[PF] Spell Critical Vs. Indestructible

[meemaas]

So the question i have is, according to pathfinder rules.

If an Eldritch Knight 10 rolls a critical threat on an Level 20 Armor Master fighter with the Indestructible Class feature.

Can the Eldritch Knight roll to confirm his crit, and if successful, use the Spell critical ability? Even though the target is immune to crits themselves.

Or is the Eldritch Knight unable to even roll, because the target is immune to crits, and Spell critical is therefore useless against him?

My argument is that the knight can still roll, but the crit damage won't take place. Since confirming is just another roll, that turns the threat into a crit, i should be allowed my free spell. My friend believes that the indestructible feature means i can't even score a threat on him, and even if i could, i can't roll because it doesn't mean anything. Who is right?

Both class features spoiled below to save you time.
Indestructible

At 20th level, an armor master gains complete immunity to critical hits and sneak attacks while he is wearing armor. In addition, unless his armor has the fragile armor quality, it cannot be sundered while he is wearing it.

Spell Critical

At 10th level, whenever an eldritch knight successfully confirms a critical hit, he can cast a spell as a swift action. The spell must include the target of the attack as one of its targets or in its area of effect. Casting this spell does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The caster must still meet all of the spell's components and must roll for arcane spell failure if necessary.

[Savior]

Yeah, this is freaking weird. I assumed that, because the first hit was a simple threat, the whole confirmation ROLL, was then negated because of the immunity.

[The-Mage-King]

...


Yeah, you should be able to make the confirmation roll. I mean, he's only immune to the extra damage, which only occurs after the critical hit is confirmed.


Sure, you confirm the crit, but he takes normal damage, and you get the spell.

[grarrrg]

If an Eldritch Knight 10 rolls a critical threat on an Level 20 Armor Master fighter with the Indestructible Class feature.

Can the Eldritch Knight roll to confirm his crit, and if successful, use the Spell critical ability? Even though the target is immune to crits themselves.

Or is the Eldritch Knight unable to even roll, because the target is immune to crits, and Spell critical is therefore useless against him?


Armor Master gives Immunity to Critical Hits (and sneak attacks).
Immunity (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Immunity-Ex-or-Su-) means:

A creature with immunities takes no damage from listed sources. Immunities can also apply to afflictions, conditions, spells (based on school, level, or save type), and other effects. A creature that is immune does not suffer from these effects, or any secondary effects that are triggered due to an immune effect

After additional research, I have concluded that...this be messed up dawg...

It looks like your friend may be right. As the Eldritch Knight ability is a "secondary effect triggered due to..." and "The spell must include the target of the attack as one of its targets or in its area of effect".

NOTE: You still roll the Confirm though, because other things may trigger on a Critical that would NOT affect the target. Gore Fiend (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/gore-fiend-combat), for example, would still regain you a round of Rage, even though no Critical damage was dealt. While regaining the round of Rage is a "secondary effect triggered" it does NOT do anything to the opponent (the "not suffer from" clause).


If the target DIDN'T need to be included in the spell, then you would be able to use the ability, just that you couldn't target him with the spell.


EDIT: original argument spoilered pending further investigation.
The Indestructible ability looks based on the Fortification (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor#TOC-Fortification) property, something that an Armor Master Fighter automatically gains anyway.

Fortification only stops the extra damage.

Now we move on to specific wording.
If it says "damaged with a critical hit" then it would not function, as no Critical damage was done.
If it just says "confirmed a critical hit" then it only cares if you made your confirm roll.

In the case of Eldritch Knight it says "eldritch knight successfully confirms a critical hit".

So you are correct, you can cast a spell as the follow-up.

[Kamai]

By RAW, it would look like that being immune to critical hits also doesn't give you a chance to confirm the critical hit. I'm away from my books, but it doesn't look like it worded like an elemental burst weapon, where you're allowed to roll the crit confirmation even if the target's immune to criticals.

Edit: From seeing posts above, I thought you couldn't even confirm the critical if they were immune unless there was wording saying otherwise.

[Ernir]

I found a FAQ entry (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/pathfinder-faq#TOC-Fortification-and-Critical-Immunity) for this. Dunno how official those things are.

[The-Mage-King]

Armor Master gives Immunity to Critical Hits (and sneak attacks).
Immunity (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Immunity-Ex-or-Su-) means:


After additional research, I have concluded that...this be messed up dawg...

It looks like your friend may be right. As the Eldritch Knight ability is a "secondary effect triggered due to..." and "The spell must include the target of the attack as one of its targets or in its area of effect".

NOTE: You still roll the Confirm though, because other things may trigger on a Critical that would NOT affect the target. Gore Fiend (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/gore-fiend-combat), for example, would still regain you a round of Rage, even though no Critical damage was dealt. While regaining the round of Rage is a "secondary effect triggered" it does NOT do anything to the opponent (the "not suffer from" clause).


If the target DIDN'T need to be included in the spell, then you would be able to use the ability, just that you couldn't target him with the spell.

