View Full Version : Druid Secret Language: Mindmeld?
So a while ago I started a thread about spell craft (you can see it here:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248424&page=2), and in typical GitP fashion is sprouted several side growth. One of the ideas this led me to was that the druidic secret language. Every creature who takes a level as a druid can speak it, but how does that work? How can every culture produce druids who speak the exact same language? You could try add "within reasons" and alter the strict RAW accordingly, but where do you draw the line? All humanoids? All humanoids and monstrous humanoids? Do you cut out aberrations, dragons, outsiders? One idea I had was that the druidic secret language could be a sort of mind meld. This would allow you to obey RAW, and I know of at least one instance of precedent in fantasy for such a thing (in Priestess in White). What do you think?
ThiagoMartell
2012-07-25, 07:29 AM
It's a secret language. Learning it is part of learning how to be a druid. It's not really not any more complicated than that.
It's a secret language. Learning it is part of learning how to be a druid. It's not really not any more complicated than that.
So in your game how does a human and tanari druid speak the same language?
ThiagoMartell
2012-07-25, 07:54 AM
So in your game how does a human and tanari druid speak the same language?
The same way both the human and the tanarii can speak all other languages. If a human can speak infernal and a tanarii can speak common, why can't both of them speak druidic?
The same way both the human and the tanarii can speak all other languages. If a human can speak infernal and a tanarii can speak common, why can't both of them speak druidic?
Because its a secret language tied to a class, therefor comparing it to common is not a valid example. If the druidic language was widely known enough that anyone could learn it and druids just happened to get it automatically (or had to spend skill points on it), then fine, I wouldn't be tempted to re-fluff.
Namfuak
2012-07-25, 08:05 AM
Clearly there is a druid school somewhere in the universe that teaches every single druid how to be a druid. And they are only allowed to talk about it in Druidic, so very few people who aren't druids know about it.
Alternatively, Druidic could simply be a "language of the forest" that druids have to learn before they can start casting spells. It's sort of like in many fantasy settings where you need to learn some ancient magic language to cast magic.
DoughGuy
2012-07-25, 08:08 AM
I think because taking a level in druid isnt meant to be as easy as taking a level in druid. Taking said level implies you have undergone all the secret druid trials under the supervision of a druid and been accepted by them as a druid. Said druid would have taught you the secret language during your tests.
Alternatively, Druidic could simply be a "language of the forest" that druids have to learn before they can start casting spells. It's sort of like in many fantasy settings where you need to learn some ancient magic language to cast magic.
Ironically enough the thread that led me to this idea was me explaining why I felt that one language for magic couldn't work under the 3.5 spellcraft rules. The language of the forest idea is an interesting one.
I think because taking a level in druid isnt meant to be as easy as taking a level in druid. Taking said level implies you have undergone all the secret druid trials under the supervision of a druid and been accepted by them as a druid. Said druid would have taught you the secret language during your tests.
Yes, but there are no mechanics for that, and its not as if they didn't have PrC when they first printed the druid.
Tanar'ri are always CE, therefore they can never be druid and should never learn druidic language.
Tanar'ri are always CE, therefore they can never be druid and should never learn druidic language.
So a succubus got hit with Mind Rape or StW (they would may retain the evil subtype but their alignment could change). The specific creature isn't the important part.
Golden Ladybug
2012-07-25, 08:18 AM
When you start as a first level druid, the default fluff assumes that you spent the 2-10d6 years that it took you to learn druidness, you know, learning that sort of thing. You would've been taught that language when you were learning how to attract an Animal Companion or Cast Spells.
Multiclassing into Druid later technically gives you knowledge of the Druidic Language, along with all the other goodies, without taking that time to learn it, and stuff starts to get a little weird fluff-wise, but that's true of pretty much every class you multiclass into (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0126.html).
When you start as a first level druid, the default fluff assumes that you spent the 2-10d6 years that it took you to learn druidness, you know, learning that sort of thing. You would've been taught that language when you were learning how to attract an Animal Companion or Cast Spells.
Even ignoring how multiclassing can screw with the fluff learning of classes, how has this secret language managed to make its way into every creature who takes druid as their first level?
Namfuak
2012-07-25, 08:21 AM
Ironically enough the thread that led me to this idea was me explaining why I felt that one language for magic couldn't work under the 3.5 spellcraft rules. The language of the forest idea is an interesting one.
