusing it for a different movie? It's almost exclusively focused on the Japanese viewpoint.

Brother Oni

2012-08-12, 10:11 AM

Are you sure you're not confusing it for a different movie? It's almost exclusively focused on the Japanese viewpoint.

I think Logic is looking for a movie that doesn't involve British or US forces.

I mentioned City of Life and Death, although it's more a 'effects of the war' style WW2 film like Schindler's List or Grave of the Fireflies, rather than a shooting WW2 film.

Enemy at the Gates is about the only shooting film on the list that doesn't involve British or American forces directly or indirectly; Das Boot kinda does although you never see them, and I haven't seen Der Untergang or Come and See.

@Superdave
May I suggest removing House of Flying Daggers as it doesn't really cover its historical period very well (it could really be set at any point in Chinese history). The 'heroic China' view is already covered by Curse of the Golden Flower and Hero, in my opinion.

In its stead, I'd like to suggest The Warlords (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0913968/), which covers the late 19th century Taiping Rebellion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion), which neatly sets up why China was so weak to resist foreign influence later on (its legacy is felt in Once Upon A Time In China) and why it was unable to take advantage of Japan's unrest at the time (it was busy with its own civil war).

Interestingly enough, you have two films (The Emperor and the Assassin and Hero) which both cover the event (the attempted assassination of the King of Qin and the unification of China), one from a character POV, the other from a more wuxia POV.
Is this intentional, or was it because we just need more films in this category?

HeadlessMermaid

2012-08-13, 02:30 AM

Enemy at the Gates is about the only shooting film on the list that doesn't involve British or American forces directly or indirectly; Das Boot kinda does although you never see them, and I haven't seen Der Untergang or Come and See.
Come and See is like that. Wikipedia has a pretty detailed article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idi_i_smotri) about it. It's hands down the most brutal war film I've ever seen in my life, and I suggest you all brace yourselves and watch it (preferably before reading the plot in Wikipedia, because it obviously contains spoilers).

The Downfall is about the last days of Hitler. So enemy forces are (indirectly) involved. Not sure why this is a problem, it's also a marvelous film. (Of course, the million "Hitler gets angry with X" videos on YouTube may have ruined its most memorable scene forever...)

SuperDave

2012-08-13, 10:46 AM

@Superdave
May I suggest removing House of Flying Daggers as it doesn't really cover its historical period very well (it could really be set at any point in Chinese history). The 'heroic China' view is already covered by Curse of the Golden Flower and Hero, in my opinion.

In its stead, I'd like to suggest The Warlords (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0913968/), which covers the late 19th century Taiping Rebellion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion), which neatly sets up why China was so weak to resist foreign influence later on (its legacy is felt in Once Upon A Time In China) and why it was unable to take advantage of Japan's unrest at the time (it was busy with its own civil war).

Interestingly enough, you have two films (The Emperor and the Assassin and Hero) which both cover the event (the attempted assassination of the King of Qin and the unification of China), one from a character POV, the other from a more wuxia POV.
Is this intentional, or was it because we just need more films in this category?

It wasn't really intentional. I haven't seen either Hero or House of Flying Daggers, but I've heard their names many times over the years from Chinese and Wuxia film buffs, so I thought they were probably good enough to include. I didn't even realize that they're about the same thing.

That's a problem I find myself running into pretty frequently with this list. There are WWWWAAAAAAYYYYYY more films here than I could possibly have seen, and in many cases all I've got to go on when I decide whether or not to include a given film is the IMDB average rating, the plot summary, scanning the cast-list for famous and respected actors, and whether I've ever heard the title before.

And, to be honest, I really haven't seen that many Chinese or Indian movies. I'm a little better with Japanese, but this portion of human history is, to my shame, largely unknown to me.

This actually segues nicely into another thought I've been having: How finely should we subdivide the various eras of Chinese (and other) histories? For example, if you just want to give a broad picture of the human story, is it really necessary to include one or more films from EVERY dynasty in Chinese history? Could some of them be skipped? Could two or three films stand for a broad stretch of history, and fill the viewer in on most of the details?

Furthermore, how many lines should we draw between different eras? Do we make it as simple as possible, with categories like "Ancient China", "Imperial China", and "Modern China"? Do we throw the "Warring States/Romance of the Three Kingdoms" in there as well?

For that matter, the same questions apply to Indian and Japanese history as well. As conversation-fodder, I'm just going to leave these here:

History of Japan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Japan)
History of China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_China)
History of India (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_India)

P.S. I notice that there's not really any space devoted to Australia and New Zealand either. I guess that Rabbit-Proof Fence counts, and I could return Australia to the list, but should terra incognita australis get its own separate historical era? Or should films about Australia be included under "European Colonialism", "Nationalism and Imperialism", and the World Wars?

