Doppelganger Cleric of Lastai (was: Faerun Question)

[willpell]

The Forgotten Realms is not my preference in a campaign setting and so I haven't studied it too much, but I have a question which I was hoping the Playground could help me with. I have a hard time imagining clerics of Sune clanking around in plate armor and bashing things with a morningstar all the time; has anyone worked out an Alternate Class Feature, similar to Cloistered Cleric but not quite so academic and stuffy, to represent clerics of a goddess of love and beauty?

(And yes I'm aware of the Vow of Nudity; it's cute but it's a bit too specific for what I'm looking for.)

[JetThomasBoat]

That is a good question. I haven't heard of any myself, nor have I looked. I would say maybe just try to come up with you own house rule, or try to talk the DM into something.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You could just give the character a little extra dex, a lighter armor, & Sune's favored weapon. (quarterstaff?)

[GenghisDon]

Allow the character to trade some feats, like heavy armor prof, medium armor prof &/or shield & even light armor prof for other (L1) feats like SF:enchantment, GSF: enchantment, skill focus: diplomacy, perform or profession (artist, singer, painter, ect), or craft (sculpture, jeweler, ect), WP &/or WF:Whip (sash), other whip feats...not exactly power gamer stuff!

Consider adding perform, appraise & disguise to class skills, maybe up the skills to 3 or 4 instead of 2 per level.

Perhaps potential special feats that replicate the d20 modern charismatic hero charm tree could be allowed (tweaked).

Charm: get a bonus to all chr based checks vs opposite gender, only works on NPC's with attitudes of indifferent or better. +1 bonus per 2 levels (1, 3, 5, ect, max +10). Limited to fellow humanoids in D&D I imagine.

Favour & Captivate would be cool too. All are "stronger" than typical feats however, if very situational.

[willpell]

Allow the character to trade some feats, like heavy armor prof, medium armor prof &/or shield & even light armor prof for other (L1) feats like SF:enchantment, GSF: enchantment, skill focus: diplomacy, perform or profession (artist, singer, painter, ect), or craft (sculpture, jeweler, ect), WP &/or WF:Whip (sash), other whip feats...not exactly power gamer stuff!

I wasn't aware that there was any legal option to trade away your class features. In fact, as far as I know you don't actually gain the proficiency feats from the class, you just gain "proficiency", and may take feats to gain more such proficiency. Certainly it doesn't seem as though getting four feats for free at first level is very balanced if those four aren't the full armor proficiency line.


Consider adding perform, appraise & disguise to class skills, maybe up the skills to 3 or 4 instead of 2 per level.

4x skills like the Cloistered Cleric is what I was thinking, but you'd have to give something up in exchange or you'd just be strictly better than the already-Tier-1 cleric. Dropping BAB to poor progression seems fine, but I don't know about the d6 hit die that Clois'ers get, and I know I don't want the Knowledge domain, Lore, or extra "bookish" spells such as Message and Secret Page. Extra spells aren't a bad idea, but I'd want things that are more akin to what the Bard and Beguiler get, stuff that's useful for "waging peace" and converting others to the cause of love and joy...since apparently mild brainwashing is Good as long as you're really nice about it. (Depending on my mood, I may or may not agree.)

[Alleran]

You could just give the character a little extra dex, a lighter armor, & Sune's favored weapon. (quarterstaff?)
Sune's favoured weapon is a whip.

I think Lady Firehair might have a kinky side to her.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Sune's favoured weapon is a whip.

I think Lady Firehair might have a kinky side to her.

Blast! I got Sune and Selune mixed up again.

[GenghisDon]

I wasn't aware that there was any legal option to trade away your class features. In fact, as far as I know you don't actually gain the proficiency feats from the class, you just gain "proficiency", and may take feats to gain more such proficiency. Certainly it doesn't seem as though getting four feats for free at first level is very balanced if those four aren't the full armor proficiency line.



4x skills like the Cloistered Cleric is what I was thinking, but you'd have to give something up in exchange or you'd just be strictly better than the already-Tier-1 cleric. Dropping BAB to poor progression seems fine, but I don't know about the d6 hit die that Clois'ers get, and I know I don't want the Knowledge domain, Lore, or extra "bookish" spells such as Message and Secret Page. Extra spells aren't a bad idea, but I'd want things that are more akin to what the Bard and Beguiler get, stuff that's useful for "waging peace" and converting others to the cause of love and joy...since apparently mild brainwashing is Good as long as you're really nice about it. (Depending on my mood, I may or may not agree.)

