A spell to compel PCs to do something unsavory

[madtinker]

This is for my Machines of War (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13597392#post13597392) game, so INWRanger, ManWhoIsThisMan, and Curf06 please do not read any further.

The PCs have begun negotiations for their own surrender after breaking and entering an unfriendly mercenary establishment. The leader is possibly willing to accept their surrender (both to avoid a TPK and because it could be interesting) if he thinks he can use the PCs to advance his own ends. That is, he wants them to assassinate an as yet undecided important political figure.

So we can play this two ways: the PCs agree to do it, which leaves them open to breaking their deal. Or, we find a way to magically compel them to do it (or convince them that they are magically compelled).

Spellcasters available include a 8-10 level sorcerer and a 11-13 level cleric, both evil. There is always mark of justice, but can anyone out there give me something a little more creative?

[Jarian]

Done and done. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/geasQuest.htm)

[Flickerdart]

You don't need a spell. Just promise them a really nice reward. They're PCs, not some sort of moral paragons of virtue.

[Snowbluff]

Or, you know, he could just lie. Geas and the like are just a pain to play under, and not very fun in general.

Have him order away their guards and talk to them amicably, explaining that the leader is actually evil. For example, whoever sent them against the mercenaries did it knowing they would get captured or killed. The PCs should get all pissed off and/or suspicious for some interesting inter player dynamics.

[eggs]

Just to echo the last couple posts:

Mind controlling PCs is a good way to get the players to think up excuses to miss the next session.

Mentioning that the character might, maybe, be a demon in disguise, and that there might, maybe, be a reward for the demon's head is where some of the best D&D fun comes from. And will probably end up with the character hacked into little bits.

[Slipperychicken]

Mind controlling PCs is a good way to get the players to think up excuses to miss the next session.

As a player with experience in the matter, saying the PCs are mind-controlled is exactly one step better than "No, you kill the politician, and don't tell anyone. It's what your character would do". And that's ****ing terrible. You have better ways to do this. Maaaybe a kill-switch if you're feeling really paranoid, but not out-and-out Domination. Might as well reroll at that point.

If you take away the players' agency (ability to make meaningful decisions), why are they at the table? You can roll the dice yourself, you already wrote the story, all they're doing at that point is serving as unpaid amateur voice-actors for your novel. And I can tell you now, they won't be doing it for long.

[Varil]

I can see where the above posters are coming from, but I'm not convinced magical coercion is entirely bad, as long as it isn't straight-up dominate. Leave loop-holes for the enterprising player to find, or ways for the spell/curse/whatever to be broken. As long as it's a plot-hook and not a plot-rail, it can be done well.


That said, the idea of the bad guy just convincing the players they're under a curse is awesome. Have him go through all the motions of apparently cursing the players(use stuff like blindfolds and blatant lies to keep players from easily identifying the spell being used via spellcraft), and then thoroughly explain the consequences for disobeying. Head exploding, soul-trapping, stuff like that. Make it sound impossible to break(as opposed to an actual curse with a loophole, this is a lie that sounds like it lacks any loopholes). To top it all off, make sure he explains that the spell itself has been masked with powerful anti-detection magic. It's fine if the player mage thinks it sounds ridiculous, that's half the point. Let them be suspicious, paranoia breeds entertainment.

[Mystral]

You should really talk to your players if they are cool with this and explain your viewpoint on this issue.

Also, a geas would be easily detectable by a simple detect magic (strong enchantment magic is not something pcs are normally carrying around)

[Mnemnosyne]

Geas isn't that bad, really. It doesn't specify how you must accomplish what you're supposed to, and it doesn't establish any specific parameters under which you must work, other than to specify that you must work toward the quest each day. And if you fail to do so, all that happens is you take 3d6 damage and get sickened, which almost certainly won't kill you (directly, at least).

Of course, it's also easy to remove, by bopping it with a limited wish. Personally, I'd basically research a higher-level version of geas that requires that the caster level of all forms of removing it be at least 2 higher than the caster of the geas. That way you can pump your caster level really high, then apply the geas, and it will be very difficult to remove. If the players want to find out why limited wish isn't removing their geas, they can, and they could perhaps even obtain a copy of the new spell if they really want to.

[GenghisDon]

meh, I never understood the complete childishness some players have when it comes to charms, domination, geas type magic. Getting disintegrated or burned to ashes because you failed your save is fine but having to do X or Y is the end of the game? Bull****.

Quest(geas) seems the obvious choice, although because you are making it open ended, it's only got a day/level duration. Be specific & make it stick is my suggestion.

I'm not sure Mark of Justice is all that useful, unless it is set vs lies.

Symbol of Persuasion might be of some use?

The arcane caster isn't going to be much help I think; domination doesn't sound like what is desired, and extended suggestion doesn't last long enough, but extended charm monster is probably OK.

Maybe some mind fog, prayer, touch of idiocy, even enervation or other penalty spells to make the symbol or charm stick better?