ForzaFiori

2012-08-13, 07:55 PM

Klose_the_Sith

2012-08-13, 08:10 PM

Regardless of how we divide it, I think Rabbit Proof Fence needs to be on the list. Not many people (at least, in America. Not sure about the rest of the world) really knows what happened to the Aborigines.

Not many people in Australia know, but that's more to do with the average Australian giving no cares about history that doesn't involve straight-up Nazi punchin' by heroic diggers.

HeadlessMermaid

2012-08-14, 09:25 AM

Not many people in Australia know, but that's more to do with the average Australian giving no cares about history that doesn't involve straight-up Nazi punchin' by heroic diggers.
That's not an Australian (or American) feature, it's a global phenomenon of the education system - beginning formally in schools and extending to the press, entertainment and everything. Every country has a tendency to teach primarily the history of the nation, giving much less attention to the history of humanity as a whole. And every country has a tendency to gloss over the unflattering aspects of its own history, and focus on whatever can be perceived as triumphs.

Which is why this thread is such a marvelous idea, limitations of the method (it's not like you can find a film for every important event and period in history, and a lot of things will remain obscure and/or lopsided) notwithstanding. :smallsmile:

Madcrafter

2012-08-14, 12:01 PM

nedz

2012-08-16, 07:26 PM

This (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HollywoodHistory) is relevant.

Apologies, now if only there was a non-US version.

Histories, of course, are a reflection of the society which writes them.

ForzaFiori

2012-08-16, 10:18 PM

Well, maybe not in Canada. The average immigrant knows way more than a regular Canadian in my experience, mainly because Canadian history is pretty much ignored in schools (but being from the west coast, I don't really know how it is in Ontario, where I would guess such things might be a little more common).

Although if they changed the curriculum to just spending a year watching Canada: A People's History, there might be a lot more interest. That series was good.

Same in the US. Most natural citizens couldn't pass the test for citizenship. You have to know all the presidents, and a bunch of other stuff that they don't even teach in school anymore. I don't see how counties in the "Old World" ever manage to teach history - You can't even touch ever major topic in US history in a class, let alone the thousands of years of history that other countries have.

nedz

2012-08-16, 10:59 PM

Same in the US. Most natural citizens couldn't pass the test for citizenship. You have to know all the presidents, and a bunch of other stuff that they don't even teach in school anymore. I don't see how counties in the "Old World" ever manage to teach history - You can't even touch ever major topic in US history in a class, let alone the thousands of years of history that other countries have.

A list of Presidents sounds quite pointless.
We don't actually have that much more history.

Pre-Roman - no history
Romans - didn't write all that much stuff down
Migration period - only half a dozen original sources
Middle Ages - several centuries where not a lot happens
Early Modern - Age of Discovery (Routes to Asia, Circumnavigations, Discovery of the Americas)

History and Archaeology are fairly popular and we have loads of museums.

Madcrafter

2012-08-17, 12:30 AM

Well, having been to some of those museums, I can say that they tend to have a lot of the rest of the world's history as well (yay for colonies!). I don't know if it gets taught or not in schools though.
Still relatively speaking, I know much more British/French etc. history than I do Canadian. Whether its because Canadian schooling is eurocentric or just Europe has more interesting history I'm not sure. Canadian history just isn't that interesting. At least the US had a few wars, and slaves, and stuff like that (again not taught in school, most of my US history comes from TV shows and documentaries).

Klose_the_Sith

2012-08-17, 10:26 PM

I would like to propose Blood Diamond and Hotel Rwanda for either 'The End of Colonialism' or possibly some other section on modern African conflict. They both have the benefit of being superb movies and about an often overlooked era in peoples conception of history. Lots of people know that things in Africa *were* bad, but these are nice looks at why that's so.

Well, having been to some of those museums, I can say that they tend to have a lot of the rest of the world's history as well (yay for colonies!). I don't know if it gets taught or not in schools though.
Still relatively speaking, I know much more British/French etc. history than I do Canadian. Whether its because Canadian schooling is eurocentric or just Europe has more interesting history I'm not sure. Canadian history just isn't that interesting. At least the US had a few wars, and slaves, and stuff like that (again not taught in school, most of my US history comes from TV shows and documentaries).

Highly relevant to this discussion. (http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=198)

My input needs to be prefaced with the fact that my particular region of Australia (The ACT / Canberra) has a different education system and thus cannot necessarily speak for the rest of the nations curriculum. My comments on straight-up Nazi punchin' were based off of what I know through friends, family, acquaintances, wargaming etc.

