Mana system

[Silverfang]

I'm planning on getting together a group in my area to run a Pathfinders campaign soon, but the magic system really bugs me. I've been trying to think of an effective mana system for a little while now and the only one I can come up with feels a bit overpowered to me: Spell level= mana cost and mana= the number of spells you can cast times its spell level. Does anyone have any better suggestions/ways of improving/ think that's actually good?

[Jack Zander]

Take a look at the Psionics system. It's basically a mana pool.

[dascarletm]

I'm planning on getting together a group in my area to run a Pathfinders campaign soon, but the magic system really bugs me. I've been trying to think of an effective mana system for a little while now and the only one I can come up with feels a bit overpowered to me: Spell level= mana cost and mana= the number of spells you can cast times its spell level. Does anyone have any better suggestions/ways of improving/ think that's actually good?

Spellpoints from Unearthed Arcana. Call them Mana :smallwink:

[eggs]

Spell Points gets some wonkiness for shoving the existing spell mechanics into a different system. Casters turn all their junk low-level spells into high-level encounter-enders without much trouble.

Ernir did a nifty magic system rewrite here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194002) that I've used a few times. Members of my group shoved some additional PF classes into the system (Synthesist and Magus) without making any major changes to either set of mechanics. The one complaint with the un-altered PF translation was that the Magus ran into some Lurk-like PP issues.

[Silverfang]

Take a look at the Psionics system. It's basically a mana pool.

That's a good idea, but what should I do about classes that have more spells than others for balance reasons (I.E. Wizards vs Soccerers) and how should I determine how much each spell is worth?

[Silverfang]

Spellpoints from Unearthed Arcana. Call them Mana :smallwink:

This is pretty good. Thanks.:smallbiggrin:

[Yora]

The standard Spell Point system suffers from translating all spell slots to spell points 1 to 1. But while you will often find yourself at the end of the day with spells you never got an opportunity to use, this never happens with spell points.

So I'd say reduce the number of spell points to 80 or 60% of the number that is given. Even for sorcerers, since with spell points you can basically convert a couple of "1st level slots" into very high level "slots".

[The-Mage-King]

Honestly, Silverfang?

I'd just drop the core magic system and go with Psionics. Simpler, quicker, and the second book with 6 more classes than the base rules, and other stuff will probably be uploaded to D20PFSRD soon. Oh, and it's better written than the basic magic system. :smalltongue:

[Yora]

I have to agree that psionic powers have a degree of elegance to them, which a simple spell-point conversion does not have. Augmentation looks like variable caster-level at first, but there's actually a lot of cool fiddling about with the power.
Charm Person, Charm Animal, Charm Aberration, Charm Dragon? You learn one power and you decide what creatures you can affect by just pumping a few more power points into it. Or changing the energy type of any elemental spell with no added drawback or feat.

I think the only thing that's missing is "cure wound" and "neutralize poison", for everything else, there are powers that can do it.

[The-Mage-King]

I think the only thing that's missing is "cure wound" and "neutralize poison", for everything else, there are powers that can do it.

Eh. Technically, a Vitalist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/vitalist) gets to do that... :smalltongue:


Like, seriously. There's a heal yourself (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/n/natural-healing) power, which can be transfered through the Vitalist's collective. Hell, the mender method can heal up to his level for free when transfering wounds.


And Resist Toxin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/r/resist-toxin) is the latter, when augmented. :smalltongue:

[Ernir]

I see Eggs has already mentioned my 'brew. I may be biased, but I think you should listen to him. Especially if you're already thinking about translating some spells over to psionic mechanics.

If you're looking for something with the name "mana", Dragoonwraith has a system like that. (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Mana) (But I haven't tried it. :smalltongue:)

That's a good idea, but what should I do about classes that have more spells than others for balance reasons (I.E. Wizards vs Soccerers) and how should I determine how much each spell is worth?
This becomes a bit of a moot point, as there isn't really a Prepared vs. Spontaneous distinction when using Psionics.

If you're going to overhaul the classes, it is a rather natural extension of 3.5 to give the Wizard more spells known and the Sorcerer more mana/spell points, but the numbers should depend on what else you're going to do to distinguish the classes.

I think the only thing that's missing is "cure wound" and "neutralize poison", for everything else, there are powers that can do it.
Psionic party buffs are really lacking in general. As are summons (you have Astral Construct, and you better like it). Battlefield control is way more limited.

There's usually something that can get the job done, but how the amount of refluffing and shenanigans required to do so vary quite a lot.