Thing is... It isn't the critical hit that causes the spell to be cast. It's the confirmation roll. The Crit fails, but the confirmation roll goes through, giving the EK his spell.

[meemaas]

And that right there is the crux of why we had the arguement.

[Axel_Neco]

Digging around in the books shows the following (don't know how to do links to srd, so an education on how to do so would be nice):

Magic Weapons and Critical Hits: Some weapon qualities and some specific weapons have an extra effect on a critical hit. This special effect also functions against creatures not normally subject to critical hits. On a successful critical roll, apply the special effect, but do not multiply the weapon's regular damage.

Some creatures are called out to be immune to critical hits, and they list it as not be subjectable critical hits. Combined with the above stated, you don't get to do the 1d8+2 with the critical multiplier of X2, but you do get the additional 1d10 of fire damaging if it is a flaming burst weapon. You still have to roll to confirm the critical hit for the bonus effects, you just don't get the regular effects.

Distilled down: You still roll to confirm, ignore the normal bonuses for critical hits, add any specials that come up. So the EK's ability should work. At least that's how it seems to me.

[grarrrg]

don't know how to do links to srd

Write as normal.
Pick the word(s) you want to use as your link, for example, I shall use the word "Pathfinder".
If you know the web address already, fine, if not, I suggest opening another browser tab/window and going to where you want to link to.
In the Other Website tab, Highlight and 'copy' the address.
In the forum tab, Highlight the chosen word(s).
Just above where you type your post there is the "fonts" "sizes" "bold" etc... click the "Globe w/Chain under it" (right below the White Smiley face).
A 'Web Address Entry Box' should appear (in IE you may get a "allow pop-ups?" message instead, allow).
Paste your Web address into the box.
You'll wind up with something looking similar to this
URL="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/"]Pathfinder[/URL
Except it will have brackets [] on the front and back.
It will work like this Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/)


Distilled down: You still roll to confirm, ignore the normal bonuses for critical hits, add any specials that come up. So the EK's ability should work. At least that's how it seems to me.

We know for certain that you still roll to confirm.

The problem is what, exactly, constitutes a "secondary effects".

Flaming Burst and friends are somehow NOT counted as "secondary effects".
Presumably Critical feats (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/critical-feats) ARE counted as "Secondary effects".

The question we NEED to answer is whether EK's ability is "secondary" or not.


For now at least, ask your DM to decide how it would work.

[meemaas]

We were doing an Arena battle between each other. By all standings, i am the DM, but this is the first time its come up where it would be debatable.

[grarrrg]

i am the DM

Then you win :smallbiggrin:

[T.G. Oskar]

We were doing an Arena battle between each other. By all standings, i am the DM, but this is the first time its come up where it would be debatable.


Then you win :smallbiggrin:

Excuse me, but when does the DM actually "win" in here? The DM is a referee, an adjudicator in all conflicts, and makes a decision after listening to the arguments.

On topic: it seems Spell Critical is a rider effect to a critical hit, in the same way Flaming Burst is a rider effect to a critical hit. The crux of the argument is whether it relies on successfully dealing a critical hit or if it relies merely on its confirmation.

If the first argument has greater weight (you need to actually deal the damage in order to do the effect), then the argument goes like this: Indestructible negates the critical hit entirely, thus it denies the Eldritch Knight the ability to cast a spell as a swift action.

If the second argument is correct (you only need to confirm the threat; damage is irrelevant), then the Eldritch Knight may cast a spell as a swift action, even if the rest of the damage cannot pass through. The spell doesn't necessarily automatically hit the target (unless it's a targeted spell that requires no touch attack; otherwise, you need to touch the creature, which may provoke another critical hit, which may THEN be negated), so it essentially relies on the opportunity provided by striking a vital spot.

This is more of a "judgment call" than trying to appellate to the rules themselves. The rules don't incline to one way or another, so it's the DM's decision to adjudicate one or another. The DM doesn't "win" here (you may say that he "wins" the argument by default, but making an adjudication isn't necessarily a "victory" as it may be used in the future against a further adjudication, which may lead to a "loss"), but rather makes a choice to solve an argument. "Winning" involves that there was no need for an argument because the DM was biased towards one side; the DM is trying to give weight to both sides, and thus cannot (and shouldn't) be biased. Just adjudicate the result and jot it down for further arguments.

Though, if you wish to hear my opinion: it behaves like Flaming Burst or precision damage. It doesn't get modified by a critical hit; as with Flaming Burst, it gets enabled on a successful critical hit. Based on that, you may adjudicate towards the second argument, because it doesn't rely on dealing critical damage, but merely confirming it.

[grarrrg]

Excuse me, but when does the DM actually "win" in here? The DM is a referee, an adjudicator in all conflicts, and makes a decision after listening to the arguments.

...giant smiling faces are not to be taken at face value...
PUN!

[meemaas]

And that's why I came here with the question. The games are meant to be fair, so i can't just say I'm the DM, I win. That said, I appreciate all the help, and it seems the general concensus was in favor of my reading.