The history we were taught in Australia is a very vague 'Settlement' (you get the barest bones of the First Fleet, Gold Rush et al.), The Stolen Generation (though not really the White Australia Policy), Aboriginal Dreamtime and I also got Ancient Egypt. I elected to do some more History in High School (all history from this point on is optional) which gave me Ancient Greece and Post-Colonial African Conflicts (which can be summarised by watching the film 'Blood Diamond').

The standard of history at uni so far is very high and I've been told that the history taught to military cadets is also quite good.

ForzaFiori

2012-08-17, 11:46 PM

A list of Presidents sounds quite pointless.
We don't actually have that much more history.

Pre-Roman - no history

Prior to the romans there was a massive celtic culture spread, if not in England, then in the rest of the UK. Stonehenge, and the lesser known henges, were built by the dominant tribes of the area - some of the best known stone-aged ruins in the world

Romans - didn't write all that much stuff down

The ROMANS didn't write stuff down? They were the masters of bureaucracy. The roman invasion occurred shortly after Julius Caesar, and London (Camulodunum at the time) began turning into the major city it would become. It's also when many historians believe the King Aurthur legends started, or were first based, at least.

Migration period - only half a dozen original sources

This I'll give you - the dark ages are a little sparce, but there were multiple viking invasions, as well as the famous invasion of Edward the Conqueror in 1066, which caused English to become what it is today, as well as the Magna Carta - the basis of most modern constitutions.

Middle Ages - several centuries where not a lot happens

The Hundred Years War, as well as the Crusades took place here, as well as (I believe) the conquering of Ireland, officially making the UK the UK. Oh, and there was the Elizabethan age - You were so powerful there named a period after your queen. This is also the time of the Shakespeare and Cornwall, and the Spanish Armada

Early Modern - Age of Discovery (Routes to Asia, Circumnavigations, Discovery of the Americas)

England started BOTH industrial revolutions, and had massive amounts of the earliest inventors. She also had some of the worlds foremost explores, and founded your famous Empire during this time, Each branch of which has it's own storied history behind it (each nearly as long as American history is total)

History and Archaeology are fairly popular and we have loads of museums.

Of course, AFTER the Early Modern period, you have the depression, the World Wars, the loss of the Empire, that whole IRA mess, the Cold War, and modern history.

Selrahc

2012-08-18, 04:08 AM

We don't actually have that much more history.

It looks like you're conflating your personal knowledge of history with reality.

EDIT:

Of course, AFTER the Early Modern period, you have the depression, the World Wars, the loss of the Empire, that whole IRA mess, the Cold War, and modern history.

I don't think you know that much British history, since you're making several pretty massive blunders. :smalltongue:

Just off the top of my head: London didn't start towards becoming a major world city until the 1600's; King Arthur Legends are believed to be based off post-Roman Britain; Dark Ages Britain had a lot of sources going for it; it didn't involve the Magna carta which was firmly middle ages, Britain was conquered by William the Conqueror(from Edward the Confessor); the Norman conquering of Ireland into a protectorate didn't make the UK and even the Tudor assumption of Kingship of Ireland didn't unify the kingdoms but rather created a dual monarchy (the UK was actually formed in 1707, with Ireland joining it in 1801); Shakespeare, Cromwell, Elizabeth et al. are all part of the Early Modern era rather than the medieval one.

Eldan

2012-08-18, 05:56 AM

Our history lessons were... hm. Not exhaustive, shall we say.

We covered, in about this sequence:
Ancient Egypt in a very strange way in primary school. I don't think I knew anything more about it afterwards than before. We certainly treated it as one culture that somehow just managed to survive for 4000 years.

Columbus discovering America.

The Industrial revolution.

World War 1.

World War 2.

Then High school.

The birth and spread of Christianity. More as a political than a religious thing, really, dogma was never much mentioned. More things like Paulus and the Roman Empire, the various first churches and sects, and how they formed into what we had in the middle ages.

Similar for Islam, though very, very briefly. I don't think that helped much.

The Crusades.

Reformation through Enlightenment. Though here more the philosophy than any of the actual politics. I.e. we never really talked about any of the religious wars.

The American Revolution and Civil War.

European Imperialism and the Industrial Revolution.

World war 1, again.

The thirties in Germany.

World war 2, again.

The Cold war, extremely briefly. I wouldn't consider it really covered.

