Can you take 10 on charisma checks?

[Morithias]

There is a prestige class that I am using called "the connection" which gets the following ability.

New Friend: Each time this is gained, the connection makes an especially useful contact. Treat this contact as a cohort gained through the use of the Leadership feat, but the contact is not always available when the connection needs him or her. Whenever the connection needs the new contact's services, he should roll a Charisma check against a DC of 20 minus his connection prestige level. Success indicates the contact is available for the completion of any one reasonable task.

Currently I have 5 levels in connection, and a charisma score of 24 (+7).

Can you take 10 on charisma checks? If so that means that so long as I don't abuse the power, I could call upon them whenever needed basically.

[Psyren]

From what I can see of strict RAW, taking 10 is only allowed for skill checks, not ability checks. You may have to run this by your DM.

[Slipperychicken]

SRD; Ability Checks and Caster Level Checks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#taking10)
The normal take 10 and take 20 rules apply for ability checks. Neither rule applies to caster level checks.

As long as you satisfy the normal requirements for Take 10 (i.e. not threatened, distracted, or in combat), yes, you can Take 10 on an ability check.

[Deadlights]

Now, RAW aside, if someone who was socially awkward came up to you and began to try and make up for it by speaking more slowly than usual, in what world does this person succeed in being charismatic?

[Rubik]

Now, RAW aside, if someone who was socially awkward came up to you and began to try and make up for it by speaking more slowly than usual, in what world does this person succeed in being charismatic?That's not Taking 10. That's rolling badly.

Taking 10 is doing something you do all the time, so you're not rushed but you're not being super-careful either.

[Jarian]

Now, RAW aside, if someone who was socially awkward came up to you and began to try and make up for it by speaking more slowly than usual, in what world does this person succeed in being charismatic?

Assuming you're talking about taking 20 (which takes as long as 20 normal attempts), then that's as stirring a speech as the normally uncharismatic character can muster. He had time to gather his thoughts, compose his words, and then do his best to sway you with his conviction alone, rather than charming words (diplomacy) or guile (bluff).

[Psyren]

As long as you satisfy the normal requirements for Take 10 (i.e. not threatened, distracted, or in combat), yes, you can Take 10 on an ability check.

Missed that line, thanks for that

[dextercorvia]

Assuming you're talking about taking 20 (which takes as long as 20 normal attempts), then that's as stirring a speech as the normally uncharismatic character can muster. He had time to gather his thoughts, compose his words, and then do his best to sway you with his conviction alone, rather than charming words (diplomacy) or guile (bluff).

It takes as long as 20 normal attempts because you are assumed to have tried that many times. I would apply a pretty hefty circumstance penalty to someone trying 20 Charisma checks in a row for the same thing. (most of the time.)

[Slipperychicken]

Missed that line, thanks for that

Any time, Psyren.

Taking 20 on a speech would look like delivering the same speech 20 times, and you'd incur all penalties associated with failing the check and forcing your audience to sit through it 20 times. The speaker would not benefit from Taking 20, although she could Take 10, assuming she was not distracted or in combat (in which cases, she would need to roll as normal).

[Keneth]

I think it might be impossible since making a Charisma check usually puts you in the spotlight, which is a stressful situation. Social repercussions are just as bad as physical ones as far as I'm concerned,

[Ashtagon]

Hmm...

What's the difference between a Charisma check with a DC determined by your class level, and a class level check modified by your Charisma?

[Reaver225]

Really, what you need is a memory-wiping spell of the last X minutes at will. At that point, there's no issue of failure so you can take 20 in most situations.

Or alternately, prescience at will.

Though that might be hard to pick up in a game.

[bigstipidfighte]

This is really an Ask Your DM question rather than an Ask The Playground question IMO, unless you already did and couldn't get an answer.

[dextercorvia]

I think it might be impossible since making a Charisma check usually puts you in the spotlight, which is a stressful situation. Social repercussions are just as bad as physical ones as far as I'm concerned,

Stress is not one of the exceptions to taking 10.


