[3.5] Questions about CR

[Talkan]

I'm starting a campaign and I have some questions about Challenge Rating

First of all, how do you determine what Challenge Rating to make the monsters for the encounter? Do you make the total CR equal to the average character level? (i.e. 4 level 4 characters against something with a CR of 4) Or would it be the total CR is equal to the total character level? (4 level 4 characters against something with a CR of 16)

Also, I've heard people say that Challenge Rating and class levels have a 1:1 ratio. Is this how it works? I'm planning on having them face a lot of NPCs and I'd really like to know how the conversion works.

Thanks in advance!

[GenghisDon]

It depends how easy or hard the encounter is to be

The DMG says:
EL less than party level is EASY
EL=party level is a challenge
EL is1-4 greater than party = difficult
EL 5 or more than party= overwhelming

many here will dismiss that, particularily those that optimise, the more of that, the less the above fits.

EL is encounter level, not CR, although a CR 5 monster is also an EL 5 encounter.

2 CR X monsters makes EL of X+2
4 CR X monsters makes EL of X+4
8 CR X monsters makes EL of X+6
ect

an NPC with a PC class is generally considered CR=level

That help?

[Talkan]

Very much! Thanks!

[GenghisDon]

My pleasure.:smallsmile:

do you lack access to (some) books? look for some PDF's online if so, there is a great deal of info on designing encounters, ect out there. Experience is better than relying on others guesswork/experience, but you only get that with practice. Take what you can for now.

Have fun!

[Talkan]

As far as I know, I have access to most of the books, but I could be wrong. What books would you suggest for tips on designing encounters?

[KillianHawkeye]

an NPC with a PC class is generally considered CR=level

Additionally, NPCs with an NPC class are considered CR = Level - 1. (Of course, these are both assuming standard PC races that don't have their own CR outside of class levels).

[Talkan]

Additionally, NPCs with an NPC class are considered CR = Level - 1. (Of course, these are both assuming standard PC races that don't have their own CR outside of class levels).

Sweet! That'll help as well! Thanks!

[GenghisDon]

Start with the DM's Guide page 48+

[Kelb_Panthera]

Something to remember is that an EL of a given level will be more challenging if it is made up of multiple creatures of a lower CR than an encounter of the same EL comprised of only one monster.

[Flickerdart]

By the books, an appropriate encounter is CR = party level, if the party has 4 people. However, this encounter is only intended to reduce your party's total daily resources (spells, HP, so forth) by 20%. CR+4 (two doublings, or a party of CR+0 creatures) is a 50/50 chance, an encounter that will expend 100% of party resources and, in theory, comes down to chance and superior tactics. The more party members there are, the more creatures you will need to add to face them. It's technically also possible to just use stronger guys, but action advantage is very powerful, and if you're using something so strong that action advantage doesn't matter, the PCs are likely doomed.

If you tend to run more than one encounter per day, CR+0 or CR+1 (depending on party optimization) is a decent place to run. If you're closer to 1 or 2 encounters per day, CR+2 or +3 will let you field actually threatening monsters without making the odds too much against the players.

Of course, the CR system is not as accurate as the books make it seem. Always make sure that the stats of monsters match up against those of the players. When in doubt, I prefer to play it safe on offense, and go for riskier numbers on defense. 1 or 2 more points of AC won't raise the risk of the encounter as much as 1 or 2 more points to attack, and might tempt the PCs to bring out their flashier buffs and attacks.

[Talkan]

OK awesome!! This all helps a bunch!! Thank you all so much!!

So, I have 5 players, but it's likely that only 4 will be able to make it to most sessions. One is a Ranger and another is a Paladin, so when they gets their animal companion and mount will that make a difference?

Also, two of them are the types to settle an argument by killing the person who annoys them, and the others are loyal enough to back them up in almost any fight. The ones who initiate these are both non-casters, and will occasionally separate from the group, so I'm hoping it won't be too taxing on the party resources. If they keep stealing the spotlight, I'll ask them to tone it down, though.

[Flickerdart]

Animal companions, special mounts, familiars, summoned creatures and so forth don't add to the party's level if they are summoned through a class/racial feature or item.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Animal companions, special mounts, familiars, summoned creatures and so forth don't add to the party's level if they are summoned through a class/racial feature or item.

And, except for the special mount, usually end up dead in short order.

An animal companion makes a good flanker but a terrible frontliner, unless it belongs to a druid that's buffing it into orbit, and unless the special mount is more special than a celestial warhorse it probably won't contribute directly to combat at all.

[Talkan]

Ok, we actually had the first session last night and it was AWESOME!! The encounters were all challenging, but not overpowering, and everyone had lots of fun! Thank you guy so much!! :smallbiggrin: They did do some stuff I hadn't planned on and they also didn't do some stuff I had planned on them doing, but I managed to improvise a little and created some potential plot points that I can make work pretty well.

Do the animal companions really end up dead a lot? Are they really that delicate? I had always thought they were a lot better than a familiar in combat, especially if the owner was smart about how they used them. Was I wrong?

