You got bit by what?!? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

GutterFace

2012-07-25, 05:46 AM

So our party was out exploring the local wilds for a magical key.....ooooooh.

anyways we thought it was a run of the mill side adventure for some more loot.

and our fighter got bit by a wolf that ended up being a lycanthrope.

NOW. we are all good aligned pc's. here are my questions....

1) will his alignment change as we changes forms. (for the first time or any time after?)

2) is it possible for him to control this change, i mean, not change and go wild on the townsfolk

3) we agreed that the first time he changes we can tie him up. and i can cast Hold person on him. will this effect carry over into his transformed state?

Since he is a fighter, he wants to use this to his advantage. so we need to find a way or a ruling that would let him be able to control his wolf form.

thoughts?

Studoku

2012-07-25, 05:53 AM

Lycanthropy As An Affliction
When a character contracts lycanthropy through a lycanthrope’s bite (see above), no symptoms appear until the first night of the next full moon. On that night, the afflicted character involuntarily assumes animal form and forgets his or her own identity, temporarily becoming an NPC. The character remains in animal form, assuming the appropriate alignment, until the next dawn.

The character’s actions during this first episode are dictated by the alignment of its animal form. The character remembers nothing about the entire episode (or subsequent episodes) unless he succeeds on a DC 15 Wisdom check, in which case he becomes aware of his lycanthropic condition.

Thereafter, the character is subject to involuntary transformation under the full moon and whenever damaged in combat. He or she feels an overwhelming rage building up and must succeed on a Control Shape check (see below) to resist changing into animal form. Any player character not yet aware of his or her lycanthropic condition temporarily becomes an NPC during an involuntary change, and acts according to the alignment of his or her animal form.

A character with awareness of his condition retains his identity and does not lose control of his actions if he changes. However, each time he changes to his animal form, he must make a Will save (DC 15 + number of times he has been in animal form) or permanently assume the alignment of his animal form in all shapes.

Once a character becomes aware of his affliction, he can now voluntarily attempt to change to animal or hybrid form, using the appropriate Control Shape check DC. An attempt is a standard action and can be made each round. Any voluntary change to animal or hybrid form immediately and permanently changes the character’s alignment to that of the appropriate lycanthrope.

Changing Form
Changing form is a standard action. If the change is involuntary, the character performs the change on his next turn following the triggering event. An afflicted character who is not aware of his condition remains in animal form until the next dawn. An afflicted character who is aware of his or her condition (see above) can try to resume humanoid form following a change (voluntary or involuntary) with a Control Shape check, but if he fails his check, he remains in animal (or hybrid) form until the following dawn.

That should answer questions 1 & 2. I'm not sure about 3.

kardar233

2012-07-25, 05:59 AM

Hold Person will apply as he changes forms, as his Type stays as Humanoid (Shapechanger).

Anarion

2012-07-25, 06:07 AM

If he really likes the whole concept, you could ask your DM to waive the automatic alignment change to evil and instead ask if he can simply role-play it as giving him a shorter temper and a more feral personality that he needs to keep in check.

Note that control shape works okay normally, but he's still going to get stuck in the full moon for a while, and if he's bad at wisdom checks it might be quite a long time before he's even aware during his transformations.

smuchmuch

2012-07-25, 06:07 AM

Any voluntary change to animal or hybrid form immediately and permanently changes the character’s alignment to that of the appropriate lycanthrope.

Woah, that is one pretty bull... rule.
"Nope, dodn't care if you were perfectly in control and turned into your wolf form to save orphns and puppies and nthing else, you're chaotic evil forever now"

I feel a better rule would be, if he turns into wolf form volontary, to have the player make will saves in situation where animal instincts would take over ( lots of blood around, , badly wounded, etc) to see if he loose control.
And if he goes berserk often, then consider a gradual alignement change

Gavinfoxx

2012-07-25, 09:51 AM

You should read this:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4398

Ravendoer

2012-07-25, 12:30 PM

2) is it possible for him to control this change, i mean, not change and go wild on the townsfolk

3) we agreed that the first time he changes we can tie him up. and i can cast Hold person on him. will this effect carry over into his transformed state?

Since he is a fighter, he wants to use this to his advantage. so we need to find a way or a ruling that would let him be able to control his wolf form.

thoughts?

oh, the benefits and stat bonuses are defiantly worth it. this happened to a rogue character of mine. hands down became the tank of party.

#2. involuntary Change
You must make a check at moonrise each night of the full moon to resist involuntarily assuming animal form. If you are injured, you must also check for an involuntary change after accumulating enough damage to reduce your hit points by one-quarter and again after each additional one-quarter lost.
Involuntary Change Control Shape DC
Resist involuntary change 25

On a failed check, you must remain in animal form until the next dawn, when you automatically return to your base form. If you are aware of your condition, you may make one attempt to return to humanoid form (see below), but if you fail, you remain in animal form until the next dawn.

Voluntary Change
In addition, if you are aware of your condition, you may attempt to use this skill voluntarily in order to change to animal form, assume hybrid form, or return to humanoid form, regardless of the state of the moon or whether you have been injured.
Voluntary Change Control Shape DC
Return to humanoid form (full moon1) 25
Return to humanoid form (not full moon) 20
Assume hybrid form 15
Voluntary change to animal form (full moon) 15
Voluntary change to animal form (not full moon) 20

If you have contracted lycanthropy and are aware of your condition, you can learn Control Shape as a class skill. (If you are an afflicted lycanthrope not yet aware of your condition, you can attempt Control Shape checks untrained.) This skill determines whether you can control your shape. If you are a natural lycanthrope, you do not need this skill, since you have full control over your shape.

