F'n Lyricist & Theurge [PF]

[CreganTur]

Technically I guess you'd say we're a 3.P group- Pathfinder core plus you can pull from almost any 3.5 class.

I'm going to be DMing a mid to high level game soon- starting somewhere between 10 & 12 (it's going to depend on where the current game ends b/c I'm allowing the new-to-PF players carry over their characters for simplicity's sake).

I'm allowing one of my players to use an early-entry build for Theurge. He's been playing since 1st edition and is DMing our current game. After some conversation he decided to create a divine version of Precocious Apprentice (we just call it Precocious Disciple) so that it's 1 & 1 of Wizard and Cleric and then you can start Theurge at 3rd level.

Anyway, he told me about the F'n Lyricist prestige class (can't spell the real first word) and how a lot of optimization threads say that at 20th level with this prestige, and using the early entry method described above, you cast as 18 wiz, 18 cler, and 11 Bard (drop from Theurge early, grab 1 lvl of bard, and then F'n Lyricist).

Anyway, the argument as I understand it is that the F'nL gives 1&1 spellcasting increase to previous caster classes you have. You choose Theurge and Bard, which means your Theurge levels up Divine and Arcane, and the Bard casting levels as well.

I can see why people have come to this conclusion, but I'm not sold on the idea. Thoughts?

[eggs]

"F'n Lyrist" is apt. I approve. :smalltongue:

On topic, you can't advance Mystic Theurge through other prestige classes.
EDIT: There are exceptions (Uncanny Trickster/Legacy Champion), but they use a different advancement mechanism than you're talking about.

[Peat]

It's not like the guy with 18th CL Wizard and Cleric (which PF Theurge can't do I believe) really needs his 11th level Bard spells as well anyway...

[CreganTur]

I totally agree with that.

He mostly seemed interested in the Bard's class abilities, which he could easily retain with that 1 lvl of bard and then taking F'nL. Then he just chooses Wizard and Cleric as the casting classes to increase so he gets his 18th lvl casting abilities and has a few extra 1st lvl spells as a Bard that are truly useless.

[Amphetryon]

Relevant (http://coboard.wikia.com/wiki/Tools_for_Fochlucan_Lyrist_Builds) link and build ideas.

[grarrrg]

optimization threads say that at 20th level ...you cast as 18 wiz, 18 cler, and 11 Bard (drop from Theurge early

Anyway, the argument as I understand it is that the F'nL gives 1&1 spellcasting increase to previous caster classes you have. You choose Theurge and Bard, which means your Theurge levels up Divine and Arcane, and the Bard casting levels as well.

You cannot progress Prestige class casting like this.


I'm allowing one of my players to use an early-entry build for Theurge....so that it's 1 & 1 of Wizard and Cleric and then you can start Theurge at 3rd level.

drop from Theurge early, grab 1 lvl of bard, and then F'n Lyricist

I'm assuming you dropped the Skill Reqs for Fochlucan Lyrist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=2) by 3 points (as per PF skill system).

But as-is he does NOT have Evasion. What's his 'trick' for getting it?

[Answerer]

Maybe it's "have a reasonable DM who doesn't require what is easily among the dumbest prereqs in all of 3.x."

[grarrrg]

Maybe it's "have a reasonable DM who doesn't require what is easily among the dumbest prereqs in all of 3.x."

Hey, at least Evasion can be useful to the class.
Makes more sense than Invisible Blade's pre-req's anyway...

[Answerer]

The Invisible Blade's prereqs are very dumb, but at least the Invisible Blade isn't a dual-advancement-type PrC that requires a class feature from a third class. Those feats, useless as they are to the Invisible Blade, can at least be taken without a completely pointless detour into a class you aren't advancing.

[Amphetryon]

Maybe it's "have a reasonable DM who doesn't require what is easily among the dumbest prereqs in all of 3.x."

For a game starting at 10th level or higher, I'm guessing the work-around is "Ring of Evasion".

[maysarahs]

Most of my comment is "IIRC" but I can't provide any sources unfortunately. Rest assured though, I remember a similar query on the boards some time ago

I don't think this is RAW legal because theurges only allow you to choose to advance spellcasting progressions that GRANT casting. Theurges only advance spellcasting, they do not grant it. Thus, a second theurge will advance existing granted progressions, but you cannot advance an existing advancement.

Thus it is legal to advance Wizard, and Sorcerer together with Ultimate Magus, but if you pick up Suel Arcanamach later, and then go into a theurge class, you can only pick two for the second theurge class to advance. You cannot take Sorcerer, Wizard, then progress both with Ultimate Magus, then pick up Druid, and Arcane Hierophant, and expect that one level of Arcane Hierophant that progresses both arcane and divine casting to advance all three of Druid, Sorcerer and Wizard casting. You must choose one divine progression you have been granted, and then one arcane progression granted to progress.

[Answerer]

For a game starting at 10th level or higher, I'm guessing the work-around is "Ring of Evasion".
That only works if your DM allows you to "have had it" back when you needed it to qualify for F'n Lyrist on time.

[grarrrg]

That only works if your DM allows you to "have had it" back when you needed it to qualify for F'n Lyrist on time.

Actually, level 10 is the earliest possible you can even qualify for Lyrist due to the Skill Reqs (barring questionable Shenanigans anyway).
And the OP's listed build is (due a to Homebrew feat) Wizard 1/Cleric 1/Bard 1/Mystic Theurge 7

[eggs]

The prerequisites were the point of the Lyrist. As a throwback to 1e.

[Answerer]

Where those things made much more sense than they do in 3.5, I'm sure.

