Noob needs help with an unarmed character. 3.5e

[Vorandril]

So here's the tl;dr version off the bat, in a nice bulleted list.

*Character is starting at level 3
*Character must be human
*Character cannot be ebil

The Goal:
*Specializes in Unarmed Attacks
*Effective in Medium Armor
*Mobile
*Skill points are happy

Extra things that would be nice:
*Sneak attack! (I'm aware that I could use the Sneak Attack Fighter option. But unsure if the loss of the feats is worth it)
*Effective at tripping with whips would be kinda cool.

I'm looking for help to get this 3.5ed. character set up in some sort of viable manner. Just about everything is allowed except the book that has the "stances" and such.

[Aharon]

Actually, you do want a long version if you hope for any constructive feedback. Given your current input, the most likely answer will be "Try your DM to allow Swordsage." It's from the book with stances and such, but the best class to fulfill your criteria.

Alternatively, Monk 2/Barbarian 1. Or Monk 3, going for Monk 6/something else.

[Krazzman]

So here's the tl;dr version off the bat, in a nice bulleted list.

*Character is starting at level 3
*Character must be human
*Character cannot be ebil

The Goal:
*Specializes in Unarmed Attacks
*Effective in Medium Armor
*Mobile
*Skill points are happy

Extra things that would be nice:
*Sneak attack! (I'm aware that I could use the Sneak Attack Fighter option. But unsure if the loss of the feats is worth it)
*Effective at tripping with whips would be kinda cool.

I'm looking for help to get this 3.5ed. character set up in some sort of viable manner. Just about everything is allowed except the book that has the "stances" and such.

Tome of Battle banned? Well then... I would normally advice you to read the monk handbook since unarmed swordsage builds are out.

Feats "worth" noting: Superior Unarmed Strike, Vexing Blow(?, let's you treat your unarmed strikes as blodgeoing, slashing, piercing), Improved Natural Attack: Unarmed Strike.
These feats raise your damagedice/let you ignore certain dmg reductions.
2 Levels of Monk should be the start, afterwards go for Tashalatora (please google that yourself).

Hope this helps so far

EDIT:
Should have asked that at the beginning:
What is the "powerlevel"? Why is ToB not allowed? And what do you really want and how powerful do you want it to get later?

[Jarian]

Psychic Warrior, or PsyWar Tashalatora depending on the optimization of your group. Use your powers to smack things harder.

Medium armor, mobility, good unarmed damage, ability to do other things when punching doesn't work. Should perfectly fill your short list of requirements. Psychic Warriors even get a psychic whip power, so there's that too.

[killianh]

how about barbarian4/psi-warrior2/warmind5/bearwarrior5/warshaper2/fistoftheforest2?

[Vorandril]

While I look up the Tashalatora and see if I have the PDF with Psi-Warrior-

Wouldn't rolling monk at pretty much any point get made null and void by wearing armor?

[Jarian]

While I look up the Tashalatora and see if I have the PDF with Psi-Warrior-

Everythig from the XPH is included in the SRD. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm)


Wouldn't rolling monk at pretty much any point get made null and void by wearing armor?

Yes. Psychic Warriors can manifest Inertial Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/inertialArmor.htm) if you wish to play a Tashalatora build though, so the difference is minor.

[Krazzman]

While I look up the Tashalatora and see if I have the PDF with Psi-Warrior-

Wouldn't rolling monk at pretty much any point get made null and void by wearing armor?

Not really, as a monk you lose your AC-bonus and your Fast Moving when wearing armor.
The advantage is a d6 damagedice and 2 "free" feats on the first two levels. I advice you to look up the variants of monks in the Unearthed Arcana and... I think it was Dungeonscape and PHB2. To change feats, change slow fall and change flurry of blows, if you take levels of monk.

[Vorandril]

Sweet, thanks guys!
I had no idea about that Tashalatora feat. I'll give some of this a browse and see which might fit the campaign better between the Psychic Warrior or the Ardent. =)

I'll post it up once I know which I'm doing.

The stats on this bugger turned out well too.
18, 17, 17, 15, 13, 13

[Diovid]

If dragon magazine is allowed, take a look at the Fighter variant called Pugilist in dragon magazine #310. It gives up shields and martial weapons, trades a few skills and gives some unarmed abilities.

[Mystral]

Just play a barbarian and convince your dm to let you switch his weapon proficiencies for the unarmed strike progression of the monk, and you're good to go.

