Balancing Pvp

[Mindleshank]

So guys I am trying to balance out PvP for some guys that cannot commit to a full on campaign. This is what got so far, tell what ya think.


Characters of the entire player in Pvp will have double HP to ensure a fair and just fight occurs with an abrupt one-hit knockout occurring too early.
All consumables will be henceforth banned to keep the protection of the stability of players’ character’s scores in the Pvp and to avoid the unnecessary “buffing” round.
Player shall not use invisibility, burrowing, flying, or any other action that prohibits any offensive actions that could be taken by their opponent that is not explicitly stated in the rule books or commit any other action that impedes the progress of the fight.
No player can have an ECL higher than his battle dictates as per the two combatants.
To ensure that all player characters are viable in the arena of Pvp no player shall have complete immunity to any one type of attack, i.e. magic, physical, etc.
No player characters can use any ability that is abnormal, unnatural, or otherwise supernatural unless specifically stated in the rule books. i.e. Birds cannot throw a bag like a human can.
All dice rolls must be made using the roll20.net system to ensure the integrity of the Players.
In order to keep the peace among players and keep in accordance with the rule books each of Player Characters will have one challenge per match that they can use on their opponent at any time. If the challenger is right then they are issued one more challenge, if the challenger is wrong they lose their challenge and cannot challenge anymore actions by their opponent.

[SowZ]

So guys I am trying to balance out PvP for some guys that cannot commit to a full on campaign. This is what got so far, tell what ya think.


Characters of the entire player in Pvp will have double HP to ensure a fair and just fight occurs with an abrupt one-hit knockout occurring too early.
All consumables will be henceforth banned to keep the protection of the stability of players’ character’s scores in the Pvp and to avoid the unnecessary “buffing” round.
Player shall not use invisibility, burrowing, flying, or any other action that prohibits any offensive actions that could be taken by their opponent that is not explicitly stated in the rule books or commit any other action that impedes the progress of the fight.
No player can have an ECL higher than his battle dictates as per the two combatants.
To ensure that all player characters are viable in the arena of Pvp no player shall have complete immunity to any one type of attack, i.e. magic, physical, etc.
No player characters can use any ability that is abnormal, unnatural, or otherwise supernatural unless specifically stated in the rule books. i.e. Birds cannot throw a bag like a human can.
All dice rolls must be made using the roll20.net system to ensure the integrity of the Players.
In order to keep the peace among players and keep in accordance with the rule books each of Player Characters will have one challenge per match that they can use on their opponent at any time. If the challenger is right then they are issued one more challenge, if the challenger is wrong they lose their challenge and cannot challenge anymore actions by their opponent.


Some of them are too vague. What does commit any other action that impedes the progress of the fight mean? Does time stop count? Teleporting away to heal up? Stunning the opponent? I would need defined rules or feel cheated if a spell of mine was disallowed and I didn't know it if the point was explicitly pitting player builds against each other.

Also, double HP really won't prevent early deaths. A battle at higher levels may easily last just a couple rounds especially if spellcasters are involved where HP can be totally skirted. Even a charging barbarian t high levels can easily deal enough damage to double his own HP if built right.

Moving in the right direction though, and I think it is smart to lay out some ground rules.

[Mindleshank]

Yeah I hear you on the too vague thing. I am attempting to make the rules flexible so they can be used in a variety of situations. In the case of teleporting away yeah that would for sure be banned. Time stop would also prolly be banned and stunning is an attacking actions so therefore it would be allowed.

The other thing is that double Hp may not prevent early death, but it least helps it from happening less often.

Thanks for your thoughts though.

[Kavurcen]

Balanced PvP is pretty hard since the classes aren't balanced against each other. On top of that, any character can vary by a tier or two depending on how it's built. The only way to ensure balance is going to come down to "if I say it's okay". The only specifics I can think of that aren't covered would be super high initiative buffing... and a lot of other stuff that would be more easily said as no ruthless min maxing. In any case it comes down to "wizards are mean".

[whibla]

So guys I am trying to balance out PvP for some guys that cannot commit to a full on campaign. This is what got so far, tell what ya think.

1. Characters of the entire player in Pvp will have double HP to ensure a fair and just fight occurs with an abrupt one-hit knockout occurring too early.

If a fight is fair it's fair. If it's unfair, doubling the character's hitpoints will not make it 'fairer'. However, I can understand the desire to try to avoid the 1-hit kill.


2. All consumables will be henceforth banned to keep the protection of the stability of players’ character’s scores in the Pvp and to avoid the unnecessary “buffing” round.

Unnecessary for who? The plate wearing tank, with no spells, or the unbuffed mage, with a dozen uncast defences? While on that subject, are characters allowed to go into the 'arena' with spells pre-cast? Or are you intending them to be totally unbuffed, but with a full spell selection learnt?


[3] Player shall not use invisibility, burrowing, flying, or any other action that prohibits any offensive actions that could be taken by their opponent that is not explicitly stated in the rule books or commit any other action that impedes the progress of the fight.

What the heck does this mean, 'that is not explicitly stated in the rule books'? Does that mean I can cast a fly spell, or can't I? What about invisibilty? They are in the books. This rule needs a serious rethink / rewrite.


5. To ensure that all player characters are viable in the arena of Pvp no player shall have complete immunity to any one type of attack, i.e. magic, physical, etc.

All classes are not born equal. Some simply are not viable against certain others. Attempting to make it so by introduction of artifical restrictions is ... words fail me.


6. No player characters can use any ability that is abnormal, unnatural, or otherwise supernatural unless specifically stated in the rule books. i.e. Birds cannot throw a bag like a human can.

