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SSGoW
2012-07-24, 01:15 PM
The Fighter

"Damn it! I'm not a fighter, I'm The Fighter!

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
1|
2|
0|
0|Veteran I, Fighter's Health I, FBF

2nd|
2|
3|
0|
0|Powerful Build I, FBF

3rd|
3|
3|
1|
1|Adrenaline I

4th|
4|
4|
1|
1|Unyielding Assault I, FBF

5th|
5|
4|
1|
1|Veteran II, Combat Zone (+5ft), FBF

6th|
6/1|
5|
2|
2| Experienced

7th|
7/2|
5|
2|
2|Powerful Build II, FBF

8th|
8/3|
6|
2|
2|FBF

9th|
9/4|
6|
3|
3|Unyielding Assault II,

10th|
10/5|
7|
3|
3|Veteran III, Combat Zone (+10ft), Fighter's Health II, FBF

11th|
11/6/1|
7|
3|
3|FBF

12th|
12/7/2|
8|
4|
4|Powerful Build III, Adrenaline II,

13th|
13/8/3|
8|
4|
4|FBF

14th|
14/9/4|
9|
4|
4|FBF

15th|
15/10/5|
9|
5|
5|Unyielding Assault III, Combat Zone (+15ft),

16th|
16/11/6/1|
10|
5|
5|FBF

17th|
17/12/7/2|
10|
5|
5|Powerful Build IV, FBF

18th|
18/13/8/3|
11|
6|
6|Combat Superiority

19th|
19/14/9/4|
11|
6|
6|FBF

20th|
20/15/10/5|
12|
6|
6|Champion of Combat,Combat Zone (+20ft), FBF [/table]


Hit Die:d10
Good Saves:Fortitude
Class Skills:Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Wis), Spot (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Points at First Level:(4 + Int Mod) X 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level:4 + Int Mod

Starting Gold:As Fighter. However the Fighter gains for free one martial weapon, one ranged weapon, and one suit of armor. These were received as gifts/for free from wherever the Fighter learned his/her abilities.

Fighter Bonus Feats:

Fighter Bonus Feats are any feat that the fighter meets the prerequisites for.

For the purposes of Fighter Bonus Feats, the Fighter only needs a score of 10 to qualify for the prerequisites.

A Fighter may spend an hour to retrain any FBF. The Fighter may retrain any number of FBF at the rate of 1/hour.

Once a fighter has a feat for 2 levels (the level the fighter gained it and all through the next level) the Fighter may then retrain any of its feat prerequisites. A fighter who has a feat that has dodge and combat expertise as prerequisites keeps the feat for 2 levels, the fighter on the third level of having the feat may now spend an hour for dodge and an hour for combat expertise to retrain them to other feats that will be more useful/feats that the fighter will use.

Any class feature that the fighter obtains may be replaced by a Fighter Bonus Feat. If the class ability (such as Powerful Build) is on multiple levels then the Fighter gains a Fighter bonus feat at those levels.

A 2nd level fighter may ignore alignment prerequisites for the Fighter Bonus Feats among the chaos/law or good/evil axis. A 12th level Fighter may ignore alignment prerequisites for Fighter Bonus Feats on both the law/chaos and good/evil axis.

At 12th level all ECL Feats are now considered Fighter Bonus Feats. Only ECL Feats gained when a level of Fighter was taken are considered Fighter Bonus Feats.

Veteran (I,II,III):Due to years of fighting and practice the Fighter has learned to use his wisdom to compensate for his other less used attributes. At first level choose one of the following to replace with the Fighter's wisdom.

Dex: Replace your dex modifier with your wisdom modifier when using combat reflexes, when determining your Initiative, and the Fighter's Dex bonus to AC.

Dex: Replace your dex modifier with your wisdom modifier when using a ranged attack and dex based skills. You may also apply your wis mod when calculating ranged damage.

Int: Replace your Int modifier with your wisdom modifier when determining skill points and Int based skills.

Cha: Replace your Cha modifier with your wisdom modifier when determining cha based skills and any feat that is fueled by charisma.


Powerful Build (I – IV):
The physical stature of Fighters lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger. Whenever a Fighter is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the Fighter is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A Fighter is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A Fighter can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with itself, the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.

The size of a Fighter’s weapons doesn’t change but the damage size is always equal to his effective size category. A medium sized creature who becomes a fighter and gains Powerful Build I, II, and III is now considered “Gargantuan” if it is advantageous to him. Medium => Large (1) => Huge (2) => Gargantuan (3).

Adrenaline (I - II):

"They say some warriors can reach a breaking point, where their rage flows over and turns them into a death machine. However us Fighters always need their wits about them and boy don't ever let me see you loose your temper, doing so may make you loose your head! Let the sounds of battle, the smell of blood, and the sight of death fuel you to become stronger and faster so that you may push yourself past mortal limits to become the greatest death machine this or any other realm has ever seen!"

-Greinke Hammerheart Dwarven Fighter

For a number of rounds a day equal to (1/2 Fighter level + Fighter's con mod) a Fighter may go into a state boosted by Adrenaline. The Fighter may ignore penalty to speed due to armor (Dwarfs gain +10 bonus to speed), gains freedom of movement, and a bonus on attack rolls (con mod). Once used this ability can't be used until the Fighter is no longer slowed (see below).

Slowed: When the effects of a Fighter's Adrenaline have ended the Fighter's normal speed is halved for a number of rounds equal to the number of rounds the fighter spent in a state of Adrenaline. At level 12 the Fighter no longer becomes slowed after the effects of Adrenaline has worn off.

This is a free action to activate usually part of another action.

Experienced:
A fighter gains as bonus experience points equal to (Fighter Level X 5%) anytime the Fighter gains XP from combat. A 6th level fighter gains 30% more experience from combat than the Fighter's allies.

Unyielding Assault (I-III): A fighter's mind may fail him, a fighter's reflexes may fail him, but a Fighter's body is always there to pick up the slack.
Unyielding Assault I: Slippery Mind
Unyielding Assault II: Mettle
Unyielding Assault III: Iron Heart Surge (con mod times/day)

Combat Zone: This feat as a class feature http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/combat-patrol-combat. Although not exactly like the feat but it is a good start.

Increase threatened area by 5ft for every 5 Fighter levels.

You may make AoO v.s. any opponent in this area that you can shift to.

While using this ability to make AoO you may shift up to your speed to get to your target but you can't shift more than your speed using this ability in one round. This movement doesn't interfere with the Fighter's movement on the Fighter's turn.


Fighter's Health (I-II):

1st Level: Anytime the Fighter is healed by magical means he receives the maximum amount plus his Fighter level (A 5th level fighter who gets cured for 1d8 + 4 = 12 + 5= 17 hp healed).
1st Level: Once per encounter as an Immediate action, a Fighter may use a second wind. This heals the fighter 1/4 of his hit points plus a number of hit points equal to his ECL. A

10th Level: At each level the Fighter "takes 10" on his Hit Die roll.

Champion of Combat:

As a free action anytime a creature that is in the threatened area of the fighter attacks another creature (except the Fighter), the Fighter may take a full attack against the creature who attacked. This is considered an AoO.

Any creature hit by the Fighter must make a DC = (Fighter Level + Con mod) Fort Save. If failed the enemy's Str score becomes 0 for 1d4 + 1 rounds. This save is without the aide of magic or magic items. This attack applies to any attack from the fighter in which the fighter deals damage.

The Fighter ignores all magical miss chance from spells such as blink, blur, and the like.

Alternate Cap Ability: Zantetsuken

Zantetsuken:

As a full round action a Fighter may make a triple move and one attack. This movement may be used before and after the attack however the Fighter chooses. This movement is a straight line that doesn't provoke AoO. The attack is at the Fighter's highest BAB.

Any enemy hit by this attack that has less than 100 Hp dies. This is not a death effect but the Fighter is literally slicing the target into separate pieces, thus targets immune to death effects are still effected by the Zantetsuken.

Any Enemy that is missed by the Zantetsuken (from a missed attack roll or had to much HP) instead takes HP damage equal to 1/4 their max HP.

A Fighter may perform a Zantetsuken Con Mod times per day. But only once every 1d4 rounds.

Glimbur
2012-07-24, 02:34 PM
Bonus Fighter Feats:The Fighter may ignore any and all stat requirements for feats she gains through this class feature. Also any feat is now a fighter bonus feat. Multiple levels (1,2, and anytime you normally don't gain a feat). This has unintended consequences. Mage Slayer, for example, is a feat that some fighters want but it's not a [fighter] feat. If I'm reading this correctly, it means you can only take [fighter] feats which is poor design.


Each day a Fighter may retrain (Fighter level number) of Fighter Bonus Feats by spending an hour per feat. Pretty useful, but not game breaking. I'd put it low to mid levels... 6ish or so.


Powerful Build: As the racial trait, this doesn't change your actual size but does change your weight. This comes as type I, II, III, IV, V. This stacks with the racial trait and with itself. (I do need a good fluff on why a Fighter can use a collosal weapon... Perhaps the size doesn't
Change but the mass does? Level 1, 6, 12, 15, 18?
Bonus damage is pretty much all this is, except it makes it harder to keep one weapon. I might instead just add flat damage to weapon attacks; it has the same effect, is less abusable (Greater Mighty Wallop from races of the dragon gets messy), and it lets you use the same sword from level 1 to 20 provided you keep enchanting it further. As you already said, this could be a scaling feature that you get more of as you level. You'll have to consider how it interacts with Power Attack and its helper feats.


Yell: For a number of rounds equal to the Fighter's con mod a Fighter gains a bonus to will saves (con mod), speed (+10 ft), freedom of movement, pounce, and a bonus on att and dmg rolls (con mod). Once used this ability can't be used for 5 rounds. Level 3? Freedom of Movement at level 3 essentially at will seems too good. Change that to a bonus to resist grapple checks equal to twice con mod and you're probably ok. What action is this to use? If it's a swift, expect this effect to be on nearly all the time unless there are a lot of other swift actions added as well.


Hero's Calling: Anytime the Fighter is under an enchantment type effect (grasping hand or even confusion/mind rape type spells) and an ally is in danger (directly attacked) the fighter as a free action gains another saving throw with a +10 bonus + Con Mod. At a higher level the fighter automatically will succeed on the second saving throw. (Perhaps at 20th level he can even escape an imprisonment spell because he can "feel" his friends in danger? Haha). Level 3 Slippery Mind is a well-defined ability that already exists. If you give that to the fighter, but refluff it, that should work. What you have proposed is stronger; immunity to Enchantment can happen at ~15th level but it's not free. The +10 is what makes me wary here; get a workable definition of what effects this ability helps against and remove the +10 and level 3ish would be fine.


No Passing Zone: Any enemy within 5ft/3 Fighter levels provoke attack of opportunity whenever they perform an action that provokes. The Fighter as a free action may move (shift) 5ft/3fighter levels. This can be used a number of times equal to number of AoO + Wis mod times/ day (? Or /enc). *Special* If a Fighter takes Combat Reflexes he may use wis instead of dex for number of AoO she may perform. Level 9? Your first sentence is a tautology, so I suspect you have not communicated what you wanted to. I think what you want is "If an opponent performs an action that would provoke an attack of opportunity within five feet of the fighter per three fighter levels the fighter has, the fighter may move (as a free action) up to five feet per three fighter levels the fighter possesses. This ability may be used a number of times per day equal to the number of Attacks of Opportunity the fighter can take in a round plus his wisdom modifier (if positive)." You might also want to make the movement an immediate action, rather than a free action, but the per-day limit on the ability makes novas of it less attractive. Make the stat substitution for AoO's a separate ability at level 1.



Level 20 Cap!
Bad Idea Bub: As a free action anytime a creature within reach of the fighter attacks another creature, the Fighter may take a full attack against the creature who attacked (usually an enemy).

Any creature within reach of the Fighter may not take any action that provokes an AoO. When a creature does this it not only fails but the fighter may take her AoO on the enemy. People who argue for every advantage they can get might say that when the creature attacks the fighter, the creature is attacking another creature and so the fighter should get two full attacks a round in a one-on-one fight. This might not be what you intended.
The ability to prevent actions wholesale is very strong. This means a 20th level fighter, for example, can stand in a canyon and stop a mob of peasants from running past him. That's probably acceptable at 20th level. Looking at the list of actions that provoke, most of them should not be done anywhere near opponents at 20th level but it still feels too powerful.



