Low charisma swashbuckler/duelist types?

[Scarlet-Devil]

So, a buddy and I were arguing recently about the concept of a charisma-dumped duelist character (when I say duelist, I mean specifically that we were both envisioning the archetype of a rapier-wielding fighter). I said that dueling, or maybe more specifically 'fencing' in this case, was just a fighting style, and didn't necessarily have to have any other attributes attached to it. He was arguing, and I do tend to agree with this somewhat, that that type of swordsman has cultural connotations, i.e. flamboyancy and a sense of personal honor; a 'professional' duelist isn't just a fighter, he's a sort of showman with an image to worry about.

If that were the case, and you were designing that kind of archetypal, single-hand duelist character, but wanted to dump charisma, how would you justify it? Would he be ugly and slur all of his witty one-liners?

Also, as a sort of bonus question: is narcissism a trait of low or high charisma?

[eggs]

If that were the case, and you were designing that kind of archetypal, single-hand duelist character, but wanted to dump charisma, how would you justify it? Would he be ugly and slur all of his witty one-liners?
I wouldn't tie looks into it.

Charisma is basically a measure of "presence," so I'd just play that down. Maybe the character is socially awkward, maybe socially indifferent, either way, I wouldn't touch the one-liners.

As a character, I'd probably go closer toward the stereotypical chess player than a three musketeers-type figure. Approach a duel, maybe give a cursory greeting, and slice up the other guy in the most efficient way possible. No flashy moves, no taunting or jeers, just a skilled swordsman applying his skill.

Framed that way, I think the concept flows very easily.

Also, as a sort of bonus question: is narcissism a trait of low or high charisma?
Yes. :smalltongue:

[Medic!]

There's no reason that a low charisma score couldn't be demonstrated by being a snotty spoiled rich kid. I'm envisioning Jezal Dan Luthar in his younger days. Good looking, flamboyant, and after spending more than 5 minutes in direct contact with him you wanna deck him.

EDIT: At our table, 4 out of 5 people immediately attach low charisma to "ugly and smelly" and high charisma to "babe magnet" and it irks me enough to hop over to the D&D Stereotypes thread :smallfurious:

Bonus answer: narcicism is to charisma what an assassin is to character class levels (completely independant, unless you choose for it to be otherwise)

[KnightOfV]

Commodore Norrington in Pirates of the Carribean is a good example of the low CHA swashbuckler/deulist. In the first movie his 'personality' is nothing but stiff military protocol and clipped politeness. His interactions with Elizabeth show he has zero ability with people, as he clumsily tries to arrange a marriage proposal with the younger girl. In the second movie, having his career taken from him, he becomes a smelly wretched drunk, with no friends or allies. Yet he holds his own in sabre fights with Sparrow and whatshis name, Orlando Bloom's character.

Contrast with Jack Sparrow who can talk his enemies out of killing him, rivals into helping him, and has a girl (or several) in every town. All that DESPITE being a smelly pirate with too much makeup and questionable sanity. THAT is high charisma to me.


Bonus: Narcissism usually goes to high CHA characters in my mind, because they KNOW they are important, and self-confidence/willpower seems to be a large part of D&D charasma

[Medic!]

Perfect examples! I'd like to toss the infamous Kingslayer into the mix as well, from A Song of Ice and Fire.

A consideration I didn't think of it until you mentioned it just now, narcicism could also very well be attributed to a high cha and a low wis :smallwink:

[Scarlet-Devil]

Commodore Norrington in Pirates of the Carribean is a good example of the low CHA swashbuckler/deulist. In the first movie his 'personality' is nothing but stiff military protocol and clipped politeness. His interactions with Elizabeth show he has zero ability with people, as he clumsily tries to arrange a marriage proposal with the younger girl. In the second movie, having his career taken from him, he becomes a smelly wretched drunk, with no friends or allies. Yet he holds his own in sabre fights with Sparrow and whatshis name, Orlando Bloom's character.

Contrast with Jack Sparrow who can talk his enemies out of killing him, rivals into helping him, and has a girl (or several) in every town. All that DESPITE being a smelly pirate with too much makeup and questionable sanity. THAT is high charisma to me.


Bonus: Narcissism usually goes to high CHA characters in my mind, because they KNOW they are important, and self-confidence/willpower seems to be a large part of D&D charasma

I think that's an excellent example, and I also like that reasoning for narcissism/charisma.


Perfect examples! I'd like to toss the infamous Kingslayer into the mix as well, from A Song of Ice and Fire.


What about Jaime makes you think he'd have low charisma? He seems pretty full of himself to me (if we're saying that charisma is tied to self-perception).