"Legal" or not, so long as it's not more powerful, it ought be allowed, cause it's fair.

Trading armor prof med & heavy for EWP: Whip & WF: Whip makes the character much weaker, so unless it's an issue of the DM worrying the character will be a drag on the group, why not? Yes, I'm aware that both of those require a BAB of +1, but War Domain breaks that rule already.

EDIT: If the concern is PCR's or multi-classing, the DM could fairly & happily rule you NEVER get the "class feature" of said given up "feats", so there is no getting something for nothing. The character would need to BUY the lost/traded armor prof's with actual feats.

Cloistered clerics get 6 skills/L, and are heavily modified, although you could use them for inspiration if you want to create a heavily modified class for Sune.

The Thug (fighter) adds a few skills & gets 4 (vs 2) skills/L in return for giving up some armor profs.

wether it's slight tweaks or a whole new class you decide to try, neither idea need be too concerning, so long as one is careful not to increase the cleric into broken-ville.

[Feytalist]

Coupla options:

Play a Favoured Soul instead (yes, alright, bad option :smalltongue:)

If you're okay with Dragon material, Dragon #312 (I think) has a couple of alternate cleric options that might have what you want. The Aspirant gets a few extra abilities per day. The Benevolent gets a larger spontaneous conversion list. One of the options get an extra domain every 5 levels, to a total of 6 at level 20. That's pretty cool.

Also check out the Heartwarder in... Faiths and Pantheons, isn't it? Sune-centric PrC. Maybe expand it to be a base class? Or something.

[comicshorse]

A Ring of Arming (? the one that enables you to summon your armour instantly on to you) will ensure you can wear the stylish clothing suitable for the occasion but still be armoured in a second when necessary.
And hey just because you were plate mail doesn't mean it can't be BEAUTIFUL plate mail. Silvered plate, polished to a mirror brightness and decorated with gold filigree so it is a work of art in itself.

[Flawless]

Maybe keep in mind that (faerunian-fluff-wise) clerics of Sune favour heavy armor so that they minimize the risk of defacing wounds and scars.

[willpell]

Coupla options:

Play a Favoured Soul instead (yes, alright, bad option :smalltongue:)

I like the Favored Soul as a concept and I don't mind it being less powerful than the Cleric, but it doesn't have Domains which is a deal-breaker, as most of the point of being a divine character to me is being able to emphasize certain aspects of the deity. Besides FSes get armor proficiency too.


If you're okay with Dragon material, Dragon #312 (I think) has a couple of alternate cleric options that might have what you want. The Aspirant gets a few extra abilities per day. The Benevolent gets a larger spontaneous conversion list. One of the options get an extra domain every 5 levels, to a total of 6 at level 20. That's pretty cool.

Sigh...I have a few random Dragons but I really prefer to stick to books. I wish the company hadn't hid its content in so many places and made it difficult to pull everything together; it'd be really nice if there was just one book each for various topics and it contained everything related to the topic.


Also check out the Heartwarder in... Faiths and Pantheons, isn't it? Sune-centric PrC. Maybe expand it to be a base class? Or something.

You say "expand it to be a base class" as if that wasn't a vast undertaking.... Also I don't believe I have that book.


A Ring of Arming (? the one that enables you to summon your armour instantly on to you) will ensure you can wear the stylish clothing suitable for the occasion but still be armoured in a second when necessary.

That sounds great actually, what book is it in?


And hey just because you were plate mail doesn't mean it can't be BEAUTIFUL plate mail. Silvered plate, polished to a mirror brightness and decorated with gold filigree so it is a work of art in itself.

Not the point. It'd still be clanky and awkward; to my way of thinking, appropriate armor for a character like this would be Magic Vestments, but the rules annoyingly don't offer any options whereby wearing enchanted clothing is actually comparable in valuable to wearing real, bulky armor. At least not out of the books I'm familiar with, which is mostly just the core plus EPH, Tome of Magic, Incarnum, and a few others.

[Saintheart]

Blast! I got Sune and Selune mixed up again.

Guys, guys, guys ... it's Sharess who's the patron god of "festhalls", not Sune, not Shar, not Selune. :D She's the one with the symbol that's a pair of ruby red lips, after all.