One last thing I want to add into Fighter Bonus Feats is that if you gain a feat such as "Improved Trip" you may get rid of Combat Expertise if you have Imp Trip for 1 or 2 levels before getting rid of the feat prerequisite? Mostly because the ppl who use some feat trees never use the base feats.... Personally, I would fix this by making the base feats worth taking, or eliminating them entirely.


After I get the fighter the way I like it I will work on the Ranger, Barbarian, and Rogue (perhaps giving the rogue an oposite ability of powerful build :p ).

Any suggestions?

Ranger and Barbarian are a lot like fighters that have class features. You could combine all three by making Ranger and Barbarian alternate class options for fighter. Balance might be tricky.

SSGoW
2012-07-24, 09:28 PM
Ok so I had a good response and everything but my phone crashed. I will add my response again tomorrow.

But thank you. I see where I didn't explain things all the way.

Thanks!

...To be continued

Oh yeah the way I see the Martial classes... Fighter is military trained, rogue is a urban streetwise fighter, ranger is a woodsman fighter, and a barbarian is a primative fighter. I would love to make a class that could represent this...

SSGoW
2012-07-27, 09:28 AM
My change to the Fighter Bonus Feats (FBF).


Fighter Bonus Feats are any feat that the fighter meets the prereq's for.

The Fighter no longer needs to meet ability score prereq's for any feat.

A Fighter may spend an hour to retrain any FBF. The Fighter may retrain any number of FBF at the rate of 1/hour. At level 10, the Fighter may retrain feats gained from ECL in the same manor.

Once a fighter has a feat for 2 levels (the level the fighter gained it and all through the next level) the Fighter may then retrain any of its feat prereqs. A fighter who has a feat that has dodge and combat expertise as prereqs keeps the feat for 2 levels, the fighter on the third level of having the feat may now spend an hour for dodge and an hour for combat expertise to retrain them to other feats that will be more useful/feats that the fighter will use.



I still need to word this better I'm sure but it portrays my basic thoughts on this.

One of the reasons I have fighters able to ignore the ability score prereqs is cause in my years of playing sports I have seen many many maaaany completely stupid guys be able to do something that smarter (and slightly athletic) people can't.

Another problem I have is that metamagic feats don't require any ability scores (well none that I know of) yet the feats for the guys and gals that live and die by them have them out the wazoo.

Also I know it is a bit odd to see a fighter with an 8 for dex use whirlwind but if you refluff it then the feats works (think clumsy ogre spinning with a great club hahaha).

Ashtagon
2012-07-27, 10:54 AM
The problem with giving a meta-magic feat a prereq is that either you get a big shrug when you tell the wizard he needs Intelligence 17 (when he had 18 at 1st level, at least). Or you create ability score prerequs that don't quite make sense (eg Int, Wis, and Cha 13+).

I normally houserule you can add your fighter class level to your ability scores in order to meet the prereqs for any feats tagged as fighter bonus feats.

I'm cool with one-hour feat retraining, but untraining a feat that is acting as a prereq rapidly gets iffy when you consider multiclass characters, since that feature could in principle be used to aid the character's non-fighter class levels.

None of this fixes the basic problem that feats basically suck as a class feature though.

SSGoW
2012-07-27, 12:49 PM
The problem with giving a meta-magic feat a prereq is that either you get a big shrug when you tell the wizard he needs Intelligence 17 (when he had 18 at 1st level, at least). Or you create ability score prerequs that don't quite make sense (eg Int, Wis, and Cha 13+).

I normally houserule you can add your fighter class level to your ability scores in order to meet the prereqs for any feats tagged as fighter bonus feats.

I'm cool with one-hour feat retraining, but untraining a feat that is acting as a prereq rapidly gets iffy when you consider multiclass characters, since that feature could in principle be used to aid the character's non-fighter class levels.

None of this fixes the basic problem that feats basically suck as a class feature though.

Well fixing feats is a whole new beast that should be left to the DM on a game by game basis. I saw a few good ideas on here.

My idea is just to give Mr Feat the means of dealing with that beast in a better way rather than gut the feat system and start from scratch.

I don't think its perfect but giving the fighter a better management system is easier and it works for the most part :)

*EDIT*

I'm recreating this class with the idea that people won't want to multiclass or at the very least they will think "hmm do I really want to multiclass?". I think every class should be made in such a way a majority of people won't want to take 2 levels and then leave since the class beyond that point is horrid. Sure people may still multiclass and heck it may be an awesome multiclass but I wouldn't want to build or fix something with the idea of multiclassing in mind.

With that said I'm not sure how multiclassing would be hampered by the fact that you can retrain your feats. You can only retrain your FBF (until a certain level later) but if you go into a prestige class that has a feat prerequisite and then later you retrain that feat... You would no longer qualify for that prestige class.

A fighter 5/Wizard 10/Eldritch Knight 5 would be able to retrain her FBF into metamagic feats or whatever she wanted

a Fighter 5/Rogue 10/Shadow Dancer 5 who had combat reflexes, dodge and mobility as her FBF then she would still be able to retrain them but she would loose her shadow dancer abilities since she no longer qualified for it (though she could just pick up those feats in her normal line of feats).

SSGoW
2012-08-02, 05:24 AM
I've updated a few things, took some wording from the SRD (powerful build) and added a couple things.

Is Veteran good enough as is or should I allow 2 of the choices?

silphael
2012-08-02, 06:00 AM
Maybe one at first level, one at fifth, and one at tenth? With a mention on the skill providing one that says that they are retroactive, probably. And add that's it makes it too for the purpose of fulfilling prerequisites.

SSGoW
2012-08-03, 07:11 AM
Maybe one at first level, one at fifth, and one at tenth? With a mention on the skill providing one that says that they are retroactive, probably. And add that's it makes it too for the purpose of fulfilling prerequisites.

Well prereqs aren't really a problem. This fighter will be getting a ton of fighter bonus feats that he doesn't need to have ability score prereqs for.

I think I will go 1,5,10 and the skills will be retroactive. I may expand this and give a couple more options but give 3 slots to gain it in...

Perhaps gain Wis to ranged attacks, ranged dmg , wis to dex based skills. This will help make the fighter be able to be a ranged type character if so desired but still not be to MAD. Plus with this one a fighter could switch from ranged to melee with some prep time).

SSGoW
2012-08-05, 09:21 PM
Another feature of the fighter that I figured I would put in is somewhere around 10th level have all of his hit dice rolls from then onward be counted as max (even if he multiclasses later). I know HP doesn't matter much (many ways to kill someone with spells) but at least by the time the fighter hits later levels the PC will feel tough from having high hp.

Perhaps double the con bonus also?

SSGoW
2012-08-09, 09:53 PM
OK so I updated some stuff and also finally learned how to use tables... Ok so I copied and pasted a table... :D

I don't really see this as a fix for the fighter more of a ... Promotion... Yeah.. If the original 3.5 fighter was a grunt and the pathfinder was a lieutenant then this would be a major.

I also wasn't looking for balance between this and existing classes since I plan to deal with them next (Rogue, Ranger, and Barbarian mostly).

I put in "Experienced" to be more of a call back to the old days where Fighters leveled faster than the mages. This is one thing all mundane classes will have.

Any thoughts on the Zantetsuken? I wanted to put it around the power level of Power Word Kill but also beef it up a bit since I was thinking something like "Demi" and "Odin" from the Final Fantasy series.

Broken compared to the other melee classes? Yes... But wait until you see the plans I have for the barbarian's rage... >:D

Vadskye
2012-08-09, 11:35 PM
Have you read this (https://sites.google.com/site/endhavenproject/gaming/d-d-3-5-fighter-analysis)? Because if you haven't, you should. It looks like you're using a lot of the same ideas.

SSGoW
2012-08-10, 08:45 AM
Have you read this (https://sites.google.com/site/endhavenproject/gaming/d-d-3-5-fighter-analysis)? Because if you haven't, you should. It looks like you're using a lot of the same ideas.

I have not seen that before, thanks! I like a lot of what the author is saying.

It does bring up an important ability I forgot, the ability to block magic effects with a shield. The iconic image of a dragon breathing fire at a fighter and the fighter not getting hurt and coming in with a sword at the dragon's throat.

I'm going to read over that article a couple times and see if it helps me ..

Edit:

One thing I like is to give all the mundane fighter types (Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, Paladin) a X uses/day ability (such as rage with the barbarian). Though Rage needs to be changed a bit...

willpell
2012-08-10, 08:09 PM
It's rare for me to really like homebrew, so I'm fairly impressed with what you've done here. That said I do have several specific issues with a few of the choices you've made; I probably would change this in my campaign, but otherwise I might well use this.



Bad Saves:Reflex, Will

You don't really needs this line, since by definition having Fortitude as the only good save produces this result. I tripped up for a moment when reading this line; not a huge deal, but kinda annoying, like stumbling over your own feet for a second.


Starting Gold:As Fighter

:smallfrown:


Dex: Replace your dex modifier with your wisdom modifier when using AoO, Initiative, and Dex to AC.

I'm not sure what you mean by AoO here; the only time Dex is relevant to AoOs is with the Combat Reflexes or Weapon Finesse feats.


Dex: Replace your dex modifier with your wisdom modifier when using a ranged attack and dex based skills. You may also apply your wis mod when calculating ranged damage.

Ranged damage doesn't normally get an attribute modifier at all; if arrows and crossbow bolts are suddenly doing 4 more damage apiece, it makes for something of a sea change in the campaign, although this might be intentional / beneficial. Still it'd be a bit odd for the Fighter's arrows to be better than those of, say, an Arcane Archer or an archery-style Ranger.


Int: Replace your Int modifier with your wisdom modifier when determining skills points at first level, skill points at every other level besides first, and Int based skills.

You could just say "when determining skill points and INT based skills", as this writing could technically be read as saying the fighter only gets to use Wisdom for half his levels after first. I doubt anyone would actually try to argue that but still it reads oddly. Also personally I'm not sure it's right for a Wisdom modifier to apply to, say, Knowledge: the Planes or Decipher Script or Psicraft. For some things like Search or Appraise it fits, but overall I think that applying it to all INT-based skills is likely to lead to a few strange situations, where the first-level "veteran" knows more about some weird magical monster than the Wizard.


Cha: Replace your Cha modifier with your wisdom modifier when determining cha based skills and any feat that is fueled by charisma.

Again, some of the skills really seem like they shouldn't be substitutable. Wisdom-based Diplomacy is probably fine and you could make an argument for UMD, but wisdom-based Perform or Disguise seems wrong...and oddly, even for Intimidate it feels off. The Fighter should be good at Intimidate, but it seems like that should be the result of how strong and badass he is, not his clear-headedness and attunement to his surroundings.


The Fighter no longer needs to meet ability score prerequisites for any feat.

This one I really don't like, and your explanation of why you've done it is entirely contrary to my own attitude. Being able to Snatch Arrows with a dex of 4 just doesn't seem appropriate.

I have mixed feelings about Powerful Build; that seems like it should perhaps remain race-specific.


For a number of rounds a day equal to (1/2 Fighter level + Fighter's con mod) a Fighter may ignore penalty to speed due to armor (Dwarfs gain +10 bonus to speed), gains freedom of movement, and a bonus on attack rolls (con mod). Once used this ability can't be used until the Fighter is no longer slowed (see below).

Slowed: When the effects of a yell have ended the Fighter's normal speed is halved for a number of rounds equal to the number of rounds the fighter spent "yelling". At level 12 the Fighter no longer becomes slowed after the effects of a yell has ended.

This is a free action to activate usually done as part as talking (or yelling).

Freedom of Movement seems a bit too extraordinary to just give away; it will literally let you walk out of a "rope jacket", so it seems impossible to refluff as anything as mundane as "yelling to focus".

And actually now that I get this far it turns out that I don't so much like the entire homebrew you've done, as I like the idea of Veteran and feat retraining and maybe Powerful Build and that's about it. Oh well, that still puts you ahead of most of the homebrew I've seen.

SSGoW
2012-08-11, 12:18 AM
It's rare for me to really like homebrew, so I'm fairly impressed with what you've done here. That said I do have several specific issues with a few of the choices you've made; I probably would change this in my campaign, but otherwise I might well use this.



You don't really needs this line, since by definition having Fortitude as the only good save produces this result. I tripped up for a moment when reading this line; not a huge deal, but kinda annoying, like stumbling over your own feet for a second.



:smallfrown:



I'm not sure what you mean by AoO here; the only time Dex is relevant to AoOs is with the Combat Reflexes or Weapon Finesse feats.