[Medic!]

Actually, after going back and reading the PHB's charisma entry, I'm way off on Jaime Lannister. Definately a massive charisma (I always statted him out in my mind as a paladin anyway). PHB: This
ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one
is perceived by others in a social setting.

[KnightOfV]

Actually, after going back and reading the PHB's charisma entry, I'm way off on Jaime Lannister. Definately a massive charisma (I always statted him out in my mind as a paladin anyway).

PALADIN?? JAMIE?? :smalleek: I always figured if anyone in the SoIaF books was up for Paladinhood it would be Eddard and his son Rob. They have the Lawful Stupid Good and Honor thing going on, and not many in that world do.

I agree with you on the Charisma, and Jamie does have his own kind of honor later on, but besides shiny armor, I'm not sure Paladin suits him. Also, Kid. Window. I don't know a DM in the world that wouldn't make him fall for that.:smallbiggrin: To each their own though.

Uh... back on topic... Brienne is a fighter in that series who I'd say dumped Charisma (not because she's described as ugly, but because she seems so uncomfortable with herself and awkward). The Hound also, as he is also unsure of his station ("I'm no ser") seems aimless, and really doesn't have any social skills besides 'kill' or 'freak people out'.

Fun conversation though, as you can see everyone's opinion on charisma is going to be a little different so you can definitely play it a lot of ways.

[Kavurcen]

Talking about Song of Ice and Fire gave me an interesting thought.
Wouldn't Tyrion be the perfect example of an ugly character with high charisma? Not very handsome, but excellent at influencing people.

[Medic!]

I would've called Jaime a fallen paladin when he watched the Mad King boil a man alive in his armor for no reason, personally, but he still fits the image too well. Brienne would definately be a cha-dump fighter. I hate to derail the thread too far or spoil any story points, but somewhere someone (official I do believe) statted everyone from the series out....they were almost all lvl 3 with an overly (imo) heavy dose of commoner and aristocrat levels.

[gorfnab]

Here is a build I came up with a while ago. High Dex/Int based one-handed duelist fencer/swashbuckler.


Human or Strongheart Halfling
1. Cobra Strike (UA) Deceptive Strike (PHBII) Monk - Camendine Monk, Combat Expertise, B: Dodge
2. Cobra Strike (UA) Monk - B: Mobility
3. Swashbuckler - Deadly Defense, B: Weapon Finesse
4. Swashbuckler
5. Swashbuckler
6. Thief Acrobat - Combat Reflexes
7. Thief Acrobat
8. Thief Acrobat
9. Thief Acrobat - Einhander
10. Thief Acrobat
11. Warblade
12. Warblade or Duelist - Ironheart Aura
13. Duelist
14. Duelist
15. Duelist - Robilar's Gambit
16. Duelist
17. Duelist
18. Duelist - Stormgaurd Warrior
19. Duelist
20. Duelist

Levels 10 through 12 can be rearranged depending on your needs. The current setup gives you Improved Evasion and Uncanny Dodge at these levels. However if you don't need Improved Evasion take one less level of Thief Acrobat and move the first level of Warblade to level 10. If you don't need Uncanny Dodge don't take the 2nd level of Warblade and instead go into Duelist a level early. If you don't need either abilities take Warblade at level 10 and enter Duelist at level 11.

If flaws are available pick up EWP: Broadblade Shortsword (pre-errata version if possible) or Versatile Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick (may need to rearrange later feats). If traits are available pick up Cautious.

The Monk and Swashbuckler levels (levels 1 through 5) can be switched around to taste. I personally like Swash 1/ Monk 2/ Swash 2

[erikun]

I'm not sure if you'll understand this - you may, based on your avatar - but here is a character with "good looks" but a personality of a muddy gutter.
http://images.wikia.com/mlp/images/c/c0/PrinceBlueblood.pngMost definitely good looks but low charisma.


I would have no problem imagining a rapier-wielding fencer being ugly, uncouth, or just plain uninteresting... just as I would have no problem imagining an axe-wielding barbarian being good looking and speaking with proper grammar. If I must choose an established trope, there is an endless supply of haughty nobles with either poor manners, poor social skills, or just delusional egocentrical tendencies. All are good examples of "refined" tastes such as fencing but poor personal charisma.

[GenghisDon]

I think I'd prefer the ugly, but witty in a nasty/unpleasant way for a not-quite-archetypal "light" swordsman. It's different, at least for a PC.


There are a fair number of feats that make high charisma pretty good for a warrior...intricate swordplay (adds chr bonus to AC, can't have more than med armor/encumbrance, only with rapier/1h sword) from Conan comes to mind as a great duelist feat.