[Acanous]

Seperate the PCs.
Pretend to dominate three of them.
Actually dominate one of them.

Priceless.

[madtinker]

I can see where the above posters are coming from, but I'm not convinced magical coercion is entirely bad, as long as it isn't straight-up dominate. Leave loop-holes for the enterprising player to find, or ways for the spell/curse/whatever to be broken.


That said, the idea of the bad guy just convincing the players they're under a curse is awesome. Have him go through all the motions of apparently cursing the players(use stuff like blindfolds and blatant lies to keep players from easily identifying the spell being used via spellcraft), and then thoroughly explain the consequences for disobeying. Head exploding, soul-trapping, stuff like that. Make it sound impossible to break(as opposed to an actual curse with a loophole, this is a lie that sounds like it lacks any loopholes). To top it all off, make sure he explains that the spell itself has been masked with powerful anti-detection magic. It's fine if the player mage thinks it sounds ridiculous, that's half the point. Let them be suspicious, paranoia breeds entertainment.

I think this is more where I'm leaning. Has anyone done this well, or been in a game where it was done? How did it work out?

[Tyndmyr]

Or, you know, he could just lie. Geas and the like are just a pain to play under, and not very fun in general.

Have him order away their guards and talk to them amicably, explaining that the leader is actually evil. For example, whoever sent them against the mercenaries did it knowing they would get captured or killed. The PCs should get all pissed off and/or suspicious for some interesting inter player dynamics.

This.

Being mind controlled by the DM is not enjoyable at all, for most players. Making a web of lies and such instead is a more elegant way of reaching the same ends.

Edit: Yes, lies about making them THINK they're under a curse is, in fact, genius.

[Slipperychicken]

meh, I never understood the complete childishness some players have when it comes to charms, domination, geas type magic. Getting disintegrated or burned to ashes because you failed your save is fine but having to do X or Y is the end of the game? Bull****.


You stop playing in both cases, whether you leave the table or not. Why stick around when the DM's dictating your PC's actions anyway?

If I'm not playing DnD for the rest of the session, (because the DM is deciding my PC's actions without my input) I'll take my dice and go home. I have better things to do than watch other people play DnD without me.

[Ravens_cry]

Well, if you're dead, you can be raised or you can make a new character, but forcing characters to do something takes the player out of play but without an immediate option for getting themselves back *in* play.
They have to sit around twiddling their thumbs not playing and not having fun.

[Andorax]

Actually, there's a nifty enchantment spell from Pathfinder #5 that fits the bill (though it's Sorc/Wiz 6).

Without going into the full details of Unconscious Agenda, it's basically a Dominate Person that doesn't take effect until a pre-arranged condition comes about. A dominate that kicks in at the right moment to force you to assassinate the leader, coupled with a convenient set of lies and manipulations that just get you close enough to him....



It has the distinct advantage of only mind-controlling the PCs for the bare minimum amount of time required

[Lord Il Palazzo]

I don't really see the outcry against using something like Geas/Quest on the PCs. It's open ended enough that they still get to choose how to accomplish the job so it isn't like the DM is going to just be remote controlling them for the duration. I would shy away from dominate effects for this reason, but either charm or geas shouldn't be a big deal for most players.

I had a similar scenario in my current campaign where the players needed a specific magic item from an NPC merchant but couldn't afford it. The solution was that he gave the PCs the location of an wizard's abandoned hideout and lesser geased the PCs to find a way into the place and bring him certain pieces of loot (and keep anything else for themselves) in exchange for the item they needed. The players bristled a little at the idea, but once they realized they would still have full control of their characters to accomplish the job however they wanted (and a chance at some nice treasures either way) they went along and a good time was had by all. Since it was lesser geas, the PCs got saves against it and the one who made his save got a chance to plot without the other PCs knowing to keep some of the better loot away from the merchant which added an interesting dynamic to the ensuing adventure.

[madtinker]

Thanks everyone! From the abundant input, I shall refrain from mind control and compulsion magic and instead use lies and trickery to make the PCs think they are compelled to obey.

[Snowbluff]

Thanks everyone! From the abundant input, I shall refrain from mind control and compulsion magic and instead use lies and trickery to make the PCs think they are compelled to obey.

Woohoo! Score one for Snowbluff! :smallcool:

Back on Topic-land, compulsions are annoying since you don't get to roll a new character until you die. I file it under "Playing a game but not playing is not fun".

Additionally, I generally don't allow things like Bluff rolls to affect my players unless they roll a sense motive, and even then I use my IRL charisma score to convince them. This sort of thing will keep the party from getting tipped off compared to you saying "You fail the roll versus Bluff". It also keeps the "the party Rogue is jacking all of the party's gold" thing from happening since he happens to be the skill monkey.
Which happens a little too often for my tastes.

[Spuddles]

Morality Undone is a pretty fun spell, from BoVD. It would be even more fun to convince the party they were subject to it and see what they'd do just thinking that they were evil.