I don't mean to say that magic has a universal language, just druidic magic. However, I just double-checked Spirit Shaman, and it does not appear that they learn Druidic as a bonus language, so how would they cast spells if that were the case (same goes for the Archivist). I suppose the argument could be made that they don't understand what they are saying, they just say it and things happen.
I'm still for the Druidic college idea. It'd be like UC Berkley, with people sitting in trees and using "herbal" recreational substances.
ThiagoMartell
2012-07-25, 08:24 AM
Even ignoring how multiclassing can screw with the fluff learning of classes, how has this secret language managed to make its way into every creature who takes druid as their first level?
It hasn't. Druids are a secret society.
It hasn't. Druids are a secret society.
That spans to every society that has ever produced a druid.
Golden Ladybug
2012-07-25, 08:32 AM
Even ignoring how multiclassing can screw with the fluff learning of classes, how has this secret language managed to make its way into every creature who takes druid as their first level?
Let me answer your question with a question; Why does every Fighter know how to use every Simple and Martial weapon? Why does every Ranger have the capacity to track people? Why does every Bard have the capacity to inspire people? Why can every Cleric turn undead? Why does every Wizard have access to the same 8 (besides those they barred when specialising) schools? Why does every Barbarian rage? Why does every Monk run fast?
This is just one of those things that is so; all Druids know Druidic. Presumably, they were taught it by the person(s) who taught them how to be a Druid in the first place, perhaps they went to Druid college, maybe the Forest itself gave them some language lessons? Whatever the reason, those who learn Druidic Magic also learnt the Druidic Language
ThiagoMartell
2012-07-25, 08:41 AM
That spans to every society that has ever produced a druid.
Yes. Why is that a problem?
EDIT: Actually, it's more like people reach to druids to learn how to be druids or are introduced to druidism by another druid. Druids don't have to be integrated into all societies (in fact, druids are probably not integrated to most societies). It's just that whenever random guy X from society Y was taught by druid Z, he learned Druidic.
Let me answer your question with a question; Why does every Fighter know how to use every Simple and Martial weapon? Why does every Ranger have the capacity to track people? Why does every Bard have the capacity to inspire people? Why can every Cleric turn undead? Why does every Wizard have access to the same 8 (besides those they barred when specialising) schools? Why does every Barbarian rage? Why does every Monk run fast?
Isn't that the perfect solution fallacy?
This is just one of those things that is so; all Druids know Druidic. Presumably, they were taught it by the person(s) who taught them how to be a Druid in the first place, perhaps they went to Druid college, maybe the Forest itself gave them some language lessons? Whatever the reason, those who learn Druidic Magic also learnt the Druidic Language
The land teaching the language is an interesting take, and just as believable as mind meld. But both involve willing the fluff gaps, which raises the question why are you against the mindmeld idea.
Also, pet peeve: Can we stop saying forests when talking about the druids connection to the land? I know western society tends to think of the forest as the ultimate example of nature, but logically there will be are who have never seen a forest.
Yes. Why is that a problem?
Because I don't remember Ao or the Lady of Pain promising to help keep the druid language a secret and that is the only way a language could spread that far whilst remaining a secret. Its easier to learn the language of the earth elementals tan it is the language of the druids.
I don't mean to say that magic has a universal language, just druidic magic. However, I just double-checked Spirit Shaman, and it does not appear that they learn Druidic as a bonus language, so how would they cast spells if that were the case (same goes for the Archivist). I suppose the argument could be made that they don't understand what they are saying, they just say it and things happen.
You cannot fluff the mechanics of casting a spell as simply understanding the language in which the words are spoken (due to the way the spell craft skill works), not even for druid magic. At least that is a case I was supporting in the previous thread.
ThiagoMartell
2012-07-25, 08:47 AM
Because I don't remember Ao or the Lady of Pain promising to help keep the druid language a secret and that is the only way a language could spread that far whilst remaining a secret. Its easier to learn the language of the earth elementals tan it is the language of the druids.
See my edit.
Also, newsflash: some groups are good at - gasp - keeping secrets.
Just google secret language. I'll wait.
Downysole
2012-07-25, 08:47 AM
So, you're suggesting that by adding a new layer of crunch (Mindmeld), you can get around a breakdown in the DnD system of multi-classing?