#3 the biggest problem with that is "the first time he changes"
involuntary Change
You must make a check at moonrise each night of the full moon to resist involuntarily assuming animal form. If you are injured, you must also check for an involuntary change after accumulating enough damage to reduce your hit points by one-quarter and again after each additional one-quarter lost.
Involuntary Change Control Shape DC
Resist involuntary change 25

that was the biggest issue for me when not in hybrid, first time changed was in the middle of combat and mauled the ranger and druids animal companions

also when trying to lay low in the middle of a lawful town its bad idea to lose HP

Randomguy

2012-07-25, 12:47 PM

You could have him do a voluntary change, which will change his alignment, and then put a helm of Opposite Alignment on him, to change it back.

Sutremaine

2012-07-25, 12:52 PM

Woah, that is one pretty bull... rule.
"Nope, dodn't care if you were perfectly in control and turned into your wolf form to save orphns and puppies and nthing else, you're chaotic evil forever now"
Nah, it's cool. Your alignment doesn't determine your actions (in the absence of outside influence, it's the other way round), so while you'll be pinging Detect Evil like a paladin succubus once you fail the save you can just act normally.

Wyntonian

2012-07-25, 12:55 PM

Look, if your DM does entirely RAW Lycanthropy on a PC, they deserve a thorough book-slapping. Followed by getting a new DM. That spit's just that freaking ridiculous. At least waive the mechanical aspects of the forced alignment change, if nothing else.

Cerlis

2012-07-25, 02:22 PM

I dont think its a bull rule. you want bull? how bout mummy rot. fail to many saves and you die.

At least with lycanthropy you stay alive , and unlike with that ToB ninja class it doenst say anything about you becoming an npc (if you will the change).

The trope is in many many stories. of a person willingly returning to their evil version in order to help people. the POINT is after they do that they have to try to control their evil urges, for the sake of their personal attachments. Sure he'd be violent and hard to control, but he could STILL be controlled. He'd still care about his friends and his humanity just as much and probably not want to become a murdering monster. I'd LOVE to be in his position. Roleplaying opportunity abounds. Its easy to be good when you are good, but what about when you are evil. When the only thing that keeps you from turning into a monster is your own higher mind.

but back to the mummy rot analogy. This is a DISEASE, one of the worst kinds, in that it has the potential not to kill you, but turn you.into a monster who will kill things. Its suppose to be bad, its suppose to be scary. The feeling you got when you heard that news? thats the feeling you are suppose to have. "uh, oh, this isnt good."

You have a short window to cure him ("The Race!") and if you dont do it in time, that is a major questing opportunity. A journey to find a stronger than usual magic to cure him.

The template was put in there to beef up monsters, not players. The feeling HE got when he saw the bonus stats? That wasnt the intent. But there IS a middle ground, the ground i just said. Embrassing it as a roleplaying and group dynamic challenge!

-------------

But the major thing to remember, is CE isnt belkar, thats one form of CE. He STILL has his memories, and his personal attatchments, and his friends. Yall will either cure him or help him stay on the side of good, even if he turns evil.

GutterFace

2012-07-25, 02:22 PM

thanks everyone this is a bunch to look over. ill have to come up with a plan since the guy that got bit is a brand new player. ugh. then i will slap our DM.

Ravendoer

2012-07-25, 03:01 PM

I recommend the DMG its thicker and heavier, might make more of an impression :smallbiggrin:

Big Fau

2012-07-25, 04:59 PM

Make sure to hit him with a copy of War and Peace.

HunterColt22

2012-07-25, 05:40 PM

I dont think its a bull rule. you want bull? how bout mummy rot. fail to many saves and you die.

How is that a bull rule for mummy rot? It consistently ROTS YOUR BODY. I don't see how continuing degeneration of your body can't lead to death but eh.

At least with lycanthropy you stay alive , and unlike with that ToB ninja class it doenst say anything about you becoming an npc (if you will the change).

You need to look over the rules again to be honest. The PrC is Shadow Sun Ninja, and the change/death of your character only occurs when the damage you give out in negative levels exceeds your constitution score for that battle you entered the form. You can also only enter this form once per day for about 1 minute. The form is also willfully entered with no change to alignment or anything else of that nature minus some other bonuses you get for being a mass of shadow. Again you can also choose to give out the negative damage per successful unarmed strike, or not give it out. So again much better checks and balances for you to enter that form and not become an npc of evil versus the RAW of lycanthropy which just basically says, "Oh you want to use this form to help save the party of people you trust that is getting mangled and going to die... Okay well bugger off that idea because now you are chaotic evil, and have the sudden urge to eat them also."

The trope is in many many stories. of a person willingly returning to their evil version in order to help people. the POINT is after they do that they have to try to control their evil urges, for the sake of their personal attachments. Sure he'd be violent and hard to control, but he could STILL be controlled. He'd still care about his friends and his humanity just as much and probably not want to become a murdering monster. I'd LOVE to be in his position. Roleplaying opportunity abounds. Its easy to be good when you are good, but what about when you are evil. When the only thing that keeps you from turning into a monster is your own higher mind.

but back to the mummy rot analogy. This is a DISEASE, one of the worst kinds, in that it has the potential not to kill you, but turn you.into a monster who will kill things. Its suppose to be bad, its suppose to be scary. The feeling you got when you heard that news? thats the feeling you are suppose to have. "uh, oh, this isnt good."

You have a short window to cure him ("The Race!") and if you dont do it in time, that is a major questing opportunity. A journey to find a stronger than usual magic to cure him.