Just because it was intentional doesn't mean it isn't stupid or badly designed. The F'n Lyrist's prerequisites are both.

[Akal Saris]

He could get Evasion with 2 feats for shape soulmeld and open chakra for the soulmeld that gives evasion - thieves gloves, maybe? That would give the evasion class feature without levels in rogue or monk, though it could be dispelled.

[Grim Reader]

Technically I guess you'd say we're a 3.P group- Pathfinder core plus you can pull from almost any 3.5 class.

I'm going to be DMing a mid to high level game soon- starting somewhere between 10 & 12 (it's going to depend on where the current game ends b/c I'm allowing the new-to-PF players carry over their characters for simplicity's sake).

I'm allowing one of my players to use an early-entry build for Theurge. He's been playing since 1st edition and is DMing our current game. After some conversation he decided to create a divine version of Precocious Apprentice (we just call it Precocious Disciple) so that it's 1 & 1 of Wizard and Cleric and then you can start Theurge at 3rd level.

Anyway, he told me about the F'n Lyricist prestige class (can't spell the real first word) and how a lot of optimization threads say that at 20th level with this prestige, and using the early entry method described above, you cast as 18 wiz, 18 cler, and 11 Bard (drop from Theurge early, grab 1 lvl of bard, and then F'n Lyricist).

Anyway, the argument as I understand it is that the F'nL gives 1&1 spellcasting increase to previous caster classes you have. You choose Theurge and Bard, which means your Theurge levels up Divine and Arcane, and the Bard casting levels as well.

I can see why people have come to this conclusion, but I'm not sold on the idea. Thoughts?

The Lyricist was originally made to allow players who had qualified for the 1st edition Bard to port their characters over. It is a triple-advancement class and therefore requires a lot of qualifying.

It advances divine and arcane spellcasting, bardic abilities and skill points, and throws full BaB on top of that. So you need elements from three classes to qualify.

First off, you cannot use Percocious Apprentice to qualify for a dual-advancement class. That is both Wizards ruling and RAW. Wizards ruled that PA does not give you the ability to qualify for a PrC, and RAW once you get the ability to cast second-level spells in our second class, the PA-spell becomes a spell slot for that class.

You are better off with heighten/versatile, which has been ruled to work.

Second, if you dont want to lose the spellcasting advancements, you need to apply them to a class with a spellcasting table. Mystic Theurge doesn't have one.

There is not "lots of optimization threads" saying so.

[Darrin]

First off, you cannot use Percocious Apprentice to qualify for a dual-advancement class. That is both Wizards ruling and RAW.


The original designer posted his *opinion* on a message board. That is not an official ruling from Wizards, nor is it RAW.

Early entry antics fall under the purview of "Ask the DM".

[CreganTur]

Wow, this sparked a lot more talk than I thought it would.

I totally agree with what's been said about not being able to advance Theurge and the cheese with trying to level bard casting as well. That's why I came here- needed to understand the concrete reason of why that can't work. Good to know that you can't technically advance one PrC from another- that'll help me in explaining my ruling to my player.

I'm totally fine with allowing Precocious Apprentice (and homebrew Precocious Disciple- what's good for the goose and all that) qualify someone for Theurge- technically it does give them the ability to cast 2nd level spells, so it works. Also, I don't care that it just becomes a new 2nd lvl spell slot after they gain the ability through standard progression to cast 2nd lvl spells- that's actually a good thing to me. Better than always having that spell slot be dedicated to a "chosen spell" or something like that.

I missed the Evasion requirement for the F'n Lyrist (don't know why I thought it was Lyricist), but that's realy easy to fix. I don't have a problem with allowing a ring of evasion.

[Darrin]

Good to know that you can't technically advance one PrC from another- that'll help me in explaining my ruling to my player.


Actually, you can... Uncanny Trickster or Legacy Champion can advance another PrCs class features while taking something else. While this generally doesn't help casters, in some cases it can be used to increase skill points, BAB, or initiator level a little faster than normal. (You can also loop them back to each other: use Uncanny Trickster to advance Legacy Champion, which then advances Uncanny Trickster, which then... well, that's the sort of thing that will get books thrown at your head.)

There is a way to get "Triple 9's", but it involved Ardent, Ur-Priest, and Sublime Chord. I think this might be it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12411914&postcount=9).




I missed the Evasion requirement for the F'n Lyrist (don't know why I thought it was Lyricist), but that's realy easy to fix. I don't have a problem with allowing a ring of evasion.

Spelldancer 2 is generally recommended, but I always thought Shape Soulmeld: Airstep Sandals and Open Least Chakra: Feet was more elegant.

[Answerer]

Good to know that you can't technically advance one PrC from another- that'll help me in explaining my ruling to my player.
You can advance a Prestige Class with another – if that Prestige Class has its own spellcasting, as Assassin does. You cannot advance a Prestige Class that is, itself, only advancing other classes.

[Grim Reader]

The original designer posted his *opinion* on a message board. That is not an official ruling from Wizards, nor is it RAW.

Early entry antics fall under the purview of "Ask the DM".

Actually, it is a Sage ruling in response to community request.

And you are confusing it with the RAW. The RAW is the fact that Precocious Apprentice, as written, does not work for early entry in to a dual advancement PrC. When you get 2nd level spells in your second class, PA kicks in and turns the extra spell in your first class into an extra spell slot for your second class. That is not anyones opinion, that is the way the feat is written.

If you are going to argue RAw for an early entry into a prC, it ought to be RAW that works.

You can, of course, ask you DM to hoserule it, but it is just as easy to have him hoiserule the requirements in the first place.