When your character is not being threatened or distracted, you may choose to take 10.

Distraction may be up to the DM, but the check itself should never be able to distract you from the check.

[Keneth]

Both "distracted" and "threatened" are not actual game terms in this context. Stress is the social equivalent of being threatened with actual physical trauma. Or in other words, it's completely up to the DM if they let you take 10 in such situations. The ability itself says you need to "roll a Charisma check", so I doubt it's supposed to be possible to take 10 or take 20 in this case.

[Rubik]

This is really an Ask Your DM question rather than an Ask The Playground question IMO, unless you already did and couldn't get an answer.Um...there actually is an answer. See above.


Both "distracted" and "threatened" are not actual game terms in this context. Stress is the social equivalent of being threatened with actual physical trauma. Or in other words, it's completely up to the DM if they let you take 10 in such situations. The ability itself says you need to "roll a Charisma check", so I doubt it's supposed to be possible to take 10 or take 20 in this case.Some people find it stressful. Some people find it exhilarating. One of these things would require a roll, and the other would allow taking 10.

[Greyfeld85]

Both "distracted" and "threatened" are not actual game terms in this context. Stress is the social equivalent of being threatened with actual physical trauma. Or in other words, it's completely up to the DM if they let you take 10 in such situations.

Stress is not the same thing as being threatened with physical violence, and should never be taken into account for social situations. There are situations in which you can be distracted or hurried, in which case taking 10 would be out of the question (using diplomacy to convince the guards you're innocent while they're in the middle of clapping you in irons comes to mind), but any situation in which you're not actively pressured by an outside source can not be quantifiably considered threatening.


The ability itself says you need to "roll a Charisma check", so I doubt it's supposed to be possible to take 10 or take 20 in this case.

The SRD also says this about skill checks:


To make a skill check, roll 1d20 and add your character’s skill modifier for that skill.

Taking 10 is treated as if you rolled a 10 on a D20, always. You're focusing too much on the specific wording used for the rule inside a bubble, instead of taking context into account.

[Thomasinx]

I think it might be impossible since making a Charisma check usually puts you in the spotlight, which is a stressful situation. Social repercussions are just as bad as physical ones as far as I'm concerned,

I would considering climbing a wall 50ft up significantly more 'stressful', yet you're allowed to take 10 in that situation.

Taking 10 has nothing to do with repercussions. It depends on whether or not you have the time to make sure to do a decent job. However, taking 20 does depend on repercussions, since it expects 19 fails before the success.

If you want to think of it in-game terms, it's like making sure to remember the person's name before you talk to them so you don't address them as "Stinky Steve".

[Keneth]

Stress is not the same thing as being threatened with physical violence, and should never be taken into account for social situations.
Says who? You are almost always threatened and distracted in a social situation.


There are situations in which you can be distracted or hurried, in which case taking 10 would be out of the question
And yet "hurried" is not one of the conditions, it merely results in stress, which by your own definition should not be taken into account.


but any situation in which you're not actively pressured by an outside source can not be quantifiably considered threatening.
I agree, in any case where the check could be considered a "passive" activity, the player should be allowed to take 10. You can take 10 (or even 20 in this case) on a Strength check to move a rock. You can't take 10 while you're arm wrestling. But I can't really think of a social situation where I would allow my players to take 10 on a Charisma check. Writing a letter maybe? I suppose indirect communication could be such a case.


Taking 10 is treated as if you rolled a 10 on a D20, always. You're focusing too much on the specific wording used for the rule inside a bubble, instead of taking context into account.
I'm afraid I must throw this argument back in your face. You're focusing too much on trying to justify why this would work by RAW instead of looking at the actual context. The way I see it, the ability requires you to actively convince your contact to help you every time you need his services. I firmly believe that RAI in this case require you to actually make that roll.