Birds can drop a bag however (see rules for aerial bombardment in Heroes of Battle). Not that I'm sure the bird is even being allowed to fly, or that, given that there's no consumables allowed, he'll have a bag to drop.


[8] In order to keep the peace among players and keep in accordance with the rule books each of Player Characters will have one challenge per match that they can use on their opponent at any time. If the challenger is right then they are issued one more challenge, if the challenger is wrong they lose their challenge and cannot challenge anymore actions by their opponent.

That at least makes sense...


To comment on some issues raised in previous posts, will you be sanity checking characters before hand, to ensure they are 'legal'? Will you be providing a specific list of banned spells beforehand, such as the aforementioned Time Stop. If Teleporting is banned does the same apply to Dimension Door, or are you just banning leaving the arena? And on that note, how big is the arena? Is it just an open plan space, or will there be something for the poor rogue to hide behind?

Well, not my cup of tea, but I hope you have fun with it, all the same.

[Ravens_cry]

3.5 is NOT PvP balanced. It's, well noit balanced, but at least there is enough ways for pretty much everyone to have fun, depending on optimization levels, in PvE, but PvP I really don't see ending well.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

Remove double hit points.

Add the following:
-a dead character returns at full health in the following round. initiative is rolled again. daily uses and power points are not replenished. previously active buffs are not active anymore. every character has 5 lives. when a character loses all lives, he has lost the encounter.

way to avoid nova effect, and make the fight a bit longer and fairer

[Kavurcen]

Why not give everyone die hard?

[ahenobarbi]

All consumables will be henceforth banned to keep the protection of the stability of players’ character’s scores in the Pvp and to avoid the unnecessary “buffing” round.

No archery then? I think it's better to increase consumables price (DMG suggests 5 times IIRC).


Player shall not use invisibility, burrowing, flying, or any other action that prohibits any offensive actions that could be taken by their opponent that is not explicitly stated in the rule books or commit any other action that impedes the progress of the fight.

This is wrong IMO. Do you want characters just to stand in front of each other and roll till one of them dies or to use some tactics? Because this rule encourages the first style. And if someone finds a way around it they will squash everyone else.



No player can have an ECL higher than his battle dictates as per the two combatants.
?


To ensure that all player characters are viable in the arena of Pvp no player shall have complete immunity to any one type of attack, i.e. magic, physical, etc.

See not using invisibility etc.

[Mindleshank]

As a general note, I should not have used the word "consumable" rather I should have explicitly stated No pots, no oils, no scrolls, no rods, and no wands. I was attempting to umbrella it in hopes oh the rule being flexible. However, this is not a campaign or even a specific pvp they are rules for pvp among us as a group, so questions like "how big is the arena?" are questions that I don't have an answer to.


If a fight is fair it's fair. If it's unfair, doubling the character's hitpoints will not make it 'fairer'. However, I can understand the desire to try to avoid the 1-hit kill.

I understand where you are going with the "fair" thing, thats more or less flavor text anyway.


Unnecessary for who? The plate wearing tank, with no spells, or the unbuffed mage, with a dozen uncast defences? While on that subject, are characters allowed to go into the 'arena' with spells pre-cast? Or are you intending them to be totally unbuffed, but with a full spell selection learnt?

Okay characters arrive in the arena naked (no spells cast), but during the course of the battle can cast any buffing spells they like. The buffing round I was referring to was a round where my friends and I dedicated to buff, since there are no consumables fighters and other martial classes will no need a buffing round.


What the heck does this mean, 'that is not explicitly stated in the rule books'? Does that mean I can cast a fly spell, or can't I? What about invisibilty? They are in the books. This rule needs a serious rethink / rewrite.[QUOTE=whibla;13606956]

There should have been a common with the "any other action" clause there, which would mean that fly is banned invisibility is also banned. The reason behind this is that is simple delays combat when exploited.

[QUOTE=whibla;13606956]All classes are not born equal. Some simply are not viable against certain others. Attempting to make it so by introduction of artifical restrictions is ... words fail me.

Well how else are you gonna balance it. For everyone to have fun doing whatever they want at least I am going to try and make the classes on somewhat equal ground.


Birds can drop a bag however (see rules for aerial bombardment in Heroes of Battle). Not that I'm sure the bird is even being allowed to fly, or that, given that there's no consumables allowed, he'll have a bag to drop.

This was actually just a nod to an argument my friends and I had about if a bird could actually throw a bag from a stationary position to a distant horizontal location while flying.

That at least makes sense...



To comment on some issues raised in previous posts, will you be sanity checking characters before hand, to ensure they are 'legal'? Will you be providing a specific list of banned spells beforehand, such as the aforementioned Time Stop. If Teleporting is banned does the same apply to Dimension Door, or are you just banning leaving the arena? And on that note, how big is the arena? Is it just an open plan space, or will there be something for the poor rogue to hide behind?

Teleporting is not banned, unless it impedes the progression of the fight. There will not be a specific list of spells but one that grow every time one is found to be "broken". I personally will not be checking anybody's character that I am not fighting. That's for the combatant's to decide.

[Mindleshank]

Remove double hit points.

Add the following:
-a dead character returns at full health in the following round. initiative is rolled again. daily uses and power points are not replenished. previously active buffs are not active anymore. every character has 5 lives. when a character loses all lives, he has lost the encounter.

way to avoid nova effect, and make the fight a bit longer and fairer

I like this idea thank you. I may employ it maybe with 2 lives instead of five but really good idea.