I think that the explanation that all first level druids everywhere require extensive training justifies how they have all learned the Druidic language. This could be justified in the fluff through either a group of Druids teaching the language or through individually learning a sort of universal language from the natural environment you're in.
I think that the explanation of a fighter 1 learning Druidic automatically when he decides to write "/Drd1" on his character sheet is a little lame and would cause the whole mindmeld thing to gain considerable merit. However, in my campaigns, you have to earn your prestige classes and your secondary classes as well through an interesting side-quest, so I'm just like that as a DM.
See my edit.
So who showed up to teach the reformed succubus? How did they know to go to the Abyss?
Also, newsflash: some groups are good at - gasp - keeping secrets.
And some people/groups are good at -gasp- finding out secrets.
Just google secret language. I'll wait.
Without divination magic I don't think any real world secret language is a valid example.
So, you're suggesting that by adding a new layer of crunch (Mindmeld), you can get around a breakdown in the DnD system of multi-classing?
No new crunch, just new fluff.
However, in my campaigns, you have to earn your prestige classes and your secondary classes as well through an interesting side-quest, so I'm just like that as a DM.
So how would you handle an outsider druid? Do all outsiders have their own secret druid organization?
ThiagoMartell
2012-07-25, 08:56 AM
So who showed up to teach the reformed succubus? How did they know to go to the Abyss?
Now you're reaching into the problems of multiclassing. If your reformed succubus never meets a druids, she can't be a druid, of course. It's the same problem as if she became a wizard - would a spellbook pop into existence?
And some people/groups are good at -gasp- finding out secrets.
And why do you think no one has ever learned druidic outside of the druids, btw? It's even listed as a language available in Speak Language. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/speakLanguage.htm)
No new crunch, just new fluff.
Explain mindmeld better, because it sure looks like crunch to me. Isn't it like somewhat of a hivemind?
Now you're reaching into the problems of multiclassing. If your reformed succubus never meets a druids, she can't be a druid, of course. It's the same problem as if she became a wizard - would a spellbook pop into existence?
A teacher is not a mechanical requirement for a druid. There are PrC for that.
And why do you think no one has ever learned druidic outside of the druids, btw? It's even listed as a language available in Speak Language. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/speakLanguage.htm)
Isn't there a clause that it cannot be chosen as a starting language?
Explain mindmeld better, because it sure looks like crunch to me. Isn't it like somewhat of a hivemind?
Its a language. You can speak to others who speak the language and if someone else if present who speaks the language but you are not aware of that they will hear what is being said without you knowing, baring a good sense motive check.
Mindmeld doesn't exist in D&D, so no it isn't like a hivemind, which does exist.
ThiagoMartell
2012-07-25, 09:14 AM
A teacher is not a mechanical requirement for a druid. There are PrC for that.
Nor is it for wizard. You mean that in your game spellbooks magically pop into existence?
Isn't there a clause that it cannot be chosen as a starting language?
Yes. A language you learn from Speak Language is by definition not a starting language.
Its a language. You can speak to others who speak the language and if someone else if present who speaks the language but you are not aware of that they will hear what is being said without you knowing, baring a good sense motive check.
Mindmeld doesn't exist in D&D, so no it isn't like a hivemind, which does exist.
You still have not explained what the hell a mindmeld is. If it is any sort of mental communication, that is indeed changing crunch, since it affects the Silence spell, being mute or deaf, doesn't allow someone to read your lips with Spot... the list goes on.
Downysole
2012-07-25, 09:25 AM
So how would you handle an outsider druid? Do all outsiders have their own secret druid organization?
Are you referring to someone who has come to attune themselves to nature in their home plane, or an outsider on the Prime Material who has chosen to become a druid?
The latter is easy, since the same principles apply as a PC.
The former is a little more hand-wavy. There are natural environments on every plane (even mechanus is "natural" in a way), therefore a druidic population may exist. If it doesn't, refer back to the "natural language" that is developed through extensive interaction with the environment. The only caveat to a Planar Druid is that I think that druids of other planes should probably have spells on their list that are attuned to that plane.
I looked in the Planar Handbook for more advice, but didn't really find anything. I bet it is described at length how a druid PC comes to be on other planes in one of those books like Planescape or Manual of the Planes.
Yajirobe
2012-07-25, 09:25 AM
I've always thought of druidic was just like Latin in old-school priest training. In theory, in ye olde (and, according to my grandma, not so olde) times, a Brazilian priest could talk to a Swedish cardinal perfectly by the use of Latin. Why? Because both had to learn it when they were seminarist and both used it when doing the daily services.
