Fighter with arcane spells? Core only.

[Zilant]

Hi guys, first post here but I have been lurking for a little while now.

I recently got back into d&d and have been DMing for 3 of my friends. Two of them have played before (maybe 15-20 sessions total. Ever.) with me as the dm. The other friend has I only played twice, both times with me in the current campaign we are doing. I can count the number of times I have played as a PC on one hand since I'm the only one who has the books. Anyway , this was just a bit of backround to show you our (mine especially) inexperience with the game. Ive had the books for something like 8 years but I just can't find stable players.

Enough ranting. My issue is that the newest player want to try out the different classes but doesn't want to roll new ones evey time. Right now he is a fighter but expressed an interest in arcane spellcasting. I was thinking that I could just wait until he levels up so he can multiclass. I just dont know how he should go about doing this. Should he pick wizard or sorc? Should he just roll up a new character to avoid all the confusion?

I'm not sure if it matters but the party is
Human fighter
Elf rogue
Dwarf cleric
Also, I'm only using the core books since that's all I own. Also because of how new we all are to the game still and I don't want to overload anyone , especially myself, with too many rules.

If there's any information that I'm missing that would help you better understand my question please let me know.

Thanks for reading and I hope this is easy enough to understand. It's 2a.m. And I'm typin from an iPhone.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'd strongly, suggest sorcerer or bard. Prepared casting is not for newbs. Bard is probably the better choice; since, should he decide to continue down that road, he won't lose as much BAB and can still wear light armor without asf.

We could probably get more detailed if we knew your pc's character levels.

[hoverfrog]

When he goes up a level he gets to pick a new class or the same class. That's RAW. Watch out for the arcane spell failure for wearing armour though.

[NiteCyper]

What he should pick is a good question due to the vastly complex nature of the Weave. Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#sorcerer) is better than Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#wizard) because it is less complicated to cast spontaneously. The class with the smallest spell list would be best.

Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm)s are the sister to the Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#sorcerer) and Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#wizard) in the way that while the Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm) automatically has access to every spell on their list, loading the player up with choices, the Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm) does not have to choose which spells to know, like the Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#wizard). That makes the Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm) better than the Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#wizard) too.

On top of that, the Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm) has in-built martial prowess, the ability to convert any spell to cure (or inflict) wounds, and is known as the buffer. The first benefit synergizes with multi-classing Fighter. The second benefit means that when the newbie doesn't know what else to do, they are still useful. The third benefit means that spell selection can partially be done by team-mates as they request the Cleric to prepare certain spells to buff them with.

"But we already have a Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm)..?" An opportunity for a mentor-and-protégé relations, more healing, and more buffs. With two with similar capacities, the newbie feels less of a need to do what the other is doing and branch out. While they aren't doing what the first Cleric does, the newbie has the opportunity to learn what the first Cleric does anyway.

The Ranger also has access to spell-casting and is geared towards martial prowess. The spell-casting doesn't come in immediately, encouraging the player to make a long-term investment, discouraging flighty decision-making.

It's too bad that you're stuck with Core only. There are retraining and rebuilding options in the Player's Handbook II. The Player's Handbook II also has the Duskblade standard class, which is an arcane gish (spellcasting fighter).

I also do think that the player should multi-class instead of playing a new character. The latter requires rolling a new character which you tell us that he "doesn't want to roll [a]new [...] evey time". Secondly, multi-classing has the potential to incur the multi-classing XP penalty and, in the case of multi-classing from Fighter to spellcaster, results in less power. As the player realizes that trying to play too many different classes at once, they will be admonished to stick to one style for one character.

The inconducive desire may not feel the in-game effort taken to multi-class (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0126.html) immediately, but its consequences will be felt over time. Multi-classing was built into the system specifically for those who wish to play something else. Even in life, evolution favours specialization.

Prestige classes are also an option to earn spellcasting. I am not familiar with them, but I know that there exists the variants prestige Paladin, prestige Bard, etc., and the normal PrCs, like Assassin that gets its own spellcasting progression.

Addendum: re: the post below: Ah, you're right. Well, the benefits are myriad and difficult to ignore. I forgot to add the interaction between divine spellcasting and arcane spell failure, namely that there is none. And also that it's easier to calculate adding one new level rather than making a whole new character.

Addendum 2: What's this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantDivineBard) ? Reflecting other posters' suggestions of a Bard while mitigating ASF (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#arcaneSpellFailure)? True, it's divine and not arcane again, but...

[teslas]

That's a lot of words, there, "NiteCypher". Also note the subject of the post discounts most of what you were talking about with the cleric spell-casting...


If you want to stay in core sources, your "best" option is probably taking some levels in sorcerer or bard, as suggested. Because he's multi-classed, and bard casting is already so watered down (and he might not want all the frilly songs), he's probably much better off to do sorcerer. Wizard has the fastest progression of the three, however.