[Silverfang]

Whatever its called, mana, spellpoints, etc., it doesn't really matter. I'm going to keep hold of all these options and base it around whatever my group wants to do. It will be a while before I get to run this campaign, but I thought of it just after my last group disbanded (4e). I couldn't get the idea out of my head and thought that I'd try PF this fall. Thanks Everybody:smallsmile:

[JeminiZero]

That's a good idea, but what should I do about classes that have more spells than others for balance reasons (I.E. Wizards vs Soccerers)

Psionics handles the Wizard vs Sorcerer mechanic as Erudite (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060406b) vs Psion. Erudite can learn a wide variety of powers, but (supposedly) cannot use all of them at once. Instead, he chooses a certain number of unique powers from all that he knows, which he can use for that day (but once he has chosen a power, he can manifest it repeatedly as long as power points mana holds out). Just as a wizard can learn lots of spells but cannot prepare all at once.

Note that Erudite as written is horribly broken, in that he effectively has no meaningful limit to manifesting past level 4 or so (because the way it is phrased, he gets unique powers PER LEVEL per day). If you use this option, I recommend giving him unique powers for all levels per day, and giving him 1 per manifester level (so 1 UPPD at ML 1,2 UPPD at ML 2 etc).

[Anyr]

Psionics handles the Wizard vs Sorcerer mechanic as Erudite (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060406b) vs Psion. Erudite can learn a wide variety of powers, but (supposedly) cannot use all of them at once. Instead, he chooses a certain number of unique powers from all that he knows, which he can use for that day (but once he has chosen a power, he can manifest it repeatedly as long as power points mana holds out). Just as a wizard can learn lots of spells but cannot prepare all at once.

Note that Erudite as written is horribly broken, in that he effectively has no meaningful limit to manifesting past level 4 or so (because the way it is phrased, he gets unique powers PER LEVEL per day). If you use this option, I recommend giving him unique powers for all levels per day, and giving him 1 per manifester level (so 1 UPPD at ML 1,2 UPPD at ML 2 etc).

Psionics Expanded includes a Pathfinder update for the Erudite. Rather than being a unique class, it's simply an 'advanced discipline' for the Psion. They have a small number of flexible power slots whose contents they can change each day, when they meditate to recover power points. Unfortunately, this flexibility comes with a lot of drawbacks which (IMHO) aren't worth shouldering. All in all, I'd rather just stick with a standard Psion.

[ThiagoMartell]

I always thought Wilder was the psionic Sorcerer

[Spuddles]

I have to agree that psionic powers have a degree of elegance to them, which a simple spell-point conversion does not have. Augmentation looks like variable caster-level at first, but there's actually a lot of cool fiddling about with the power.
Charm Person, Charm Animal, Charm Aberration, Charm Dragon? You learn one power and you decide what creatures you can affect by just pumping a few more power points into it. Or changing the energy type of any elemental spell with no added drawback or feat.

I think the only thing that's missing is "cure wound" and "neutralize poison", for everything else, there are powers that can do it.

Unless you don't mind the flavor of psionics, the refluffing would be quite a chore.

[Kavurcen]

The only problem I have with mana in D&D: spam. What's to stop it?
Without a fixed number of spells, a direct mana conversion would mean nothing. The easiest thing to do would be add cooldowns, and now you're tabletopping League of Legends.

[lsfreak]

The only problem I have with mana in D&D: spam. What's to stop it?

That you have a very limited number of spell points, not even enough to cover the normal amount of spell slots you'd get in Vancian?

[Kavurcen]

That you have a very limited number of spell points, not even enough to cover the normal amount of spell slots you'd get in Vancian?
The only thing (don't want to say problem or benefit) about that is you're making a significant change to the way classes are balanced, and not just significant in the obvious way that casting works differently. You'd have to figure out how to rebalance the traditional arcane classes because the balance between some of them would no longer exist. This using the example of a very basic mana conversion, since obviously if you're using psionics this is a different issue, as they're written around the system.
But that's the reason I like the system for prepared casting. It prevents spamming of spells by adding an extra dimension of restriction (the way cooldowns would) as opposed to stopping endless fireballs by giving casters a lot less of fireballs and everything else. As far as verisimilitude goes, it makes a lot more sense for a caster to "run out of arcane energy" than to flat out "run out of fireballs" though.
My point (if I have one, I guess) being that adding an extra dimension to the casting system is preferable to numerical restrictions.

[Ernir]

I always thought Wilder was the psionic Sorcerer

Kind of. The ability score dependency and power vs. powers/spells known comparisons between that and the Psion line up nicely. But they use the same manifesting mechanic - for a categorical increase in flexibility, you need to go to the Erudite.