[comicshorse]

[QUOTE=willpell;13601831
That sounds great actually, what book is it in?
[/QUOTE]

It's in the Magic Item Compendium. Costs 5,000 and it is called the Ring of Arming

[Downysole]

Instead of changing the rules to fit the fluff, you might want to consider comicshorse's option. I wear armor sometimes and let me tell you, it can look really good.

Maybe make the guy into a "knight in shining armor" that the ladies fall in love with. Don't have to be a fighter to do this. You could be a Renly Baratheon type.

[GenghisDon]

I like the Favored Soul as a concept and I don't mind it being less powerful than the Cleric, but it doesn't have Domains which is a deal-breaker, as most of the point of being a divine character to me is being able to emphasize certain aspects of the deity. Besides FSes get armor proficiency too.


Sigh...I have a few random Dragons but I really prefer to stick to books. I wish the company hadn't hid its content in so many places and made it difficult to pull everything together; it'd be really nice if there was just one book each for various topics and it contained everything related to the topic.

You say "expand it to be a base class" as if that wasn't a vast undertaking.... Also I don't believe I have that book.

That sounds great actually, what book is it in?


You don't sound like a power gamer (good for you!), so modifying favoured soul class ought work just as well.

you get EWP whip free (huzza!). See about trading energy resistance (1,2 &3), wings & DR in exchange for (2) Domains (Sune suitable). If you aren't going to multiclass it's no big, if you will (or go PCR) you can make the trade "fair" (not front loaded) by exchanging the ER, wings & DR features for a domain at L5, 10, 15 & 20 instead. I'd reduce the base spells known by 1 as well.

trade medium armor per my previous posts (or not, you don't seem to trust/like the idea).

The Heartwarder is in Faiths & Pantheons.

[Kinsmarck]

Why not just throw a Glamer enchantment on some half-plate? All the pros of heavy armor, with the aesthetic appeal of diaphanous robes or whatever else strikes your fancy. There's still the armor check penalty to be mindful of, but a little mithral can put a nice dent in that as well.

[silverwolfer]

Ruby Rose Knights (CoV)

as per setting

They get immunity to Charisma drain/damage, add the spell "love bite" to their spell list, Heroism that replaces Remove Disease and gets upgraded instead of Remove Disease, and a hug that gives power of bravery (bonuses to most rolls, immunity to fear and extra hit points) which last for a minute.

Plus they get Bluff and a selection of Perform skills for those three levels.

[Andezzar]

A Ring of Arming (? the one that enables you to summon your armour instantly on to you) will ensure you can wear the stylish clothing suitable for the occasion but still be armoured in a second when necessary. The Called property is also an option. It does the same thing for a suit of armor is cheaper and does not require a ring.

[Downysole]

Called is cheaper for a set of armor, but if you want to apply it to your whole ensemble, your shield would have to have the property as well, and you would still have to draw your whip.

Ring of arming, for the same action, costs you the slot, but allows you to have an entire set of weapons and armor ready to be swapped into using a standard command action.

So, you can be a pretty boy when the fighting starts, but as you walk towards the fray, you can call out to your ring and have yourself dressed for a fight by the time you get there. (move and a standard action)

Not to mention, you would have to call your shield as a second action, assuming you have one.

[willpell]

Maybe make the guy into a "knight in shining armor" that the ladies fall in love with. Don't have to be a fighter to do this. You could be a Renly Baratheon type.

The character is female.


See about trading energy resistance (1,2 &3), wings & DR in exchange for (2) Domains (Sune suitable).

Interesting thought.

[Alleran]

Guys, guys, guys ... it's Sharess who's the patron god of "festhalls", not Sune, not Shar, not Selune. :D She's the one with the symbol that's a pair of ruby red lips, after all.
You know, Malcanthet's symbol is a pair of ruby red lips with a spike driven through them. There's something fishy going on there.

[Andezzar]

Called is cheaper for a set of armor, but if you want to apply it to your whole ensemble, your shield would have to have the property as well, and you would still have to draw your whip.

Ring of arming, for the same action, costs you the slot, but allows you to have an entire set of weapons and armor ready to be swapped into using a standard command action.

So, you can be a pretty boy when the fighting starts, but as you walk towards the fray, you can call out to your ring and have yourself dressed for a fight by the time you get there. (move and a standard action)

Not to mention, you would have to call your shield as a second action, assuming you have one.If you use a shield you are right. If you only use a suit of armor and a weapon, you could take a (least) crystal of return and still save 2500 gp.

