Advice on Adjudicating Some Spells (and Items)

[Deth Muncher]

Hey all. In tonight's session, I ran into some issues with how to adjudicate the effects of a few spells, and I was hoping you guys could help me out. However, since I'm trying to be as fair to my players as possible, if you've got an actual rules quote, please cite it, and if it's an opinion, please mark it as such.

The first spell that gave us trouble was Unliving Weapon, a spell in the Book of Vile Darkness. Effectively, it makes an undead a(n un)living bomb, set to explode either at the slightest touch, or after a certain amount of time. The problem is, this doesn't seem to allow a save or Spell Resistance. The brief description text says it does, but that's in the target area - as in, the undead receiving the spell gets to apply its own spell resistance or saves, but not whoever gets caught in the blast. This left a significant distaste in peoples' mouths, especially when they usually have Evasion, to jump away from junk like that.

Next up, Slipsand, in Sandstorm. This has basically become an instant kill, because none of us seem to get exactly how it works. I mean, the basic principle is simple - it transmutes several cubic feet of sand into slipsand, which is basically quicksand on crack. So much so, that it says it's basically impossible to move through it because you can't seem to get purchase. What's more, is that you can do it under someone's feet, and they instantly get sucked down to the bottom. I was trying to figure out ways around this, though - Would a Freedom of Movement let you swim in the slipsand, even though slipsand explicitly says you can't swim in it? Sounds like a movement hampering thing to me, but the PC made the somewhat logical argument that slipsand doesn't restrict your movement - it actually makes the little bubble kind of like moving in outer space, as you literally just can't get enough friction to move. Likewise, what else could you do to get out? If you have Fly, could you just fly out? If you managed to get to the edge of the slipsand and thus encountered real sand, could you then dig your way up, slowly but surely (assuming you didn't suffocate first)? If you had something that could logically turn sand into glass (a fire spell that specifies melting things, like Fireball, or a lightning spell, since lightning turns sand into glass in real life, or a spell that specifies something like this like Vitrify), could you harden the shapesand around you to climb out?

Lastly, there's the Starmantle Cloak, from the Book of Exalted Deeds. This is coming into argument a lot - because it specifies that nonmagical weapons and ammunition poof away if they hit the cloak, and magical weapons and ammunition allow a save for half damage. But what about lasers or flamers, from the advanced part of the DMG? (Yes, this is actually something pertinent, not just speculation.) It's shooting energy, not actual ammunition. Likewise, what about an effect like the hadouken created from the Tome of Battle maneuver Fan the Flames? It's not magic, but it's certainly not NOT magic. How about natural weapons? If you bite someone with a Starmantle Cloak, do your teeth poof?

I will appreciate your input, though I'm willing to bet this will cause as much discussion here as it did at my table.

[Medic!]

On the Unliving Weapon - Reading the entry it looks like the thing to do would be to hit every undead your party comes into contact with with at least one point of ranged damage before anyone gets within 10 feet of it.

On Slipsand - Since the entry says you hold your breath then suffocate, you have a lot of time...I don't see any reason why someone couldn't just walk along the bottom of the slipsand patch since it offers no resistance, then climb the side as you said. A rope or 10ft pole, etc would easily pass through it for rescue attempts as well.

On Starmantle - With the entry specifying weapons, I would personally rule that it means manufactured weapons, not natural attacks. In the specific instance of lasers and flamers: I've always considered those to simply be energy, i.e. getting hit with a flamer is no different than walking through a bonfire, and Starmantle would offer no protection. Fire is just fire, lasers are beams of energy, not missles. Even treated as a ray and a burning hands spell, lasers and flamers should ignore Starmantle.

[killianh]

Unliving weapon--looks like the "fool you once" type of spell. If you're party goes against a necromancer that uses that tactic and they don't catch on soon to do a double check then that falls on the party for the damage they will be taking.

Slipsand--magical flying would get them out, as would wings if they are still above the ground. there are plenty of counters by the time a party is casting 4th level spells.

Star mantle--fire is not ammunition or a weapon, it is fire. For the laser that comes down to the DM deciding if the energy beam from a laser is a form of ammunition. Normally its a beam rather than actual ammunition, but in a game where future weapons are being used its up to the DM. teeth, claws, feet, and everything else is a body part first, weapon second. Otherwise this would be an amputee-generating spell.

[Cespenar]

Unliving Weapon: Make it Reflex half and SR: No, which is in my opinion pretty reasonable.

For the next two, what Medic! says make sense, at least to me.

[Deth Muncher]

The whole "fire is fire, and lasers are lasers, so they don't get affected by the Starmantle Cloak" ruling is how I've been doing so far, so I don't feel too bad about that.