It has already been noted that he needs to watch for arcane spell failure for wearing armor. I'll reiterate this because it's a very good point to make. While bard might have the weakest casting, they are able to wear light armor without worrying about losing spells. It might be worth mentioning that a mithral breastplate affords a decent bit of protection and is considered light armor.

All in all, it really should depend on what mental stat is higher--charisma or intelligence. He'd probably be more prone to pick up one class over the other both for ingame fluff and for out of game crunch depending on his ability scores.

And again, since you've chosen core-only, after he progresses far enough in his casting class he can do some eldritch knight prestige class levels, which you have in your dungeon master's guide. It gives full BAB, a fighter bonus feat at first, and gives full casting progression after first level, essentially making the first level the same as taking another level of fighter (or better, really).


If you're the only one with the books, no fear! I absolutely prefer having the physical books in front of me, no doubt, but a laptop or tablet at the table with the the online SRD pulled up is a fantastic resource. I'm surprised you've not already done it or referred your players to it. It contains the PHB, MM1 (most of it), DMG, XPH, and a good bit of Unearthed Arcana to boot.

IE: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/eldritchKnight.htm

[dextercorvia]

Unless he built his fighter to multiclass (what is his Charisma?) he is probably going to be disappointed with it. If he wants to try all the classes, I would encourage hims to make one of each, and give it a try. That will help a lot with his system mastery.

[Flickerdart]

Sorcerer or Bard is the best choice in Core, as previously mentioned. He can go into Dragon Disciple and pick up some natural weapons and stat boosts if he decides that progressing spellcasting isn't for him after all.

However, if he wants to be a little quirky, and has the skill ranks for it, he can dip into Assassin, which gets spells faster than Bard and helps more with swording stuff.

[teslas]

However, if he wants to be a little quirky, and has the skill ranks for it, he can dip into Assassin, which gets spells faster than Bard and helps more with swording stuff.

Assassin being DMG, of course. And keep in mind that if you're hung up on the alignment restrictions of assassins, WotC put this out online. It is literally just the assassin class but with (slightly) different backstory and flavor.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a

[Eldariel]

My favorite Fighter/Wizard in Core is Ranger 2/Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 10 (Eldritch Knight being in the DMG). It's base-competent, and Ranger + Intelligence synergize for skills and skill points. It's also just as competent a warrior as Fighter; the principal advantage Fighter has over Ranger is being able to wear Heavy Armor which you can't do anyways with arcane casting so there's literally no reason to take Fighter over Ranger here.

That said, his selection of class must almost certainly be based on his stats unless he has Magical Christmas Land Stats with everything in the 16s; if his Cha is higher, go Sorc, otherwise go Wizard.


But yeah, I prefer Ranger over Fighter 'cause:
- Spot & Listen in class (among other skills). Skills are a great way for non-casters to do stuff. Since Wizards have a lot of Int anyways, a good skill list is a must.
- Free Rapid Shot without taking Point Blank Shot. This makes him as competent with a bow as you can be in Core without really needing to invest in it.
- Ability to use Wands of Ranger Spells (most crucially Wand of Cure Light Wounds); gives you some versatility and makes you able to heal up the party healer should he go down.
- Just as good at fighting as Fighter (all the weapon proficiencies, full BAB).

[Tyndmyr]

He should probably grab a level in sorc. In core only, your options here are Eldritch Knight and Dragon Disciple for PrCs.

Why Sorc? Because it's simpler to pick up than wizard, and bard won't gain access to spells very fast.

[Randomguy]

What level is the party?

He should probably pick sorcerer, like everyone else said, unless he has very low charisma but decent intelligence, in which case wizard is the way to go.

Having the character multiclass, instead of making a new character, will be a good opportunity to teach everyone the rules of multiclassing.

I recommend ignoring the rule that multiclass characters get experience penalties. In general all it does is discourage multiclassing and make it harder to calculate who's getting how much XP.

The key thing to remember is that a fighter/wizard won't be able to fight as well as a fighter, or cast spells as well as a wizard. What they will be able to do is use their magic to become a better fighter, and that's what makes a fighter/wizard a viable character.
Prestige classes, like eldritch knight and swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) (swiftblade is an online prestige class, it doesn't come from a book), also make fighter/wizards viable characters by making the player better at fighting and spellcasting.


As you gain more experience playing, try to introduce some material from the srd (http://www.d20srd.org/), which is all the stuff from the core books, plus unearthed arcana, the epic level handbook, and a few other books. There's also a lot of stuff that's available free online (there's a list here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1109.0)). Not all of the pages listed there can actually be used in game (because they mention feats and stuff that isn't posted online), but most of them can.