The template was put in there to beef up monsters, not players. The feeling HE got when he saw the bonus stats? That wasnt the intent. But there IS a middle ground, the ground i just said. Embrassing it as a roleplaying and group dynamic challenge!

While I have respect for your ideas for the role playing the choice, again if the character can not get to a healing in time, this should not be an end all for the rest of the party which it clearly is if he willfully enters that state from RAW perspective of the mechanic. I personally think it should be what you have suggested, struggle in his personality and to control his urges to kill and possibly eat the little hafling rogue right next to him at night.

Fouredged Sword

2012-07-25, 08:14 PM

The alignment shift thing isn't as bad as it sounds. If you can get your hands on a divine caster who can pull off 5th level spells you are good. The Atonement spell specifically calls out that it cost the caster nothing to reverse the alignment changes caused by any form of compulsions. Lycanthropy forcing an alignment shift should count. The character just gets dark and broody for a while.

Milo v3

2012-07-26, 07:41 AM

ThiagoMartell

2012-07-26, 07:54 AM

weenie

2012-07-26, 09:17 AM

Yeah the rules about alignment change and lychantropy are a bit weird. It would be much more fun to have a way of controlling yourself when you change with a roll and if you fail your character becomes an NPC temporarily instead. And then do something similar with voluntary changes.

ThiagoMartell

2012-07-26, 09:36 AM

only1doug

2012-07-26, 09:48 AM

If your character switches to an alignment you don't want to keep, just get someone to cast atonement on you. Ta-da, alignment shift.

EDIT: In fact, if I were this guy in your group, I would get in a fight with something able to level drain, to get hid of the damn animal HD, then get a cleric to cast atonement and maybe convert to his religion or something like that. Kinda cool if it's a cleric of Pelor, there is the whole sun x moon thing creating a nice dichotomy for the character.

Unfortunately by RAW the Alignment change occurs every time you voluntarily change form into animal or hybrid form and each involuntary change still inflicts an (increasingly large DC) Will save. Having changed alignment and changed back (by atonement) won't save you from a will save the next time you change shape (or a flat alignment change if you chose to change form).

ThiagoMartell

2012-07-26, 09:50 AM

Unfortunately by RAW the Alignment change occurs every time you voluntarily change form into animal or hybrid form and each involuntary change still inflicts an (increasingly large DC) Will save. Having changed alignment and changed back (by atonement) won't save you from a will save the next time you change shape (or a flat alignment change if you chose to change form).

Then avoid voluntary changes and pump your Will save if you want the lycanthrope characters. Or take levels in Silverstar. Or get someone to cast remove curse on you and remember that lycanthropy is a curse, not a free power up.

weenie

2012-07-26, 09:58 AM

Guys, lycanthropy is a curse. It's not supposed to be fun. You're supposed to want to get rid of it.

Yeah, but it could still make more sense than it does now. If the paladin turns into a wolf and rolls too low on his will save is suddenly a murderous bastard even when he turns back into his old form. Congrats, your character is now probably unplayable until he gets a spell cast on him or something.. What if rather you couldn't get rid of the disease or curse, but you know, remained yourself when not changed? "Here's a spell to make it all better" seems like a lame story.

Anyway, without the permanent alignment shift you would still become a wild and dangerous animal when you change, it would still be a heavy burden on a character and something you may try to hide from people, since they would still probably be afraid of you and try to kill you to be safe, but at least it wouldn't permanently change who your character was just because.

Also, why would someone who's CE want to change their alignment back to LG with atonement? Who cares about protecting the innocent, what's in it for me? I say it's time I started TAKING what I want, not waiting for it to be given to me. Mwahahaha!!

I never liked alignment anyway, but lychantropy seems to make especially bad use of it by RAW.

Tvtyrant

2012-07-26, 10:39 AM

Just wear a Helm of Opposite Alignment the whole time. Permanently good.

Lord Il Palazzo

2012-07-26, 11:16 AM

I dont think its a bull rule. you want bull? how bout mummy rot. fail to many saves and you die."Fail too many saves and you die" is a pretty good description of a large part of the game. If it's BS for mummy rot, why isn't it likewise for fireball or black tentacles or phantasmal killer or blindness/deafness or color spray...

That said, my group doesn't play the alignment aspects of lycanthropy partially because of the potential to screw up a character and partially becasue it's pretty nonsensical in places. A random guy gets bitten by a werebear and fails his save. The next time there's a full moon, he transforms into a bear and goes out and rampages through the city fights crime, because bears are lawful good, of course.

Leon

2012-07-26, 11:27 AM

You got bit by what?!?

A Bittern...

HunterColt22

2012-07-26, 11:34 AM

Just putting this out there but Chaotic Evil ≠ Axe Crazy. It means spontaneous and erratic nature + not considering others suffering. This can just mean your really selfish. I've played Chaotic Evil several times, and unless killing friends seems logical to the character then there is no reason to do it. Once I even played a Chaotic Evil God of Destruction and even then I didn't attack my allies.

While you are right and that it doesn't equal ax crazy there are a few things you are missing. Not considering others suffering is usually a pretty good indicator, that at some point, if someone is in your way, you are probably going to kill them if you want something bad enough, you also have to realize the actions your character sets in motion by doing his own things, etc. While this isn't as true in the real world, in D&D if you do one thing, dominoes start to fall shortly there after.

