TWF Swordsage stats

[Half-orc Bard]

I want to play a swordsage in my next campaign I want it to be a two weapon fighter because I know it doesn't suck for swordsages, but I don't know what stats are most important, and should I take weapon finesse and that feat that lets you use dex instead of str for damage as long as you're in a shadow hand stance and if so which shadow hand stance is the best for a two weapon fighter

[The Dark Fiddler]

The best way to rack up damage when using TWF is to add on bonus damage that applies on every hit, stuff like sneak attack and the +1d6 weapon enchants. As such, Assassin's Stance for +2d6 sneak attack would be decent.

[NiteCyper]

I want to play a swordsage in my next campaign I want it to be a two weapon fighter because I know it doesn't suck for swordsages, but I don't know what stats are most important
Dexterity > Constitution > Wisdom => Strength > Intelligence > Charisma. There is an implication that the character leans towards the glass cannon, fop, corpse, skirmisher style vs. meat-shield, tank. Even then, I admit that there needs to be struck a balance of ratio of offense:defense.

Charisma may require better consideration if considering the Clarion Commander [Tactical] feat (ToB, pg. 34), but that's in the mid-game. It allows you to flank.


and should I take weapon finesse and that feat that lets you use dex instead of str for damage as long as you're in a shadow hand stance and if so which shadow hand stance is the best for a two weapon fighter
Yes, you should take Weapon Finesse and that other feat that you're describing which is the SHADOW BLADE feat (ToB, page 32). The feat also requires that you "attack with one of the discipline’s preferred weapons".

"Which Shadow Hand stance is the best for a two weapon fighter" is the ASSASSIN'S STANCE stance (ToB, page 75). It is prevalent among all such Sublime Way builds.

[Tvtyrant]

As I understand it the two big schools are the Tiger Claw and Shadow Hand schools when TWFing. Island of Blades makes flanking easy, Dancing Mongoose grants you extra attacks, etc. Shadow Hand makes SA easy to pull off, Tiger Claw lets you get extra attacks.

[Quietus]

I like to pick up Wolf Fang Strike and Burning Blade on TWF Swordsages, as combining the two lets you to a standard action attack with both weapons, throwing bonus fire damage (d6+initiator level) on both of them.

[Half-orc Bard]

thanks for the suggestions :smallbiggrin:

[Darrin]

I want to play a swordsage in my next campaign I want it to be a two weapon fighter because I know it doesn't suck for swordsages, but I don't know what stats are most important, and should I take weapon finesse and that feat that lets you use dex instead of str for damage as long as you're in a shadow hand stance and if so which shadow hand stance is the best for a two weapon fighter

My idea of an optimized TWF Swordsage would look something like:

Race: Human, Strongheart Halfling, or Azurin
Attributes: Dex, Con, Wis, Str, Int, Cha
Feats:
1) TWF, Shadow Blade
3) Weapon Finesse
6) Adaptive Style
9) Imp TWF
12) Craven (Champions of Ruin)
15) Staggering Strike (CompAdv)
18) Undo Resistance (Fiendish Codex II)

If your DM allows the Unarmed Swordsage variant, then I'm tempted to put Snap Kick in at 9, but it's difficult to fit everything in without dipping 2 levels of Fighter. You can skip Weapon Finesse by using Feycraft (DMGII) shortswords, and you can pick up Imp TWF via Gloves of the Balanced Hand (8000 GP, MIC).

For Maneuvers/Stances, start with:

1) Burning Blade, Moment of Perfect Mind, Counter Charge, Wolf Fang Strike,
Sudden Leap, Shadow Blade Technique, Island of Blades
2) Wind Stride, Flame's Blessing
3) Mountain Hammer
4) Cloak of Deception, swap Wolf Fang Strike -> Shadow Jaunt
5) Mind Over Body, Assassin's Stance
6) Shadow Garrote, swap Wind Stride -> Zephyr Dance


If I wanted more of a "Kitchen Sink" build, then I'd probably do something like Spirit Lion Totem City Brawler Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Swashbuckler 1/Swordsage 16, and maybe get Snap Kick in there with Travel Devotion, Double Hit and Robilar's Gambit.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

If you want something really well optimized, look up the Feral Dreadlord. It's one of the nicest TWF builds out there, and pretty simple and elegant to boot.

[INoKnowNames]

If you're tempted to go the entire Two Weapon Fighting Tree, along with some Tiger Claw and such, I'd recommend Blood Claw Master, for eliminating the penalty to Two Weapon Fighting (at least the initial -2).

I remember seeing something about a relatively durable yet powerful character. Feral Death Lord, I think. Two Weapon Fighting, 9th Level Maneuvers, a decent level of Sneak Attack... it looked pretty sweet...

.... apparently, I've been Swordsaged. Fittingly.

