Build Challenge

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm curious as to how some of the heavy optimizers would handle this:

Build an optimized monk20 without using size-stacking to damage or multiclassing at all.

Most of us already know that the best way to build a monk is to avoid taking more than 2 levels in monk, if that, or to size-stack unarmed strike damage into the stratosphere, but I want to see examples of what the next step down from these points is.

EDIT: 3.5 only please. :smallsmile:

[limejuicepowder]

I'm far from a great optimizer, but I would probably try to use the few things monks are good at: speed, and saving throws. Become (or try to become) a mage-harrier using speed, saves, and high touch AC.

Nearly all of WBL would have to be spent on ways to fly, break through miss chance, and seeing invisible enemies (non-trivial things). Would also have to add some way to prevent teleportation. Oh and initiative would have to be won as well.

Even if this proved to be a failure, at least the poor dude would be out of the front line where ogres, trolls, and giants would turn him to paste. Best realistic scenario is the mage at least doesn't have time to take over the fight because he has to pay attention to the sneaky monk.

[Keld Denar]

In b4 partially charged wands...

EDIT: I have nothing really to add here. Monk20 without size increases just doesn't have a whole lot going for it. Without a DM coddling you with items, you are way to MAD, don't have enough damage, and don't really have any way to enhance your UAS easily.

[eggs]

Should we assume drastic variants like Wild Shape Monk are out?

EDIT:
Or "No prereqs ever" implementations of Martial Monk?

[Glimbur]

You can get UMD in-class with a feat. Then max out UMD. Then use spells to UMD better so you can use staves and pretend to be a caster.

Alternately, use all of the consumables. Amber Amulet of Vermin, Bowl/Brazier/Etc of elemental summoning, Candle of Invocation, Dust of Disappearance, Elemental Gems... You just have to kill people rich enough to feed your crippling addiction.

As a class... Monk 20 could beat up monsters and encounters intended for lower level adventurers. Tribe of goblins? Doable. Kidnappers stole the King's daughter? Depending on how you spent your skills, feasible. CR 20 dragon threatens the kingdom? Find some friends.

[Roguenewb]

This is.....hard. Perhaps some sort of taking Troll Blooded nastiness, or necropolitan something. Some way to abuse types...

[Menteith]

ACFs/Substitution Levels;
Draconic Fist ACF, Invisible Fist ACF, Holy Strike ACF, Planar Monk Substitution Level 5, Dark Moon Substitution Levels 3 & 7, Passive Way Fighting Style


This grants the ability to add stacking elemental damage to attack, the ability go turn invisible for a round as an Immediate action every 3 rounds, 1d6 additional damage against Evil targets (and Good Aligns unarmed strikes), grants Energy Resistance 5 (meh, better than nonmagical disease immunity), Darkvision 60ft, total concealment in less than total daylight, and Improved Trip as your second level bonus feat (traded Combat Expertise for Draconic Fist). Take the Lion Tribe Warrior feat to grant Pounce.

It's not perfect, but it'll result in a halfway decent scout, who'd fit in fine is a low power campaign. The alternate is to stack every Stunning Fist boost possible onto the same character, turn it into an AoO with Pharaoh's Fist. It would follow similar guidelines as above, but use the default fighting style, and don't take Draconic Fist. The problem is that Boomerang Daze is basically just better than Stunning Fist in every single way, even if you spend every feat on pumping Stunning Fist, and it's way easier to build around Boomerang Daze for a mundane stunner.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Should we assume drastic variants like Wild Shape Monk are out?

EDIT:
Or "No prereqs ever" implementations of Martial Monk?

Yeah, that's not what I'm looking for. I'm not really familiar with martial monk.

[dextercorvia]

Begin as a shifter. Take Longtooth Elite and Combat Reflexes. Pay to be PAO'd into a 12 headed Hydra, and pick up a Dex Item. You might also want to invest in head protection. Take the reach feats (Deformity Tall, Inhuman Reach, Extend Reach) for an extra 15' of reach. (Note that nothing here is Monk specific -- but it will have a few more HP/BAB than a similarly arranged commoner.)