For extra bonus, convince him to let you use power attack like you were wielding a 2-handed weapon. After all, you could swing a greatsword instead of your swords, anyway, so you don't exactly gain anything.

Then, build an ubercharger and rock face.

[Eldariel]

Here's my Fighter 20 Monk (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=163711); Superior Unarmed Strike gives Unarmed Strike progression to any character. Of course, it's unfortunately in Tome of Battle, the book with stances and stuff, but it's just a feat so your DM might still allow it.

Anyways, my point is that you can replicate most of the Monk-stuff with feats. Barbarian/Fist of the Forests would probably be interesting to you. If you wear medium armor you won't benefit of the Armor-bonus but you still get all the other goodies. Monk 2 is fine too, though beyond that is a waste of course.

[Downysole]

A shapeshift druid would also rock this category except for the weaker BAB progression.

[Answerer]

Your DM has banned the single best book for making this happen. You might consider trying to reason with him. Because not only is it the single best book for your character type, it's the single best book WotC ever wrote for 3.5.

It's flexible, it's incredibly well balanced, both internally and compared to the expectations derived from the challenges that characters are expected to overcome at various levels, and it actually allows martial characters to work. Which no other book can claim.

I seriously would not play a game under a DM who didn't allow that book for any reason other than him not having it. And if that were the case, I'd very seriously consider buying it for him just so his games can be improved by its inclusion.

Even if I don't personally care to use anything in the book. Because any DM who bans it while knowing what's in it, is a DM I don't want to play for; it indicates, to me, that he either does not understand the problems inherent in 3.5, or he does not care and thinks martial characters should suck. And that's not a game I want to play.

It really makes that big a difference.


All that said, it sounds to me like you ought to be making good use of Psychic Warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm). They get armor proficiencies, bonus feats for tripping and unarmed strikes, and most importantly, they get things like Expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm) (unarmed strike damage buff, plus the ever-critical Reach), Hustle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hustle.htm) (mobility), and Lion's Charge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psionicLionsCharge.htm) (more mobility).

I think Monk levels are a trap here. If you take them, no more than 1, I think. Flurry of Blows, AC Bonus, and Evasion all go away when you don armor. Improved Unarmed Strike + the slight damage boost aren't really worth a level, IMO; the second level is just right out. Having Monk 2 is only justifiable if you're going for the Passive Way (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#passiveWay) for Imp. Trip without Int 13.

However, there is a good way to combine these: Secrets of Sarlona, which is not the book that your DM naively (to give him the benefit of the doubt) banned, has a feat called Tashalatora, which allows any one Psionic class to advance Monk features. Apply that to the Psychic Warrior, and you get Unarmed Strike progression just for being a Psychic Warrior. Technically, you don't even need Monk levels, just two feats (Tashalatora requires Monastic Training, which is in Eberron Campaign Setting).


So my recommendations are these: first, try to get Tome of Battle unbanned. It will make your entire game better. If that fails, go for Tashalatora on a Psychic Warrior.

[Eldariel]

I think Monk levels are a trap here. If you take them, no more than 1, I think. Flurry of Blows, AC Bonus, and Evasion all go away when you don armor. Improved Unarmed Strike + the slight damage boost aren't really worth a level, IMO; the second level is just right out. Having Monk 2 is only justifiable if you're going for the Passive Way (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#passiveWay) for Imp. Trip without Int 13.

You can mix and match the styles actually. You can get Imp. Trip without Int 13 or Combat Expertise this way, saving another feat. That said, if wearing a non-Inertial Armor it'll still be a bit of a pain.

[Answerer]

Yeah, Inertial Armor is a good call. And being able to mix'n'match is very interesting. That can get you Monastic Training as a Bonus Feat, so Tashalatora literally only costs you one feat. That's probably the best you're going to do.

Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 18, taking Monastic Training as first Monk bonus feat and Imp. Trip as second Monk bonus feat. Then Tashalatora as your 3rd-level feat.