Also the biggest point I think most of us are arguing with lycanthropy is that, one you have an alignment shift you can't mitigate except via a single spell that goes poof! ALL BETTER, when in fact your character is now probably scarred and looks at the world like a hole in the ground. Secondly you are dealing with the instincts of a beast, and one that quite frankly can over power almost anything in the party one on one especially in a surprise when he either involuntarily or voluntarily shifts and his alignment suddenly jumps. More often then not, when an animal is hurt it does one of two things, flee or fight, and if it fights, it fights to kill, not maim or injure, but kill something. :l

LordBlades

2012-07-26, 12:26 PM

lycanthropy is a curse, not a free power up.

And that's why I think it's rather poorly designed: it punishes you for making what for most characters is the 'correct' RP choice: getting rid of it.

Bronk

2012-07-27, 08:56 AM

I agree that the 'Silverstar' option would work, as would the Helm of Opposite Alignment. The helm might be the easiest bet. Wait until after the PC changes, setting his alignment at Chaotic Evil, then put the helm on. His alignment will now be Lawful Good... permanently. The helm's description states that nothing short of a wish or miracle spell can change it back.

GutterFace

2012-07-27, 09:35 AM

The helm is a good idea. IF our DM lets us Magic Mart this game which i doubt will happen. also we are deep in a woodland maze and have no access to shop for anything. so until we find a helm we have a crazed (maybe) werewolf on our hands :(

i can only think to let him agree (law good align) to tie him up (i have 10' of chain and 30' of rope on me). for the first night.

i have already identified what bit him and told him what was going to happen (Factotum for the win).

I figure if we can make it through his first transformation we might be able to use this 'curse' to our advantage.

lunar2

2012-07-27, 10:49 AM

EDIT: In fact, if I were this guy in your group, I would get in a fight with something able to level drain, to get hid of the damn animal HD, then get a cleric to cast atonement and maybe convert to his religion or something like that. Kinda cool if it's a cleric of Pelor, there is the whole sun x moon thing creating a nice dichotomy for the character.

if you are playing a melee character, you actually might want to keep the animal HD, especially if it's a dire animal. your animal form's bonus to CON (if any) applies to your animal HD, but not your other HD. also, dire animals get good will saves, which can really help the squishy brained fighter.

Ravendoer

2012-07-27, 02:46 PM

hey gutter you might have missed what I was trying to get at with my post unless that in game day first night is a full moon your fighter could potentially shift at any time because at every quarter health that he goes down he has to make a will save to prevent involuntarily changing. so either he's tied up all the time and avoids combat until the full moon. or the first fight he get into may trigger his shift.

ThiagoMartell

2012-07-27, 10:41 PM

if you are playing a melee character, you actually might want to keep the animal HD, especially if it's a dire animal. your animal form's bonus to CON (if any) applies to your animal HD, but not your other HD. also, dire animals get good will saves, which can really help the squishy brained fighter.

I doubt that's ever going to be a good option. Each extra animal HD means you need more XP for the next level and that you gain less XP from each encounter. Animal HD also sucks, with 3/4 BAB and 2 skill points per level.

Milo v3

2012-07-27, 11:31 PM

I doubt that's ever going to be a good option. Each extra animal HD means you need more XP for the next level and that you gain less XP from each encounter. Animal HD also sucks, with 3/4 BAB and 2 skill points per level.

Even fighter levels are better than Animal HD. At least then you get some extra feats, higher HD, and a decent BAB.

Ravendoer

2012-07-28, 12:23 AM

TuggyNE

2012-07-28, 12:37 AM

ThiagoMartell

2012-07-28, 12:52 AM

what? your joking right?
there's plenty good stuff as a werewolf
+1 BAB
(afflicted) +2d8+(your con bonus)
+2 natural armor bonus in any form
damage reduction 5/silver
+2 Wisdom
wolfs are Str +2, Dex +4, Con +4
scent in any form
Track, Weapon Focus(bite), and Iron Will as a bonus feats
wolf empathy (like animal empathy but only applies to wolves)

So you don't get xp as much as your other party members once they hit the same lv as you it basically evens out and it's back to normal
I think you may be downplaying how long it will take for you to catch up.
Say you're at 5th level. You have 12500 XP (halfway to the next level). You get bitten and become a lycanthrope. You gain 2 RHD and LA +2. You are still at 12500 XP, bus instead of leveling up at 15000 XP you'll only level up at 36000 XP. And you are also getting XP slower than anyone else. Getting rid of the animal hit dice loses you nothing (well, next to nothing - the Con from your animal form does not apply to it, big deal - that's 8 hp when it comes a werewolf), and saves around 15000 XP, making you gain XP faster.
Ask any player with a character in the mid levels if he'd trade 15000 XP for 8 hp. I'd be very surprised if any did.
You're also downplaying all the problems regarding lycanthropy, specially involuntary change. Wanted to hit that dude/disturb a spellcaster? Sorry, you failed a Will save, you'll have to spend your standard action changing form.
Lycanthropy can be somewhat of a power up for some characters and makes for really cool concepts. I love tragic heroes and I've played lycanthropes more than once just to deal with the problems the curse causes. What is fun about lycanthropes is that it is a trade off - you actually lose something by being one, to the point that most characters simply want to get remove curse cast on them.

Omegonthesane

2012-07-28, 01:37 AM

Also, why would someone who's CE want to change their alignment back to LG with atonement? Who cares about protecting the innocent, what's in it for me? I say it's time I started TAKING what I want, not waiting for it to be given to me. Mwahahaha!!

I never liked alignment anyway, but lychantropy seems to make especially bad use of it by RAW.

