[3.P] Are there 1/3 Arcane casters?

[grarrrg]

Alright. Terminology first, question second.

Full caster: Any class capable of casting 9th level spells before/at level 20.
2/3 caster: Any class capable of casting 6th level spells before/at level 20.
1/3 caster: Any class capable of casting 4th level spells before/at level 20.
These are the most common stopping points anyway, there are NO base classes with a Max Spell lower than 4. 8th level will count as Full, 7th will count as 2/3, and 5th will be ranked depending on how useful their Spell List is.

Original Question:
How come there are no 1/3 Arcane casters?
Why are there so few 2/3 Divine casters?

Going by Core (3.5 or PF, same diff)
1/3 Divine (2): Paladin, Ranger
2/3 Divine (0): (null)
Full Divine (2): Cleric, Druid
1/3 Arcane (0): (null)
2/3 Arcane (1): Bard
Full Arcane (2): Sorcerer, Wizard


Adding in official books
Thank you to eggs for the handy link (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8664.0)
Base Classes (a (P) means Pathfinder)
1/3 Divine (3): Antipaladin(P)*, Paladin, Ranger
1/2 Divine**: Adept, Mystic Ranger*
2/3 Divine (3): Divine Bard*, Inquisitor(P), Nightstalker
Full Divine (10): Archivist, Cleric, Druid, Favored Soul, Healer, Mystic, Oracle(P), Shaman, Shujenga, Spirit Shaman

1/3 Arcane (3): Hexblade, Savant, Spellthief
1/2 Arcane**: Duskblade, Magewright
2/3 Arcane (6): Alchemist(P)***, Bard, Factotum, Jester, Magus(P), Summoner(P)
Full Arcane (9): Beguiler, Death Master, Dread Necromancer, Sha'ir, Sorcerer, Warmage, Witch(P), Wizard, Wu Jen

2/3 Other (1): Artificer

*Alternate versions of current Base Classes
**Pending how strong people think their spell lists are, these may be bumped up or down
***Technically the Alchemist is not a "caster", but it may as well be

PrC's
I'm just going to count up what's in the link, there are a LOT
Divine, Max Level:
3 (1)
4 (23)
5 (4)
6 (.5)
8 (1)
9 (4)

Arcane, Max Level:
3 (4)
4 (13)
5 (1)
6 (2.5)
8 (1)
9 (2)

[Scarlet-Devil]

Hexblade; CW.

[Laura Eternata]

I don't have the book on me, but I'm 90% sure hexblades from Complete Warrior (3) are 1/3 arcane casters. They're also terrible, but you take what you can get.

EDIT: And swordsaged. Well, at least I put the (3).

[Amoren]

Duskblade from PHB II is also somewhere between 1/3rd and 2/3rd with 5th level spells (and a ton of them, to boot).

Sword of the Arcane Order Ranger and Paladin could also technically be 1/3rd arcane casters.

Divine bard is also 2rd Divine, I believe.

[eggs]

Spellthief also fits the bill.

[grarrrg]

Hexblade; CW.

In it goes.


Duskblade from PHB II is also somewhere between 1/3rd and 2/3rd with 5th level spells (and a ton of them, to boot).

Sword of the Arcane Order Ranger and Paladin could also technically be 1/3rd arcane casters.

Divine bard is also 2rd Divine, I believe.

I'm not sure how to rank Duskblade, I'll leave it to you (the people) to decide.
Divine Bard is in.

SotAO classes can still prepare Divine by Default, so I'm not sure if that counts, maybe count each as .5?

[Kuulvheysoon]

Spellthief (CAdv) is another 1/3 arcane caster, and the Mystic Ranger (one of the Dragon Magazines) is a 2/3 divine caster.

[ThiagoMartell]

Mystic Ranger is a bit like Duskblade, getting 5th level spells. Of course, the list of 5th level spells it can get (outside of Sword of Arcane Order) is really really small. So, not 2/3 at all.

Vigilante (Complete Adventurer) is Arcane 1/3
Death Delver (Heroes of Horror) is Divine 1/3
Suel Arcanamach (Complete Arcane) shares that weird '5th level spells only' spot with Mystic Ranger and Duskblade
Knight of the Weave (Champions of Valor) is Arcane 2/3

Trapsmith (Dungeonscape) caps at 3rd level spells.
Nar Demonbinder caps at 8th level spells.

IMHO your full, 2/3 and 1/3 description really does it. There are plenty of exceptions.

[Amoren]

I believe Temple Raider of Olidammara (Complete Divine?) is also a 1/3rd divine Prestige Class. There's a similar rogue 1/3rd PrC in Book of Exalted Deeds (the assassin that has the touch of death).

[ThiagoMartell]

I believe Temple Raider of Olidammara (Complete Divine?) is also a 1/3rd divine Prestige Class. There's a similar rogue 1/3rd PrC in Book of Exalted Deeds (the assassin that has the touch of death).

Slayer of Domiel

[eggs]

This thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8664.0) is relevant.

(It's an existing index of this material. The differences are that it includes Dragonlance and Dragon Magazine and doesn't include PF)

[dextercorvia]

I would call 4th level spells 1/2 caster, personally. That would leave 1/3 caster for things like Trapsmith that get left at 3rd level spells.