The difference with druids is that when you teach latin to a non-initiated, you don't automatically lose your powers (which is the case of the druids). You have a "breach" of security that explains learning the secret language in the form of ex-druids or blighters, but even so, what they would gain by teaching that? They forsook their nature allegiance so they have the sole monopoly on a specific language teaching?
On the single time that I (in a stupid way) taught a non-druid Druidic, the DM made me take an Atonement and a Geas to track down and kill the "security breach". I found it to be a reasonable quest.
Nor is it for wizard. You mean that in your game spellbooks magically pop into existence?
No, part of becoming a wizard is making your own spell book.
Yes. A language you learn from Speak Language is by definition not a starting language.
Okay, that was my mistake. It makes more sense now, but I still have problems with it.
You still have not explained what the hell a mindmeld is. If it is any sort of mental communication, that is indeed changing crunch, since it affects the Silence spell
No it doesn't. Languages spoken do not affect spell casting.
being mute or deaf
Your mind is disturbed so you cannot use it.
doesn't allow someone to read your lips with Spot
This one I forgot about because I have never seen is used. There are other languages that differ in their own way.
ThiagoMartell
2012-07-25, 09:40 AM
No, part of becoming a wizard is making your own spell book.
And you figure this out how, without anyone teaching you? Please explain this to me. Where do you get materials to make your book? By RAW, no blank book is required. Which is what I meant all the time - where the hell did that book come from?
No it doesn't. Languages spoken do not affect spell casting.
My point is that you would still be able to communicate in an area of magical Silence.
Your mind is disturbed so you cannot use it.
So mindmeld is the only mental action in all of D&D that gets 'disturbed' by beind deaf or mute? That makes a lot less sense than all druids needing to learn from another druid.
This one I forgot about because I have never seen is used.
So you admit it changes crunch?
And you figure this out how, without anyone teaching you? Please explain this to me. Where do you get materials to make your book? By RAW, no blank book is required. Which is what I meant all the time - where the hell did that book come from?
Your are either given it or you make it. If you teach yourself wizardry, guess which one it is.
My point is that you would still be able to communicate in an area of magical Silence.
See below.
So mindmeld is the only mental action in all of D&D that gets 'disturbed' by beind deaf or mute? That makes a lot less sense than all druids needing to learn from another druid.
A druid is disturbed when they are cut off from a significant aspect of nature. i.e. sound, and this affect their mild meld ability. Makes sense to me.
So you admit it changes crunch?
I've had all of 10 minutes to think about it, but yes in this moment I would need to add the secret druid language that depart from the mechanical norm. Not that I am too bothered, there is always the language of the land alternative theory, so I don't have to return to the druid spontaneously teleporting to the abyss theory.
You know, I'm more inclined to just assume that WotC screwed up....again. The PHB kinda assumes (read as "really assumes, not a doubt in its mind") that you're playing in the Greyhawke universe. They also assume that no demon/devil will ever, ever be a druid, because, I mean, come on, who would do something like, I dunno, subvert a stereotype?
In reality, what should be happening is the DM should require an in-game explanation for the sudden acquisition of a book/language/ability to rage, etcetera. Yes, it's completely silly to assume that deciding to be a druid gives you this new language automagically. But, to go back to my initial point, it seems completely reasonable to me that WotC didn't actually think through the ramifications of saying "all druids learn this language." WotC has made far, far bigger mistakes in the rulebooks, and this one has a relatively easy fix, known commonly as "roleplaying."
....maybe they even assumed that the DM and the players would work together to create a believable story that matched the mechanics of what was going on.
deuxhero
2012-07-25, 12:18 PM
Given Druids are fond of keeping things the same, I fluff it as magically stagnant language originating in the super continent age.
PairO'Dice Lost
2012-07-25, 02:48 PM
Back in AD&D, there was a defined hierarchy of druids. You had to be initiated by other druids, and to advance as a druid you had to defeat your superiors and take their place, until you reached the one druid in charge of the Prime Material Plane druids; after that, you could become a druid hierarch and travel the Inner Planes. The druid order was the same in Oerth and Toril and all the other Planescape-accessible settings, too. So yes, just like Latin and the Catholic Church, there was totally one big druidic order with a central figure who mandated that all druids be taught Druidic and excommunicated anyone who taught it to an outsider. (Then again, this was also the edition where you could learn to speak Lawful Good.)