For skill points, you could always go with Nymph's Kiss (Book of Exalted Deeds). You get a bonus on all Cha-related checks, an extra skill point per level, and your girlfriend is (or was, at least) apparently a total nymph. (that was awful on more than one level and I feel bad for doing it, but I'm also not removing it unless someone asks)

Between Human and Nymph's Kiss, you're looking at 6+Int skill points for your Monk levels, and 4+Int skill points for your Psychic Warrior levels. Sadly, Wizards really screwed martial types on skill points; even the "broadly-trained" Monk gets only 4+Int by default. This is stupid and annoying (no one who isn't an Int-based full-caster deserves 2+Int skill points), but it is what it is. It's not really worth it to go too far out of your way for more; skills are generally not that powerful, and while useful at times, they're not very much so.

[Downysole]

The stats on this bugger turned out well too.
18, 17, 17, 15, 13, 13

Back to the Shifter Druid concept (PHB2), you could stat as follows
13, 13, 18(or 17), 15, 17(or18), and 17. That would give you strong stats across the board when shaped and retain your good hps in either form as well.

Spells like animalistic fury, magic fang, and good shapes can help out a lot. Mobility very high. Armor can be wilding-clasped or you can have barding put on you once you shape. Also, bearskin and wild armor among other enhancement bonuses for later in your career when you can afford them.

Also, bites are blud, piercing, and slashing damage. You don't need a feat for that.

[Answerer]

DM bans Tome of Battle and has rolled stats. Yeah, not a chance in hell I'd play with this guy.


Anyway, those rolls are incredible, which is good because you're playing (assuming we're talking the Tashalatora Psychic Warrior) one of the most MAD (multiple ability dependent) classes in the game.

You probably want this:

Str 18
Dex 15
Con 17
Int 13
Wis 17
Cha 13

You can make a decent argument for swapping Dex and Wis.


Actually, since you have Int 13, Monk 2 is looking rather weaker. Sure, you still have to get Combat Expertise – but Psychic Warriors do get Bonus Feats. The advantage there is you get your powers sooner, you get more power points, etc. etc.

As a Human, you could even go Psychic Warrior 20:
Monastic Training [Psychic Warrior] (Human bonus feat)
Tashalatora (1st-level feat)
Combat Expertise (Psychic Warrior 1 bonus feat)
Imp. Trip (Psychic Warrior 2 bonus feat)

By level 2, you've already hit your major design goals, and you're going to scale really well. That's really solid.

[Gavinfoxx]

Play a Barbarian.

No, really; with the right Alternative Class Features and items, Barbarians make great Unarmed, Armored combatants:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=408878

[Vorandril]

---who didn't allow that book for any reason other than him not having it.

Ding, we have a winner. =P

So here is my question: Aside from the bonus feat at level 1 is there much reason to take Monk at all in regards to Tashalatora?

[Vorandril]

---who didn't allow that book for any reason other than him not having it.

Ding, we have a winner. =P

So here is my question: Aside from the bonus feat at level 1 is there much reason to take Monk at all in regards to Tashalatora?

[Answerer]

Ding, we have a winner. =P
He should get it, it's the best book WotC ever printed for 3.5 with absolutely no caveats or exceptions.


So here is my question: Aside from the bonus feat at level 1 is there much reason to take Monk at all in regards to Tashalatora?
"Reason"? Strictly speaking, yes. Tashalatora does not advance things like Slow Fall, Still Mind, Purity of Body, etc.

But a good reason? No. Those class features are awful. Tashalatora advances everything good that the Monk gets, excepting only the Bonus Feats and Evasion. You're getting Bonus Feats from Psychic Warrior anyway (from a wider list but without the potential of skipping prereqs), and Evasion doesn't work with Medium (or heavier) armor.

For you, the Monk does get more skill points. But 2 more skill points (or even 8 more skill points since you're taking it at 1st) is simply not even remotely worth a level. If you're dipping for skills, it should be Factotum for 6+Int and all skills trained, or Scout or Rogue or something for the 8+Int skill points. I do not recommend any of the above for this character, though; skill points just aren't worth it most of the time, and since you'll only have 2+Int skill points after 1st, it won't even really help you be good with skills.


Also, for the record, there's vanishingly little reason to actually use Medium armor. 90% of characters will use a Chain Shirt or Full Plate, usually in either Mithral or Adamantine. Mithral Breastplates come up occasionally as the best Light Armor in the PHB. Druids do something with Darkwood or Dragonhide or something. But other than that? The other options for armor are used very rarely.

[Vorandril]

The primary reason for the Medium Armor thing is that we're doing a bit of shennanigans using 3.5 characters in a modern settig, so we're using the equipment lists from D20 Modern.