[Nerd648]

Sorcerer is a pretty easy class to learn to play.
Also, there is this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer).

In summary, 3/4th BAB, light armor without spell failure, access to Sor/Wiz spell list, and a good Hit Die.

[ericgrau]

IMO an eldritch knight is a wizard who can fight rather than a fighter that can cast. Without armor you really don't want to get into melee that much. Buffs can help with the lost offense somewhat, but it's better for a full wizard to target a full fighter with those rather than a fighter/wizard target himself.

My favorite fighter who can cast is one who dips only 1 or 2 levels of sorcerer or wizard. Cleric with the magic domain is also popular. That allows wands and scroll use. Wands in particular don't have arcane spell failure due to armor. While normally spells are better on a full caster, on a partial caster wands can be more powerful. Especially used wands without full charges (advocated by the DMG btw, so let's not complain as long as the DM limits availability to only a few to be reasonable). Those with a ranged touch attack and no save or area spells with save for partial make good ranged backup weapons, better than a bow for a melee character. Besides damage empowered ray of enfeeblement or enervation is good, as are 3rd level wands to recharge a spell storing weapon at high levels. Plus invisibility and, at high levels, see invisibility too (at low levels I might carry a scroll or two to save money, whereas invisibility is more spammable). Multiple between combat utility scrolls are great too, since if you fail you can just keep retrying. Especially level 1 at 25 gp a pop, and later level 2 is likewise affordable.

If you pick an arcane caster over a magic domain cleric you lose divine magic item access but you gain other benefits. Both feather fall and true strike may be cast without arcane spell failure due to armor. If you go sorcerer (again, only 1 or 2 levels) you can go into dragon disciple which is just about the hardest hitting melee build in core, and a bit versatile too thanks to the wands, utility scrolls and level 1 casting.

Let me know if he's ranged instead of melee, because there are ways to make that work too but I don't want to get into it otherwise.

[Answerer]

Most of the advice in this thread is pretty good for new players.

That said, I think it's worth pointing out some realities of the system from the perspective of trying to get the most out of your levels, skills, feats, and so on. This is called 'optimization,' and can be taken to ridiculous extremes, but every player optimizes to more or less depending on his experience and preferences. If you know how it works, you can choose the power level you're most comfortable with.

So anyway, there are two things here worth looking at. The first of these is just a general sort of look at what levels are worth what, to what kinds of builds. Second is how one would generally look to build Fighter-with-Spells, often called a "gish" in D&D parlance (it's from a 2e class I think?).


Multiclassing, or The First and Fifth Rules of Optimization
Someone once wrote a "ten commandments" style list for optimizing (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=517.0). The first and fifth of these were identical, because it's that important: Thou shalt not lose spellcasting levels.

In optimized 3.5, magic trumps all. More magic is always better than less magic, full-stop. If you're a spellcaster, you do not trade the opportunity to get more magic for anything. Actually, worth noting: more powerful magic is better than more-but-less-powerful magic. Having one 9th-level spell is worth more than having an extra seven (number pulled out of nowhere) 4th-level spells. Mystic Theurge is a deadly trap.

By the same token, if you're someone without magic, multiclassing into a spellcasting class is seen as a bad move unless you're very, very careful: you're getting spells that were good at level 1. But you're not level 1. Of course, spells are so powerful that if you're careful, it's still worth it.

This is why Flickerdart suggested Assassin: it gains spells quicker. It's designed to be entered from a higher level. The Assassin spell list is a bit sub-par in Core-only, but it's by no means awful.

Outside of Core, there are prestige classes like Assassin that have their own spellcasting, that grow quicker than others. Suel Arcanamach and Sublime Chord are probably the most popular Arcane options; on the Divine side, the Ur-Priest is kind of insane (in 10 levels you get spellcasting only somewhat weaker than 20 levels of Cleric).

Gishing, or Proving the Spellcasters are Better at Everything, Yes, Even That.
Most optimizers see the goal of a gish character as obtaining at least +16 BAB (i.e. four attacks) and 9th-level spells.

In Core, you can go Wizard 8/Any-Full-BAB-Class 2/Eldritch Knight 10 to (just barely) achieve this. So that sets the standard by which gish builds are judged.

Of the choices for full BAB, Barbarian's not very good (can't cast while Raging), Paladin would work better if you could use Sorcerer (but you can't because you lose three spellcasting levels, and Sorcerers can only lose two and still get 9ths), and Fighter's kind of meh (can't use the armor and shield proficiencies anyway and you're probably not hurting that badly for feats). So I'm going to echo someone else's suggestion of Ranger for that.

That makes the build a Wizard 8/Ranger 2/Eldritch Knight 10. The character is going to suck at levels nine through eleven or so, since he's missing out on spells but still has pretty weak BAB. Before level 12 or so, he's just going to be a spellcaster.