[NiteCyper]

I remember seeing some "ferrule dead leader" build which had elements of what you're trying to build. (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/slowpoke) Give that a look up.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

How about a wis-based swordsage? With intuitive strike and 1 level of Shiba Protector. Select strikes that let you make full attacks, like pouncing charge and most notably time stands still for your insightful strike feature.
Should be good. Even better if Strongheart Halfling with Yondalla's sense

[NiteCyper]

How about a wis-based swordsage? With intuitive strike and 1 level of Shiba Protector. Select strikes that let you make full attacks, like pouncing charge and most notably time stands still for your insightful strike feature.
Should be good. Even better if Strongheart Halfling with Yondalla's sense
If you worship the moon, the Moon-warded Ranger substitution level (Dragon Magazine 340, page 55) adds Wisdom to AC again via the Armor of the Senses (Su) class feature. Being of a different name, it stacks with the AC Bonus of the Swordsage and Monk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm).

However, the substitution level is the second level and replaces Combat Style (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm#combatStyle) (Ex). Luckily, the Yondalla's Sense feat does not require worshipping Yondalla.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Shadow Blade + Weapon Finesse + TWF chain is awfully feat-intensive. Practically speaking, you may want to double check that, since you might not get the combo going for quite some time.

[Amoren]

Assuming human or strongheart halfling, you can get those three feats by level three. With flaws you could even grab adaptive style, but if not will have to hold that off until level 6.

I liked a strongheart halfling swordsage I played for a bit. A lot of the battlefield control maneuvers allow you to disregard the penalty from being a small size (and sometimes even give you advantages if you are, if I remember correctly. There's just something awesome about a two foot halfling tossing the barbarian over a cliff which screams of win. The extra AC, to hit, and accuracy help, as well as the bonus against fear to help offset the penalty of Craven.

[Half-orc Bard]

how important is the TWFing tree for a TWF swordsage

[ShneekeyTheLost]

how important is the TWFing tree for a TWF swordsage

More attacks is more better. Particularly if you can get Pouncing Strike or some other method of pounce.

[Tvtyrant]

I wonder if you could make a moderately optimized Swordsage by taking Rogue 1/Swordsage-, so you can pick up Craven. +20 damage an attack combined with TWF is better than Shadow Blade is by far.

[Bakkan]

I actually like Str=Dex>Wis=Con>Int=Cha for a TWF Swordsage. In Point Buy it's efficient to get two moderately high stats rather than one huge one, and it saves you a feat. Something like 16-16-14-8-14-8-8 (32 point buy) gives you +3 attack, +6 damage (+4 with off-hand),19 AC with chain shirt, and 10 hit points at first level. Add in some Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, and Thicket of Blades and you're fun and easy right away.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I wonder if you could make a moderately optimized Swordsage by taking Rogue 1/Swordsage-, so you can pick up Craven. +20 damage an attack combined with TWF is better than Shadow Blade is by far.

It's commonly done. In fact, a lot of sneak-attack builds I see these days have several Rogue levels, and only a couple of Swordsage levels (for either Island of Blades or Assassin's Stance).

Shadow Blade is damage per swing. TWF is more swings. It isn't that one is stronger than the other, it's that they synergize very well (more damage per attack + more attacks = doubleplusdamage).

[Tvtyrant]

It's commonly done. In fact, a lot of sneak-attack builds I see these days have several Rogue levels, and only a couple of Swordsage levels (for either Island of Blades or Assassin's Stance).

Shadow Blade is damage per swing. TWF is more swings. It isn't that one is stronger than the other, it's that they synergize very well (more damage per attack + more attacks = doubleplusdamage).

I was actually comparing Craven with Shadow Blade as a feat, not TWF. Your dex modifier is probably not going to be high enough to match the damage gained from Craven, so Craven is to me the better feat. Both of them combine with TWF, but Craven does it better IMO.

And I see that my earlier statement was worded oddly and seems to compare Shadow Blade and TWF, but I meant to compare Craven and Shadow Blade.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I was actually comparing Craven with Shadow Blade as a feat, not TWF. Your dex modifier is probably not going to be high enough to match the damage gained from Craven, so Craven is to me the better feat. Both of them combine with TWF, but Craven does it better IMO.

And I see that my earlier statement was worded oddly and seems to compare Shadow Blade and TWF, but I meant to compare Craven and Shadow Blade.

Craven is precision-based damage which is applied whenever you sneak attack. There's several limitations there, and plenty of things are immune to it if you don't specifically build for it. It's harder to do this with an unarmed swordsage because you can't use a wand sheath on your weapons of Gravestrike and Golemstrike if your 'weapons' are your bare hands.

Shadow Blade, however, is active whenever you are in a Shadow Hand stance. Which is pretty much 24/7.

Craven also scales. At lower levels, you'll probably get more benefit from Shadow Blade. At higher levels, Craven will start to do more damage, but you'll also start getting to apply it less and less.

Remember, not everyone starts off at level 20 :smallwink:

Besides, again, the two are not mutually exclusive. Do both and have fun.