In 3e, there's no explicit hierarchy and multiclassing is much easier, but there's still the background assumption that the One Druidic Order to Rule Them All is inducting new druids and teaching them the language. So if a redeemed succubus wants to become a druid, she's "supposed" to seek one out to train her and make her take the oaths, even though by RAW she just knows Druidic and the oaths for no particular reason upon taking the level. Instead of introducing the mindmeld idea, just require prospective druids to train for a bit with existing druids and all is well.
Palanan
2012-07-25, 02:48 PM
To the OP: You're assuming the druidic language is the same language for all druids everywhere. I don't think that's the case, nor should it be.
The druids of a region, possibly a continent, have their own language which they use only among themselves. The druids of another region, another continent, have a different language which they guard in turn. The druids of the High Forest in Faerūn and the druids of the Eldeen Reaches in Eberron shouldn't be expected to speak the same tongue. They each use entirely separate languages, which they've independently adapted to serve as their proprietary speech.
So, it makes sense that each broad community or network of druids has a secret language, and "druidic" is the general term for whichever secret language is used by a particular community. That makes the most sense to me.
.
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To the OP: You're assuming the druidic language is the same language for all druids everywhere. I don't think that's the case, nor should it be.
The druids of a region, possibly a continent, have their own language which they use only among themselves. The druids of another region, another continent, have a different language which they guard in turn. The druids of the High Forest in Faerūn and the druids of the Eldeen Reaches in Eberron shouldn't be expected to speak the same tongue. They each use entirely separate languages, which they've independently adapted to serve as their proprietary speech.
So, it makes sense that each broad community or network of druids has a secret language, and "druidic" is the general term for whichever secret language is used by a particular community. That makes the most sense to me.
.
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This I accept. The problem was in the previous thread I had someone insisting that no, every druid spoke the same language and so it must mean that every culture had had some sort of contact.
Instead of introducing the mindmeld idea, just require prospective druids to train for a bit with existing druids and all is well.
And who controls this order? What efforts are being made to ally with it? To use it? What efforts are they making to remain neutral? I cannot help but feel that you have missused the word "just" in that sentence.
Downysole
2012-07-25, 03:08 PM
This I accept. The problem was in the previous thread I had someone insisting that no, every druid spoke the same language and so it must mean that every culture had had some sort of contact.
I would still stick with this approach. The kind of dialectical diversification you're talking about is what caused Spanish and French to come from Latin. Before too long, you have a language that cannot be spoken between druids from neighboring forests if the end up meeting one day. Far simpler to believe that Druidic is an un-changing tongue with no dialects that can be spoken by a druid from 3000 years ago on Faerun to a new druid succubus.
And who controls this order? What efforts are being made to ally with it? To use it? What efforts are they making to remain neutral? I cannot help but feel that you have missused the word "just" in that sentence.
The poster indicated that this order was something from AD&D. No rules for it anymore.
I would still stick with this approach. The kind of dialectical diversification you're talking about is what caused Spanish and French to come from Latin. Before too long, you have a language that cannot be spoken between druids from neighboring forests if the end up meeting one day. Far simpler to believe that Druidic is an un-changing tongue with no dialects that can be spoken by a druid from 3000 years ago on Faerun to a new druid succubus.
Simpler, but more problematic for some.
The poster indicated that this order was something from AD&D. No rules for it anymore.
But they seemed to be implying that it would be a simple matter to introduce this concept to 3.5
Kelb_Panthera
2012-07-25, 03:15 PM
Before it gets brought up again, I wanna go ahead and kill this demon druid nonsense.
No demon can become a druid because of their alignment descriptors. Having an alignment descriptor means that you are treated as being of that alignment regardless of your actual alignment for mechanical purposes. Since all demons have both the chaotic and evil subtypes they are treated as CE regardless of their actual alignment. This means that they can never become a druid. The same goes for Archons, Eladrins, and Devils.
This doesn't preclude Angels, Guardinals, Yugoloths, Inevitables, or Slaadi from becoming druids, but the idea of a succubus druid just bugged me......... and now that I think of it, this might actually make the succubus paladin illegal too.
The paladin will require further study, but Druid specifically forbids an extreme alignment so it's definitely a no-go for the above mentioned outsiders.