"Ever since I changed voluntarily, something just snapped. It's like, I can go through all the motions, but all the old zeal is gone, and I can hardly look at even my own teammates without thinking whether or not I can kill them - let alone civilians. I snap and lash out at the slightest provocation now, and I can't even bring myself to get plinked by a sword for people I used to love. It's all I can do to keep the fury in check, and I hate it, but I can't help myself, I'm not strong enough..."

Being Evil and wanting to be Evil are two different things.

only1doug

2012-07-28, 01:40 AM

"Ever since I changed voluntarily, something just snapped. It's like, I can go through all the motions, but all the old zeal is gone, and I can hardly look at even my own teammates without thinking whether or not I can kill them - let alone civilians. I snap and lash out at the slightest provocation now, and I can't even bring myself to get plinked by a sword for people I used to love. It's all I can do to keep the fury in check, and I hate it, but I can't help myself, I'm not strong enough..."

Being Evil and wanting to be Evil are two different things.

And when we saved that orphanage, we looked at those poor little children and all i felt was..... hungry....

Andezzar

2012-07-28, 03:49 AM

So the lycanthrope gets a CE alignment. But unless the character is a cleric or other divine caster, this has hardly any impact on him.

While he will be detected by Detect Evil and Detect Chaos, he is not forced to act chaotically and evilly. It would be good though if the player roleplayed the urge to do so. Alignment change through action is possible and even if it isn't, a CE alignment is not an irresistible compulsion to maim kill burn.

More debilitating IMHO are the RHD and the LA (which is +2 for the Lycanthrope BTW)

Tvtyrant

2012-07-28, 04:06 AM

And that's, what, five levels later (2 RHD + LA 3)? Harsh, dude.

Assuming you get that far. Which a lot of campaigns do not. And you can always retire the character and make a new one if you become uselessly behind.

That is always one of the odd things about D&D optimization; we make builds that go to level 20 in a game where your character has a reasonable chance of dying and an equally reasonable chance of ending at level 5-10.

Killer Angel

2012-07-28, 10:40 AM

The helm is a good idea. IF our DM lets us Magic Mart this game which i doubt will happen.

If I were a chaotic evil lycantrope, I would kill to stay away from such an item...

Omegonthesane

2012-07-28, 05:15 PM

Augmental

2012-07-28, 08:08 PM

Why?

Seriously, run through the steps here for the actual situation being described.

You, a Something Good person, who can see the merits of each of LG, NG, or CG and who genuinely and generally wants to help people, get bitten by a lycanthrope. You at some later date willingly let the power enter you, granting you the strength to, I dunno, kill a wandering sorcerer who was going to burn down and animate a village or something. In doing so, you turn yourself Chaotic Evil, so now you have constant, unwanted, disgusting, disturbing urges that you have no idea how to control, and you can't bring yourself to care about others even though you know that's a huge part of what you once lived for.

Someone offers you the chance to not only get rid of those urges and turn you back into the person you were, but to get rid of them so powerfully that even succumbing to the same power that turned you evil won't turn you evil a second time.

You are seriously saying you would kill them to avoid being restored to your former, well-grounded glory, so you can remain a tortured soul constantly an inch from lashing out at others in a highly unproductive manner? Why? What have I missed here?

Well, once you're Chaotic Evil, you're not going to see those urges as evil anymore. If you turn CE due to lycanthropy, that doesn't mean "Lawful Good person trying to hold in Chaotic Evil urges" - it means Chaotic Evil.

Andezzar

2012-07-28, 08:53 PM

Augmental

2012-07-28, 09:44 PM

Is your alignment defined by your actions, or are your actions defined by your alignment?

I believe that under normal circumstances, it's the former - however, for magical alignment changes, it's the latter.

ThiagoMartell

2012-07-28, 10:51 PM

Purposefully changing back your alignment is part of the atonement spell. It must be voluntary. Wanting to change your alignment fits any alignment.

Omegonthesane

2012-07-29, 12:27 AM

Well, once you're Chaotic Evil, you're not going to see those urges as evil anymore. If you turn CE due to lycanthropy, that doesn't mean "Lawful Good person trying to hold in Chaotic Evil urges" - it means Chaotic Evil.

I utterly and completely disagree. One of my longer running and most fun to play characters was (translating to D&Dese) a Lawful Evil rogue trying very hard to hew to LG or at least LN, while almost suppressing his murderous needs - but could never escape the fact he'd partly chosen to go adventuring so he could kill things, up to and including wanting deep down to kill another Rogue when they were both scouting, not for any personal reason but simply because the man turned his back to him. He knew it, he hated it, and he hated himself for it, but none of that is the same thing as being strong enough to overcome it, or the same as not wanting to do it, or being filled with malicious glee when you get a chance to do it and get away with it.

Purposefully changing back your alignment is part of the atonement spell. It must be voluntary. Wanting to change your alignment fits any alignment.

And without this clause, magical alignment changes would make no sense whatsoever.

Milo v3

2012-07-29, 12:44 AM

I just want to restate a point I think most people have forgotten. Evil doesn't mean you have an urge to kill people. It means your willing to commit evil actions; like lying, stealing, helping fiends, reanimating skeletons to save orphans, etc.

ThiagoMartell

2012-07-29, 12:48 AM

Milo v3

2012-07-29, 01:03 AM

Murder is an evil action, so...

Being willing to do something and having an urge to do something are very different things.

Almaseti

2012-07-29, 01:05 AM

Murder is an evil action, so...

But it's not the only evil action.

ThiagoMartell

2012-07-29, 01:13 AM

Being willing to do something and having an urge to do something are very different things.

Being willing to do something you never wanted to do before is pretty much the definition of a sudden urge.