Ranged damage doesn't normally get an attribute modifier at all; if arrows and crossbow bolts are suddenly doing 4 more damage apiece, it makes for something of a sea change in the campaign, although this might be intentional / beneficial. Still it'd be a bit odd for the Fighter's arrows to be better than those of, say, an Arcane Archer or an archery-style Ranger.



You could just say "when determining skill points and INT based skills", as this writing could technically be read as saying the fighter only gets to use Wisdom for half his levels after first. I doubt anyone would actually try to argue that but still it reads oddly. Also personally I'm not sure it's right for a Wisdom modifier to apply to, say, Knowledge: the Planes or Decipher Script or Psicraft. For some things like Search or Appraise it fits, but overall I think that applying it to all INT-based skills is likely to lead to a few strange situations, where the first-level "veteran" knows more about some weird magical monster than the Wizard.



Again, some of the skills really seem like they shouldn't be substitutable. Wisdom-based Diplomacy is probably fine and you could make an argument for UMD, but wisdom-based Perform or Disguise seems wrong...and oddly, even for Intimidate it feels off. The Fighter should be good at Intimidate, but it seems like that should be the result of how strong and badass he is, not his clear-headedness and attunement to his surroundings.



This one I really don't like, and your explanation of why you've done it is entirely contrary to my own attitude. Being able to Snatch Arrows with a dex of 4 just doesn't seem appropriate.

I have mixed feelings about Powerful Build; that seems like it should perhaps remain race-specific.



Freedom of Movement seems a bit too extraordinary to just give away; it will literally let you walk out of a "rope jacket", so it seems impossible to refluff as anything as mundane as "yelling to focus".

And actually now that I get this far it turns out that I don't so much like the entire homebrew you've done, as I like the idea of Veteran and feat retraining and maybe Powerful Build and that's about it. Oh well, that still puts you ahead of most of the homebrew I've seen.


Well thank you!

I'll explain everything later but I'm passing out right now. I will say a couple things... Most of the stat being replaced by other stats can be explained or refluffed as I will later. With freedom of movement... I see it as a fighter just saying "no" to being grappled or from being under a restraining spell. With the Cleric able to always have freedom of movement on (DMM Persist) I don't mind giving the Fighter some ability to move freely.

One last thing and then I'm going to go pass out. Being an ex-jock I've seen some of the meat-iest meat heads be able to do things that... They shouldn't be able to do by practicing enough. Though maybe not snatching arrows out of the air, some of these guys could perform dexterous feats even though they were str based. I've seen a almost 300 lb football player be pretty limber (though not a nice sight haha). I may change it to something along the lines of "A fighter only needs a score of 10 in each ability to meet prerequisites for feats no matter how high the ability score prerequisite is".

Later!

willpell
2012-08-11, 02:09 AM
Well either way I'll probably just skip that part if I use a portion of this homebrew. But I do like most of the Veteran possibles, except maybe for INT and some CHA skills.

SSGoW
2012-08-11, 08:17 PM
Well either way I'll probably just skip that part if I use a portion of this homebrew. But I do like most of the Veteran possibles, except maybe for INT and some CHA skills.

One of the rules for my fighter will be:

"You may drop any class feature (such as yell) to gain an additional Fighter Bonus Feat. If the class feature you drop has additional levels to them then you gain additional Fighter bonus feats at those levels."

This way if someone wants to be more "traditional" then this allows them to have a butt load of feats. And no matter how many feats you have I don't see it becoming broken especially compared to casters. I hope to give other mundane classes fun things to play around with too.

Anyways...


Bad Saves: A friend of mine wanted me to put that in there. I'm good either way.

Starting Gold: I'm leaving it as fighter but I'll be adding a clause saying you gain a suit of armor, ranged weapon, and a melee weapon. This equipment is from wherever you learned your trade from (military, fighter college, or old man from the hill).

Dex replacement: Yup I need to explain that better. With regards to feats such as number of AoO/round and weapon finesse.

Dex replacement and Wis to dmg on ranged dmg: Yeah I know dex usually doesn't add to damage on ranged attacks. However a arrow fired from the bow will hurt, however knowing exactly where to hit (through training) will make it hurt that much more. Plus the wis mod won't be to huge unless you take away from Str or Con.

Wis replacing Int: I'll change the wording since I don't want people messing that up. However the Fighter should know just as much about monsters (magical or not) since the Fighter has been training to kill since well forever. The thought that fighters (soldiers) don't use their brains or know stuff is silly as hell, my family has a long line of soldiers in them and they were all pretty in shape and smart as hell on tactics and book knowledge (I literally sat through tactical explanations as a kid... which at least explains what got me into D&D haha).

Wis replacing Cha... Really they are both mental stats that have a lot of overlap. Using your wisdom to outwit someone is about the same as using charisma, just going about it a different way. The way I see it is that you can explain just about anything for Wis/Int/Cha with another. *shrug*

Powerful Build: You can call it what you want but... This is the best way outside of just giving the fighter more Con and Str to show the fighter getting stronger and more powerful as they go on. Also I just love the idea of a fighter training his (or her) life and being able to grapple a dragon or something else that is larger than life. A fighter who is able to trip a great wyrm dragon by grabbing it and throwing it to the ground is just to much to pass up. Normally a fighter has to rely on a mage to grow him to be able to grapple/trip/other something bigger since the rules really really favor bigger opponents and they don't really give fighters much more than a +4 from a feat -_-;;; .

High level fighters should be able to face giants, dragons, and other monsters toe to toe.

Freedom of Movement: I don't see this as a huge problem. This ability represents a fighter being able to break bonds, run through difficult terrain, escape a grapple from a huge giant, and general show that the fighter is a badass. With limited uses per day (10 + Con Mod rounds/day at 20th level) I don't see this being particularity broken or to crazy. A mid level cleric can keep it up all day long without batting an eye. I will give yell the (Ex) tag though to show that it isn't magical.

Also with your example, the rope jacket would probably be broken out of with a strength check instead of using yell... Though if the fighter tried a few times and couldn't do it then he would probably go into focus to get out (which by the way I renamed the ability but didn't update the text).

Thanks for your help so far though!

willpell
2012-08-12, 12:27 AM
Also with your example, the rope jacket would probably be broken out of with a strength check instead of using yell...

That's not the point IMO; even if the option is sub-par compared to your others, you still shouldn't be able to do it if it involved you having a superhuman magical ability when your class's whole point is to not be magical or superhuman. It's like if Batman were suddenly able to fire incredibly weak lasers from his eyes; it doesn't matter that he would never want to, the fact that suddenly he can instantly short-circuits the "Batman has no superpowers, just incredible training and exercise" shtick which is completely important to who Batman is as a character. (Not that Batman comes out to be a Fighter in D&D, but the principle is the same; fighters do not have any variety of superpowers, not even the "blade magic" of a Warblade or the "ki focus" of a Monk.)

Deviston
2012-08-13, 08:17 AM
I just had an aneurysm. Besides the fact that this is extremely complicated (nothing wrong with that in itself) it's extremely STRANGE. I could critique the whole thing, but I'll settle for what sent blood streaming around in my brain case.

1. Fighter Bonus Feats are any feat that the fighter meets the prerequisites for.

As any character of any level, I am able to meet the prerequisites for Education, a feat that adds all Knowledge skill to your class. Magical Aptitude, +2 spellcraft and UMD, Tactile Trapsmith, exchanging Int for Dex for Disable Device and Search checks just to name a few. I personally, don't believe this fits as a fighter feat, but in your class, they are. As I meet the prereqs, they are as a fighter feat just like Power Attack. Me no gusta.

2. For the purposes of Fighter Bonus Feats, the Fighter only needs a score of 10 to qualify for the prerequisites.

I think it's fair to say that this was intended to be an ability to allow fighters to maintain the use of their feets even if their stats dropped (usually due to spells or effects) to the point that they didn't meet the prerequisites. This should be some stand alone ability, or worded to state just that. As it is worded, it makes one wonder if 1. Because you meet all the prereqs since ability requirement is lowered, then 2. All feats that I meet prereqs for (minus ability reqs) are fighter feats, and i can take them.

3. A Fighter may spend an hour to retrain any FBF. The Fighter may retrain any number of FBF at the rate of 1/hour. At level 10, the Fighter may retrain feats gained from ECL in the same manor.

Ugh... this allows you to take "years of training" and turn it into a 1 hour lesson of perfection. Imagine the dips... Wizard 19 Fighter 1. "ALL THE ITEM CREATIONS! at the cost of only 1 feat slot... sweeeeeeeeeet".

4. Once a fighter has a feat for 2 levels (the level the fighter gained it and all through the next level) the Fighter may then retrain any of its feat prerequisites. A fighter who has a feat that has dodge and combat expertise as prerequisites keeps the feat for 2 levels, the fighter on the third level of having the feat may now spend an hour for dodge and an hour for combat expertise to retrain them to other feats that will be more useful/feats that the fighter will use.

This does not stipulate that the class leveled has to be the fighter class. Once again, "ALL THE FEATS!" Wizard is pleased. Grab all the crappy metamagics you can, wait two wizard levels, and since you are still a fighter (1 level) you may change them out for better metamagics with no need to keep the lesser ones. I can see this going great with ANY character who wants TWF actually. Get all the way up to Greater TWF and them retrain the prereqs to have all the beast TWF and TWD feats. The Greater feats, as read, give you the benefits of the lesser feats, so you lose out on nothing.

OOH! I FIGURED IT OUT! Grab one level of this Fighter class, and you forever have a better version of the "floating feat" that the Chameleon PRC has. Since you can change it with an hour vs only once a day. Now if you go the full fighter class, you have ALL THE CHAMALEON FEATS! And since (according to your class) all ECL feats are also "FBF" which are exchangable, a human who dips one level into this class has THREE Chameleon feats floating not to mention that every feat they get after that (via having character levels) turns into Chameleon feats. Ok... I've decided, you should leave it the way it is. I'm taking this class as level 1 EVERY time without fail.


EDIT: Noticed this now...

•Any class feature that the fighter obtains may be replaced by a Fighter Bonus Feat. If the class ability (such as Powerful Build) is on multiple levels then the Fighter gains a Fighter bonus feat at those levels.

Now I have a total of 35 Chameleon feats derived from this class, and 7 more Chameleon feats from character levels. Cool.

SSGoW
2012-08-15, 05:48 PM
I just had an aneurysm. Besides the fact that this is extremely complicated (nothing wrong with that in itself) it's extremely STRANGE. I could critique the whole thing, but I'll settle for what sent blood streaming around in my brain case.

1. Fighter Bonus Feats are any feat that the fighter meets the prerequisites for.

As any character of any level, I am able to meet the prerequisites for Education, a feat that adds all Knowledge skill to your class. Magical Aptitude, +2 spellcraft and UMD, Tactile Trapsmith, exchanging Int for Dex for Disable Device and Search checks just to name a few. I personally, don't believe this fits as a fighter feat, but in your class, they are. As I meet the prereqs, they are as a fighter feat just like Power Attack. Me no gusta.

2. For the purposes of Fighter Bonus Feats, the Fighter only needs a score of 10 to qualify for the prerequisites.

I think it's fair to say that this was intended to be an ability to allow fighters to maintain the use of their feets even if their stats dropped (usually due to spells or effects) to the point that they didn't meet the prerequisites. This should be some stand alone ability, or worded to state just that. As it is worded, it makes one wonder if 1. Because you meet all the prereqs since ability requirement is lowered, then 2. All feats that I meet prereqs for (minus ability reqs) are fighter feats, and i can take them.

3. A Fighter may spend an hour to retrain any FBF. The Fighter may retrain any number of FBF at the rate of 1/hour. At level 10, the Fighter may retrain feats gained from ECL in the same manor.

Ugh... this allows you to take "years of training" and turn it into a 1 hour lesson of perfection. Imagine the dips... Wizard 19 Fighter 1. "ALL THE ITEM CREATIONS! at the cost of only 1 feat slot... sweeeeeeeeeet".

4. Once a fighter has a feat for 2 levels (the level the fighter gained it and all through the next level) the Fighter may then retrain any of its feat prerequisites. A fighter who has a feat that has dodge and combat expertise as prerequisites keeps the feat for 2 levels, the fighter on the third level of having the feat may now spend an hour for dodge and an hour for combat expertise to retrain them to other feats that will be more useful/feats that the fighter will use.