We left out a lot of interesting stuff. And we never really covered Switzerland, interestingly. It was always Germany, France, Austria, England, Spain. We also never had Napoleon, even though he basically founded Switzerland as it is today. Or the Swabian wars, when we split from the Holy Roman Empire. I never had anything on Ancient Rome, the middle ages (not properly, at least), anything much outside of North America or Europe, apart from "And then Africa was colonized", any mention of South America or Asia, really...
Yeah, I probably learned more by myself than I did in school.

nedz

2012-08-18, 09:13 AM

It looks like you're conflating your personal knowledge of history with reality.

Actually I know a great deal about history. Now my comments were a little flippant, but my basic sub-text was that history is based upon what was written down. That is: it requires actual documentation.

Before the Romans there are no documents. A lot of what the Romans wrote down was unreliable, or has been lost. Camulodunum was the name for Colchester, Londinium was the name for London. London was abandoned by the Saxons.
Historians don't believe in King Arther, these were stories created in the Middle Ages. Since these myths can also be found in Brittany, they probably relate to the Romano-British/Anglo-Saxon conflict, but no one really knows.

There are very few written sources during the migration period, I have read them all.

Edward William the Conqueror beat King Harold in 1066.

Magna Carta was signed as a consequence of the Anarchy Baron's War- a period of civil war during the Middle Ages.

I was very flippant about the Middle ages, but the Elizabethan period is the start of Early Modern.

I could write more, but the Wall-of-Text would completely de-rail this thread.

Selrahc

2012-08-18, 06:26 PM

but my basic sub-text was that history is based upon what was written down. That is: it requires actual documentation.

Not necessarily... physical evidence is just as much part of history as documents are. Physical evidence is a little more roundabout that people just writing things, and if you have documentary evidence then it is often better to go with that. But physical evidence is definitely a part of the historical record.

I'd also say that non-primary sources are also valid. We may not have direct written accounts by witnesses, but there are often histories written which did have access to them and give us a fuller understanding of events. Foreign documents can also be used to piece together the picture of the history of the time.

Aedilred

2012-08-18, 06:45 PM

Documentation is a useful shortcut for historians that avoids having to deal with archaeologists. But it's far from the be and end all of history. Just because not a lot was written down doesn't mean nothing of interest or value happened.

nedz

2012-08-18, 06:54 PM

Well I tend to view physical evidence as Archaeology rather than History. Now this may just be a semantics type argument, because at the end of the day it all comes down to evidence, and the quality of that evidence.

All sources have their issues; primary, foreign or otherwise.

HeadlessMermaid

2012-08-18, 08:40 PM

I'll try to, umm... re-rail the thread. :smalltongue:
If we're including The wind that shakes the barley, we might as well add Michael Collins (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0117039/).

ForzaFiori

2012-08-18, 09:48 PM

I don't think you know that much British history, since you're making several pretty massive blunders. :smalltongue:

Just off the top of my head: London didn't start towards becoming a major world city until the 1600's; King Arthur Legends are believed to be based off post-Roman Britain; Dark Ages Britain had a lot of sources going for it; it didn't involve the Magna carta which was firmly middle ages, Britain was conquered by William the Conqueror(from Edward the Confessor); the Norman conquering of Ireland into a protectorate didn't make the UK and even the Tudor assumption of Kingship of Ireland didn't unify the kingdoms but rather created a dual monarchy (the UK was actually formed in 1707, with Ireland joining it in 1801); Shakespeare, Cromwell, Elizabeth et al. are all part of the Early Modern era rather than the medieval one.

Yea, I'd like to apologize for my butchering of English History. It was passed midnight and I should have been asleep. I promise I'm not normally that bad at the subject. (I'm STILL hitting myself over calling William the Conqueror Edward :smallfurious:) Though I will say that my point was the massive amounts of history in England, from the paleolithic to modern times. As much as any other European nation, at the very least.

now I'm gonna crawl away in shame at screwing up so horribly at what I want to teach someday. :smallannoyed:

On topic: The Crossing, which is about Washington crossing the Delaware on Christmas eve, is both an amazing movie, and historically accurate (my favorite combination!)

SuperDave

2012-08-28, 10:56 PM

OK, sorry about that uncustomary delay. I've been having the most difficult time logging in, lately.

I've already added The Crossing and Michael Collins to the list. That's it for now. More to follow, but I've really got to get to bed.

eyeofsaulot

2012-08-29, 12:15 AM

This comic is relevant. (http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=342) :smalltongue:

That said, I think this is a cool idea and I've got my own suggestions:

Vision (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0995850/) is about the life of Hildegard von Bingen, a Medieval woman who was a 'Renaissance man'.

The Barbarian and the Geisha (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0051398/) (1958) is about the first US ambassador to Japan, taking place just before the Meiji Restoration.