Dreadnecro build.

[kiryoku]

I wanted to make a necromancer of some sort. I don't mind using a different class but I want a undead themed one. Not just a necrocleric while more powerful and versatile I want a undead theme to my character not just hints of it. So I wondered if anyone had anything most people don't use simply because of it not being power gaming but still is usable. I don't want anything that is so broken my group is going to need to carry me the whole time either.

[Urpriest]

...I'm confused. What's the issue with using a Dread Necromancer, like you suggest in the thread title? Or are you looking for tips on playing a Dread Necromancer?

[kiryoku]

I am looking for a class that does the undead boosting but maybe dosn't have such a sh**ty disputed capstone feature. owo

[Dr Bwaa]

Dread Necromancer is basically a pretty good eight-level class. After level eight, you'll just need to find something else to multiclass into. The Tome (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19527634/Tome_of_Necromancy) and Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872726/Revised_Necromancer_Handbook) of Necromany will answer most of your questions on this topic rather thoroughly.

[Theoboldi]

What's so bad about getting to transform into a lich?

Anyway,I don't think there are any other necromancy base classes, but there are plenty of PrCs. I'd suggest pale master, which is in libris mortis. They lose one level of casting, but get some nice immunities, touch attacks, and the ability to use animate dead without a matirial cost once per day.

[kiryoku]

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Tome_of_Necromancy_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29


this is a little easier to find stuff on. but ya just seems alike the best stuff is always cut up into like six different classes and you have to multi class which really makes no sense honestly not much of a penalty for doing so. Why couldn't they just make a class that focuses on making powerful undead that isn't totaly broken. owo

[Urpriest]

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Tome_of_Necromancy_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29


this is a little easier to find stuff on. but ya just seems alike the best stuff is always cut up into like six different classes and you have to multi class which really makes no sense honestly not much of a penalty for doing so. Why couldn't they just make a class that focuses on making powerful undead that isn't totaly broken. owo

First: don't use dandwiki. It's got content from inaccurate to broken, and doesn't label its (usually atrocious) homebrew. There are lots of other resources out there, there's no reason to ever use it.

Second: as others have said, using Dread Necromancer while avoiding the capstone with a PrC is not so bad. Few campaigns get to level 20, so it's not like you really have to worry about it anyway.

If you want another class that's good at this sort of thing, Death Master from the Dragon Compendium is another class in this style, more similar to the Wizard.

[kiryoku]

-nods and deletes the DNDwiki page from favorites.- Okay sounds like you know what your talking about. There was a ten level class on there that was nice. Lord of the damned... though they kinda went out of their way to declare it evil when half the book is about making necromancy a grey area. Found it a little odd to be honest.

[Dr Bwaa]

First: don't use dandwiki. It's got content from inaccurate to broken, and doesn't label its (usually atrocious) homebrew. There are lots of other resources out there, there's no reason to ever use it.

True. True Facts. I just wanted to reiterate this so you've got a second opinion on whether dandwiki is usable. It is not, for precisely the reasons above. There is no quality control of any sort over there. As far as I can tell, the only reason for the site's existence is so people can post raw homebrew, then point their DMs to the site and say "look! it's official!" :smallannoyed:

On topic, if you don't like multiclassing you can always just be a cleric or wizard levels 1-20. You'll be fine.

[kiryoku]

Okay understood the website is biased and not grounded in fact or well balanced material. owo

[Madara]

Well, I suggest going with Dread Necromancer on this. The handbooks will be a great help to you in allowing you to both Debuff and Minionmance.

The question is, what levels of play is this at?

[kiryoku]

it starts at level 5 with a +1 template. Star elf variant DM allowed it so I didn't have my ghost touch but don't have that stupid banishment thing. Gave me the weapons the normal elf does. owo also added Draconic onto it to help buff up its weaknesses and add to cha. but its going to go up into a epic level thing with some elder evils and other massive things coming at us.

[Madara]

Hmm. Animate Dead starts at level 8 for the DN, whereas it starts at 5 for clerics.

That said, DN immediately become better at minionmancy. By level 11, you can get about 240ish HD worth of undead from animate dead. In addition, by using spells like Kelegore's Grave Mist, your debuffing is great at all levels.

So if you feel patient, you can wait for Animate Dead in three levels and get a good return on your investment.

I suggest going straight DN, its really not that bad. If you're undead before you reach level 20, then you don't have to deal with the capstone.