To that end I've also been perusing the wonders of the internetz to find a conversion.
Closest i've gotten is that 1gp = $20 = 4 Wealth

[crazyhedgewizrd]

Heres some questions, What are the other gamers playing and what tone is the game? By knowing these answers you can get better suggestions.

If its low op you could get away with a monk/rogue and that fits most of what you want.

[Devmaar]

Ding, we have a winner. =P

So here is my question: Aside from the bonus feat at level 1 is there much reason to take Monk at all in regards to Tashalatora?

The bonus feat at level 2?

[Vorandril]

Well, Tashalatora was vetoed under the premise of;


Way I see it. You have all the advantages of a 19th level Ardent, while still having half the advantages of a 19th level Monk. So at level 20, you have the capabilities of a 27th level character.

So at this point I'm pondering just going Psi Warrior or Ardent and picking up the Unarmed Combat feats and possibly grabbing up some of the Natural Weapon feats from the Monster Manual or Savage Species.

What I should say is this to clarify what I'm going for;


*Character is starting at level 3
*Character must be human
*Character cannot be ebil

The Goal:
*Specializes in Unarmed Attacks
*Effective in Medium or Heavy Armor
*Mobile
*Skill points are happy

Extra things that would be nice:
*Sneak attack! (I'm aware that I could use the Sneak Attack Fighter option. But unsure if the loss of the feats is worth it)
*Effective at tripping with whips would be kinda cool.

In the end this character is going to be wearing a sort of Tactical Armor suit, and between using their fists and magical (or Psionic) abilities should be decent at being both a melee brawler and a utility character. This camaign is just as much about story as it is about the combat. So to that end there should be some more explaination about said story.

The gam is set in the modern day, primarily around London. The Deities of the D&D pantheon have been sleeping for a few thousand years, but to this day there are still practitioners of their faiths (Albiet few). Magic is only even still part of the world because of these secret societies and the stongest spellcasters in the world are at most 3rd level since divine casters have no waking deities to have their power granted from and the Arcane lack the available resources of a magical world to draw their own power higher.

All of this is going to begin changing though, because one deity is about to wake. And not one that anyone would have wanted to have wake up either. So now the fecal matter has hit the proverbial fan and everyone has tofigure out what it is they're going to do. Wake the deity they've revered? Fight the minions of this deity? Both? What can you do when one day a lightning strike falls in the middle of london and a Beholder cackles as it begins opening its eyes?


My character's concept? He is a punisher. When someone commits a crime of soul or of law and garners his attention, his fist is swift and it is without mercy.

Mechanically I'm looking for a character who wades into combat with his fists, busting some skulls and giving as good as he gets. But I want more than just a Fighter. Having abilities that allow for stealth, teleportation, crowd controls. Things of that sort rather than just abilities that buff how hard can punch.

Sorry I waited so long in getting an more in depth description up but I'd been hopin the Tashalatora Ardent could work out.

Any help would be fantastic ladies and gentlemen.

[Krazzman]

I see what you wrote there.

I advice you to look at the Claw-lock.

You take 3 Levels of warlock, take the Feat Eldritch Claws and you are set.
It is probably excactly what you wanted. You have and character that is possible to take up light armor from the start, with 2 feats medium and can rip peoples faces of. Additionally you can do limited teleport later and going invisible, flying and so on.

On my current Warlock I'm playing I have taken:
Invocations: See the Unseen (Darkvision+See Invisible), Entropic Warding (20% miss chance against range + scentblocker), Eldritch Spear and Flee the Scene (Dimension Door at limited Range with a major Image of yourself left at the place you dimension doored from).
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Quicken SLA and Empower SLA.

But for the Clawlock:
Stats STR 18 DEX 17 CON 17 The other 3 are up to you, I found a 16 in Charisma is pretty sweet for UMD on a Warlock.
Feats: Human: Up to you, 1st up to you, 3rd: Eldritch Claws (Dragon Magazine)
Invocations of Interest: See the Unseen, Entropic Warding, Swimming the Styx, Spider Climb. That are the Invocations I at least thought about taking.

Hope this helps.

[Vorandril]

Krazzman, you are indeed a glorious font of helpful!

How well does Warlock multiclass with Ardent? The Time and Freedom Mantles are seductive temptresses indeed.

More imporantly, "UMD"?