With the slipsand thing, I'm glad you guys seem to agree that magic flight is a good way to get around it. I might also say that if the trapped individual can use a weapon as a walking stick, they could get to the edge of the slipsand and start trying to dig their way into real sand, thus letting them dig their way out. Wouldn't work without some decent Strength score though, probably. Would it be unfair of me to allow a DC15 reflex save to jump out of the area with the slipsand in it if it gets cast under someone? It's the same as someone who's trying to jump but falls just shy. It should probably only work for someone next to the edge though, or maybe treat the save as a Jump check instead to see if they can even go far enough to get out.

Unliving Weapon, though, makes me wonder. My gut instinct is to say "Yeah, the Reflex Half, SR:No" option makes sense...but 3/4 players have Evasion, so at that point, why even bother with it as a tactic, since they're usually going to pass the save. Now, if I said it only allowed SR, it means that one or two players might have an answer to it (or would very soon start beseeching the caster to learn the spell Spell Resistance), but that almost feels TOO devilish.

[Cespenar]

Unliving Weapon, though, makes me wonder. My gut instinct is to say "Yeah, the Reflex Half, SR:No" option makes sense...but 3/4 players have Evasion, so at that point, why even bother with it as a tactic, since they're usually going to pass the save. Now, if I said it only allowed SR, it means that one or two players might have an answer to it (or would very soon start beseeching the caster to learn the spell Spell Resistance), but that almost feels TOO devilish.

Even if they have Evasion, a low roll threatens to do some damage, so it's not exactly a "lol, ignore" situation. Moreover, it would be annoying and unfair to ignore some tactics completely just because your players have a good defense against it. Just don't make it your only tactic. Throw some in between other stuff.

[Deth Muncher]

Even if they have Evasion, a low roll threatens to do some damage, so it's not exactly a "lol, ignore" situation. Moreover, it would be annoying and unfair to ignore some tactics completely just because your players have a good defense against it. Just don't make it your only tactic. Throw some in between other stuff.

That's totally fair, actually. One of the guys was pretty miffed about the explosion not allowing a saving throw, but he also has spell resistance, which is why I was leaning towards the SR only option, but having it be Reflex half is probably fair to the group in general. Also, you're right - everyone rolls a 1 sometime.

[Medic!]

I'd model it after explosive runes. Explosive Runes says "close enough to read = no save, other creatures within 10ft reflex for half"

So I'd go with adjacent no save, 10ft but not adjacent gets a reflex for half.

Or switch it up and make it a Fortitude for half for withstanding the blast with sheer moxy.

[TuggyNE]

Or switch it up and make it a Fortitude for half for withstanding the blast with sheer moxy.

You could even do a Will save, as is customary for positive/negative energy.

[Rejakor]

There's an AoE of negative energy that gives a reflex save in Spell Compendium, though, so negative energy is still combat rollable.

If a PC has a good defense, I like to throw stuff that just splatters against that defense at them for reasons both of versimilitude and fairness. Making every enemy have mindsight just cause the rogue took Darkstalker is lame, let the rogue enjoy his sneakertasticness, he had to take a feat and be a rogue so eh.

I'd allow a save for slipsand being used in combat, and I can't see a difference between a laser and a scorching ray, so. If you're talking RAW on bites, it would depend on the text I think, but it might make teeth go poof. If we're talking RAI/how it should work, i'd say teeth should bounce off, but energy damage, regardless of source, should stick. So if you whack a starmantle cloak with a torch, they take 1d6 fire damage, but the torch goes poof, cause it's nonmagical.

You could also read it as ANY nonmagical 'weapon' i.e. anything that does damage goes poof, so the laser beam goes poof, and the missiles go poof, and the antimatter goes poof, and the oil thrown at the thing goes poof etc, i.e. it's not the fire of burning hands that gets through, it's the MAGIC. That also means that Orb of Fire wouldn't get through, as it is not magical, it is nonmagical plasma pushed through a planar hole at speed BY magic. I wouldn't, though. Cause that would get annoying.

[GenghisDon]

Hey all. In tonight's session, I ran into some issues with how to adjudicate the effects of a few spells, and I was hoping you guys could help me out. However, since I'm trying to be as fair to my players as possible, if you've got an actual rules quote, please cite it, and if it's an opinion, please mark it as such.

The first spell that gave us trouble was Unliving Weapon, a spell in the Book of Vile Darkness. Effectively, it makes an undead a(n un)living bomb, set to explode either at the slightest touch, or after a certain amount of time. The problem is, this doesn't seem to allow a save or Spell Resistance. The brief description text says it does, but that's in the target area - as in, the undead receiving the spell gets to apply its own spell resistance or saves, but not whoever gets caught in the blast. This left a significant distaste in peoples' mouths, especially when they usually have Evasion, to jump away from junk like that.