Before it gets brought up again, I wanna go ahead and kill this demon druid nonsense.
At best you will kill it by RAW. Nothing stopping a succubus druid in a game if the DM wants one.
No demon can become a druid because of their alignment descriptors. Having an alignment descriptor means that you are treated as being of that alignment regardless of your actual alignment for mechanical purposes.
Where is that rule?
The paladin will require further study
There are enough alternative classes for that.
Palanan
2012-07-25, 03:27 PM
Originally Posted by Downysole
The kind of dialectical diversification you're talking about is what caused Spanish and French to come from Latin.
It's pretty safe to assume that druids in a wide community, even a continental network, will remain in contact and will take rigorous steps to preserve their language from drift or other change. The real question would be how broad those networks would be geographically, which would depend on how open or closed individual communities would be.
Assuming there's decent interchange, you could make a case for each continent having its own separate druidic language, although strong ecotones (boundaries between ecosystems and biomes) could also be language barriers if the druids don't cross between them. The druids scattered across a polar ice cap might be so insular that they would never have anything to do with druids from other biomes, and so they might have a completely different language from the broader network of druids in temperate and boreal forests.
Kelb_Panthera
2012-07-25, 03:34 PM
Where is that rule?
MM pgs 307, 308-309, 310, and 311. The descriptions of the alignment subtypes.
Upon further review, the succubus paladin is legit. Since paladin requires that you be LG but doesn't actually say you can't be any other alignment if you somehow count as more than one alignment, the fact that a LG succubus counts as being all four extreme alignments doesn't stop her from being a paladin of honor. In-fact, she could multiclass as all four paladin variants legally. She'd end up falling prodigiously often, but she could do it.
Wyntonian
2012-07-25, 03:40 PM
WOAHWOAHWOAHWOAH
What the hell.
How DARE you suggest that Wizards of the Coast, the greatest company on Earth, nay, in the Solar system, the pinnacle of all that is good and the driving force behind all advancements of mankind, make an oversight?
Clearly, they spend millennia in their own fast-time demiplanes carefully calculating every possible interactions of each rule, no matter how infinitesimally minor, in the minds of every and every person with half a frontal lobe who may pick up one of their rulebooks. The simple fact that you seem to think they are in any way fallible is enough to label yourself as an enemy of humanity. For shame, sir. Have you no respect?
Yeah. They made a campaign world-specific assumption on a tiny little rule. It doesn't work in every setting. Congratulations, I guess, on pointing this out. Well done?
While you're accepting applause and feeling brilliant, I'll go play a game. Have fun! I know I will.
Note that I don't intend this to be insulting. I just don't understand why something so minor warrants discussion for any sake other than putting others down.
PairO'Dice Lost
2012-07-25, 03:44 PM
And who controls this order? What efforts are being made to ally with it? To use it? What efforts are they making to remain neutral? I cannot help but feel that you have missused the word "just" in that sentence.
Having one unilateral druid organization per Prime Material Plane is no more problematic than having one, say, Church of Pelor per PMP. If someone wants to become a cleric of Pelor, they have to go to their local temple of Pelor or talk to their village priest or whatever to be inducted; there may by minor variations in worship between temples, but Pelor is real and active, his clerics ask him questions about dogma, and the Church is generally monolithic. Again, by RAW, a commoner who multiclasses into cleric just suddenly learns how to wear armor, how to pray for spells, and so forth, but flavor-wise a cleric of a deity (as opposed to a cleric of a cause) is generally part of an organization.
If it helps, you could think of it as cleric:favored soul::druid:spirit shaman. It's entirely possible to channel the power of your deity or of nature without any sort of formal induction, but that just makes you a favored soul or spirit shaman. Anyone who wants to gain the extra perks of an organized religion (armor and domains for a cleric, Druidic and wild shape for a druid) has to actually go out of their way to join the organization.
MM pgs 307, 308-309, 310, and 311. The descriptions of the alignment subtypes.
Hurray for not picking and linguistic gymnastics. You are treated as that alignment for anything that effects you base on your aliment. Since effect isn't defined, it can be ruled under RAW that meeting a class requirement is not an effect and therefor the succubus can be a druid.
Note that I don't intend this to be insulting. I just don't understand why something so minor warrants discussion for any sake other than putting others down.