[Man on Fire]

Some options are Monk/Psionic Warrior with that feats that stacks their levels whatever it's name was, or much simpler Monk who'll later prestige into Psionic Fist. In fact, ask your DM what he thinks about following use of powers - you use metamorphosis to turn into larger creature and then use Expansion. Rules are vague about if changing form counts to changing size or changes your base size. If DM says that you get unarmed strike as enlarged creature you turned into, build Ultimate Monk (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Ultimate_Monk) (or his SRD only cousin (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Ultimate_Monk_(DnD_Optimized_Character_Build)/SRD_Only_Progression)). If no, aks if he will allow those homebrew powers (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Ultimate_Monk_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)/Rebalancing_the_Ultimate_Monk#Example:_Changes_to_ the_Ultimate_Monk.27s_Unarmed_Strike), which were made to make Ultimate Monk weaker, so you won't kick so many butts as no-homebrew guy, but still let you be badass.

[Krazzman]

Well how can i phrase that one...

It depends. The Warlock has a fixed Eldritch Blast and Invocation gain progression. Therefore most "good" warlocks builds are 1 to 20 builds or take warlock just as a dip for 2 24h buffs.

I don't know the ardent, I never could play with psionics as my Old group was pretty stiff about new stuff and the new one only has the complete psionics and me as Warlock.

To reach what you want I would advice taking the first 3 levels of warlock so you have your "superpunch" of 2d6. As I stated, read the guide to melee warlocks, it's here on this board. There is a way to get your claw damage to your unarmed strikes.
If you have your third level you can begin to ask yourself, does the ardent give me something the warlock does not? Or does not yet? etc.

It's your character and your DM you have to explain. Therefore reading thorugh it is better than being told do this take this level then take this feat and that.

Hope this helps further

[Answerer]

"All the advantages of a 19th level Monk" are almost meaningless. You have a half-decent weapon (you could have bought a better one, and you're still going to have to spend a lot of money on a Necklace of Natural Attacks so it doesn't even save you much money), and neither Flurry nor the AC bonus are going to work if you have armor (and armor's generally better than the AC bonus, and Flurry's generally not really worth using).

So basically, while your DM's comment is correct, it's also meaningless because what you're getting isn't particularly powerful at the cost of two feats. It's just that the Monk class is that weak.

I once again maintain that your DM does not know as much about 3.5 as he thinks he does.


I'd seriously recommend just going Psychic Warrior (or Ardent) and taking Improved Unarmed Strike. You'll be almost as good as you were with Tashalatora anyway. Grab Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike), use Expansion, and your damage with the Unarmed Strike won't be much worse.

If nothing else, it'll go to show just how weak the Monk class is. I think your DM could use to learn this.

[Vorandril]

Yeah, looking at it I don't think the Dimension Hop is good enough to warrant getting into Ardent. The Bonus movement would be nice from the Freedom Mantle but still. I shall now commence the sacrifices to the almighty Google, that it might show me the way to make my character fast hitting, and fast moving.

[morkendi]

You could take a few levels rouge for skills, the higher lvl psy warrior stuff is ok, but the lower lvl powers are what you use the most. Practiced manifester will make up for the dip as far as manifester levels. Changeling would be a good race if allowed in this setting.

[Averis Vol]

I'm going to deviate a bit from ardent and psi-war and suggest a monk 2\cleric 3\ Sacred fist 10\Cleric +2\FoTF 3. it nets you lot of spell casting and works a bit better thematically if you choose St. Cuthbert as your patron diety; seeing as your all about the street justice.

For stats:

Str 17
Dex 15
Con 17
Int 13
Wis 18
Cha 13

at level 4 increase strength to 18. then just go with a simple persistomancy build with all your cleric fixin's (Divine power, Righteous might, Shield of faith, etc, etc.)

for feats:
Human-combat casting
Lvl 1-Improved Natural attack (Unarmed strike)
monk 1-Stunning fist
Monk 2-Combat reflexes
Lvl 3-Hammer fists

Now you have a two handed weapon and can get a 2:1 return for PA along with smashing people in the face with inflict spells along with your unarmed strike. for extra giggles take leap attack.

Also, make sure you take the invisible fist variant from exemplars of evil to get invisibility for 1round\ 3 rounds and at 8th level blink for wis mod rounds\ 3 rounds. if you can squeeze it in get iron will alertness and combat expertise to pick up 1 level in shiba protector for wis to attack and damage.