Milo v3

2012-07-29, 01:23 AM

Being willing to do something you never wanted to do before is pretty much the definition of a sudden urge.

No, suddenly wanting to do something is a sudden urge. Being willing doesn't equal want.

Omegonthesane

2012-07-29, 01:39 AM

No, suddenly wanting to do something is a sudden urge. Being willing doesn't equal want.

Suddenly being willing to do something evil is a good indication that you've been hit by magical alignment changes, which as an experienced adventurer you will know are things that happen that have countermeasures such as a helm of opposite alignment, and as a semi-functioning member of society you probably want to stop being Chaotic Evil as fast as possible, before you give in to your murderous desires at an inoppportune time.

Failing that stance - that having an alignment doesn't stop you doing things that would logically change your alignment later - all magical alignment changes, ever, in the universe, are unacceptable Gygaxian nonsense and should be removed post-haste.

I believe that under normal circumstances, it's the former - however, for magical alignment changes, it's the latter.

One rule for everybody - if magical alignment change doesn't make sense with your take on alignment, forbid magical alignment change, don't add verismilitude-destroying exceptions to your theory of alignment.

Milo v3

2012-07-29, 01:54 AM

Suddenly being willing to do something evil is a good indication that you've been hit by magical alignment changes, which as an experienced adventurer you will know are things that happen that have countermeasures such as a helm of opposite alignment, and as a semi-functioning member of society you probably want to stop being Chaotic Evil as fast as possible, before you give in to your murderous desires at an inoppportune time.

I'm fine with everything you said, except the desires. Where do these murderous desires come from?

Gavinfoxx

2012-07-29, 02:15 AM

I'm fine with everything you said, except the desires. Where do these murderous desires come from?

The Lycanthropy curse, which fixes into the gestalt viewpoint that cultures have of various animals, which means they see wolves as evil, so that it makes you evil...

Milo v3

2012-07-29, 02:25 AM

The Lycanthropy curse, which fixes into the gestalt viewpoint that cultures have of various animals, which means they see wolves as evil, so that it makes you evil...

I understand that. I'm saying Evil Doesn't Equal Murderous Urges.

Andezzar

2012-07-29, 02:30 AM

I believe that under normal circumstances, it's the former - however, for magical alignment changes, it's the latter.

The Lycanthropy curse, which fixes into the gestalt viewpoint that cultures have of various animals, which means they see wolves as evil, so that it makes you evil...
You are changed to fit the alignment of the were-animal, when you first change voluntarily. The rules say nothing about forcing you to continue to act according to that alignment. Immediately after changing you could start to commit lawful and/or good acts until the DM admits that your actions no longer fit your alignment and changes it.

If the werecreature were forced to act according to the alignment, this would open interesting possibilites for good and neutral lycanthropes. Just afflict humanoid villains with your type of lycanthropy. As soon as the villain voluntarily changes, the problem is solved. This might be even considered a more humane approach than simply eliminating the threat. Now you just have to find a way to make the villain change voluntarily.

Milo v3

2012-07-29, 02:38 AM

Just afflict humanoid villains with your type of lycanthropy. As soon as the villain voluntarily changes, the problem is solved. This might be even considered a more humane approach than simply eliminating the threat. Now you just have to find a way to make the villain change voluntarily.

YMMV on whether rewriting the mind of sentient creatures is a good act.

ThiagoMartell

2012-07-29, 02:55 AM

If the werecreature were forced to act according to the alignment, this would open interesting possibilites for good and neutral lycanthropes. Just afflict humanoid villains with your type of lycanthropy. As soon as the villain voluntarily changes, the problem is solved. This might be even considered a more humane approach than simply eliminating the threat. Now you just have to find a way to make the villain change voluntarily.
Not surprisingly, that's exactly what werebears do in FR.

kardar233

2012-07-29, 02:56 AM

Sanctify the Wicked is an [Exalted] spell that rewrites an evil creature's mind into goodness. That's all that needs to be said, there.

Leon

2012-07-29, 05:12 AM

Sanctify the Wicked is an [Exalted] spell that rewrites an evil creature's mind into goodness. That's all that needs to be said, there.

With its own connotations of evil there - forcibly making a creature change to what the caster believes is best

ThiagoMartell

2012-07-29, 05:40 AM

With its own connotations of evil there - forcibly making a creature change to what the caster believes is best
Back in 339, people would frequently say the alignment related fluff part of BoED (which, by itself, is pretty good) was written by different people than the actual rules. If you pay attention, the rules often directly contradict what the fluff previous stablished.
This is just something people frequently said and I don't know if there is any truth to it, but it does seem to explain a lot.

2xMachina

2012-07-29, 08:37 AM

CE doesn't automatically make you go: "Kill everyone you used to love". Nope. You'll still love them. Even wolves have their packs that they'll protect. It's just the prey and opponents they don't mind tearing apart.

ThiagoMartell

2012-07-29, 08:43 AM

2xMachina

2012-07-29, 08:54 AM

Wolves are neutral, but otherwise you're right.

Was kinda following the wolves are evil theme of lycanthrophy. Replace with werewolves if preferred.

ThiagoMartell

2012-07-29, 09:06 AM

Was kinda following the wolves are evil theme of lycanthrophy. Replace with werewolves if preferred.

The thing with werewolves killing loved ones (which is a common trope) happens when the character becomes a NPC. He is simply not himself during that time.

Killer Angel

2012-07-30, 03:57 AM

If I were a chaotic evil lycantrope, I would kill to stay away from such an item...

Why?