Well amongst other things it has led to some interesting theories on how the druid organizations can actually work in a game. So it has its uses. And wait, you cannot automatically see a reason for the idea of granting a limited mind meld to a core class?
WOAHWOAHWOAHWOAH
How DARE you suggest that Wizards of the Coast, the greatest company on Earth, nay, in the Solar system, the pinnacle of all that is good and the driving force behind all advancements of mankind, make an oversight?
^ What he said. Fluff is fluff. If it doesn't suit you, change it. If it doesn't make sense, make it make sense. If it bothers you so incredibly much that it doesn't make sense, and you can't bear to change the rules....dunno what to tell you. It's a problem as written because WotC made a mistake. There is, however, a solution to this (fairly minor) problem- Rule 0.
...don't call Oberoni. The auto-language IS a problem. I'm just saying the best/easiest/most sensible fix for it is Rule 0.
Tvtyrant
2012-07-25, 03:47 PM
Actually, nature simply teaches you the language when you become one with it. That is also why you lose your powers if you teach it to someone else, because nature takes them away.
"The easiest solution is usually the best one."
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bf/Glados.png
^ What he said. Fluff is fluff. If it doesn't suit you, change it. If it doesn't make sense, make it make sense. If it bothers you so incredibly much that it doesn't make sense, and you can't bear to change the rules....dunno what to tell you. It's a problem as written because WotC made a mistake. There is, however, a solution to this (fairly minor) problem- Rule 0.
...don't call Oberoni. The auto-language IS a problem. I'm just saying the best/easiest/most sensible fix for it is Rule 0.
Or you know, the gain the language from the land. A solution proposed on this thread. Sure you could change the rules, but its it also fun to make fluff that works, is sensible, and obeys the rules to the letter?
Downysole
2012-07-25, 03:52 PM
Actually, nature simply teaches you the language when you become one with it. That is also why you lose your powers if you teach it to someone else, because nature takes them away.
"The easiest solution is usually the best one."
Yes!
Common language to all the worlds taught through nature. Everyone speaks the same thing, you learn it through your link.
Kelb_Panthera
2012-07-25, 03:59 PM
Hurray for not picking and linguistic gymnastics. You are treated as that alignment for anything that effects you base on your aliment. Since effect isn't defined, it can be ruled under RAW that meeting a class requirement is not an effect and therefor the succubus can be a druid.
If your argument is that gaining supernatural power from a source outside of your own body isn't an effect. I really can't help you, and I don't think anyone else can either. Divorcing keywords in the game from their definitions as words in the english language turns your game into soup.
If your argument is that gaining supernatural power from a source outside of your own body isn't an effect. I really can't help you, and I don't think anyone else can either. Divorcing keywords in the game from their definitions as words in the english language turns your game into soup.
Meh, each to their own. I honestly don't consider it a big deal to assume affect means spells, magical weapons and substances. Sure, taking a level in druid has an effect on you, but is the checking for alignment an effect? Does the process affect you? I don't see it as indefensible to say no.
Palanan
2012-07-25, 04:22 PM
Originally Posted by Downysole
Common language to all the worlds taught through nature. Everyone speaks the same thing, you learn it through your link.
Except that every world has unique species, unique ecosystems, unique landforms and biomes, and so the "nature" of each world will be fundamentally different.
Taught through nature if you will, but each "natural language" would be unique to its own world, or even to specific biomes within each world.
Tvtyrant
2012-07-25, 05:33 PM
Except that every world has unique species, unique ecosystems, unique landforms and biomes, and so the "nature" of each world will be fundamentally different.
Taught through nature if you will, but each "natural language" would be unique to its own world, or even to specific biomes within each world.
Why? The differences between Earth now and the Earth 4 billion years ago are as large as the Plane of Fire and the modern Earth, and those are the same nature. In your campaign they might be different, but I don't see any inherent reason that local differences, or even planar differences, would change the fundamental nature of nature.
Palanan
2012-07-25, 06:01 PM
Yup, in my campaign they're very different, and I think we have a very different definition of "nature."
If you're thinking "primordial energies of the cosmos," manifested through different conduits at different times, I can grok that, just not the direction I'm going.
:smalltongue:
Quietus
2012-07-25, 07:11 PM
Yes!
Common language to all the worlds taught through nature. Everyone speaks the same thing, you learn it through your link.