This does not stipulate that the class leveled has to be the fighter class. Once again, "ALL THE FEATS!" Wizard is pleased. Grab all the crappy metamagics you can, wait two wizard levels, and since you are still a fighter (1 level) you may change them out for better metamagics with no need to keep the lesser ones. I can see this going great with ANY character who wants TWF actually. Get all the way up to Greater TWF and them retrain the prereqs to have all the beast TWF and TWD feats. The Greater feats, as read, give you the benefits of the lesser feats, so you lose out on nothing.

OOH! I FIGURED IT OUT! Grab one level of this Fighter class, and you forever have a better version of the "floating feat" that the Chameleon PRC has. Since you can change it with an hour vs only once a day. Now if you go the full fighter class, you have ALL THE CHAMALEON FEATS! And since (according to your class) all ECL feats are also "FBF" which are exchangable, a human who dips one level into this class has THREE Chameleon feats floating not to mention that every feat they get after that (via having character levels) turns into Chameleon feats. Ok... I've decided, you should leave it the way it is. I'm taking this class as level 1 EVERY time without fail.


EDIT: Noticed this now...

•Any class feature that the fighter obtains may be replaced by a Fighter Bonus Feat. If the class ability (such as Powerful Build) is on multiple levels then the Fighter gains a Fighter bonus feat at those levels.

Now I have a total of 35 Chameleon feats derived from this class, and 7 more Chameleon feats from character levels. Cool.

=====

Thank you for your reply, I do appreciate it but... Wow calm down, you seem like you are taking it as a personal insult that there are holes in my design that is about 2 weeks old now... Seriously I'm not the one that killed your pet.

Anyways to your points.

1.: Fighter Bonus Feats: Fighters are soldiers, and being as such they come in many forms. Some like brute force and others may be a combat medic or even a I don't know... Sneak attack type (3.5 has this by the way). The Fighter Bonus Feat system I have was put in place to let people pick a specialty OR be flexible. Actually it is meant to just be flexible but apparently if you are mundane you can't be flexible (so the term mundane human is a bit odd I guess...).

Once you learn ITWF (improved two weapon fighting) you don't need TWF (two weapon fighting) since it essentially is the same feat you just practiced so much that you got better. In Kendo you learn how to hit the head with a strike, however once you get good enough you don't really follow the same attack. You keep your body lined up with your arms and posture but you don't bring your sword all the way above your head. You are still using the basics and you still practice but now you have a strike that is quicker and more effective (and you will never use your practice strike in a real match again). The feat system here is like that. Once you learn a feat and then learn another you are treated to have kept that knowledge not for whatever reason totally forgotten it. (this is sooo much easier to explain in person haha).

2.: If a feat says "Dex 19" is required to take it (and is the only requirement) then if the Fighter has a score of 10 then he can take the feat.

That isn't to say some of the fluff needs to be... Changed... However that is up to the player and DM.

Take whirlwind for example. There are tons of feats and ability prerequisites that focus off dex. I could see this being a strength move easily. Heck I think 4e has moves like this that are keyed off str. Besides Fighters (coughheroscough) are supposed to be able to do things that make people go "O_o how the hell did HE do that". Imagine an orc spinning in circles (with a club out) to kill all the helpless little things that are annoying him, he doesn't have the dex but he is still a threat.

The way I changed Fighter Bonus Feats is that instead of having a list that a Fighter can choose from, I made it where he has more training in which to pick more abilities from. So instead of having a basket full of beets in which the fighter can take from... I gave the Fighter a basket and let him run wild in the grocery store.

3: Feat retraining: And how does this make the Wizard even more broken than before? Actually even with the floating feat I think that Wizard is weaker since he lost a caster level and a 9th level spell.

The retraining is any that the Fighter can normally take. Therefore this will be a selection that the Fighter already could have taken but didn't. I played sports my whole life so I know how easy it is to pick up different things, hell I went from basketball/soccer to kendo/tennis. Sure after switching I wasn't as good at basketball/soccer as kendo and tennis but that didn't mean I wasn't able to switch. During the time I was on the college kendo team I would play a pick up game of basketball. It would take me roughly ... 2 or 3 minutes to get back into the groove of things.

Again it must have just been horrible to think that a fighter can switch up his game plan... I might want to watch out that I rip a hole in the fabric of space time just for thinking a Fighter might be able to do something else with a little practice! :smallbiggrin:

4:Again I'm not sure why you are freaking out over this. I never said this was finished and even if I did... Why does it bother you so much (you may need to take a break from RPGs... I'm actually worried).

You also say all these things as if I somehow broke the game of D&D... Trust me bud, that ship sailed away years ago (though I do have hope in 5th ed).

A Wizard 5/Fighter 5 is still a Fighter 5 so any feats he gained as a Fighter can be used as if he (or she but I don't feel like writing he and she or he/she every time) still a Fighter 5. Again this doesn't break anything since well Wizard 10 is still more broken than anything with 5 levels of Fighter.

Thanks though, you reminded me to put something into the feats section. The ECL Feats = Fighter Bonus Feats were suppose to come online around 13 or so. I think I posted that in another post or perhaps I deleted it *shrug*.

In conclusion

You do know this is a homebrew and an active creation? Thanks for taking the time to read over everything ... And taking the time to reply. Also I guess I'm sorry that my homebrew was so horrid that you freaked out.


I'm a bit weirded out that anyone can get as worked up as you when they read homebrew. I pray you don't read the Wizard spell list after reading my Fighter...
===


Back to the Freedom of Movement

It isn't that the Fighter is gaining a spell, spell like ability, or even a supernatural ability. I could have just gave him a new ability called "Mr Awesome" but gave the ability all the same stuff as Freedom of Movement... However I didn't want to beat a dead horse with a stick. Instead of making something new with all the same abilities as something else I just used what everyone knows.

I didn't want to make a mistake during the creation like Magic of Incarnum did. Magic of Incarnum is wonderful but a lot of their wording and phrasing is just... Yeah crazy...

Anyways... Focus doesn't give the Fighter super powers. What it gives him is either an adrenaline rush/clearer thinking. I actually based Focus on Rage, I wanted the Fighter to have a "rounds/day" ability that would make getting more Fighter levels worth it (beyond everything else of course :p).

I may just rename Focus to "Adrenaline". Also I have yet to really fluff everything to where I believe it is ready to go.

I see what you mean but I'm not sure how to explain my point of view to well over the computer. After I get all the meat of the class fleshed out (+ the mechanics) then I will worry about the fluff.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2012-08-18, 05:59 PM
Fighter Bonus Feats are any feat that the fighter meets the prerequisites for.

For the purposes of Fighter Bonus Feats, the Fighter only needs a score of 10 to qualify for the prerequisites.

The first leads to very odd situations...I don't like it. Maybe something like "Fighter Bonus Feats are marked as such. Additionally, any feats with a Base Attack Bonus, Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution requirement counts as a Fighter Bonus Feat." This isn't perfect, but at least stops Metamagic and other silly feats from counting.

The second half needs to be worded "For the purposes of Fighter Bonus Feats with ability score prerequisites, the Fighter only needs a score of 10 in the listed ability scores." As currently written, a score of 10 (in what? It doesn't specify) allows him to ignore all prerequisites.


A Fighter may spend an hour to retrain any FBF. The Fighter may retrain any number of FBF at the rate of 1/hour.

Specify those gained through class features, since I don't like it working with normally gained feats...a class shouldn't interfere with features not gained via class progression. Additionally, specify that the retrained feat must ALSO be a Fighter Bonus Feat, or you get some funny interactions (i.e. you can train into feats you can't train out of).


Once a fighter has a feat for 2 levels (the level the fighter gained it and all through the next level) the Fighter may then retrain any of its feat prerequisites. A fighter who has a feat that has dodge and combat expertise as prerequisites keeps the feat for 2 levels, the fighter on the third level of having the feat may now spend an hour for dodge and an hour for combat expertise to retrain them to other feats that will be more useful/feats that the fighter will use.

What if I retrain to get that feat? Do I have to retrain the prerequisite feats, and then train them out afterwards? i.e. if I want to train Toughness into Whirlwind Expertise before a big fight, do I have to train into Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack and THEN train out of them if I don't want those feats?


At 12th level all ECL Feats are now considered Fighter Bonus Feats. Only ECL Feats gained when a level of Fighter was taken are considered Fighter Bonus Feats.

Urgh. First thing I've seen thus far that has really ground me the wrong way. Not a fan of class features altering the basics of character progression.

More to come later, but my girlfriend is poking me to pay attention to her instead of your class. :smalltongue:

willpell
2012-08-19, 05:07 AM
Once you learn ITWF (improved two weapon fighting) you don't need TWF (two weapon fighting) since it essentially is the same feat you just practiced so much that you got better.

This is incorrect. If you lose a prerequisite to a feat, you lose the use of that feat. So if you retrain TWF away, ITWF no longer works.


Imagine an orc spinning in circles (with a club out) to kill all the helpless little things that are annoying him, he doesn't have the dex but he is still a threat.

If he doesn't have much DEX then he is so slow and ponderous with his swing that everyone can easily duck or dodge back out of the way.


So instead of having a basket full of beets in which the fighter can take from... I gave the Fighter a basket and let him run wild in the grocery store.

At this point someone might as well just be a Warblade. To me the point of the fighter is that he doesn't have too many choices to make; he's just good with a sword and he solves all his problems in elegantly simple ways. (That he's *not* actually good with a sword is an unfortunate miscalculation on the designers' part, where they thought +1 to-hit was as big of a deal as the ability to cast a spell.)


You also say all these things as if I somehow broke the game of D&D... Trust me bud, that ship sailed away years ago (though I do have hope in 5th ed).

Agreed, I'm eager to see what 5E brings. But while the game as-is may be broken, there's little point in homebrewing if not to fix some of that brokenness.


I'm a bit weirded out that anyone can get as worked up as you when they read homebrew. I pray you don't read the Wizard spell list after reading my Fighter...

The wizard spell list is too large for anyone to read all at once. :smallwink:


It isn't that the Fighter is gaining a spell, spell like ability, or even a supernatural ability. I could have just gave him a new ability called "Mr Awesome" but gave the ability all the same stuff as Freedom of Movement... However I didn't want to beat a dead horse with a stick. Instead of making something new with all the same abilities as something else I just used what everyone knows.

In my opinion that was a miscalculation. Freedom of Movement has miraculous effects; it lets you walk right through solid barriers such as spiderwebs, and is shown doing this in the art. Getting an ability like that as a character who's explicitly not supposed to have any superpowers just isn't right. You could accomplish better versions of similar effects with something like +10 to Escape Artist checks, or the ability to break clear of a grapple with just one grapple check when pinned. This way, you still wouldn't be doing anything that ought to be impossible for you, you'd just be better at doing things that are possible.


I didn't want to make a mistake during the creation like Magic of Incarnum did. Magic of Incarnum is wonderful but a lot of their wording and phrasing is just... Yeah crazy...

Not that I disagree at all, but what specifically were you thinking of?


I may just rename Focus to "Adrenaline".

That might be a good idea. Both names have some of the right flavor but Focus to me sounds more like a Monk or Samurai thing.

TopCheese
2012-08-22, 09:00 PM
The wizard spell list is too large for anyone to read all at once. :smallwink:



And each of those spells is essentially a class feature.

The wizard doesn't have just three class features (spells, familiar, bonus feats) but has ... err however many spells/day that they get.

At level 1 the Wizard has 4 class features + bonus for Int mod (usually 4 to 5). And each level they gain more and more under the guise of one class feature. The wizard even can switch around his class features to some degree... Hmm...

==

Anyways I'll have a longer response later.

willpell
2012-08-22, 10:07 PM
And each of those spells is essentially a class feature.

The wizard doesn't have just three class features (spells, familiar, bonus feats) but has ... err however many spells/day that they get.

At level 1 the Wizard has 4 class features + bonus for Int mod (usually 4 to 5). And each level they gain more and more under the guise of one class feature. The wizard even can switch around his class features to some degree... Hmm...

I agree with all this, and was just thinking along those lines myself. I was thinking you might be able to begin balancing the game by turning EVERY aspect of every character class into a feat, and then switching things around until every class has the same number of feats. Martial classes would get feats for their larger hit dice, their higher BAB, their weapon and armor proficiencies, and a few more feats for combat maneuvers. Rogues would have the Sneak Attack feat and 2 or 3 "More Skill Points" feats, while other classes would get "More Skill Points" once or twice at most. And the wizard would pretty much treat every spell as a separate feat, perhaps gaining the ability to cast it more often but not to have so many different ones. The end result would be, well, probably something like 4E.