[gorfnab]

Another option would be the Nightstalker base class from Dragonlance: Races of Ansalon.

[kiryoku]

Okay so far hes what I have dreadnecro8/lordofthedamned10 starting at dreadnecro5 owo its going to level 30ish or somewhere around there. so not sure what to use after that. I would rather have something that makes undead stronger then gives me more like horned harbinger does. owo Though not many classes do that. Well that I can find. Lots of feats though.

[Madara]

Okay so far hes what I have dreadnecro8/lordofthedamned10 starting at dreadnecro5 owo its going to level 30ish or somewhere around there. so not sure what to use after that. I would rather have something that makes undead stronger then gives me more like horned harbinger does. owo Though not many classes do that. Well that I can find. Lots of feats though.

Take the corpsecrafter line for sure.



Our Dread Necro Handbook
* 8th level - Trap. Big, huge, honkin' trap. The previous guide even commented that this was pretty much the optimal leaving point. I disagree completely.

Undead mastery only applies to Dread Necromancer levels. In other words, you are quartering, or worse, your control HD cap by leaving now. And the ability doesn't stack with Corpsecrafter. So either you're going to blow a feat on absolutely nothing to gain access to the rest of them, or you are trading a steep class investment for something a simple feat can duplicate.

You should leave, if anything, at level 12. If you're the DM though, think about making it work off of caster level.

[kiryoku]

Well my DM is a little less strict then some DMs he reads over stuff and fixes it when he thinks its just poorly worded. So those stack in our game. owo after all I spent 8 levels and a few feats to get that good.

[Piggy Knowles]

If you want a bit of departure from the norm...

Do you have access to Faerun material? The book Faiths and Pantheons has a prestige class called the Horned Harbinger. It's fairly easy to enter, and it is very undead themed. Just to give you an idea of what you get over the course of ten levels...


A crown of bones that you can use as a natural weapon (dealing double damage on a charge)
Rebuke undead
Animate Dead, Create Undead and Create Greater Undead as SLAs (meaning no costly material components), and the ability to use them at range
Various "Master of Undeath" abilities letting you control much larger numbers of undead than normal (10xCL HD as his capstone)


I created a "master of undeath" NPC that was a lot of fun using this. The build was basically Dread Necromancer 2/Barbarian 3/Horned Harbinger 10. Instead of being a pale, sickly necromancer poring over dusty tomes, he was a warrior king of the dead who clad himself in the bones of his fallen enemies, and whenever he would strike down a worthy enemy, he would raise their corpse to add to his army. He was as skilled in combat as he was in commanding the dead, and would always fight at the head of his armies (basically he was a mini-ubercharger, using Shock Trooper, pounce, and the double damage from his horns), backed up with unlimited healing from Tomb-Tainted Soul and Charnel Touch.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Several options for you:

1) If you plan on optimizing Fear, you need at least 4 levels of Dread Witch, and Fell Frighten should be on your feat list. Drop it on Kelgore's Grave Mist for AE fear effects. Make sure to time your levels so that Dread Necro class level 8 is at Caster Level 12, so you can pick up Aura of Terror. (That would be Dread Necro 7/Dread Witch5/Dread Necro +1). Fell Frighten on Aura of Terror, and a way to Persist it (alternate spell source + DMM)

2) If you plan on Minionmancy, the best route is... straight Dread Necro. At level 12, pick up Animate Dread Warrior or Animate Bone Knight as your bonus spell. Now you have pets with class levels. Pick up Corpsecrafter feat line for more obnoxiousness. Kelgore's Grave Mist + Fell Drain + Fell Animate + Destructive Retribution = disposable minions who explode when they die.

3) If you want to do negative level spam, you'll want a bunch of metamagic reducers, possibly Incantatrix (pick a college to ban you don't have any spells in... technically you have access to it, just no spells on your spell list from it). Get some clues from Mailman builds.

[silverwolfer]

8 dread necro 12 grave robber

[ShneekeyTheLost]

8 dread necro 12 grave robber

Third party sources, or dandwiki 'sources' make pun-pun cry. Also, 8 dread necro is a trap, as has already been pointed out in this thread.

[Madara]

The first level of Pale Master really hurts, but if you're starting after that level, go ahead and take it. In the end, you lose all of 1 caster level. Not that bad.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The first level of Pale Master really hurts, but if you're starting after that level, go ahead and take it. In the end, you lose all of 1 caster level. Not that bad.