[eggs]

Martial Monk drops some skills to swap the Monk's feat list with any Fighter feats, but neglects to explicitly add prerequisites. So it gets squeezed in as an example of Monk cheese pretty often.

In that case, Monk builds are mostly going to look like gear lists, but there are some nifty but smaller ACFs scattered about:

The 7th level Dark Moon Disciple (CoV web) sub level is Total Concealment as long as the Monk's in shadowy areas. That's a pretty awesome benefit. Trades away Wholeness of Body.
Invisible Fist (EoE) trades away Evasion and Improved Evasion for Immediate Invisibility or Blink every 3 rounds. It's not a freebie, but it's generally awesome.
Holy Monk (DR#310) trades a couple bonus feats for Aura of Courage, Smite and Turn Undead (Hello, Travel Devotion)
Sidewinder Monk (DR#331) trades a bunch of junk features for sneak attack and a bite, but that could be getting into the "too drastic change" zone.
Sacred Strike (DR#346) trades Ki Strike and Improved Evasion for an awesome wisdom-based smite ability that leaves targets of the opposite alignment stunned and blinded.
The 6th level Illuminated Monk (DR#) sub level gives a Skill Mastery that can be swapped around with a bit of prep time in exchange for the 3rd level bonus feat.
Martial Monk (DR#310), without abusing RAW, adds variety to the Monk's bonus feats, which is typically a good thing.
Raging Monk (DR#310) trades Flurry, Still Mind and Quivering Palm for Barbarian rage, which can up the damage output on a mobile build and actually get the Monk up to a halfway respectable grapple mod.
The Sacred Path of Wee Jas fighting style is hilarious for helping a Monk meet all its partially-charged wand needs.

Without heavy ACFing, there are a few feats floating around weird sources like OA and Dragon magazine that can specifically buff the Monk a bit. Anchoring Blow (DR#304) adds Dimension Anchor as a rider effect on unarmed strikes, which can help to make a Monk actually competent at the grappling schtick; Pressure Point Strike (DR#336) adds a variety of options based on Stunning fist, including an (Ex) dispel; Choke Hold (OA) has a save-or-knockout on a pin - it's still unreliable, but when it works, the game's up; Grappling Block (OA) is a more specific (weapons only), but more powerful (disarm the attacker) Wall of Blades.

Patching a bit of all of that together and mixing in some clever item selection for teleportation and flight effects, and there's a bit of potential.

Just hashing things out without sketching entire builds, an Anchoring Blow + Scorpion's Grasp + Sacred Strike + Choke Hold + Raging Monk combo could work for single-target lockdowns, an Invisible Fist + Craven + Sidewinder Monk could just sneak attack things apart or a Stormguard Warrior + Travel Devotion + Holy Monk could charge up and break most targets in 2 rounds (especially with lots of extra weapons, like a Kobold or similar). Dark Moon disciple would work on any of those for an all-but-free consistent total concealment.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

in b4 Candle of Invocation -> Titan/Solar Gate Chains

At this point, with those restrictions, you're probably going to use any of several optimization tactics which rely not on the class, but on WBL, which means it could be equally applied to any class, and probably better on a different class.

In other words, it would be nothing a Commoner 20 wouldn't be able to do equally well.

Having said that, do some research on Commoner20 optimization stratagems... they can get quite abusive with the right toys.

[ThiagoMartell]

PF Zen Archer

/thread

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Definitely use Dark Moon Disciple (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) at Monk 7 to gain Shadow Blend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadowMastiff.htm) in place of Wholeness of Body.

Start out as a Lesser Aasimar with the Half-Minotuar template, buy off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) that +1 LA at Monk 3, then gain the Feral template, and buy that off at Monk 6. After that you gain the Saint template, and buy off those two points at Monk 12 and 15. At Monk 20 you're a Feral Lesser Aasimar Half-Minotuar Saint, who's paid 36,000 xp to have zero level adjustment.

