(PF) Alchemist (Grenadier) advice

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Been looking at making one of these, but I'm not quite sure how. I am looking to make some kind of specialized infantry type character: Uses explosives and various utility items for battlefield control and direct damage. Image wise, Im going for a guy carrying a crossbow and a wearing a gas mask. Sadly, Crossbows suck, so I guess a composite longbow? This is all I have, but I feel like i am missing something.

Should my stat bumps go into INT or DEX?

20 point buy, Human Alchemist (Grenadier)

STR 12
DEX 14 (16)
CON 12
INT 16
WIS 13
CHA 8

1 Point Blank Shot
1 Precise Shot
3 Deadly Aim
5 Rapid Shot
7 Extra Bombs
9 Iron Will
11 Imp. Precise Shot
13 Improved Initiative
15 Improved Iron Will
17 Many Shot
19 Focused Shot? (I wonder if i can get INT to damage twice: once via Alchemical Weapon/Explosive Missile, again via Focused Shot?)

Discoveries
2
(2) Precise Bombs
4 Explosive Missile
6 Smoke Bomb
8 Force Bomb
10 Stink bomb
12 Poison Bomb
14 Infusion
16 Elixir of Life
18 Tanglefoot Bomb
20 Dispelling Bomb
20 Concussive Bomb
20 (Grand Discovery) Fast Healing???

Thanks in advance!

[Larpus]

Ok, first, I don't think any DM would go against re-skinning the longbow as a crossbow, if it is for purely cosmetic reasons.

Now stats, I'd lower Str to 10 (the +1 here shouldn't be too noticeable with your other options) and Wis to 12 (not likely you'll spend a level-up on this) and bump your Int to 17, so it's 18 at level 4.

IMHO, your level up points should go to Int, since you have an easy way to bump Dex with your Mutagen and spells if needed (what? Cat's Grace is nice if you don't have anything else boosting your Dex) and if memory doesn't fail me, there are couple more Dex-boosting items than Int-boosting ones. Not only that, but also part of your combat routine will involve bombs, which are touch AC and have effects (not to mention their number) scaling with Int.

Yes, if you take Focused Shot you do apply Int twice upon usage of Explosive Missile, once for the bomb and once for the arrow/bolt itself; however, I'd go against this discovery (at least from a damage-oriented point of view)for the sole reason it locks you out of full-attacks, which means no Rapid Shot, multiple shootings in a round due to BAB and Manyshot and, with Focused Shot, you'd get more guaranteed damage with a normal full-attack.

The true worth of that discovery is to apply a control-based bomb at a long range, but this will depend on DM style, as if your DM doesn't really make rooms bigger than 60x60, you're better off walking and throwing bombs.

Now to the feats themselves, I'd move Deadly Aim further down the line and grab Focused Shot in its place, reason being that Deadly Aim costs you to-hit and will only be comparable to a 18 Int Focused Shot at level 6, meaning that before that it's sort of a waste.

The counter-argument is that Deadly Aim can also be used with bombs, so the true answer will depend on how much time you spend bombing and how much you spend just shooting arrows.

I wouldn't get Extra Bombs, you're not building around bombs as an almost exclusive source of damage, so +2 bombs/day is pretty small when something else would really bump your non-bomb damage. In its place I'd get Focused Shot, Deadly Aim or Manyshot (Manyshot being the least useful for you).

Improved Initiative is pretty late on your build, I'd either grab it earlier or not really bother (unless there's no other feat for a said level). Improved Iron Will is nice, but I personally question its worth as it's only 1/day, you have to use it before you know if you succeeded or not and you take the new result even if it's worse.

Imp. Precise Shot simply can't be gotten at 11th level, it requires +11 BAB, which only comes at level 15 for Alchemists, so move it down accordingly.

Last thing about your feats...well, I see you have Iron Will there, so I'll play the devil's advocate for a bit and tell you that in this case, Half-Elf or Half-Orc are actually superior options for your race.

Half-Elf actually gives you "Iron Will" via Dual Minded (which also stacks with regular Iron Will, if you think you still need more Will bonuses), +2 extra against enchantment and immunity to sleep (better covering your weak Will). Not only that, but also low-light vision and you can trade the useless Multitalented away for Arcane Training and use wands a CL+1.

Half-Orc gives you "half Iron Will (with benefits)" via Sacred Tattoo. You also get darkvision, +2 to Perception to find hidden things (in place of Intimidating) and +level/2 to bomb damage as a favored class bonus option. Not only that, but Weapon Familiarity (or Chain Fighter, or City Raised) do add couple interesting weapon options.

Discoveries now...move Smoke Bomb to level 2 and grab Fast Bombs, unless your DM is an enthusiast of big battlefields, being able to throw multiple bombs in a round (remember, bombs can be used for Rapid Shot) or just being able to throw a bomb in your full-attack routine is a great boon.

I already said what I had about Explosive Missile, consider it carefully as it can either be a tactically vital discovery or absolutely useless.

Force Bomb is nice, but I'd hold it off until later, when fire resistance/immunity becomes a bigger problem; I'd also advise you to get either it or Concussive Bomb, since they're rather redundant, between the two, my vote goes for Concussive which can be used to deafen enemy casters. Another option to deal with fire resistance/immunity is to treat bombs as a means for control and think of the damage as a nice bonus, ignoring the issue altogether (but I'd only do this if I couldn't spare a single discovery for one that alters the damage type).

Infusion is a bit too high for my taste, but with careful formulae choices and couple wands it shouldn't be a problem, though I'd still try to get it at around level 5.