[Absol197]

I found this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227916) on the forums here a while back, and I rather like it. It changes things about a lot though (one of the big things is that this is supposed to be the only casting class), so it probably won't work that well if you just pick it up and drop it into your game.

[ericgrau]

Spell Points gets some wonkiness for shoving the existing spell mechanics into a different system. Casters turn all their junk low-level spells into high-level encounter-enders without much trouble.
This.

The simplest solution I can think of would be to do costs similar to psionics. But the number of points you get should be enough to cast your highest level spell only a little more than a wizard of the same level could cast it. That keeps people from abusing it on too many high level spells. They still won't want to cast low level spells as often, but the option to do so will be there in case a particular low level spell is handy in a certain situation.

The second issue to deal with is that it helps wizards more than sorcerers, because they get most of the benefits you get from being spontaneous: the ability to distribute your magical power on the fly rather than figuring it out ahead of time or only getting 1 of each. For that you could make all casters prepared, make all casters spontaneous, or figure out something to counterbalance the extra benefit to prepared casters.

[Jack Zander]

If you brew your own, try using an exponential value for each spell level. Example:
Level 1 spells cost 1
Level 2 costs 4
Level 3 costs 9
Level 4 costs 16
etc.

With this method, you can't trade away the equivalent of 9 1st level spells to get a 9th. It's more like 81 1st level spells instead. Now you just have to go through each level and see how many points would be equivalent to x number of spells per day per level.

[CTrees]

If you brew your own, try using an exponential value for each spell level. Example:
Level 1 spells cost 1
Level 2 costs 4
Level 3 costs 9
Level 4 costs 16
etc.

With this method, you can't trade away the equivalent of 9 1st level spells to get a 9th. It's more like 81 1st level spells instead. Now you just have to go through each level and see how many points would be equivalent to x number of spells per day per level.

Unfortunately, this works backwards as well - that one ninth level slot can be used to spam 81 first level spells, or even just nine thirds or five fourths, which combined with things like Reserves of Strength can be quite worthwhile.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'd just go with Psionics and reflavor it as magic. *shrug*

[ericgrau]

Ya, reducing the relative cost of low level spells inevitably leads to the reverse problem: the party is walking around with 17,000 low level buffs. That's why I'd prefer to acknowledge that the player isn't going to cast both high and low level spells very often in such a system (rather, mostly one or mostly the other) and simply set the limits according to the one that he will use.

[Jack Zander]

Ya, reducing the relative cost of low level spells inevitably leads to the reverse problem: the party is walking around with 17,000 low level buffs. That's why I'd prefer to acknowledge that the player isn't going to cast both high and low level spells very often in such a system (rather, mostly one or mostly the other) and simply set the limits according to the one that he will use.

How are 17,000 mage armors stacking again? Casters still have a limit to their spells known, and even druids and clerics only have a few worthwhile low level buffs. It'll be more like each character has shield of faith, barkskin, and shield up at all times, and none of those are on the same classes' spell list. Plus, is the party really going to be able to stop after every encounter to reapply their spells? Most adventures I've run, if the party really wanted low level buffs up at all times, they found a way to make it happen through wands, speedy adventuring, or the like. I don't think someone spamming grease all day is any better off than if they had been using a single encounter ending spell like stinking cloud.

[ericgrau]

It's an exaggeration, you can still drop 6-10 hour/level or 10 min/level buffs on each and every party member in the morning. Or spam invisibility on the whole party before every semi-dangerous situation, etc. Regardless it merely starts to favor low level spells instead. In combat it makes less of a difference, but there are things you can do out of combat and if you have the capability to do it literally 50 times, there are ways to exploit it even if it used to be inferior in the old casting system.

[Doug Lampert]

It's an exaggeration, you can still drop 6-10 hour/level or 10 min/level buffs on each and every party member in the morning. Or spam invisibility on the whole party before every semi-dangerous situation, etc. Regardless it merely starts to favor low level spells instead. In combat it makes less of a difference, but there are things you can do out of combat and if you have the capability to do it literally 50 times, there are ways to exploit it even if it used to be inferior in the old casting system.

Magic item costs go 1:6:15:28:45:66:91:120:153 (with level 0 being cost 0.5). This ratio does result in lots of low level casting items where they are useful. But it doesn't break the game and high level characters CAN afford lots of low level spells pretty much at will.

There simply aren't enough really useful low level spells for this to matter, you can all be invisible, but most of your foes by high level don't care about invisibility. Are you really wasting 24 spell points per possible encounter on 4*invisibility when by the end of an adventuring day that could easily be the difference between having a Gate spell available and having a cone of cold available?

DougL