5th level spells: Suel Arcanamach,

4th level spells: Assassin, Vigilante

3rd level spells: Trapsmith

[grarrrg]

This thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8664.0) is relevant.

(It's an existing index of this material. The differences are that it includes Dragonlance and Dragon Magazine and doesn't include PF)

That is pretty much EXACTLY what I was looking for. My Google-Fu failed me.


I would call 4th level spells 1/2 caster, personally. That would leave 1/3 caster for things like Trapsmith that get left at 3rd level spells.

A: This is the reason why I defined my terms before doing anything else.

B: Considering that there are NO Base classes that stop at 3rd level, only 5 that go to 4th, and only five PrC's that stop at 3rd (there are, apparently, over 2 DOZEN that go to 4) I'm still counting 4th level as the 1/3 caster break point.

There appear to be no level 8's, and the Factotum stops at level 7, which is close enough to count as 2/3 caster.

As for 5th level, I guess it comes down to how useful their spell list is.
If they are very restricted like the Mystic Ranger, then 1/3, if they have a decent selection, then 2/3 is fine.

[dextercorvia]

Nar Demonbinder also makes it to 7th level spells.

[grarrrg]

Original Question:
How come there are no 1/3 Arcane casters?
Why are there so few 2/3 Divine casters?

Going by Core (3.5 or PF, same diff)
1/3 Divine (2): Paladin, Ranger
2/3 Divine (0): (null)
Full Divine (2): Cleric, Druid
1/3 Arcane (0): (null)
2/3 Arcane (1): Bard
Full Arcane (2): Sorcerer, Wizard

Going by Straight core, my assumptions are correct, however, once you add in non-core books...


Original Question:
How come there are no 1/3 Arcane casters?
Why are there so few 2/3 Divine casters?

Base Classes (a (P) means Pathfinder)
1/3 Divine (3): Antipaladin(P)*, Paladin, Ranger
1/2 Divine**: Adept, Mystic Ranger*
2/3 Divine (3): Divine Bard*, Inquisitor(P), Nightstalker
Full Divine (10): Archivist, Cleric, Druid, Favored Soul, Healer, Mystic, Oracle(P), Shaman, Shujenga, Spirit Shaman

1/3 Arcane (3): Hexblade, Savant, Spellthief
1/2 Arcane**: Duskblade, Magewright
2/3 Arcane (6): Alchemist(P)***, Bard, Factotum, Jester, Magus(P), Summoner(P)
Full Arcane (9): Beguiler, Death Master, Dread Necromancer, Sha'ir, Sorcerer, Warmage, Witch(P), Wizard, Wu Jen

Turns out they (eventually) made a decent variety of each, with more emphasis on Full Casters than anything else.
Even if you exclude Pathfinder and/or Alternate Versions (Mystic Ranger/Divine Bard), it still comes out about the same.

So my original guess was indeed wrong in the end.
Oh well.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Slight nitpick - it's a Wu Jen, not Wu Gen.

[Answerer]

4/9 is closer to 1/2 than it is to 1/3. More importantly, since spells start with 0, 5/10 is 1/2. 7/10 is close-ish to 2/3, but I've never heard anyone refer to Artificer and Bard as 2/3 casters.

This fraction business is kind of silly anyway. I mean, how are you going to classify the Nar Demonbinder (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030502a&page=2) or Sublime Chord?

[grarrrg]

Slight nitpick - it's a Wu Jen, not Wu Gen.

My brain knew that, but my fingers said "lolwut".



4/9 is closer to 1/2 than it is to 1/3. More importantly, since spells start with 0, 5/10 is 1/2. 7/10 is close-ish to 2/3, but I've never heard anyone refer to Artificer and Bard as 2/3 casters.

:smallsigh:
Once again, this is why I stated MY definitions to start with.

This will be the last time I explain.


Reread the first post, the last major edit was around 2 hours ago, with minor edits since then to fix spelling errors and such.
It explains the definitions that _I_ decided to use to answer the question that _I_ asked.

You'll also notice upon rereading that the PrC's were grouped by the Max Spell Level they reach. Because all that is important to my question is how many of each, and I didn't want to type ALL of the PrC's out, partly because of all the weird ones. So Nar Demonbinder is a "7", and Sublime Chord is a "9".

I decided (long ago) that 3 groups was a nice way to classify spell casters. Low Casting, Medium Casting, and Full Casting (technically 4 groups if you add in No Casting).
Since there were 3 major groups, and numbers are very prevalent throughout the game, I thought it would be easy to just call them "1/3", "2/3", and "Full" (being 3/3).
If you prefer, think of them as 1/2, 3/4 and Full. Or as 5/10, 7/10 and Full, or...
The point I'm trying to make with this paragraph is that THE LABELS DON'T MATTER.
As long as you can recognize that they _can_ be divided into 3 groups is all that matters.

[Answerer]

I don't think 3 groups is a meaningful way to discuss them, is part of my point. The labels are inconsequential but why use wrong labels when accurate ones are available?

[ThiagoMartell]

I don't think 3 groups is a meaningful way to discuss them, is part of my point. The labels are inconsequential but why use wrong labels when accurate ones are available?

Answerer is right on this one. Plenty of examples of classes don't meet the OP's classification criteria have popped up.

The question in the OP was already answered anyway (yes, there are).