True, and the free Cohort can be customized to bring a lot of benefit. For example, a Bard with DFI optimization and the Requiem feat can make a lot of low-end minions a heck of a lot more dangerous.

[eggs]

Third party sources, or dandwiki 'sources' make pun-pun cry.
Anything but brand loyalty to the people who brought us the Divine Mind and Half-Illithid will be punished with scorn!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Anything but brand loyalty to the people who brought us the Divine Mind and Half-Illithid will be punished with scorn!

Right... and by comparison, the people who brought us the Divine Mind and Half-Illithid are playtested and balanced. I leave it to you what this says for 3rd party content.

It's not brand loyalty so much as an even bigger lack of quality control.

[eggs]

Right... and by comparison, the people who brought us the Divine Mind and Half-Illithid are playtested and balanced. I leave it to you what this says for 3rd party content.
"Third party" encompasses dozens of publishers with varying qualities of work. Some suck, some don't. DMs have to make the call on what's balanced regardless of whether materials are the first-party Planar Shepherd, Samurai or Quori Shards or the third-party Foehunter, Vitalist or Cerebral Rager. In many cases, it's the WotC material that calls for stricter limitations.

You want to give WotC your money? That's cool.
But jumping between threads pretending like people who don't are committing some sort of gaming-sin? That's laughable.

[Madara]

You want to give WotC your money? That's cool.
But jumping between threads pretending like people who don't are committing some sort of gaming-sin? That's laughable.

D&D wiki is not the same as a third party publisher. Plus he's referencing the fact that we try to use official sources to help people in builds since they're more likely to be accepted than homebrew. In addition, there are more resources(such as handbooks and the tier compendium) to learn about these classes.

He wasn't blaming anyone for using those sources, but rather attempted to say that we should stick with official material.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

D&D wiki is not the same as a third party publisher. Plus he's referencing the fact that we try to use official sources to help people in builds since they're more likely to be accepted than homebrew. In addition, there are more resources(such as handbooks and the tier compendium) to learn about these classes.

He wasn't blaming anyone for using those sources, but rather attempted to say that we should stick with official material.

Precisely.

Besides, WotC has finished publishing 3.5 material, so it's not like they'll be getting any MORE money out of me. That will be reserved for when Legend starts actually selling content rather than unselfishly giving it away

[Doxkid]

I wanted to make a necromancer of some sort. I don't mind using a different class but I want a undead themed one. Not just a necrocleric while more powerful and versatile I want a undead theme to my character not just hints of it. So I wondered if anyone had anything most people don't use simply because of it not being power gaming but still is usable. I don't want anything that is so broken my group is going to need to carry me the whole time either.

1-Are you going to do that silly "1000 1 hit die skeleton" thing? Keeping more than one or two pets at a time can really screw over combat for your party-mates.

2-At around level...10 or 13 or so Necromancy takes a huge hit to the gut from Deathward; Deathward is no longer under the "BIG GUNS" category of spells for Clerics and even Druids have it by now.

By then you should have a plan for dealing with Undead you don't want/don't expect to be able to control, Constructs and beings with Deathward on them. Usually, that would be a favorite Undead Pet or a prestige class.

3-Pale Master following Dread Necromancer levels is about as necromancy based as you can get. If you want to branch out a bit, look at Tainted Scholar, Dread Witch, Fiendblooded, Sand Shaper. If you're a tricky kind of person, you can finesse your way into Walker of the Waste, but...

Anyway, if you arent any of those four you are probably at a crossroads in your build path:
-
Dread necromancer levels advance your rebuking, something almost no prestige class will do for you. With rebuking, you can take control of awesome undead you can't normally make...and control them forever.

Also, Dread necromancer levels give you a small pile of neat perks (some of them are pretty cool/useful, some not)
---
Pale master does NOT advance rebuking. It does, on the other hand, give you the ability to make disposable undead at the cost of one caster level and one useless feat. Remember that these are low tier disposable minions; no matter how cool the zombie or skeleton you make is, it would probably be even better off as a Corpse creature, or mummy, or Bone creature.

You can't cast Create Undead for free as a pale Master, so you still have to pay to make Elite undead. At least it gives you a cohort and some touch based abilities later on...
---
Fleshwarper, which hardly anyone talks about, allows you to make and then attach grafts (semi-magical objects that add or replace body parts) to things you like (so yourself, party members and undead pets you plan to keep around).

This combined with Dread Necromancer is the bee's knees for making elite undead; the type that you keep around for 5 different dungeons and against 7 different bosses. The type townsfolk and your king/master recognize calmly.