Take two flaws, I'd get Bestial Instinct (Dragon 324, -2 to attack rolls with anything but natural weapons and unarmed strikes) and Individualist (Dragon 329, -2 to attack rolls with weapons you did not personally craft and +1 higher armor check penalty when using armor you did not personally craft). That's right, there are two flaws that should never have any drawback for a Monk character.

Feats: Stunning Fist (B), Multiattack (1), Nymph's Kiss (F), Touch of Golden Ice (F), Combat Reflexes (B), Darkstalker (3), Improved Trip (B), Sacred Vow (6), Knock-Down (9), Martial Study: Wall of Blades (12), Martial Study: Iron Heart Surge (15), Improved Multiattack (18)

Ideal gear, keeping in mind MIC p234: Ghost Shroud with +8 Armor bonus (as Bracers of), a +5 Enhancement bonus to armor bonus, a +5 Enhancement bonus to natural armor, and the built-in +1 Deflection bonus upgraded to +5; Cowl of Warding; Hathran Mask of True Seeing; Necklace of Natural Attacks +1 with Speed, Wounding, Throwing, and Wrathful Healing; Phoenix Cloak with +5 Resistance bonus to saves added; go over this list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851) and spend any remaining gold on anything that's not covered. Note that Throwing allows you to throw one of your hairs do deal full unarmed strike damage. Also get a Greater Magic Fang + Permanency at caster level 20 from casters who each have a Ring of Enduring Arcana on each of your natural weapons. Your 'unarmed strike' is a single natural weapon that takes only one casting to cover any part of your body that makes the attack.

Half-Minotaur gives you a gore attack, Feral gives you two claws, and two rakes with pounce, plus your unarmed strikes. Assuming your highest attack bonus with any weapon is +X, your full attack routine will look like the following, considering every weapon has the Speed property:
Unarmed Strike primary, +X/+X/X-5/X-10, full Str bonus to damage
Gore secondary, +X/+X, half Str bonus to damage
2 Claws secondary, +X/+X each, half Str bonus to damage
2 Rakes on a charge, +X/+X each, half Str bonus to damage

That's fourteen attacks per round, each of which delivers Golden Ice, deals a point of Con damage, heals you for half the damage dealt, and has a chance to activate Knock-Down. You get your Wis bonus to AC twice (Monk, Saint), plus tons of other bonuses for a decent AC, and good saves. With Dark Moon Disciple you get total concealment in anything but daylight, and thanks to Darkstalker they can't bypass it with Blindsight, Tremorsense, or any other special senses.


Come to think of it, you'd probably be better off just taking Leadership for a Tier 1 character and sidelining the Monk most of the time.

[erikun]

In other words, it would be nothing a Commoner 20 wouldn't be able to do equally well.

Having said that, do some research on Commoner20 optimization stratagems... they can get quite abusive with the right toys.
The few Commoner optimizations I've seen involve Handle Animal or Chicken Infested - or perhaps Profession. None of those (but Profession) help the Monk any.


It could be argued that using Power Attack with a quarterstaff during Flurry of Blows can grant you the 2:1 tradeoff. Kind of questionable, as Flurrying disallows the 1.5x STR bonus for attacking two-handed, but a possible point of optimization.

Other than that, I suppose you could just size-stack your weapon (Heavy Greater Mighty Wallop Quarterstaff) or try to optimize archery + fast movement without the Scout's precision damage.

[Tvtyrant]

Cobra Strike Monk that uses Inhuman Reach and other reach extenders to trip masses of people through Whirlwind Strike? Basically aim to trip everyone in reach of your staff every single turn, and cry inside as this is your only trick. To get the strength up there, use a combination of grafts and magic items to really push it up.

[Manly Man]

Be a mind flayer and focus every single feat you can on grappling and improving your tentacle attacks. Get an insta-kill in three rounds, or if you can mess with a few things, get it in two. Not to mention that you'd get the extra bonuses for nomming on those wonderful brains to make the next one easier.

Given, it's not specific, but it's an idea.

[Tytalus]

Start out as a Lesser Aasimar with the Half-Minotuar template, buy off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) that +1 LA at Monk 3, then gain the Feral template, and buy that off at Monk 6.