Vadskye
2012-08-22, 11:30 PM
If everyone can switch class features daily, you destroy the concept of fulfilling a single archetype - which is a really big part of being a character, I think. I think it's better to just remove casters' ability to change spells daily and put everyone back on the same playing field.

TopCheese
2012-08-30, 11:17 AM
The thing about feats and to an extent class features is that instead of saying "hey you learned this and you must always use this" you could say something like "this is what you are focusing on right now...maybe later you stop and focus on something else, but right now you are focusing on this."

There are some things in the real world we never forget like riding a bike or 2 + 2. That stuff is our chassis.

Other things like say.. Shooting a basketball or welding can be learned and if not used or focused on your skill in that ability becomes that of a common person picking up the skill/ability.

Sure I used to play basketball but trust me I can't shoot anywhere near the percentage of 3 pointers I used to. Heck at one point I could dunk a basketball (6ft white kid at the time... take that you darn movie!) but since college I focused on becoming a scientist and guess how far I can get off the ground now -_-;;;;

I'm all for class features and feats being retrained it makes the classes more realistic actually.

Oh and I don't think archtypes matter much in 3.5 since a wizard can pretty much be ANY archtype (yes even sword n board fighter).

SSGoW
2012-09-11, 09:33 PM
How about this for a class feature.

To show how strong a fighter's body and mind is, he gains immunity to the harmful spells of a specific school of magic. This school will be chosen at different levels starting at 5th and ending at 20th.

Sooo..

Starting at 5th level the Fighter's mind, body, and soul starts to resist magic. The Fighter's very essence repels magic in some form or another.

A Mage may be able to burn a normal person or even another weakly mage but a fighter? No a Fighter has been training for such attacks his whole life and can walk right through a fireball or necromantic spell like it is nothing.

At 5th level and every 3 levels after that (8,11,14,17, 20) the Fighter chooses a school of magic and becomes immune to the spells of that school.

The schools to choose from are

Abjuration
Conjuration
Divination
Enchantment
Evocation
Necromancy

I can write up some fluff sometime to explain exactly why they are immune but right now I won't. It will be a pure physical body over spell sort of thing. Kind of like "mind over body" except in reverse I guess.

A friend pointed out that Wizards have Miss Chanceso why not give the Fighter something that totally screws over the main schitch of the Wizard's class?

People say "but a fighter can swing a sword all day" but with one or two spells the wizard can make the fighter swing that same damn sword anyway the wizard likes. Heck some spells will get the fighter to kill his team mates and then himself...All..Day...Long...

Glimbur
2012-09-12, 08:05 PM
Immunity to conjuration is... problematic. Immune to cloudkill? Simple. Immune to the orb spells? Also simple. Conjured monsters? They allow SR, so there's precedent. But how does, say, immunity to Mage's Faithful Hound work? Are you invisible to it? What about immunity to a Called monster? What about immunity to Wall of Stone? Can you fall through a perfectly normal and solid bridge because it was created with magic? How do you get to other planes if you are immune to Plane Shift and Gate? Ok, that one is easily fixed with the ability to lower the immunity a la SR.

The point I'm trying to make is that 'immunity' to magic is difficult to adjudicate unless it works exactly like SR.

willpell
2012-09-13, 01:56 AM
Per RAW, "spell immunity" is exactly the same as SR which cannot be overcome, though it's not clear whether SSGoW was proposing the exact kind of spell immunity a golem has, or something similar but distinct in detail.

TuggyNE
2012-09-13, 02:48 AM
Per RAW, "spell immunity" is exactly the same as SR which cannot be overcome, though it's not clear whether SSGoW was proposing the exact kind of spell immunity a golem has, or something similar but distinct in detail.

More precisely, most 3.5 monsters that possess Magic Immunity or similar, with the notable exception of certain ELH monsters, are considered to have infinite spell resistance; there is as far as I know no general equation of the two, though, however sensible that might be.

As already mentioned, there's basically nothing else that makes sense. Unfortunately, there are a lot of important spells (especially in Conjuration) that don't allow SR, but there's no very easy fix for those.

TopCheese
2012-09-13, 01:35 PM
From what SSGoW and I have been talking about Sumoning spells goes a bit like this.

The summon creature is not the real creature but a copy of said creature summoned. This is why the creature just vanishes when droped to 0 hit points.

Therefore all the summoned creature really is...Is magic. When it attacks it is no different than an Orb spell, cloud kill, or any other type of spell. Everyone seems to think that the creature is real (and in a way it is). However it is still little particles of magic stitched together in a sometimes scary way (some summons are scary as... Yeah).

So the summon creature is a copy that can see and hear the Fighter. However since the copy is nothing more than Conjuration Magic weaved together in a cool way... Any attacks made by said summon just doesn't work in the Fighter. The Fighter would be immune to any physical or magical attacks from said summon. If the summon can cast entangle then that entangle doesn't effect the fighter since it is being cast by conjuration magic (even though it normally is a transmutation spell). If a wizard cast entangle then it would work as normal due to it being a transmutation spell.

This all goes by the premise that a summoned being is a copy.. If you gate in a Solar then the real Solar is there and the Fighter might want to run :p

I'm on my phone so this may need to be explained better haha:smallbiggrin:

SSGoW
2012-09-13, 02:21 PM
I'm not sure how I want this to work completely but I think this is the best way to even the odds. In the war of Casters vs. Mundane they both will get a weapon that more or less negates each other. Casters still get more options but now the Mundane Classes will have a pretty damn good defense.

It also will explain why Fighters can actually get to level 20. :smallannoyed: (A level 20 Fighter must be the rarest thing in the world... And every time one hits that level a layer of the Abyss freezes over for a few days.)

I would say give all mundane martial/ranged classes this ability. At least the tier 4 and below types, perhaps on a case by case scenerio (Barbarian, Ranger, and perhaps Rogue).

This will also give PC's a huge reason to stay in the class. At the lowest it would be a 5 level dip which hey I pushed it up from 2 levels! :p

And really getting all the immunities would be priceless to a build/martial character.

TopCheese
2012-09-13, 04:29 PM
Immunity to conjuration is... problematic. Immune to cloudkill? Simple. Immune to the orb spells? Also simple. Conjured monsters? They allow SR, so there's precedent. But how does, say, immunity to Mage's Faithful Hound work? Are you invisible to it? What about immunity to a Called monster? What about immunity to Wall of Stone? Can you fall through a perfectly normal and solid bridge because it was created with magic? How do you get to other planes if you are immune to Plane Shift and Gate? Ok, that one is easily fixed with the ability to lower the immunity a la SR.

The point I'm trying to make is that 'immunity' to magic is difficult to adjudicate unless it works exactly like SR.

The immunity is only for negative spells. So a bridge wouldn't make the fighter fall through it.

One of the things I thought about was a clause in "Powerful Build" (from the srd) where it says something like "if doing so is advantageous..." . Your body allows good thing to effect you without stopping it (tylenol) but not bad things (common cold) so why not allow this immunity to act the same.

Only spells that target the fighter are subject. Summoned monsters effect the Fighter but a wall of stone doesn't (just gets in the way...lol).

TuggyNE
2012-09-13, 04:52 PM
From what SSGoW and I have been talking about Sumoning spells goes a bit like this.

The summon creature is not the real creature but a copy of said creature summoned. This is why the creature just vanishes when droped to 0 hit points.

Therefore all the summoned creature really is...Is magic. When it attacks it is no different than an Orb spell, cloud kill, or any other type of spell. Everyone seems to think that the creature is real (and in a way it is). However it is still little particles of magic stitched together in a sometimes scary way (some summons are scary as... Yeah).

So the summon creature is a copy that can see and hear the Fighter. However since the copy is nothing more than Conjuration Magic weaved together in a cool way... Any attacks made by said summon just doesn't work in the Fighter. The Fighter would be immune to any physical or magical attacks from said summon. If the summon can cast entangle then that entangle doesn't effect the fighter since it is being cast by conjuration magic (even though it normally is a transmutation spell). If a wizard cast entangle then it would work as normal due to it being a transmutation spell.

This all goes by the premise that a summoned being is a copy.. If you gate in a Solar then the real Solar is there and the Fighter might want to run :p

I'm on my phone so this may need to be explained better haha:smallbiggrin:

That's an interesting premise, but it forces changing the way the spells work. By RAW, a golem is not immune to summoned creature attacks. Fighters, however, are proposed to be able to ignore a physically present creature's attacks because it's held together by Conjuration magic? For that matter, if you were to be thoroughly consistent in allowing a Fighter to ignore conjured walls, you'd have to allow them to ignore gated Solars, teleported Wizards... the list goes on.

For that matter, is it possible for them to ignore +5 weapons? (It should not be, but because those appear to detect magic as Evocation spells, there's a strong case to be made that this change would allow them to.)

Oh, and can a Transmutation-immune Fighter ignore bull's strength cast on an enemy?


I'm not sure how I want this to work completely but I think this is the best way to even the odds. In the war of Casters vs. Mundane they both will get a weapon that more or less negates each other. Casters still get more options but now the Mundane Classes will have a pretty damn good defense.

It also will explain why Fighters can actually get to level 20. :smallannoyed: (A level 20 Fighter must be the rarest thing in the world... And every time one hits that level a layer of the Abyss freezes over for a few days.)

I would say give all mundane martial/ranged classes this ability. At least the tier 4 and below types, perhaps on a case by case scenerio (Barbarian, Ranger, and perhaps Rogue).

This will also give PC's a huge reason to stay in the class. At the lowest it would be a 5 level dip which hey I pushed it up from 2 levels! :p

And really getting all the immunities would be priceless to a build/martial character.

For metagame (i.e. balance) reasons, this is great. However, if you have to trample all over logic and consistency to do so, it's not so great. Unfortunately that appears to be essential for this concept, so I don't think it'll work out too well.


The immunity is only for negative spells. So a bridge wouldn't make the fighter fall through it.

One of the things I thought about was a clause in "Powerful Build" (from the srd) where it says something like "if doing so is advantageous..." . Your body allows good thing to effect you without stopping it (tylenol) but not bad things (common cold) so why not allow this immunity to act the same.

Only spells that target the fighter are subject. Summoned monsters effect the Fighter but a wall of stone doesn't (just gets in the way...lol).

A wall of stone can be tipped over to fall on the Fighter. Does he ignore it then, but not if it merely blocks the way? What if he's wading through lava and needs to get out as fast as possible, but a wall of iron is shoved in his path? It's clearly disadvantageous to the point of causing HP damage.

TopCheese
2012-09-13, 08:48 PM
That's an interesting premise, but it forces changing the way the spells work. By RAW, a golem is not immune to summoned creature attacks. Fighters, however, are proposed to be able to ignore a physically present creature's attacks because it's held together by Conjuration magic? For that matter, if you were to be thoroughly consistent in allowing a Fighter to ignore conjured walls, you'd have to allow them to ignore gated Solars, teleported Wizards... the list goes on.

For that matter, is it possible for them to ignore +5 weapons? (It should not be, but because those appear to detect magic as Evocation spells, there's a strong case to be made that this change would allow them to.)

Oh, and can a Transmutation-immune Fighter ignore bull's strength cast on an enemy?



For metagame (i.e. balance) reasons, this is great. However, if you have to trample all over logic and consistency to do so, it's not so great. Unfortunately that appears to be essential for this concept, so I don't think it'll work out too well.



A wall of stone can be tipped over to fall on the Fighter. Does he ignore it then, but not if it merely blocks the way? What if he's wading through lava and needs to get out as fast as possible, but a wall of iron is shoved in his path? It's clearly disadvantageous to the point of causing HP damage.

Well trampling logic happens quite a bit in D&D.

I would say if the spell is actually cast upon the fighter then it can be ignored. So a +5 Sword is still a +5 sword since the spell was cast upon the sword not on the Fighter. The wall of iron was not cast upon the fighter but on the land near the fighter, it is now a wall and perhaps give the fighter a bonus to breaking magical walls. Perhaps a sunder attempt or something like that.

The difference between summoned creatures and gated creatures is that the gated creature is physically there while the summoned creature is just a mass of magic that can do things based on the creature summoned. I think WoTC really made some errors about this and should have made the summon creatures the real ones. If you keep summoning stuff and they die then you have a fail chance on summoning... But I digress...

It is nice to see that really the only problem is with one school, the one school that happens to be the most powerful (depending on view point of course) in the game.

Transmutation isn't on the list of schools able to be immune from.