For a lot of optimizers, though, this is just the wrong way of looking at the problem. Many would say that what you want is to be an Arcanist who can fight in melee: then do it with just spells. Remember, more spells are always better than less spells. Thus, rather than losing spellcasting levels on gaining BAB, the suggestion would be to use spells to make up the difference. The various polymorph effects allow access to some ridiculous options. Shapechange, at 9th-level, is astonishingly powerful.


Sorry for a lot of text, and equally sorry that a lot of it may not really be relevant for your game. I leave it here primarily "for the record" as it were. If you're curious, it may be interesting to see how optimizers might look at this question.

To be very sure, following the guidelines herein are not necessary to enjoy the game; in fact, if only one player does it, they can very much ruin the game. But it is my strongly felt opinion that more knowledge is always better. How you use that knowledge is where things like responsibility and fairness come in.

[Eldariel]

So anyway, there are two things here worth looking at. The first of these is just a general sort of look at what levels are worth what, to what kinds of builds. Second is how one would generally look to build Fighter-with-Spells, often called a "gish" in D&D parlance (it's from a 2e class I think?).

Gish is basically the name for Githyanki Fighter/Warriors (the word for "skilled" in their language). I do think it was around already in AD&D 1e when the gith were first introduced.


In Core, you can go Wizard 8/Any-Full-BAB-Class 2/Eldritch Knight 10 to (just barely) achieve this. So that sets the standard by which gish builds are judged.

Worth noting here; Wizard 8 isn't strictly required. Generally you take Wizard 6 for the BAB & Save increases, but Wizard 7 and 8 can be interchanged with two levels in either of the big Wizard Prestige Classes: Loremaster or Archmage (leaving out Red Wizard here since you kinda need it all the way if you go down that path).

Both have some great abilities; Loremaster most importantly gets Use Magic Device in class while Archmage gets Mastery of Shaping and one of the others (Mastery of Shaping on a Gish for those self-centered AMFs is very good; you move up to somebody to hit 'em, they don't have magic item/spell/whatever bonuses while you do).

For a lot of optimizers, though, this is just the wrong way of looking at the problem. Many would say that what you want is to be an Arcanist who can fight in melee: then do it with just spells. Remember, more spells are always better than less spells. Thus, rather than losing spellcasting levels on gaining BAB, the suggestion would be to use spells to make up the difference. The various polymorph effects allow access to some ridiculous options. Shapechange, at 9th-level, is astonishingly powerful.

This is where the heart of being a Warrior Wizard is. You're not as good a pure warrior as the Warrior-classes nor as good a caster as the Caster-classes.

What you are though is both; therefore, you can use your magic to augment your physical prowess to the point where you can fight better than most Warriors while having superior protection from magic due to your own spells.


For instance, Bracers of Armor + Dexterity will often result in more lategame AC than Mithral Fullplate +5 and 16 Dexterity. If the character happens to have any Wisdom to speak of, Monk's Belt can also be an option. Add to that shapechanging to gain e.g. Natural Armor of a Pit Fiend or a Solar and their physical stats and you're suddenly in the realm of things utterly impossible without magic.

It's worth noting that while Warrior Wizards do have impressive high-end stats, they need more stats than pure casters or pure warriors (they need high casting stat & high physicals; or rather, high physicals always help them a lot). They're also more vulnerable to Dispels than full casters since their caster level in Core is significantly lower than full casters', and while Dispels screw everybody over, they're probably the most vulnerable since without magical protections they're squishy warriors in melee.

That said, they do tend to be fairly impressive. Cleric is the ur-example of a Warrior Wizard (more or less full BAB + full casting) but arcanists can pull it off somewhat too.

[Zilant]

Wow thats quite a number of replies.

I'll try and do this by memory but heres a few answers to some questions.

My party is currently level 2. The next time we play (should have been today but might not be until this weeked) they will level up to lvl 3.I was thinking of having my friend wait until he earns his 5th level to start multiclassing but if he likes the idea (I haven't talked to him about it yet so he doesn't even know it's an option) then I won't force him to wait.

It seems like either sorc or bard would be a decent class to mix with his. I'll show him the Eldritch Knight as ask him if he want's to start knocking out prerequisits for it immediately. I totally forgot that was in the DM guide.

I usually don't go on the SRD because it isn't that hard for me to find stuff in the core books anyways, though I'm not against using it. I don't really bother my players with things that are online. It isn't that they aren't interested in it but I don't see any of them taking the time to look at the options for the different characters to build and wasy to build them. They usually tell me what they want to do and I point them in a direction and have them choose from there.

I appreciate all the responses. They were very insightful and I think I now have quite a bit to discuss with my fighter.