Give the boom! a reflex save for half. SR ought work fine.


Next up, Slipsand, in Sandstorm. This has basically become an instant kill, because none of us seem to get exactly how it works. I mean, the basic principle is simple - it transmutes several cubic feet of sand into slipsand, which is basically quicksand on crack. So much so, that it says it's basically impossible to move through it because you can't seem to get purchase. What's more, is that you can do it under someone's feet, and they instantly get sucked down to the bottom. I was trying to figure out ways around this, though - Would a Freedom of Movement let you swim in the slipsand, even though slipsand explicitly says you can't swim in it? Sounds like a movement hampering thing to me, but the PC made the somewhat logical argument that slipsand doesn't restrict your movement - it actually makes the little bubble kind of like moving in outer space, as you literally just can't get enough friction to move. Likewise, what else could you do to get out? If you have Fly, could you just fly out? If you managed to get to the edge of the slipsand and thus encountered real sand, could you then dig your way up, slowly but surely (assuming you didn't suffocate first)? If you had something that could logically turn sand into glass (a fire spell that specifies melting things, like Fireball, or a lightning spell, since lightning turns sand into glass in real life, or a spell that specifies something like this like Vitrify), could you harden the shapesand around you to climb out?

Fly or levitate out. Dimension door, ect too. Freedom of movement ought just sink you to the bottom, but one could just move to the edge of the AOE freely (blinded & holding breath, eventually to suffocate if they stay too long) & attempt to climb out. Someone else could possibly use telekinesis or simular as well, although that would usually have to be done before the character sinks out of sight. I'd let a passwall make a hole of it's AOE in the sand, and one could summon an earth elemental or other burrower/stone phaser to fetch a lost character or item. Enough fire or lightning (for the heat) could indeed make some glass, although I don't know exactly how helpful that would be, potentially damaging the character sinking (but arresting the sinking) or else just making a solid barrier over them to keep them under (worse). Stoneshape is another potential aid, as might a creation spell that made a pole, crossbrace or ladder, ect. A lowly animate rope might well save the character. Lots of ways one could get saved, although they all seem to require magic off the top of my head.


Lastly, there's the Starmantle Cloak, from the Book of Exalted Deeds. This is coming into argument a lot - because it specifies that nonmagical weapons and ammunition poof away if they hit the cloak, and magical weapons and ammunition allow a save for half damage. But what about lasers or flamers, from the advanced part of the DMG? (Yes, this is actually something pertinent, not just speculation.) It's shooting energy, not actual ammunition. Likewise, what about an effect like the hadouken created from the Tome of Battle maneuver Fan the Flames? It's not magic, but it's certainly not NOT magic. How about natural weapons? If you bite someone with a Starmantle Cloak, do your teeth poof?

Energy damage is energy damage. Lasers, flame throwers, ect, all sound like they breach the spell. Natural weapons would also act completely as normal (full damage), the starmantle cloak does nothing to them. One could argue that false teeth would be a "weapon" perhaps. Jaws, from the old Bond flicks might loose his chompers. That's about it & pretty sketchy. Fan the Flames I have no idea...TOB sounded good, but upon briefly looking at it, completely lost my attention.


I will appreciate your input, though I'm willing to bet this will cause as much discussion here as it did at my table.

Sure

[Kelb_Panthera]

The ball of fire created by fan the flames, and indeed most of the desert wind discipline, is made up of supernatural energy. It's not a weapon, it's a supernatural effect.

[Deth Muncher]

Woo buddy! I see what happens when I go away for the weekend, everyone decides to comment on my things.

So, the general consensus from everyone seems to be:
-the Fan the Flames hadouken and the laser pistols are energy, and should pierce the Starmantle Cloak's defenses.

-Various teleportation or (pseudo)flight spells are good ways to escape slipsand, or crawling along the bottom of the effect (blind and holding their breath until possibly dying of asphyxiation) to try to reach the edge to climb out, and a Reflex save to avoid probably isn't beyond the realms of reason if used in combat

-The Unliving Weapon spell should probably give a save of some flavor. Cases have been made for any one of the saves, but since there's a Spell Compendium spell that seems to be similar and allow a Reflex save, I think I'll end up doing that.

I appreciate the help, folks. Hopefully, this'll help mend some of the sore feelings from last session when we play this week.

[Slipperychicken]

Starmantle Cloak: The cloak asks "Is this a weapon attack", and then "Is this weapon attack nonmagical?". If lasers and flamethrowers are indeed nonmagical weapon attacks (if they function in an AMF, require an attack roll, and originate from a weapon), then the wearer is impervious.