TuggyNE
2012-09-13, 09:06 PM
The difference between summoned creatures and gated creatures is that the gated creature is physically there while the summoned creature is just a mass of magic that can do things based on the creature summoned. I think WoTC really made some errors about this and should have made the summon creatures the real ones. If you keep summoning stuff and they die then you have a fail chance on summoning... But I digress...

A summoned creature isn't just a mass of magic, though; it's a physically present creature, physically able to touch characters or cast spells at them or whatever. That's what Conjuration means. Obviously, because it's a non-instantaneous spell, it's held together by magic; however, there is in fact an actual creature there.

(As it happens, there's already some vague rules text to the effect that a summon that dies takes 24 hours to reform; you could add in a bit that a given character always summons the same representatives of given monsters, so if you try to resummon the same thing within the reforming time it won't work.)

Anyway, the reason a summoned monster is able to hit someone with SR or immunity is the same in all cases: there's something physically there, physically able to attack, and SR and immunity does not protect against that, any more than it protects against teleportation.


Transmutation isn't on the list of schools able to be immune from.

Ah, my mistake. (Transmutation is either the most or second most powerful school.)

Edit: An alternative: is it possible to be immune to Evocation's darkness spell? If so, how?

TopCheese
2012-09-14, 06:57 AM
Ah, my mistake. (Transmutation is either the most or second most powerful school.)

Edit: An alternative: is it possible to be immune to Evocation's darkness spell? If so, how?

Funny enough most core transmutation are not harmful but utility/buff spells. But yeah I do believe it is number 2.

Yeah Evocation's Darkness just doesn't work on the fighter or his gear. So while a stone can be the object that darkness is cast upon, the Fighter's armor, weapons, items, or self can't be *unless* the fighter allows it.

If the fighter walks into magical darkness then it is normal? Yeah that sounds right.

However how about a "Sunder Magical Effect" class feature. For any spell or spell like ability used to create an effect that doesn't directly target the PC, the PC can "sunder" said effect. Any school that the PC gains immunity to can be sundered. Make a sunder check and if it beats the DC = 10 + Caster Level the the effect is broken. (DC may need to be changed)

Wall of Force? Blah! The Barbarian just charges right through it! Hahaha

willpell
2012-09-14, 08:37 AM
Wall of Force? Blah! The Barbarian just charges right through it! Hahaha

Excellent. In the Underdark book, they mention that some sections of the Underdark are constructed of walls of force. So the Drow just put WoFs over the bottomless pits and they know that they'll never have to worry about invading fighter-types, who are immune to the "floor" and thus fall to their deaths.

TopCheese
2012-09-14, 10:59 AM
Excellent. In the Underdark book, they mention that some sections of the Underdark are constructed of walls of force. So the Drow just put WoFs over the bottomless pits and they know that they'll never have to worry about invading fighter-types, who are immune to the "floor" and thus fall to their deaths.

Only if he sunders it.. Thus it is like any other floor/wall.

Of course it would make the fighter a great trapmonkey! Give them a ring of feather falling...

But technically that floor is not a harmful spell thus the fighter type wouldn't fall through.

TuggyNE
2012-09-14, 04:16 PM
Funny enough most core transmutation are not harmful but utility/buff spells.

Disintegrate.


Yeah Evocation's Darkness just doesn't work on the fighter or his gear. So while a stone can be the object that darkness is cast upon, the Fighter's armor, weapons, items, or self can't be *unless* the fighter allows it.

If the fighter walks into magical darkness then it is normal? Yeah that sounds right.

I'm still not quite sure I understand your meaning. If the fighter is in an area of darkness centered on a stone hidden in the wall, can the fighter see normally, or not? If not, then the fighter isn't immune to darkness in any meaningful way; if so, the in-game explanation becomes rather bizarre. (To be clear: I don't think there actually is any sensible way to be immune to darkness, any more than it's logical to be immune to mundane doors.)


However how about a "Sunder Magical Effect" class feature. For any spell or spell like ability used to create an effect that doesn't directly target the PC, the PC can "sunder" said effect. Any school that the PC gains immunity to can be sundered. Make a sunder check and if it beats the DC = 10 + Caster Level the the effect is broken. (DC may need to be changed)

This is rather more workable, although there are probably some rough edges to work out, such as the difficulty of knowing a) that a spell effect exists and b) that it can be sundered. (Spellcraft is a cross-class trained-only skill with an Int dependency in a class with 2 skill points / level and no Int synergy.)

The main problem, of course, is how to justify this fluff-wise. Does the PC need special equipment for this, like a rogue needs tools to disable magical traps?

Arguably, higher-level spells should be more difficult to sunder properly.


But technically that floor is not a harmful spell thus the fighter type wouldn't fall through.

Any changes that rely on vague wording like "harmful spells" in such a broad and open-ended way are seriously problematic. A given spell can, as noted, be harmful directly, harmful indirectly, harmful if removed, or harmless in all cases. Attempting to figure out "well, can this prove harmful in the future" automatically on behalf of the fighter will lead to all sorts of bizarre and conflicting rulings, along the lines of Iron Heart Surge. Instead, the PC should make the choice between allowing a spell to affect them or not (in the case of SR:Yes) or attempting to remove a spell (in the case of SR:No).

Tvtyrant
2012-09-14, 04:34 PM
More precisely, most 3.5 monsters that possess Magic Immunity or similar, with the notable exception of certain ELH monsters, are considered to have infinite spell resistance; there is as far as I know no general equation of the two, though, however sensible that might be.

As already mentioned, there's basically nothing else that makes sense. Unfortunately, there are a lot of important spells (especially in Conjuration) that don't allow SR, but there's no very easy fix for those.

Make it so that all of the spells from a given school now have a disbelieve function, so that the Fighter can make a save against their existence. Call it "Restore Normalcy" or something.

willpell
2012-09-14, 10:51 PM
This is rather more workable, although there are probably some rough edges to work out, such as the difficulty of knowing a) that a spell effect exists and b) that it can be sundered. (Spellcraft is a cross-class trained-only skill with an Int dependency in a class with 2 skill points / level and no Int synergy.)

As a big fan of Roy (and for that matter of Gordon Freeman and similar characters), I would be in favor of a fighter fix that had Int synergy.

Lord_Gareth
2012-09-14, 10:53 PM
As a big fan of Roy (and for that matter of Gordon Freeman and similar characters), I would be in favor of a fighter fix that had Int synergy.

May I direct you to Warblade? Most of its non-maneuver class features reward a high Intelligence (read: all of them).

willpell
2012-09-15, 01:39 AM
As usual, D&D's opinion of people who don't want to memorize half a book full of "spells" is to tell them to go **** themselves.... Still, I'll probably like that class eventually if that's the case, I just don't want to deal with it until I've actually, y'know, figured out what a Wizard or Cleric can do. (Even Psions are still mysterious to me, and they only have two books for me to read.)

TopCheese
2012-09-19, 10:49 AM
As usual, D&D's opinion of people who don't want to memorize half a book full of "spells" is to tell them to go **** themselves.... Still, I'll probably like that class eventually if that's the case, I just don't want to deal with it until I've actually, y'know, figured out what a Wizard or Cleric can do. (Even Psions are still mysterious to me, and they only have two books for me to read.)

This is one of the reasons why I like MoI. Well the basic idea of it at least.

You get points and put them into an area of your bosy to gain X benefit.

Plus you get a bonus goodie.

With MoI you can switch it up day to day (which is nice) but generally you will know exactly what you have. A wizard or warblade nows what he has but there is so much extra stuff that it bogs down your play and causes rule look ups and... yeah

I like the idea of making the MoI system more simple. You train your str checks? Bam you gain a bonus depending how much focus you put into your training. I'm still working on my fighter (tho work is getting in my way haha). You have 3 pts in your str checks? You have a + 9 to str checks. You work on your public speaking in the morning? Bam bonus to cha based skill checks. Sweet n simple.

Of course if you have the ability to be immune to schools of spells it streamlines a lot of the game.

Lord_Gareth
2012-09-19, 02:37 PM
As usual, D&D's opinion of people who don't want to memorize half a book full of "spells" is to tell them to go **** themselves.... Still, I'll probably like that class eventually if that's the case, I just don't want to deal with it until I've actually, y'know, figured out what a Wizard or Cleric can do. (Even Psions are still mysterious to me, and they only have two books for me to read.)

Good news - when it comes to Tome of Battle, this is wholly untrue! Here's my quick guide to creating an effective ToB character:

1. Choose a class. If you like PrCs, consult PrCs in the back so you can plan ahead for feat and maneuver requirements.

2. Invest your ability scores in Strength/Con/Tertiary stat (Int for Warblades, Cha for Crusaders, Wis for Swordsages), possibly replacing Strength with Dex for Swordsage builds using Shadow Blade.

3. Pick whatever maneuvers you want! No, seriously - if it sounds cool, it is! If it turns out not to be cool or to stop being cool later, you get to trade it in starting at level 4 and every 2 levels thereafter!

4. Do whatever with your feats. No, really. Do whatever. Doesn't even matter. Purchase Weapon Focus. Buy up Toughness. Learn how to Disarm, pick whatever sounds cool to you. Keep in mind, though, that your maneuvers replace a lot of things like Disarm, Sunder, Trip and et cetera, freeing you to learn other feats like an exotic weapon!

And you're done. No memorization needed whatsoever.

Flickerdart
2012-09-19, 02:43 PM
There's maneuver cards available for free on WotC's site. Print out the ones you use, and you will never have to memorize anything again.

willpell
2012-09-19, 06:58 PM
Good news - when it comes to Tome of Battle, this is wholly untrue!

Except that what I said was exactly true - maneuvers are "spells".

Flickerdart
2012-09-19, 07:27 PM
Except that what I said was exactly true - maneuvers are "spells".
Maneuvers are not prepared at the start of the day
Maneuvers do not have a limit on daily uses
Maneuvers are, by and large, not magical
Maneuvers do not have components

The only way in which maneuvers are anything like spells is their typesetting. And by that logic, classes are just "feats".

willpell
2012-09-19, 10:09 PM
Maneuvers and spells are both what I generically refer to as "widgets". So are feats, class features, skill tricks, racial abilities, and even weapons, magic items, and special combat actions such as Trip and Sunder. Obviously, a character needs some widgets to function, but EVERY character has large numbers of widgets right out the gate - every single character has all the combat actions, even if they're incapable of using them successfully, plus nearly every creature has some equipment, all characters have some feats of which only a few are "forgettable", every nonhuman character has some racial abilities to keep track of. But where things get really insane is when a character's widgets change day by day, especially if the list you're choosing from is immense.

The Warblade might not be as bad as a Cleric, but he's still overcomplected compared to a Fighter. Rather than "Fighters are bad, play a Warblade", I want to hear "Warblades are better than Fighters, here's how you make a Fighter hit just as hard as a Warblade, without having any fancy tricks for you to memorize".

EDIT - For the record I am also in favor of changing spellcasting characters to be less complicated, though they should still end up being more so than physical adepts. Narrowing the list of spells a wizard or cleric has access to, in exchange for giving them a free reserve feat or something so that they have weak but infinitely-usable "spells" to help them keep pace...this is good for the game.

Answerer
2012-09-19, 11:23 PM
Then I suggest that you play a different system, since 3.5 is all about maximizing your access to "widgets." The entire system revolves around them.

Flickerdart
2012-09-19, 11:29 PM
Rather than "Fighters are bad, play a Warblade", I want to hear "Warblades are better than Fighters, here's how you make a Fighter hit just as hard as a Warblade, without having any fancy tricks for you to memorize".
Fighter already hits as hard as, if not harder, than a Warblade. That's not the Fighter's problem. The problem is that he has no fancy tricks, because he can't do anything except hit stuff real hard.

willpell
2012-09-20, 10:04 AM
The problem is, as they say, "Linear Fighters, Quadratic Wizards". The simple solution would simply be to make fighters more nearly quadratic. Make it so a level 20 fighter is the veritable god of the sword, as deadly inside an AMF as a Wizard 20 is anywhere else. Make him a Gilgamesh who can cleave a stone giant in twain with a single stroke. It's perfectly appropriate for him not to be very successful against, say, pixies, but he should be able to use magic items (use-activated, not UMDed) to compensate for his innate weaknesses there. And I've often felt that because the fighter is the only class who does not have any drastic divide between himself and the common people, he ought to be the ultimate populist hero, so part of how he solves problems should be to bring together a team of specialists, organizing them into a force that can accomplish more than they could alone. (Granted this is kind of stepping on the Marshal's toes; perhaps I should just gestalt Fighter and Marshal and call it a day.)

