How to make a good rogues that uses variations of whips

[Isearchfortraps]

I am currently trying to make a rogue that uses whips like the dagger tips whip and what not that deal lethal dmg. I was wondering if anyone could help me with feat selection we can use most sorce books other then psionics. Forgot to mention were using D&D 3.5 rules.

[Urpriest]

Whips went through a big change from 3.0 to 3.5, and none of the whips that deal lethal damage were updated. You pretty much need houserules in order to make this sort of character work. Have you talked to your DM about how he's applying the 3.5 update to the whip-dagger (or things of that sort)?

[Psyren]

Psychic Rogue with Hidden Talent: Psychic Whip? It deals lethal damage, you can sneak attack with it, and you can do all the normal whip tricks (trip without being tripped in return, disarm without being disarmed in return etc.) Starting at ML 3, you can even manifest it as a swift action, allowing you to form it and attack/full-attack in the same round.

[Urpriest]

Psychic Rogue with Hidden Talent: Psychic Whip? It deals lethal damage, you can sneak attack with it, and you can do all the normal whip tricks (trip without being tripped in return, disarm without being disarmed in return etc.) Starting at ML 3, you can even manifest it as a swift action, allowing you to form it and attack/full-attack in the same round.

Where is that power from? Sounds yummy.

[Psyren]

Where is that power from? Sounds yummy.

Secrets of Sarlona. It's a 1st-level power for Psywars, making it eligible for Hidden Talent :smallsmile:

[Feralventas]

Ask your DM to allow you to take a feat to treat Concentration as a class skill, or perhaps take a flaw to cover a balancing cost. 5 levels of Rogue with a little bit of Craft (Alchemy) before taking the first level dip into Pyrokineticist for the Fire Lash ability. Take a look at the Mind's Eye articles on WOTC's archives for alternative energy types (sonic, acid, cold, and electric) if you'd rather go for those. There's also a whip-based PrC in one of the old 3.0 splat books; Sword and Fist I think.

You could also simply enchant the weapon with a force-effect so that you're dealing Force damage instead of non-lethal.

[Togath]

Whips went through a big change from 3.0 to 3.5, and none of the whips that deal lethal damage were updated. You pretty much need houserules in order to make this sort of character work. Have you talked to your DM about how he's applying the 3.5 update to the whip-dagger (or things of that sort)?

if the op means the whips from arms & equipment guid, then they are probably fine, as many dms allow the fullblade, and the whips already have a note which states that they are treated a lot like the varient weapons in complete warrior and complete adventurer if i remember correctly

[phlidwsn]

There's also the Tentacle Whip symbiont from Eberron Campaign Setting. 1d4 plus poison. On the downside, its evil and has an ego score. Magic of Eberron gives it a cash equivalent value of 8000gp on pg 154

From MIC, we have the following lethal whips:
Lash of Sands, pg 53, 22k
Water Whip, pg 63, 20k
There's also Rod of Whips, Assassin Whip & Whip of Webs, but they have the usual nonlethal, no armor restrictions.

So you could probably make a Rogue that uses one of the above, but you'd need to start high enough level to have the cash

[Urpriest]

if the op means the whips from arms & equipment guid, then they are probably fine, as many dms allow the fullblade, and the whips already have a note which states that they are treated a lot like the varient weapons in complete warrior and complete adventurer if i remember correctly

The fullblade already has major problems due to the change in sizing rules. The whip is somewhat more severe, and neither Complete Warrior nor Complete Adventurer have anything like a whip-dagger update.

To go into more detail:
The old whip was a ranged weapon that only went up to 15ft, dealt subdual damage, and couldn't affect anything with more than a +1 armor or +3 natural armor bonus.

The whip-dagger took these same traits, increased the damage and got rid of the armor limitations.

The current whip is a melee weapon. It deals nonlethal damage, with the same armor restrictions, and additionally no ability to threaten attacks of opportunity. It also provokes, just like using a ranged weapon.

The simplest change would be to simply make the whip-dagger deal its old damage and have no armor limitations, but function otherwise as the current whip. Of course, it might get rid of other of the new limitations as well. This is why you need to figure out how your DM is choosing to update the weapon before proceeding.

Once that's figured out, you're a character with a reach weapon that's not technically a reach weapon. I think there are some shenanigans you can go through to flank with yourself, but other than that I can't think of any obvious uses, since it will be tricky to flank at a distance, especially since you don't threaten.

[kitcik]

EWP: Kusari Gama

[Togath]

EWP: Kusari Gama

A kusari-gama is very different from a whip, as it's a chain with an iron ball on one end, connected to a kama

[Isearchfortraps]

thank you very much everyone this info will help me out alot.:smallsmile:

[kitcik]

A kusari-gama is very different from a whip, as it's a chain with an iron ball on one end, connected to a kama

A whip dagger (see OP) has a handle at one end, a length of iron barbed leather and a dagger at the other end.

A kusari gama has a kama at one end (acts as the handle), a chain (instead of iron barbed leather) and a weight (instead of a dagger, which really isnt essential to a whip-wielder anyhow).

It's different. Very different? Not to me. Just refluff a bit and the kusari gama makes for a rocking "whip" sneak attack.

[The Underlord]

I remember seeing an Iron Chef entry that used a symbiote whip from one of the Eberron books. The whip it elf was pretty good IIRC.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Ask your DM to allow you to take a feat to treat Concentration as a class skill, or perhaps take a flaw to cover a balancing cost. 5 levels of Rogue with a little bit of Craft (Alchemy) before taking the first level dip into Pyrokineticist for the Fire Lash ability. Take a look at the Mind's Eye articles on WOTC's archives for alternative energy types (sonic, acid, cold, and electric) if you'd rather go for those. There's also a whip-based PrC in one of the old 3.0 splat books; Sword and Fist I think.