Feral is an inherited template, you can not just "gain" it at level 3.

Also, note that the level buyoff rules don't cover level adjustments you gain later. The table explicitly refers to "Starting adjustment" and the relevant rule "Once the total of a character's class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1. " would mean that once you hit level 3, you can gain and buy off further +1 templates right away. If you plan to go that route, I'd check with the DM first.

[Gavinfoxx]

Use Wild Monk in Dragon Magazine #324. That gets you Wild Shape, so you can dump dex and str.

Use Holy Strike from Complete Champion.

Use Invisible Fist option from Exemplars of Evil.

Use Resistant Body from Planar Handbook. Choose something that lots of monsters use, like Fire or cold or whatever.

Consider trading Resist Nature's Lure with some things taken from the Planar Druid substitution level in Planar Handbook, or the Iron Constitution option in the Cityscape Web Enhancement, if the DM will let you take those.

Make sure to pick up some of the Wild Shape improving feats, like Dragon Wild Shape (Draconomicon), Exalted Wild Shape (Book of Exalted Deeds), Frozen Wild Shape (Frostburn), or even Assume Supernatural Ability (Savage Species), and Multiattack (SRD/Monster Manual).

For the times where you don't have Pounce or lots of attacks on a standard action (cough Cryohydra) via Wild Shape, you might want to consider the Lion Tribe Warrior feat from the book Shining South. This lets you do a full attack after a charge with one of your weapons -- perhaps Unarmed Strike or Claw or Bite? It depends what form you will be in where you don't have Pounce...

Use flaws to pick up more feats if you can. Use Skill Tricks from Complete Scoundrel, especially the mobility based ones, and the tumbling stuff. Max Tumble. Also pay attention to the extra Skill Tricks in Dragon Magazine #357 when considering your skill tricks. Get the movement based skill tricks. Also consider Snap Kick from Tome of Battle, or Superior Unarmed Strike from the same, or Improved Natural Attack from Monster Manual.

Remember that there are magic items that can help you speak in wild shape, and Frozen Wild Shape, Draconic Wild Shape, and Exalted Wild Shape get you talking forms. Do NOT take Vow of Poverty.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Feral is an inherited template, you can not just "gain" it at level 3.

Also, note that the level buyoff rules don't cover level adjustments you gain later. The table explicitly refers to "Starting adjustment" and the relevant rule "Once the total of a character's class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1. " would mean that once you hit level 3, you can gain and buy off further +1 templates right away. If you plan to go that route, I'd check with the DM first.

I could have swore Feral was inherited, but it will still work starting with Feral at 1st level. They just get bought off at Monk 6 and 9, then gain Saint, and buy those off at 15 and 18.

The "Starting Level Adjustment" header on the table refers to what level adjustment you're staring the buyoff process at, not what level adjustment you started play with. I think you missed the more relevant section a few paragraphs down:
"If the level adjustment is greater than +1, this process repeats until the creature's level adjustment reaches +0. Each time, use the creature's current level adjustment to determine the point at which the level adjustment can go down by 1. For example, a drow (level adjustment +2) may drop to level adjustment +1 after gaining her sixth class level, and then to +0 after gaining an additional three class levels."

Every time you've gained three times your current level adjustment in class levels, you can reduce it by one.

[Psyren]

PF Zen Archer

/thread

Or Qinggong Sensei/Hungry Ghost.

(Hey, OP didn't specify 3.5 :smallwink:)

[Kelb_Panthera]

Feral is an inherited template, you can not just "gain" it at level 3.

Also, note that the level buyoff rules don't cover level adjustments you gain later. The table explicitly refers to "Starting adjustment" and the relevant rule "Once the total of a character's class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1. " would mean that once you hit level 3, you can gain and buy off further +1 templates right away. If you plan to go that route, I'd check with the DM first.
You actually can gain inherited templates after character creation. SS has several ways to handle it in the back of the book and it's the book feral is in, so....

Or Qinggong Sensei/Hungry Ghost.

(Hey, OP didn't specify 3.5 :smallwink:)

I assure you, he meant to. :smallwink:

and..... fixed.