Flickerdart
2012-09-20, 12:02 PM
It doesn't seem like you actually know what that phrase means. The reason that Wizards are Quadratic is precisely what I said - not only do their spells increase in power, they also get more varied ones. A very basic Ubercharge Fighter can destroy a CR-equivalent monster several times over in a single round. Killing a stone giant in a single stroke? That's only 119 damage, that's not terribly much.

Relying on other characters to contribute for him is a terrible plan in many respects.

willpell
2012-09-20, 10:06 PM
I can live with a "terrible" plan as long as I don't have to spend eight hours memorizing it.

Answerer
2012-09-21, 09:46 AM
Which, as stated, you don't, because Tome of Battle is extremely well-designed and all you have to do is pick whatever sounds cool, and print out the matching Maneuver Cards so you know their details during the game.

Lord_Gareth
2012-09-21, 10:00 AM
I can live with a "terrible" plan as long as I don't have to spend eight hours memorizing it.

Which, ah, you don't. You spend fifteen minutes in the morning (actually, no, fifteen minutes any time you damn well please) choosing your loadout of readied manuevers, and you can do so any time you have a spare fifteen minutes. If that's too long for you, you can take the Adaptive Style feat and cut that down to one round - six seconds - to ready whatever maneuvers you like.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2012-09-21, 10:02 AM
Which, ah, you don't. You spend fifteen minutes in the morning (actually, no, fifteen minutes any time you damn well please) choosing your loadout of readied manuevers, and you can do so any time you have a spare fifteen minutes. If that's too long for you, you can take the Adaptive Style feat and cut that down to one round - six seconds - to ready whatever maneuvers you like.

He meant out-of-game, Gareth. :smalltongue:

But yeah...it's a LOT less than 8 hours. It takes a fairly short time to select maneuvers, and you memorize what you have very quickly...and/or don't need to memorize them at all with the maneuver cards.

willpell
2012-09-21, 11:59 AM
Which, as stated, you don't, because Tome of Battle is extremely well-designed and all you have to do is pick whatever sounds cool, and print out the matching Maneuver Cards so you know their details during the game.

You still have to read every maneuver in the book, or at least every one tagged for your class, in order to know what your options are, unless you want to hamstring your build by picking blindly. The Fighter doesn't have this problem, except with Feats, and every character has to deal with those.

Lord_Gareth
2012-09-21, 12:19 PM
You still have to read every maneuver in the book, or at least every one tagged for your class, in order to know what your options are, unless you want to hamstring your build by picking blindly. The Fighter doesn't have this problem, except with Feats, and every character has to deal with those.

Allow us to repeat ourselves, again, just to be sure we cannot be misunderstood:

There is no hamstringing a ToB character unless you know enough about op to set out and intentionally ruin one. Pick whatever maneuvers have the coolest names, sight-unseen, and you'll still be perfectly combat-viable even taking into account that everyone thinks of 'cool' differently.

Is that explicit enough to prevent further incomprehension?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2012-09-21, 12:38 PM
You still have to read every maneuver in the book, or at least every one tagged for your class, in order to know what your options are, unless you want to hamstring your build by picking blindly. The Fighter doesn't have this problem, except with Feats, and every character has to deal with those.

Reading enough feats to make your 11 extra choices viable ones is actually MORE work than I've ever had to do for a ToB character. There are just so many feat options: you always feel like you missed a choice, or gave something up. Time of Battle has more FUN choices, and they're all at least viable choices.

Veklim
2012-09-21, 12:49 PM
You still have to read every maneuver in the book, or at least every one tagged for your class, in order to know what your options are, unless you want to hamstring your build by picking blindly. The Fighter doesn't have this problem, except with Feats, and every character has to deal with those.

I'm with Lord Gareth & Djinn in Tonic on this one, I don't even use ToB in my campaigns because too many of my players have a problem with it, but I picked up the book, and within half an hour had about 20 different build ideas. I think it's actually faster to make a highly functional and fun warblade than it is a standard fighter...especially past level 3 or 4.

Every character has 7 feats over 20 levels, some get a couple of bonus feats, usually picked from a small list. Fighters get nothing but feats, you spend all your time reading through splatbooks to find feats to help you do ANYTHING useful, then another 4 levels making convoluted and highly dubious levelling choices just to gain access to said feat. This sucks.

ToB is not the boogeyman so many think it is, it's streamlined, simple and highly effective. Some day my group will finally relent to it's use, and I can stop playing crazy muchkin just to cook up something 'not-a-mage' to challenge the group. As it stands just now, I can only challenge my players by learning half the spells in the damned compendium, and that's a lot more work for me, a lot more wasted time for my players, and much less fun. ToB would remove all these troubles (I think I'll just start using ToB NPCs for a while, see if the group get jealous enough to want in on the action :smallamused:).

willpell
2012-09-23, 02:39 AM
I have no trouble picking feats for a fighter; the PHB is full of great options. Combat Reflexes, Weapon Specialization, the Expertise, IUS and Power Attack chains, Mounted Combat if you want to be different - heck even Weapon Focus is a perfectly fine, if rather boring, low-level choice which you can retrain once it stops being relevant (if it ever does, which it shouldn't with Power Attack or Expertise in the mix). I still think Fighter is probably the class Wotco did best right out of the box, except maybe Barbarian. All the others are great if you optimize them to death, but I don't want to have to go to that much work.

Veklim
2012-09-23, 06:16 AM
I have no trouble picking feats for a fighter; the PHB is full of great options. Combat Reflexes, Weapon Specialization, the Expertise, IUS and Power Attack chains, Mounted Combat if you want to be different - heck even Weapon Focus is a perfectly fine, if rather boring, low-level choice which you can retrain once it stops being relevant (if it ever does, which it shouldn't with Power Attack or Expertise in the mix). I still think Fighter is probably the class Wotco did best right out of the box, except maybe Barbarian. All the others are great if you optimize them to death, but I don't want to have to go to that much work.

Errrrrrm....eh? Say what?!

A horrifically badly built wizard still has more options than an optimised fighter, and as a vanilla class is inherently stronger after about level 5 or 6, no matter what you do to your fighter at all. Fighters hit stuff, that's it. It's not even really designed, it's an empty chassis with extra feats. If you run by the E6 example then 2 feats = +1 CR, but this stands true for classes with actual class features, not JUST feats.

To top it off, almost all of the sensible fighter options in the PHB are either sub-standard and non-scaling, and/or require you to have a high stat other than Strength, which is silly when you consider how MAD a fighter has to get to actually obtain a paltry selection of options. Compound this issue with the complete lack of class features to enhance or interact with your feat selections, and you're left with one horribly plain and obvious fact. Fighters have next to nothing to play with.

I think the fighter is the biggest cop-out WotC have achieved in print to date (and I include 4th ed in this statement), barbarian is a decent class, I'll give you that much. It's not the most powerful of classes, but it gets unique class features, some actual bona-fide skill choices, and a smattering of utility which allows the class to do more than just hit stuff. Fighters don't even get one of these things.

willpell
2012-09-23, 06:33 AM
Errrrrrm....eh? Say what?!

A horrifically badly built wizard still has more options than an optimised fighter

"Options" are not the be-all and end-all of the game. I'd rather have one trick that I can always rely on than a generous handful of tricks that might work, depending on the situation, if I happened to prepare the right one that day.


Fighters hit stuff, that's it.

Right, which is pretty much what D&D is all about. Wizards get some ways to outdo fighters in the hitting-stuff department, but a lot of the more dominant options depend on what I regard as cheesy and overly generous DM rulings or strict applications of obviously-dysfunctional RAW. None of which ever applies to the fighter, because all he does is what the game is inherently designed to do. He rolls a d20 to see if he hits and then he rolls damage; that's the basic game mechanic, and he's better at it than anyone else is likely to be without significant shenanigans. (Though admittedly he's a lot more viable as various monster races, particularly Large and up, than he is as a human.)

Veklim
2012-09-23, 07:00 AM
Ahhhh, I believe I'm beginning to see the trouble here...

It appears (to me at least) that the style of campaign may have a large factor in this discussion, which we have hitherto ignored. When I run a campaign, the need for a fight is often a last resort, sure there's the random encounters, the NPCs who are out for the group's collective blood and of course the occasional EPIC BATTLE!!!!, but on the whole I prefer to have my group RP their way through a situation, to out-think the enemy and to generally avoid the messy and sometimes purely chaotic mess of 10 fights a day.

I'm not saying this is the only way to run a game, I've played many 'kick down the door' style campaigns, and they were fun. Trouble is, even with those games, I found the fighter to be, well, boring. There's only so many times you can utter the words 'I hit it with my greatsword' before you start wishing, just once, that you could say something, or indeed ANYTHING else.

Contrary to the appearance presented in my posting, I actually love the fighter, for all his useless lack of options, limited scope of development and consistent hobbling, the idea of a class which focuses so totally upon one form of combat is a very appealing one. What the fighter lacks is any sort of tools, abilities or choices when it comes to applying that prodigious combat prowess. He cannot use swift or immediate actions for much of anything, is limited by his mobility at all points (especially considering he can't actually make use of a full attack, his primary feature, unless he sacrifices all but a 5ft step) and generally runs out of anything useful to do the moment the blood stops flowing freely.

These are the options which pretty much all other classes have to some extent or another, and the fighter does not. In a game where combat is the be-all-end-all, and you have group support from a fullcaster or two, and someone to help mould the battlefield to your advantage, then the fighter is a god among men. The trouble I have is that all other classes have something or other which they can do WITHOUT the need for group support, and the fighter is lacking here too.

willpell
2012-09-23, 07:34 AM
It appears (to me at least) that the style of campaign may have a large factor in this discussion, which we have hitherto ignored. When I run a campaign, the need for a fight is often a last resort, sure there's the random encounters, the NPCs who are out for the group's collective blood and of course the occasional EPIC BATTLE!!!!, but on the whole I prefer to have my group RP their way through a situation, to out-think the enemy and to generally avoid the messy and sometimes purely chaotic mess of 10 fights a day.

To my way of thinking, the daily limits on spellcasting and special abilities are an extremely important balancing factor. Yes if you're willing to let the wizard have a 15-minute adventuring day, the fighter looks bad. But the universe isn't going to politely wait for you to refresh your spell slots before trying to kill you. The fighter's staying power, the ability to cast his "kill you with a f***ing sword" spell over and over, is at least theoretically what makes him comparable to a wizard. The wizard does have access to various "secure shelter" spells which can change that situation, something I consider to have been a miscalculation on the designers' part, but the lowest-level one is Rope Trick, which IMO doesn't work because I believe it requires you to continue clinging to the rope and thus you can't rest in it (this is admittedly a non-RAW interpretation, but I stand by it, as the spell is otherwise far too powerful for second level).

If I'm playing a wizard, I'm NOT going to nova out on the assumption that I will have an average of 3 or 4 encounters per day; I will routinely go to bed with half my spells uncast, having saved them in case of emergency, and to me that's how a wizard should be played. In that model, the fighter looks pretty good, since everyone is fighting with weapons most of the time, and non-fighters suck at it, plus other than Clerics they can't wear armor. The problem with my interpretation is that it does rather badly hose guys who have really weak X/day abilities, such as paladin smite or ACF ranger wild shape (which is "really weak" only at the low levels, of course).


Trouble is, even with those games, I found the fighter to be, well, boring. There's only so many times you can utter the words 'I hit it with my greatsword' before you start wishing, just once, that you could say something, or indeed ANYTHING else.

I see the logic in that, but ultimately I haven't played long enough to reach that level of boredom. I'm not in a weekly campaign; I play online, where a single combat round can take a week to run through. And I routinely switch characters for variety, so to me the important thing is for each character to be what he is. The wizard is a spellcaster, and carefully rationing his spell supply is part of what he does. Whereas not having to ration his daily stab/cut/bash supply is what a fighter does, and that influences how I roleplay him.


What the fighter lacks is any sort of tools, abilities or choices when it comes to applying that prodigious combat prowess.

It does seem that this is true, but I want the solution to be something which doesn't dilute the essence of the fighter, and having to shop a list (or even having a wide variety of named class features a la the Paladin) is not what that essence is all about.

Answerer
2012-09-23, 09:31 AM
"Options" are not the be-all and end-all of the game. I'd rather have one trick that I can always rely on than a generous handful of tricks that might work, depending on the situation, if I happened to prepare the right one that day.
Too bad, you're wrong. They are the be-all, end-all of the game. That's a fact. If we're talking about what makes the most optimal character, more options is what makes the best character.