Seriously, run through the steps here for the actual situation being described.

You, a Something Good person, who can see the merits of each of LG, NG, or CG and who genuinely and generally wants to help people, get bitten by a lycanthrope. You at some later date willingly let the power enter you, granting you the strength to, I dunno, kill a wandering sorcerer who was going to burn down and animate a village or something. In doing so, you turn yourself Chaotic Evil, so now you have constant, unwanted, disgusting, disturbing urges that you have no idea how to control, and you can't bring yourself to care about others even though you know that's a huge part of what you once lived for.

Someone offers you the chance to not only get rid of those urges and turn you back into the person you were, but to get rid of them so powerfully that even succumbing to the same power that turned you evil won't turn you evil a second time.

You are seriously saying you would kill them to avoid being restored to your former, well-grounded glory, so you can remain a tortured soul constantly an inch from lashing out at others in a highly unproductive manner? Why? What have I missed here?

THis needs some clarifications.
If I were the DM, I could (note that I'm not using "will") dictate that a magical curse changes radically your alignment, and you must act accordingly. A Chaotic Evil lycanthrope enjoys the killing and the slaughter of innocent victims, and laughs at its previous "stupid" life, so full of senseless constrains.
It's a thing that must be defined with the player, and played out together.

If I were the player, I would probably play the thing in this way (hence my contested phrase).
And I (as a player) expect that my group will take care of the question without killing me.

The thing can be played in both ways.
The good person becomes a lycanthrope, does terrible things and struggle to end the curse (or find a girdle of Al. change).
OR
The good person becomes a lycanthrope and becomes Evil.
(See also the differences of behavior between Hopkins and Del Toro in the film Wolfman)

Andezzar

2012-07-30, 08:50 AM

If I were the player, I would probably play the thing in this way (hence my contested phrase).
And I (as a player) expect that my group will take care of the question without killing me.If the GM rules that there is a compulsion in addition to the alignment change, what makes you think that the other PCs will assume that simply changing the alignment will remove that compulsion. They might just deem you irredeemably evil. Then as good characters they would not have any choice but to kill you off or imprison you indefinitely. Either way that character is retired.

The thing can be played in both ways.
The good person becomes a lycanthrope, does terrible things and struggle to end the curse (or find a girdle of Al. change).
OR
The good person becomes a lycanthrope and becomes Evil.
(See also the differences of behavior between Hopkins and Del Toro in the film Wolfman)The point is, it is the character's choice not the GM's.

ThiagoMartell

2012-07-30, 09:16 AM

The point is, it is the character's choice not the GM's.

So how a curse affects you is your choice? :smalltongue:

Killer Angel

2012-07-30, 09:25 AM

If the GM rules that there is a compulsion in addition to the alignment change, what makes you think that the other PCs will assume that simply changing the alignment will remove that compulsion. They might just deem you irredeemably evil. Then as good characters they would not have any choice but to kill you off or imprison you indefinitely.

As DM, i would give the thing as a basic info with a justified knowledge roll (be it history, religion, arcane, or even bardic lore): "the curse transformed the poor fellow in an evil beast; remove the curse and the evilness will go away".

Either way that character is retired.

Or it can be played as evil for one session, 'til the group subdue it and remove the curse / put on the belt.

The point is, it is the character's choice not the GM's.

I was exactly speaking as a player, so yes. If I read "your alignment change to CE", from that point on, I play as a CE.
And even so, the thing should be "approved" by the DM. If the DM tells "no, look, in my world the lycanthropy doesn't work this way, the change of alignment doesn't change your old good PoV, you can fight to remove the curse", i'd roll with it.

Killer Angel

2012-07-30, 10:04 AM

Now, my previous posts were about my opinion on the matter; let's see if now we can clarify the thing, by RAW...

Lycanthropy As An Affliction

When a character contracts lycanthropy through a lycanthrope’s bite (see above), no symptoms appear until the first night of the next full moon. On that night, the afflicted character involuntarily assumes animal form and forgets his or her own identity, temporarily becoming an NPC. The character remains in animal form, assuming the appropriate alignment, until the next dawn.

The character’s actions during this first episode are dictated by the alignment of its animal form. The character remembers nothing about the entire episode (or subsequent episodes) unless he succeeds on a DC 15 Wisdom check, in which case he becomes aware of his lycanthropic condition.

Thereafter, the character is subject to involuntary transformation under the full moon and whenever damaged in combat. He or she feels an overwhelming rage building up and must succeed on a Control Shape check (see below) to resist changing into animal form. Any player character not yet aware of his or her lycanthropic condition temporarily becomes an NPC during an involuntary change, and acts according to the alignment of his or her animal form.

A character with awareness of his condition retains his identity and does not lose control of his actions if he changes. However, each time he changes to his animal form, he must make a Will save (DC 15 + number of times he has been in animal form) or permanently assume the alignment of his animal form in all shapes.

Let's assume you're infected.

first step: you must succeed a DC 15 wis check to become aware of your condition.

Second: you can be subject to involuntary transformation, 'til you become aware of it.

Third: when you're aware of your curse, you retain your identity and have control of your actions. So, the good fighter can avoid to indulge in senseless massacre and retains its own morality.

fourth step: each time you change form, you must make a Will save or permanently change alignment in all shapes (in the case of the werewolf, CE).

When you arrive at the fourth step, you are willingly transforming in something that can change your inner self forever. By RAW, you are Chaotic Evil 24h/day, not "a good person that suffer from a strage urge to do horrible things but struggle against this mysterious force".