[Saintheart]

You know, Malcanthet's symbol is a pair of ruby red lips with a spike driven through them. There's something fishy going on there.

Yes, Gaga has finally got into Ao's pants. :smallcool: :smallbiggrin:

[silverwolfer]

feel neglected as gives the full actualy raw answer

[Piggy Knowles]

Ruby Rose Knights (CoV)

as per setting

They get immunity to Charisma drain/damage, add the spell "love bite" to their spell list, Heroism that replaces Remove Disease and gets upgraded instead of Remove Disease, and a hug that gives power of bravery (bonuses to most rolls, immunity to fear and extra hit points) which last for a minute.

Plus they get Bluff and a selection of Perform skills for those three levels.

Ruby Rose Knight only applies to paladin levels, not cleric levels, unfortunately. I don't know of any cleric substitution levels for Sune. (Selune could fall under the Purple Staff sub levels, but they are decidedly underwhelming and don't do anything for the OP's main concerns.)

[Downysole]

The character is female.

Well, not for nothing, but that DOES represent the Renly Baratheon type, as he (according to the HBO series) prefers his own sex. So, dressing like the knight in shining armor and attracting the ladies as a lady himself WOULD be that character's kind of thing.

But that's neither here nor there. I'm guessing by you stating that the character is female, you had in mind loose flowing skirts and thingies intended to attract the male side of the species.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html

Leathers. Mucho enchanted leathers.

[willpell]

Leathers. Mucho enchanted leathers.

I am aware of this trope. Sometimes I play it up, but other times it bothers me. This is one of the latter times.

I've been known to put characters in leather before, just for the sake of not having an ACP. But it always bothers me to know that I'm intentionally passing up as much as 6 AC by not taking heavier armor when I have the option.

[Murg]

Take one level of the Mystic Wanderer Prc from Magic of Faerun which lets you add your charisma to your AC as long as you're unarmored. As a cleric of Sune I expect you'd have a high charisma, especially if you take levels of Heartwarder.

[Downysole]

Why don't you explain what you have in mind in terms of the characteristics of the character? You don't want leathers, and you don't want knight in shining armor. You haven't bitten on any of the homebrew material suggested.

What are you aiming for?

[Andezzar]

If you don't want leather, go fo the mithril chain shirt/bikini. :smallwink:

[willpell]

Why don't you explain what you have in mind in terms of the characteristics of the character? You don't want leathers, and you don't want knight in shining armor. You haven't bitten on any of the homebrew material suggested.

What are you aiming for?

Armor-enhancing jewelry fits; Bracers of Armor are probably the way to go, especially if they can be made to look like bracelets. The problem is that they're about 800x as expensive as the equivalent bonus in the form of armor, and any character can use them so I'm still not getting any mileage out of the cleric level's advantage of being allowed to wear armor. As I said, I thought about going cloistered cleric, but they seem way too stuffy, plus the reduction of Hit Dice size is strongly disfavorable (it should be possible to have high HP without being a combative type, especially when your body is a masterwork tool for your chosen profession - come to think of it, remind me to bump monks up to d10s or d12s on the basis of this logic).

Being able to treat a silk negligee as +2 plate is probably a little sillier than what I want here, but some sort of deflection bonus or penalty to attacks based on the character being pretty (if not so sexy that you can't bring yourself to strike it, then at least so intimidatingly perfect-looking that your aim is rattled)...the point is that it needs to be something you are getting because you're a devotee of a sex goddess. If I just wanted the character to be sexy and powerful, I could make her a sorcerer, but the point is that she's sworn to Lastai and empowered thereby to "wage peace" (I dunno if she'll actually go for Vow/Apostle but at least flavorwise she wants to make love not war).

Oh, and if it matters, she's a doppelganger. The backstory is that she was infiltrating the church for kicks, planning on doing the usual treachery thing, only to get a personal visitation from the goddess which convinced the shapeshifter to become a) female, b) Good, and c) devoted to the clerical traditions of the goddess of love. So she's a level 9 character with 4 MoHu HD and a single Cleric level; that she's not optomized is obvious enough, but I still feel like if I have the option of wearing armor and choose not to, I ought to get something in exchange, and I have no idea what constitutes a fair trade.

(This no longer being about Sune, I'll go change the thread title.)