"Oh god, its a hideous undead monste...oh...wait a second. It's just Carl. You know, mister necromancer's undead Dragon/tank/artillery piece, thing? Hi Carl!"
---
-
Your spell selection with Advance Learning can change your character just as much as your prestige class selection does.
-
Did you know it's possible to play a Dread necromancer as a straight up party healer? Not using negative energy at all, mind you; I'm not talking about taking advantage of Tomb tainted or being undead. I mean, with spells and abilities you can heal normal people on the fly.

Not many do know that. It's a weird and slightly difficult route, but it's something you can do all the same.
---
Melee is practically built into Necromancers (and especially Dread Necromncer). With the right spells you can enhance yourself, undead allies, or weapons and wade through enemies with confidence.
-

As of now, you seem to want to be a necromancer who focuses on minions; nothing wrong with that, though I beg you to look into snagging up to 3 elite pets instead of a thousand weak ones (and yes, getting a thousand weak ones IS possible. There isn't much of a point to it, but it's possible).

From that, I would suggest a build that I've been tweaking for a while:
Dread necromancer/sand Shaper/Flesh Warper.

Give Sand Shaper and Flesh Warper a look; the first is in Sandstorm and the second is in Lords of Madness.

Nothing says "I'm the big dog necromancer" like riding into a fight on the back of a winged Purple Worm Corpse creature, only to have a reanimated Troll rip its way out and tear through your enemies, clearing a path. Those that sneak past the troll? Worm chow. Those that dodge the worm? Literal mummified corpses, which can be stored conveniently (light weight, with no rotting smell) until you choose to make them actual Mummies, or perhaps something else.

[kiryoku]

OwO wow that is alot of stuff. well I will go through it and see what works with what iam doing. also I agree with you I would rather have two good Undead then a thousand crap ones. >.< So no giveing classes that just make more I want power to add to them. owo


what book is fleshwarper in. owo

[Madara]

OwO wow that is alot of stuff. well I will go through it and see what works with what iam doing. also I agree with you I would rather have two good Undead then a thousand crap ones. >.< So no giveing classes that just make more I want power to add to them. owo

I suggest having both. You can have an undead army in the background, keeping them hidden until they surve as a plot point, Then bring them out to help you invade the city or something. As long as they don't take up turns in combat, there's nothing wrong with having the fun of a giant army.

That said, get Genie Skeletons ASAP as you personal guard. They are the best you can get.

[Duke of URL]

I agree with you I would rather have two good Undead then a thousand crap ones

Which is why the advice about not PrCing out of Dread Necromancer at 8th level really isn't relevant to most folks. A bonus of 8 x CHA on top of 4 x character level ensures plenty of HD cap to control a small number of heavy-duty minions.

It's only the true "army of undead" concepts that need to squeeze out every HD of control that they can manage. Besides, there's always control undead and Undead Leadership if you need more.

[Urpriest]

Which is why the advice about not PrCing out of Dread Necromancer at 8th level really isn't relevant to most folks. A bonus of 8 x CHA on top of 4 x character level ensures plenty of HD cap to control a small number of heavy-duty minions.

It's only the true "army of undead" concepts that need to squeeze out every HD of control that they can manage. Besides, there's always control undead and Undead Leadership if you need more.

RAW, Dread Necro 8 takes away the normal CL scaling. You will never get more than that 8x(Cha+4).

Which is amazingly silly, and no DM should rule it that way. But there it is.

[Madara]

Which is why the advice about not PrCing out of Dread Necromancer at 8th level really isn't relevant to most folks. A bonus of 8 x CHA on top of 4 x character level class level ensures plenty of HD cap to control a small number of heavy-duty minions.

It's only the true "army of undead" concepts that need to squeeze out every HD of control that they can manage. Besides, there's always control undead and Undead Leadership if you need more.

Fixed that for ya. :smallwink:

[Doxkid]

Stuff about Undead Mastery.

What's funny is that doesn't actually matter most of the time. Unless you are actually in a War/ are a leader/(something like that) you probably won't cap out your Animate Dead/Create Undead pool either way.

A level 8 Wizard who has 32 hit die worth of undead which he probably devoted to getting one or two Dragons (these actually ARE good as zombies and skeletons), Giants or Outsiders. If you're in situations where having two Fire Giant skeletons can't help you, having 3 more probably wouldn't change things.
---
What DOES matter from Dread Necromancer is rebuking, enervating touch and built in DR advancement.