I strongly recommend the Sonokineticist if it's available.

The whip-based PrC you're thinking of is the Lasher. Never updated, but essential to any whip-based build, imo. 10 levels, partial sneak attack progression, full BAB, some anti-getting-attacks-of-opportunity-made-against-you stuff, improved Trip and lots of Indiana Jones-y flavor goodness. Oh, also the option to deal regular damage to anything, rather than being restricted by the other guy's natural or regular armor bonus.

[Urpriest]

I strongly recommend the Sonokineticist if it's available.

The whip-based PrC you're thinking of is the Lasher. Never updated, but essential to any whip-based build, imo. 10 levels, partial sneak attack progression, full BAB, some anti-getting-attacks-of-opportunity-made-against-you stuff, improved Trip and lots of Indiana Jones-y flavor goodness. Oh, also the option to deal regular damage to anything, rather than being restricted by the other guy's natural or regular armor bonus.

It's one of the PrCs that was explicitly updated as the Exotic Weapon Master.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I haven't ever seen any source that makes that claim. I've never even seen any suggestion that that's the case. Unless you can give me a page number or a link, I'm pretty confident that the Lasher is un-updated 3.0 material and available for use.

[Urpriest]

I haven't ever seen any source that makes that claim. I've never even seen any suggestion that that's the case. Unless you can give me a page number or a link, I'm pretty confident that the Lasher is un-updated 3.0 material and available for use.

Interesting. You're right, I had gotten it mixed up with Master of Chains, which indeed is explicitly updated to EWM (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050110x).

Regardless, anything whip-related from 3.0 will need work from the DM to update.

[Roguenewb]

Without the Whip-Dagger, there's really no point. The whip-dagger is pretty sweet. If you do it right, with Whip Dagger, Factotum and Whip Climber, you can play as Indiana Jones.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

That's certainly true. Whips changed enough that they require a decent amount of updating. The Fire Lash ability of the Pyrokineticist, if it's ruled to work with Lasher and there's no reason it shouldn't be, might sidestep some of that, but not all.

[Psyren]

I wouldn't get so enthusiastic over the X-Kineticist. The whip is a PLA, so you have to beat not just a monster's touch AC and energy resistance, but their SR as well. There's also no inkling of its ML, which if your DM is nice will mean that it's equal to your hit dice, but if he's not nice means it will be equal to your Sono level; either way though, SR will still be a PITA.

[cagemarrow]

Isn't there a sand whip and/or water in the MIC that you could use to base it on? Just take away the magical enhancement bonus and it should leave you with the standard whip stats.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I wouldn't get so enthusiastic over the X-Kineticist. The whip is a PLA, so you have to beat not just a monster's touch AC and energy resistance, but their SR as well. There's also no inkling of its ML, which if your DM is nice will mean that it's equal to your hit dice, but if he's not nice means it will be equal to your Sono level; either way though, SR will still be a PITA.

There's no reason your X Lash should be your only means of attack, and reshaping dungeons however you want by ignoring hardness and Power Attacking walls away is an extremely useful ability.

[Psyren]

It's highly debatable if you can use Power Attack with a Sonokineticist whip. Though standard whip feats apply to it, it's actually a ranged attack (unlike regular whips) which means PA won't actually do anything.

So while you will do full damage to the DM's carefully-crafted dungeon, it will still take an ungodly long time to smash your way anywhere. You may be better off dipping Warlock for Baleful Utterance.

[Than]

It sounds to me like a +1 Whip of Force is the most elegant (if not the most damaging) solution to me. Even if their armor stops your whip the force damage should still push though, right?

Without pulling up my MIC I believe that would be the cost of a +2 weapon deal 1d3 subdual and 1d4 force?

[roguemetal]

I just attempted a whip build with my last character, sadly it doesn't seem to be worth it in the long run. I find that the lack of AoO is majorly hampering to most of what you'll want to do without taking two-weapon fighting.
My suggestion? Taking the -2 one handed penalty for using an undersized spiked chain basically gives all the benefits of the whip plus the ability to disarm or trip when they enter your threat.

[Kaeso]

I am currently trying to make a rogue that uses whips like the dagger tips whip and what not that deal lethal dmg. I was wondering if anyone could help me with feat selection we can use most sorce books other then psionics. Forgot to mention were using D&D 3.5 rules.

Personally, while whipdaggers are an option, I'd simply recommend you to take a spiked chain (costs a feat) and to roleplay it as a whip. It's far superior to the whip, making it (debatably) the only exotic weapon worth the feat. As for your other feats, you can just take a few standard rogue feats and go to town.

[kitcik]

Personally, while whipdaggers are an option, I'd simply recommend you to take a spiked chain (costs a feat) and to roleplay it as a whip. It's far superior to the whip, making it (debatably) the only exotic weapon worth the feat. As for your other feats, you can just take a few standard rogue feats and go to town.

That's why I said Kusari Gama like a dozen posts back.

It's similar to spiked chain, but is a light weapon, making it more whip-like.

[Curmudgeon]

Ask your DM to allow you to take a feat to treat Concentration as a class skill, or perhaps ...
Why do you need to ask your DM? Martial Study (Diamond Mind) does that, and you'll get a maneuver out of the deal as well.