Elixir of Life can also be questioned, it sure is useful, but only if your group has no Cleric/Oracle who is capable of bringing the dead back and, even so, will depend on how often people die in your group or it'll end up as an useless discovery.

Dispelling Bomb sounds good, but isn't all that great sadly, the reason for that is that you can't choose which effect you're dispelling, so you can either dispell the dread necromancer's "I'm invincible spell" or the Prestidigitation he used to make his eyes red.

For other discovery-related comments: I'd grab Greater Mutagen as buffing both Dex and Con are pretty good. Grand is unnecessary though. Also, do grab Sticky Bomb, it's the single best damage-oriented discovery, as your splash damage is pretty good and it meshes with every other discovery.

Last but not least, if for whatever reason you end up with spare feats, get Extra Discovery, even if you think you got all the ones you wanted with your regular discovery slots, I can certainly at least suggest Tumor Familiar + Die for Your Master, cheapest "auto-resurrect" available and pretty great for other uses as well (if you want to, you can even grab Improved Familiar for a mini bodyguard). Other options involve the Simulacrum-related ones, which are all pretty great supposing you have the in-game time needed to make use of them.

[eggs]

With Iron Will and Tanglefoot Bomb, I'd be tempted to add the Dual-Minded Half Elf race for the Bramblebrewer archetype in place of Human and Iron Will.

The favored class bonus is amazing for Bomb-throwers, and briar bombs are very good for control.

[grarrrg]

Now stats, I'd lower Str to 10 (the +1 here shouldn't be too noticeable with your other options) and Wis to 12 (not likely you'll spend a level-up on this) and bump your Int to 17, so it's 18 at level 4.

...
Last thing about your feats...well, I see you have Iron Will there, so I'll play the devil's advocate for a bit and tell you that in this case, Half-Elf or Half-Orc are actually superior options for your race.

Half-Elf actually gives you "Iron Will" via Dual Minded (which also stacks with regular Iron Will, if you think you still need more Will bonuses), +2 extra against enchantment and immunity to sleep (better covering your weak Will). Not only that, but also low-light vision and you can trade the useless Multitalented away for Arcane Training and use wands a CL+1.

Half-Orc gives you "half Iron Will (with benefits)" via Sacred Tattoo. You also get darkvision, +2 to Perception to find hidden things (in place of Intimidating) and +level/2 to bomb damage as a favored class bonus option. Not only that, but Weapon Familiarity (or Chain Fighter, or City Raised) do add couple interesting weapon options.

Seconded.


With Iron Will and Tanglefoot Bomb, I'd be tempted to add the Dual-Minded Half Elf race for the Bramblebrewer archetype in place of Human and Iron Will.

The favored class bonus is amazing for Bomb-throwers, and briar bombs are very good for control.

And/or Thirded.

Although the Range Increment bonus for Half-Elves is not as useful when combined with Grenadier.
If Tanglefoot will be a 'go-to' option, then do Half-Elf/Bramble Brewer. If not, then Half-Orc is overall better.

[Bhaakon]

The counter-argument is that Deadly Aim can also be used with bombs, so the true answer will depend on how much time you spend bombing and how much you spend just shooting arrows.

Deadly aim specifically doesn't apply to touch attacks (with the exception of firearms), so it can't work with splash weapons like bombs.

[Larpus]

Deadly aim specifically doesn't apply to touch attacks (with the exception of firearms), so it can't work with splash weapons like bombs.
Good catch, for some reason I never remember that detail...

[grarrrg]

Deadly aim specifically doesn't apply to touch attacks (with the exception of firearms), so it can't work with splash weapons like bombs.

Isn't playing the Unless game "fun".

Deadly Aim works with Ranged Weapons (YAY!),
Unless that Ranged Weapon targets Touch AC (BOO!),
Unless that Weapon also happens to be a Firearm (YAY!),
Unless that Firearm happens to be a Scatter Weapon (BOO!).

[Bhaakon]

It would bother me more if it could be used with splash weapons and scatter shot, to be honest. It's clunky mechanically, but getting bonus damage for precise targeting with an AoE attack rubs me the wrong way. I think it should work for rays, though.

[Larpus]

I'd agree with you if there were an alternative, not necessarily a "Sloppy Aim" that only works with splash weapons, but some other means of making them more useful as a whole...I mean, they don't even let you use Quickdraw with alchemical items without any good reason.

[silverwolfer]

is this class a homebrew or something?

[eggs]

Alchemist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist) or Grenadier (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/grenadier)? Neither is homebrew.

[silverwolfer]

oo pathfinder oh okay , sorry am not familial with many of the d20 variants.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'd get Smoke Bombs at 2, Stink Bomb at 3. Exploit the fact that you have a (kind of neutered - half the radius and only lasts 1 round) stinking cloud effect 2 whole levels before the wizard does!

Confusion Bomb can also be good, since it has no save to negate or SR. But it needs a ranged touch and doesn't hit multiple foes (best use of confusion is getting foes to kill each other, a la Xykon vs. the Sapphire Guard). Still, pretty decent debuff to toss out.

Dispelling Bomb does suck due to not choosing which effect you dispel, but you're not losing much sticking it onto a stink bomb (dispelling bomb has no *, it can combine; but lack of damage makes it useless with a lot of other * effects anyway, like confusion bomb) and hoping to dispel something good, so you might want to get it.

If you are getting Improved Initiative... get Extra Discovery (Tumor Familiar) instead. Snag one of the +4 init granting ones, like Compsognathus, and for the same price of 1 feat you get that +4 init, plus Alertness, plus a buddy to aid another on your skill checks and stuff.