Why do you want rebuking on a minion master? Vampires, Liches and Mummies tend to have good will saves, when you try to pick up nice ones. Command Undead, or Control Undead probably won't cut it and (once again) if they're good ones they are actually a threat if they ever break free of your control.

If you want that full package, at least pick up 12 levels. Rebuking with a base level of 8 promoted to...lets say 15 with items and a strong build wont get you pets nearly as nice as 12 promoted to 19. Since focusing THAT much on it is rare, having a large amount of natural rebuking levels really helps.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

It's pretty easy to cap out your HD when you start raising 16 HD Dread Warriors statted out as Uberchargers... or you start raising 48 HD Tarrasques...

Not wanting to do the 'thousand skeleton brigade' is a good idea. However, having a dozen 'praetor guard' minions is not a bad idea. But you're gonna need a huge control pile to pull it off, because each one, individually, is a lot of HD.

And for every Death Ward, there's an equal and opposite Greater Dispel Magic.

Dread Witch + Fear of Aura + Fell Frighten + DMM: Persist (using either Southern Magician or Alternate Spell Source to make the spells count as divine) = a lot of fear effects that opponents aren't immune to. This is lockdown central. Then, at level 16, if you're still doing Dread Necro, pick up Animate Dread Warrior.

It's not a matter of doing any one thing, it's having three seperate guns in your barrel, they're gonna get hit hard by at least one of them.

[Doxkid]

It's pretty easy to cap out your HD when you start raising 16 HD Dread Warriors statted out as Uberchargers... or you start raising 48 HD Tarrasques...

Actually, no it isn’t. If you are raising 16 hit die Ubercharger Dread Warriors…then you don’t have to use your Animate Dead control pool at all. That’s why people like that spell.

If you’re raising a 48 Hit Die Tarrasque as a Corpse creature (or bone creature, or ghoulish, or Mummified, or…), then you’re got a few problems there. For one, you’re raising a Tarrasque instead of something useful or cool. You aren't animating it EVER with Animate Dead, so worrying about that control pool there is pointless. Rebuking will be extremely hard to get high enough for that, so don't worry about that either.

Two Balor or two Pitfiend, or two adult+ Dragons are easier to come by, have similar resilience (similar spell resistance differing by less that 5, similar will saves, some DR) though the Tarrasque has GREAT regeneration and DR/Epic. The only real positive point for the Tarrasque is that it will get back up unless you make an enemy cast Wish and it is a good Grappler straight out of the book.

The Balor has a decent attack routine based on Two Weapon Fighting, while the Pit Fiend has an ok natural attack routine. The Dragon is similar to the Pit Fiend and ALL of them have both spell casting to some extent and innate flight.
--
Anyway, at a bare minimum you’ll have 64 hit die in your Animate Dead pool to work with, assuming 18 cha and 8 levels of Dread necromancer. Mind that the Animate Dead pool doesn’t stretch to your Rebuking Pool, your Control/Command undead pool or your Undead Leadership pool. The only useful things Animate dead gets you is Zombie and Skeletons which you’d have you awaken to get them on the same level as your other control pools.

Your Control Undead pool actually gets a boost from Undead Mastery without any penalty; it says “targets up to (2 + her Cha bonus) HD/level of undead creatures, rather than the 2 HD/level normally granted by the spell.” But does not mention class level, so you continue advancing it with your caster levels, as far as I know.

I’ll give you a win on Dispelling, but you just gave that enemy another round and another chance to eliminate you, or at least destroy a useful undead pet of yours.
-edit-
Oh, also, Advance learning *should* continue accruing if you take a +caster level PrC because it is part of your spells known.

If you are like me and prefer to not munchkin excessively, then take 11 levels of DN, multiple levels of a PrC, then 1 more level of DN to get the next Advance Learning and pick up a higher level spell than normal.

It's nice to be able to clone powerful beings (your party included); its an easy way to get your elite squadron set up.
--second edit---
Oh, I almost forgot. Awaken Undead gives you those awakened Skeletons and Zombies as permanent servants. As per the spell they "obey your commands" and it makes no mention of any other ability, feat, technique, etc.

And, since they DO get feats/skills (all intelligent creatures get them) but specifically do not automatically get the skills/feats they originally hard, you get to customize them with the Skills and Feats you want them to have.

So...if you're making the GOOD undead, your Animate Dead pool will not be relevant for long.