Taking 10 has nothing to do with repercussions. It depends on whether or not you have the time to make sure to do a decent job.
You generally don't have time to do a decent job on a charisma check, which is what makes it stressful. Taking time to think about what you're gonna say would just make you seem socially awkward (which is the equivalent of making a poor Charisma check).

[Morithias]

You generally don't have time to do a decent job on a charisma check, which is what makes it stressful. Taking time to think about what you're gonna say would just make you seem socially awkward (which is the equivalent of making a poor Charisma check).

Just to pipe in, what if the person had been trained since basically birth to be proper and great at this kind of stuff. Excellent Decorum...like say... A Prince. (Which is what the PC is). To the point where he's spent 18 years studying protocol to the point where he can recite the proper placement of a dinner party's silverware from memory.

Edit: Also what if you planned what you were going to say ahead of time?

[dextercorvia]

@ Keneth: Do you also disallow the use of take 10 on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks?

[Deophaun]

I agree, in any case where the check could be considered a "passive" activity, the player should be allowed to take 10. You can take 10 (or even 20 in this case) on a Strength check to move a rock. You can't take 10 while you're arm wrestling. But I can't really think of a social situation where I would allow my players to take 10 on a Charisma check. Writing a letter maybe? I suppose indirect communication could be such a case.
The problem is such a ruling makes taking 10 useless. Any situation that you'd allow a take 10 in, the character could also take 20. So, why bother taking 10 at all?

Want to jump over a chasm? Sorry, you might fall and hurt yourself, that's stressful, so no taking 10. You want to craft a sword? Sorry, you might botch it and ruin the materials, so no taking 10. You want to climb a cliff face? Well, naturally you might slip, and being that high is stressful, no taking 10. You're swimming and you want to take a 10? Pfft, don't make me laugh! Take 10 on open locks? There might be a trap, you could jam the door, or a host of other bad things! Etc, etc.

So, what we've done here is just completely hollowed out the utility of skills, because we've equated consequences for failure with "being distracted or threatened," even though the PHB explicitly draws a distinction.

[Greyfeld85]

I agree, in any case where the check could be considered a "passive" activity, the player should be allowed to take 10. You can take 10 (or even 20 in this case) on a Strength check to move a rock. You can't take 10 while you're arm wrestling. But I can't really think of a social situation where I would allow my players to take 10 on a Charisma check. Writing a letter maybe? I suppose indirect communication could be such a case.

Why couldn't you take 10 while arm wrestling? You're not being threatened by anyone/anything, and nothing's really distracting you. Disallowing taking 10 based on stressful situations created by the fear of losing would be more akin to a Flaw, rather than an inherent part of the system. And as it's already been stated, if you're going to determine that stress and fear of failure always nullifies the ability to take 10, then the rule is moot and broken, because there is no situation under the sun in which there isn't some sort of inherent risk of failure, and consequences for that failure.



I'm afraid I must throw this argument back in your face. You're focusing too much on trying to justify why this would work by RAW instead of looking at the actual context. The way I see it, the ability requires you to actively convince your contact to help you every time you need his services. I firmly believe that RAI in this case require you to actually make that roll.

I'm glad we cleared up that this discussion is based on your point of view, rather than RAW itself. In that case, I feel we can move on to a different topic.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Just to pipe in, what if the person had been trained since basically birth to be proper and great at this kind of stuff. Excellent Decorum...like say... A Prince. (Which is what the PC is). To the point where he's spent 18 years studying protocol to the point where he can recite the proper placement of a dinner party's silverware from memory.

Edit: Also what if you planned what you were going to say ahead of time?

I'd ask why he's making a raw cha check instead of a cha based skill check. A raw cha check that isn't an untrained skill check is the character simply projecting his force of personality. No words would be spoken. I'd imagine something like a performer that just came on stage striking a pose and just letting the audience bask in his awesomeness for a moment before beginning to perform.