Right, which is pretty much what D&D is all about. Wizards get some ways to outdo fighters in the hitting-stuff department, but a lot of the more dominant options depend on what I regard as cheesy and overly generous DM rulings or strict applications of obviously-dysfunctional RAW.
What's "generous" or "strict" about shapechange? Because it alone makes the Wizard a better melee warrior than the Fighter can ever be. The spell is overpowered as anything, but it's extremely clear and straightforward.


None of which ever applies to the fighter, because all he does is what the game is inherently designed to do. He rolls a d20 to see if he hits and then he rolls damage; that's the basic game mechanic, and he's better at it than anyone else is likely to be without significant shenanigans. (Though admittedly he's a lot more viable as various monster races, particularly Large and up, than he is as a human.)
That's simply not true at all. There are numerous classes that are better at rolling a d20 to hit and then rolling damage. The optimal approach to doing that actually involves multiclassing which may involve a level or two of Fighter, but certainly no more than that. Barbarian is much more important to it, and a Barbarian 20 is much better than a Fighter 20 anyway, particularly in Core.

willpell
2012-09-23, 10:02 AM
Too bad, you're wrong. They are the be-all, end-all of the game. That's a fact. If we're talking about what makes the most optimal character, more options is what makes the best character.

"The game" =/= "theoretical optimization.


What's "generous" or "strict" about shapechange? Because it alone makes the Wizard a better melee warrior than the Fighter can ever be. The spell is overpowered as anything, but it's extremely clear and straightforward.

Shapechange is a level 9 spell, so it won't come online until level 17. The highest-level character I've ever built is 11 (and he's not a fighter; I've never gotten one of them past level 7, and that was an archer so he's not precisely typical of the class). If the fighter turns out to suck for his last four levels, maybe my opinion of him will modify things.

Also, in several sources that I'm familiar with, it's indicated that taking an animal's shape risks having your mind become that of an animal as well. D&D leaves that detail out, but by adding it back in, you could significantly decrease the wizard's power level while adding flavor and drama. That's the kind of a change I'm ALWAYS in favor of; if I don't do it, it'll only be because I'm not up to working out the mechanical details. (Though as a level 9 spell, Shapechange might be beyond that risk; perhaps a lower-level polymorph spell should feature the risk, and Shapechange is the "corrected" version that takes more wizarding skill.)


That's simply not true at all. There are numerous classes that are better at rolling a d20 to hit and then rolling damage. The optimal approach to doing that actually involves multiclassing which may involve a level or two of Fighter, but certainly no more than that. Barbarian is much more important to it, and a Barbarian 20 is much better than a Fighter 20 anyway, particularly in Core.

Here's an optimization challenge for you: Build the best character possible without any optimization at all. I think you'll find Fighter looks like a pretty good class in that scenario, which is exactly where I spend most of my time. Optimization is work, and I play D&D for fun. I don't want to put in the effort to make some munchkinish uberbuild who can punch out Cthulhu one-handed; a character like that cakewalks all their adventures and is boring. I'd much rather play someone who's completely incompetent, constantly dropping his sword and accidentally insulting the king's daughter, and only occasionally managing through sheer dumb luck to achieve his goals. There's a lot of fun to be had with a character like that - it's called "roleplaying". Nearly every game other than D&D emphasizes that being a character you want to play is more important than being effective, but that doesn't mean this suddenly stops being true if D&D is your game, though admittedly it is somewhat less true. D&D has lots of rules so it can model a game in a very strict and detailed fashion - but you're always free to just throw those rules out at any time and have whatever would be funny or awesome or dramatic happen instead.

Answerer
2012-09-23, 12:22 PM
"The game" =/= "theoretical optimization.
Nothing theoretical about it. We're discussing mechanics. Mecanically, regardless of level of optimization, options trump lack thereof, period.


Shapechange is a level 9 spell, so it won't come online until level 17. The highest-level character I've ever built is 11 (and he's not a fighter; I've never gotten one of them past level 7, and that was an archer so he's not precisely typical of the class). If the fighter turns out to suck for his last four levels, maybe my opinion of him will modify things.
Meaningless; level 17 does exist and has to be considered. It is rather difficult to make the Wizard better at melee than a Fighter by level 7, though by no means impossible (yay, 4th-level spells: that includes polymorph), but you spoke generally, not about level 7 or level 1-3. If that were the range you were referring to, you should have said as much in your original statement.


Also, in several sources that I'm familiar with, it's indicated that taking an animal's shape risks having your mind become that of an animal as well. D&D leaves that detail out, but by adding it back in, you could significantly decrease the wizard's power level while adding flavor and drama. That's the kind of a change I'm ALWAYS in favor of; if I don't do it, it'll only be because I'm not up to working out the mechanical details. (Though as a level 9 spell, Shapechange might be beyond that risk; perhaps a lower-level polymorph spell should feature the risk, and Shapechange is the "corrected" version that takes more wizarding skill.)
So now you're saying that the Fighter is better because of a houserule that you support? Several sources your're familiar with? They're fictional stories, not scientific documents. There is absolutely no basis for what "would" happen with a magic spell. Neither the rules nor the fluff associated with them in D&D indicate any such risk. I'm here discussing 3.5, not whichever novels you're referring to.


Here's an optimization challenge for you: Build the best character possible without any optimization at all.
This is a completely self-contradictory statement. "Making the best character possible" is the definition of "optimization." And honestly, it's impossible to avoid optimizing unless you literally make every single mechanical decision related to your character by rolling dice. Optimization is nothing more than thinking about the choices you make in light of some desired goal; you are "optimizing" whatever facet of the character you are most interested in.

Clericzilla
2012-09-23, 10:07 PM
I like the idea of the Fighter being a "no" character.

The Rogue has Evasion and Tumble which is essentially a damage "no". Fireball? No! AoO? Nope!

Barbarian has damage reduction and uncanny dodge... Both of which don't really work that well BUT the thought is to say "no".

The Fighter (and all the other mundane classes) should have a way of saying no to each type of spells.

Perhaps not straight out immunity (though that is the easiest way to do it) but some way to tell the Wizard "No you aren't doing that to me today". I mean one of the most iconic images in fantasy is a Fighter blocking (not dodging/evading) a dragon's breath weapon with a shield. This is a big "NO". Some other iconic images is a spell hitting the Fighter's sword or shield and being deflected, another great "No".

I'll need to think a bit more on this...

PairO'Dice Lost
2012-09-23, 11:07 PM
Guys.

Do not argue with willpell.

It doesn't help.

The arguments in this thread have already been covered with him many a time. His hypothesis that all-day-every-day abilities are overpowered and spellcasters are not, his unwillingness to use pretty much anything outside of core because it requires too much effort in reading and comprehension, his misunderstanding of what optimization is or can be, his distrust of objective reality, and more have been addressed in threads that start out being D&D-related and devolve into willpell-vs.-everyone-else threads. By his standards basically every poster here is a munchkin, as far as I can tell, and rehashing things here will not change anyone's mind.

So, how 'bout dem fighter fixes that have nothing to do with ToB or Stormwind?

willpell
2012-09-23, 11:57 PM
Nothing theoretical about it. We're discussing mechanics. Mecanically, regardless of level of optimization, options trump lack thereof, period.

Completely untrue. If you go to the grocery store intending to buy your favorite brand and flavor of, say, canned soup, the presence of any brands and any flavors other than the one you're specifically looking for is an inconvenience, as it just makes you have to sift through this huge selection looking for the one you want. Now perhaps you have only a favorite brand OR flavor, so you benefit from some choice, but you still have extraneous options. Maybe you're not quite sure what your favorite brand or flavor is, but you're still finicky enough that having 100 flavors means having 90 flavors which will disappoint you, and you'd be far happier if they only gave you 10 flavors to choose from, even if only 1 of them was good - the percentage of options would be the same, but you'd have fewer false positives to test against before finidng your objective.

Options are NOT always good.


Meaningless; level 17 does exist and has to be considered. It is rather difficult to make the Wizard better at melee than a Fighter by level 7, though by no means impossible (yay, 4th-level spells: that includes polymorph), but you spoke generally, not about level 7 or level 1-3. If that were the range you were referring to, you should have said as much in your original statement.

Nonsense. I don't even remember what my original statement was; the subject has evolved over the course of discussion thus that the original parameters no longer apply. This is why formal logic is useless; conversation is a natural flow, an ever-moving target that you cannot hit by shooting at where it's going, because it does not move in a predictable pattern. You must abandon your preconceptions about the value of rigor; methodical practices will only cause you to reject ideas that might have proved valid if you'd taken the time to evaluate them.


So now you're saying that the Fighter is better because of a houserule that you support? Several sources your're familiar with? They're fictional stories, not scientific documents. There is absolutely no basis for what "would" happen with a magic spell.

Sure there is. Magic is not just a handwave, not unless the author is crap; the best fantasies are those in which magic follows its own internal logic, however nebulous. Versimilitude is a key factor in establishing that logic, and the idea that transforming yourself into an animal risks losing yoruself to that animal is loaded with versimilitude. Therefore, it is more "scientific" than the alternative, because it better portrays the subject in compelling terms, so that it seems realistic by virtue of having consequences beyond the intent.


This is a completely self-contradictory statement.

Intentionally so. Your fixation on the optimizer's logic-obsessed mindset causes you to perceive a paradox as unacceptible, but in fact contemplating the meaning of a contradiction is one of the surest paths to wisdom; there's a reason that Zen koans exist. Logic is a prison for yoru mind; it forces you to walk only on the lines of the grid, when the spaces between them are just as worthy of exploration. If you're afraid to plumb the meaning of a contradiction, then you have limited your mind in a very tragic way.


"Making the best character possible" is the definition of "optimization." And honestly, it's impossible to avoid optimizing unless you literally make every single mechanical decision related to your character by rolling dice. Optimization is nothing more than thinking about the choices you make in light of some desired goal; you are "optimizing" whatever facet of the character you are most interested in.

If this is true, then absolutely no character can ever be "useless" or "low-tier"; it is simply suited for a different subset of optimization. The fighter is the best possible character for my intended form of optimization, in which having to read book after book worth of spells, or even a single book of maneuvers and stances, is too damn much work when I just want to play a character who stabs things with a sword. For my purposes, the fighter is a Tier 1 class; it has all the options I will ever want. Therefore, by your definition, I can validly call it optimized. I've thought about the options, rejected all the non-fighter ones as unacceptible under my intended parameters, and am left with the Fighter, Aristocrat and Commoner as my only options; the Fighter is the most optimized of those choices.

TopCheese
2012-09-24, 12:17 AM
Guys.

Do not argue with willpell.

It doesn't help.

The arguments in this thread have already been covered with him many a time. His hypothesis that all-day-every-day abilities are overpowered and spellcasters are not, his unwillingness to use pretty much anything outside of core because it requires too much effort in reading and comprehension, his misunderstanding of what optimization is or can be, his distrust of objective reality, and more have been addressed in threads that start out being D&D-related and devolve into willpell-vs.-everyone-else threads. By his standards basically every poster here is a munchkin, as far as I can tell, and rehashing things here will not change anyone's mind.

So, how 'bout dem fighter fixes that have nothing to do with ToB or Stormwind?

Stormwind?

Besides being a beta test for 4e I think ToB is clearly a mundane core update. The three classes that most people havfe a problem with (fighter, monk, paladin) got a level up (warblade, swordsage, crusader).

I love ToB though I think they could have done more which is why I love homebrew fighter fixes.

PairO'Dice Lost
2012-09-24, 01:06 AM
Stormwind?

The Stormwind Fallacy (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/26203097/The_Stormwind_Fallacy_%28repost%29).

TopCheese
2012-09-24, 06:53 AM
The Stormwind Fallacy (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/26203097/The_Stormwind_Fallacy_%28repost%29).

Oooh gotcha!

I wasn't sure if it was another one of those obscure fighter builds/concepts or whatever.

Flickerdart
2012-09-24, 09:16 AM
I'm not really sure the Fighter needs a fix. You know how the Wizard is broken, but the Beguiler (illusionist/enchanter), Dread Necromancer (necromancer) and Warmage (evoker) are all mostly OK? Instead of trying to make a one-size-fits-all warrior, it might be time to abandon that and focus on classes that are more focused. That way, it's easier to fine-tune the performance of the class, while people who share willpell's opinion wouldn't be overburdened by all the reading that they have to do.