And the Paladin is a halfling and I believe he wants a Bat for his special mount, which I'm not opposed to, as it's creative and clever.

Our party rogue wants to train an attack dog. That would require Handle Animal checks, right? Would the DCs for something like this be in the Player's Handbook or Dungeon Master's Guide?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Yeah, the ranger's animal companion takes some serious work to make relavant. Being better than a familiar in combat isn't really saying much. For the same reason the rogue's attack dog will end up dead even faster unless he takes a dip into something to make it special. I like beastmaster in complete adventurer.

As for your players acting outside your expectations, get used to it. They're going to do that alot unless you're exceptionally talented at reading people. Even then they'll do it from time to time. Keep your plans vague enough that you don't lose a lot of work if the PC's go in an unexpected direction.

Happy gaming.

[Talkan]

Oh well, that's annoying.

And it wasn't a bad thing that they surprised me, it was great! They opened up some stuff I wouldn't have otherwise thought of!

[Kelb_Panthera]

Oh well, that's annoying.

And it wasn't a bad thing that they surprised me, it was great! They opened up some stuff I wouldn't have otherwise thought of!

If you want the ranger's animal companion to be relavant you could just house rule that he uses his ranger level as his effective druid level.

I honestly think the game would've been balanced a little better if the ranger and druid swapped animal companion rules anyway. Better fluff too. Druid is friends with all animals, why does he have one favorite? It makes more sense, to me, for the ranger to be the one with a constant companion.

[Flickerdart]

Our party rogue wants to train an attack dog. That would require Handle Animal checks, right? Would the DCs for something like this be in the Player's Handbook or Dungeon Master's Guide?
Ayup (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/handleAnimal.htm). Handle Animal skill. Training an animal takes one week per trick. Your Rogue will probably want to give the dog Attack (double time for attacking unnatural creatures), Defend, Down, Heel and Track.

[nyjastul69]

You might find the Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/rg/) articles useful. The ones titled "Animals" have information regarding your more recent posts.

[Talkan]

Sweet thanks again!! I think I will swap the Druid and Ranger Animal Companion Rules. I don't think anyone will be a Druid, so I don't think anyone will be too upset about it. Also, according to part 1 of the animals rules it's possible to rear a wild animal with a DC of 15+the HD of the animal. Is that just one check or would the character have to make them on a regular basis? The Rogue decided he wanted a Wolf, if possible, instead of just a dog. How would I go about doing this?

[Dusk Eclipse]

I would sugest you to tell the rogue to look into the Wild Cohort feat (it is online, normally I would link you to it; but linking from an IPad is a PITA) which gives him an animal quite similar to the Animal companion.

Meanwhile I think a normal Handle Animal check with DC 17 to rear the wolf ( or 21 for a Dire wolf) + another check with DC 20 to train the wolf for a purpose (I am partial to hunting; but training it for Attack works too). Also remember that a normal animal can only learn up to 6 tricks if they have int 2 (wolves do).

Finally I recommend you do a quick search for SonofZeal's Bubs the commoner build, it is both hilarious, effective and shows how powerful Handle Animal can be.

[TuggyNE]

Sweet thanks again!! I think I will swap the Druid and Ranger Animal Companion Rules. I don't think anyone will be a Druid, so I don't think anyone will be too upset about it. Also, according to part 1 of the animals rules it's possible to rear a wild animal with a DC of 15+the HD of the animal. Is that just one check or would the character have to make them on a regular basis? The Rogue decided he wanted a Wolf, if possible, instead of just a dog. How would I go about doing this?

Under the Action heading of Handle Animal, the SRD has this to say:
For tasks with specific time frames noted above, you must spend half this time (at the rate of 3 hours per day per animal being handled) working toward completion of the task before you attempt the Handle Animal check. If the check fails, your attempt to teach, rear, or train the animal fails and you need not complete the teaching, rearing, or training time. If the check succeeds, you must invest the remainder of the time to complete the teaching, rearing, or training.

So you spend between a few months and a year before making the check, then the same time again if the check succeeds.

[Talkan]

That's a very scary build... I'm really glad my players generally don't optimize... :smalleek:




So you spend between a few months and a year before making the check, then the same time again if the check succeeds.

Awesome!! This is exactly what I need!! Thanks so much!

[Dusk Eclipse]

:smallamused: Bubs is awesome; but trying to pull it of im a game deserves a DMG to the head and it is even more DM dependant thatn other builds. I mean it is not as if you could buy a Battletitan egg on the town's market...perhaps in Sigil.

Also note that you can buy NPC services so your Rogue ,ight prefer to pay a fee for a wolf instead of spending at least 6 weeks of probably more profitable grave robbingadventuring

[Talkan]

Yeah, that's a very scary build. And you can get 3 Battletitans!! That's ridiculous!!

I think he'd probably rather pay extra rather than rear it himself, so that definitely helps. I could be wrong, though.