[Andezzar]

Being able to treat a silk negligee as +2 plate is probably a little sillier than what I want here, but some sort of deflection bonus or penalty to attacks based on the character being pretty (if not so sexy that you can't bring yourself to strike it, then at least so intimidatingly perfect-looking that your aim is rattled)...the point is that it needs to be something you are getting because you're a devotee of a sex goddess.How about a Glamered (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#glamered) Full Plate? It is a Full Plate that could look like a negligee.

[willpell]

How about a Glamered (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#glamered) Full Plate? It is a Full Plate that could look like a negligee.

It would still feel like full plate, both to her and to anyone whom she encourages to touch her. Total liebestoeter. Funny enough to be worth doing if I ever make a cleric of Xagyg, but not applicable here.

[Piggy Knowles]

I'm away from my books right now, but I believe that with the Dragontouched feat, she could qualify for the Dragonscale Husk ACF, where she trades her armor proficiencies away for a scaling natural armor bonus. Of course, hardened dragon scales may also be a little different from the direction you're going, but presumably you could choose to drop them when you alter self.

[Downysole]

Armor-enhancing jewelry fits; Bracers of Armor are probably the way to go, especially if they can be made to look like bracelets. The problem is that they're about 800x as expensive as the equivalent bonus in the form of armor, and any character can use them so

In terms of enhancement bonus to AC, they're the same as the enhancement bonus on a suit of armor. The only problem is that steel still helps you out more than bracers do. That 1500 gp for 8 ac can't be beat. The best way to get what you want (without wearing armor) is to stack bonuses from different sources as much as you can.

All of the rules you mentioned (trading armor proficiency for new class skills regarding using charisma for your AC) are going to have to be house-ruled. I've never heard of anything like that except going with a different class. If you intend to be a fighter, maybe something like a swashbuckler.


Oh, and if it matters, she's a doppelganger.
Yeah, that kinda matters. True Seeing is not going to be your friend. Detect Thoughts, however...well, you get the idea. I think you're going to be very strong on the diplomacy side of things. Honestly, you should consider the enchanting mind-affecting type sorceress, bard, or beguiler for this fluff. It would fit better with your ability to convert the heathens to your religion, even if you're not a mace-wielding, shield-toting, plate-wearing cleric.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Okay, how's this grab you. Take a one or two level dip in ninja (CAd) you get wis to ac that goes away when you wear armor, a boost to your reflex and will saves, and if you take two levels, invisibility for a round at a time a few rounds per day. This will give you some treats and a mechanical reason not to wear any armor at all.

[willpell]

If you intend to be a fighter, maybe something like a swashbuckler.

Honestly, you should consider the enchanting mind-affecting type sorceress, bard, or beguiler for this fluff. It would fit better with your ability to convert the heathens to your religion, even if you're not a mace-wielding, shield-toting, plate-wearing cleric.


Okay, how's this grab you. Take a one or two level dip in ninja (CAd) you get wis to ac that goes away when you wear armor, a boost to your reflex and will saves, and if you take two levels, invisibility for a round at a time a few rounds per day. This will give you some treats and a mechanical reason not to wear any armor at all.

Guys, she's already down 7 levels from a Human; anything which cuts so much as a single level off her cleric progression is not an option.

So far the best of the suggestions has been Mystic Wanderer, except a) it's a PRC and she'd be ECL 11 before she could qualify for it, b) she doesn't really "wander" much, having the Temple as a base of operations and spending as much time as the adventurer's life will allow in the area thereof, and c) the class seems very "Faerunish", for lack of a better word, and a lot of its class features seem like slightly silly in-jokes for old-tyme FR fans, or else just generally design decisions I wouldn't be inclined to agree with. (Sleep as an SLA? For a PRC enterable only at level 6, when anything Sleep can affect is at least 2 CR below you?) Still, that one class feature that trades armor proficiency for a Charisma bonus to AC is pretty nigh-perfect; would it be fair to just swap it out for all three AP feats and call it a day?

Really, though, even more appropriate than AC would be Damage Reduction or Fast Healing. Is it by any stretch of the imagination fair to take those at first level? I'm guessing probably "no", but there are some cases where Diplomacy, Intimidate, or Profession (Oldest) skill checks just aren't going to cut the mustard. When an Ogre decides to handle her ungently, or worse yet when the BBEG throws Golems and Oozes at her, she needs to be able to do something about it, preferably something other than running away. Enduring all the damage the foe can dish out while whittling away with both verbal barbs and physical ones seems supremely appropriate.