So, as a DM, after the 2nd step, I would inform the player / character of the risk involved in the following steps.
Lycanthropy is a curse, not a free power up.

Andezzar

2012-07-30, 10:27 AM

So how a curse affects you is your choice? :smalltongue:Not how the curse affects you, but how you act after you have been affected by the curse.

After a voluntary change, the alignment of the afflicted changes to CE or any other alignment of the werecreature. This is the effect of the curse. There is no mention that from now on the afflicted is forced to commit chaotic and/or evil acts.

Big Fau

2012-07-30, 10:35 AM

So, as a DM, after the 2nd step, I would inform the player / character of the risk involved in the following steps.
Lycanthropy is a curse, not a free power up.

It all ready is a curse because of it's ECL adjustment...

Killer Angel

2012-07-30, 10:41 AM

After a voluntary change, the alignment of the afflicted changes to CE or any other alignment of the werecreature. This is the effect of the curse. There is no mention that from now on the afflicted is forced to commit chaotic and/or evil acts.

Oh, yes, by RAW, there's almost ever no penalty if you don't "play" your alignment... :smallsigh:

lunar2

2012-07-30, 10:41 AM

evil is not simply the willingness to perform evil acts. even good people are often willing to lie when the circumstances justify it. evil is not selfishness or greed, neutral and the occasional good person can be selfish or greedy, as well.

evil is causing others harm, even when it is not strictly necessary. this doesn't mean that you think of killing your wife every time she opens her mouth (even though even good people sometimes do that, lol), or that you instantly want to kill everyone you meet. it does mean that you hurt, oppress, or kill others in some fashion, either because you have no compassion, or because you want to.

so, the "good guy with urges" has an instinctive desire to harm others, whether or not it would be beneficial. that doesn't mean he likes those desires (everyone has some kind of deviant desire, and most people are disgusted by their own darker nature). he may try to resist them, and might even attempt to purge them.

the truly evil now guy more likely has no compassion for others. he may or may not enjoy hurting others, but he no longer has the capacity to care about them (people in general, not his friends and family). this one will likely resist any attempts to return him to his former alignment, since he of course would not care that he doesn't care.

both of these are legitimately evil, but in different ways. the first one makes more sense for lycanthropy, though, since you are taking on the bloodlust and ferocity of the animal.

@RHD. four dire animal HD gets you (note that i specified dire animals, not regular animals, in my last post) 3 BAB, 8+ skill points (drop them in spot and listen, so you won't be flat footed so often), 18+ 4x your higher Con mod HP, and +4 to all your base saves. by comparison, 4 fighter levels gets you 4 bab, 22+ 4x your lower Con mod hp, 8+ skill points with crappy class skills, 3 feats, 1 ability point, +1 or 2 to your reflex and will saves, and +2 to your fortitude saves (assuming assuming these aren't your first fighter levels). if, your animal form gives at least +4 to con, you have as many HP for animal HD as you do for fighter levels. you get the same skill points, better class skills, and much better saves. i think that's a fair trade off. also, since any build involving lycanthropy is likely to involve the animal or hybrid forms as a primary method of combat, each +2 to strength given by the animal form fully negates 1 lost BAB.

now, into some of the houserules that have already been thrown around here.

negative levels do not expressly allow you to exchange RHD for class levels. the closest related rules are those for savage progressions, which require you to finish the race or template before you can gain class levels. this means that even if you lose your RHD, going by the most similar available rules requires you to regain those RHD before gaining any more class levels. a nice DM may allow you to change out RHD this way, but it is by no means guaranteed.

level loss does give you a RAW benefit though. if you lose a level, you have enough experience to get you halfway back to the level you lost. in a lycanthrope's case, you actually gain a huge chunk of experience by RAW if you lose just 1 level. you will be more powerful than the party for quite a while this way, even if you lose all your RHD, because you will still have enough EXP to cover your LA.

one other note. ability points for gaining levels are already accounted for in racial ability modifiers. if you lose enough levels to lose an ability point, you have to lose it from something granted by lycanthropy, since those were the last points you gained. or, fi your DM rules that you don't actually know which point was gained last, you have to lose it from your highest ability score.

Andezzar

2012-07-30, 10:57 AM

Oh, yes, by RAW, there's almost ever no penalty if you don't "play" your alignment... :smallsigh:I guess you meant that ironically, but by RAW alignment change is possible and the rules say nothing about what happens after the change except that it is permanent.

If you read that literally nothing, not even a helmet of opposite alignment, can restore the original alignment. If you don't it is just as permanent as a voluntarily chosen alignment at character generation i.e. it can be changed through constantly performing actions of another alignment. Contrary to the aforementioned cursed item, lycanthropy says nothing about what the character feels or thinks about this alignment change.

For Comparison:

Any voluntary change to animal or hybrid form immediately and permanently changes the character’s alignment to that of the appropriate lycanthrope.

Alteration in alignment is mental as well as moral, and the individual changed by the magic thoroughly enjoys his new outlook.

Killer Angel

2012-07-30, 11:11 AM

I guess you meant that ironically,

Ironically sad. I forgot the blue color...

but by RAW alignment change is possible and the rules say nothing about what happens after the change except that it is permanent.

If you read that literally nothing, not even a helmet of opposite alignment, can restore the original alignment. If you don't it is just as permanent as a voluntarily chosen alignment at character generation i.e. it can be changed through constantly performing actions of another alignment. Contrary to the aforementioned cursed item, lycanthropy says nothing about what the character feels or thinks about this alignment change.

good point.
My opinion, is that what the character thinks or feel after the al. change, can (and should) be defined by the player and the DM.