More than that, I would even go as far as to say that you need that link to properly speak Druidic. Perhaps it's not something you can "get" normally, the language is too complicated, but two druids speaking are, in fact, speaking gibberish, which is translated for both by Nature. Even beginning to teach Druidic to a non-druid is enough to cut you off.. and then, assuming SOMEHOW you manage to teach it anyway, the person who's learned the language still can't speak it properly without a level in Druid themselves, to form that necessary link.
Palanan
2012-07-25, 09:26 PM
I like that, and it's a cool concept in itself, but you've just put the kibosh on some of the more elaborate Fochlucan Lyrist builds.
:smalltongue:
SiuiS
2012-07-25, 09:36 PM
Even ignoring how multiclassing can screw with the fluff learning of classes, how has this secret language managed to make its way into every creature who takes druid as their first level?
Druid was designed a a specific priest of a specific albeit vague religion. Every priest of this religion learns the language of their liturgy regardless of whether they can phonate the sounds involved.
Or do mute people in your games lose the ability to have languages entirely?
Druid was designed a a specific priest of a specific albeit vague religion. Every priest of this religion learns the language of their liturgy regardless of whether they can phonate the sounds involved.
Then it should have been a PrC. And wait, are you suggestion a random number of druids speak but do not understand the druidic language?
ThiagoMartell
2012-07-25, 11:38 PM
Your are either given it or you make it. If you teach yourself wizardry, guess which one it is.
You still haven't answered my question. How does the book pop into existence? There are plenty of societes where you can't have paper. How does a fire elemental wizard get his book? How does a locatah wizard get his book? Would they need to leave their home environment to get one?
A druid is disturbed when they are cut off from a significant aspect of nature. i.e. sound, and this affect their mild meld ability. Makes sense to me.
So when they are cut off from another significant aspect of nature (light), do they lose it as well?
I've had all of 10 minutes to think about it, but yes in this moment I would need to add the secret druid language that depart from the mechanical norm. Not that I am too bothered, there is always the language of the land alternative theory, so I don't have to return to the druid spontaneously teleporting to the abyss theory.
10 minutes? That's simply not true, you had form 9:24 to 11:51. More than 2 hours.
To the OP: You're assuming the druidic language is the same language for all druids everywhere. I don't think that's the case, nor should it be.
The druids of a region, possibly a continent, have their own language which they use only among themselves. The druids of another region, another continent, have a different language which they guard in turn. The druids of the High Forest in Faerūn and the druids of the Eldeen Reaches in Eberron shouldn't be expected to speak the same tongue. They each use entirely separate languages, which they've independently adapted to serve as their proprietary speech.
So, it makes sense that each broad community or network of druids has a secret language, and "druidic" is the general term for whichever secret language is used by a particular community. That makes the most sense to me.
.
.
That would be like catholic priests in Brazil speaking "brazilian latin" and "spanish latin" in Spain. It's simply not what it happens.
Druidic is a language used only among druids. I really doubt it would stray too far from it's core considering it's limited use. There are very few druids around in any given case. It's simply not enough people to justify a language changing.
You still haven't answered my question. How does the book pop into existence? There are plenty of societes where you can't have paper. How does a fire elemental wizard get his book? How does a locatah wizard get his book? Would they need to leave their home environment to get one?
They would make them out of what ever substances where available in their home plane. Or take the variant level that removes the need for a spell book.
So when they are cut off from another significant aspect of nature (light), do they lose it as well?
No, because there are blind creatures. And whilst their are deaf creatures, such living things thing will have an ability to sense vibrations, which is similar to sound.
10 minutes? That's simply not true, you had form 9:24 to 11:51. More than 2 hours.
Yes, because when ThiagoMartell finds a minor mechanical problem with an idea of mine that has a reasonable chance of never coming up what so ever in an actual game, I immediately put all my waking hours and mental resources into solving that problem, because this serious
ThiagoMartell
2012-07-26, 12:06 AM
They would make them out of what ever substances where available in their home plane. Or take the variant level that removes the need for a spell book.
Removes the need for a spellbook? I've never seen such thing. Variant spellbooks, yes. No need for them? Never seen it.
And again, there are no rules for making a spellbook out of fire.
No, because there are blind creatures. And whilst their are deaf creatures, such living things thing will have an ability to sense vibrations, which is similar to sound.
Actually, sound is vibration.
This still does not adress mute creatures. They are natural and from your explanation they should be able to use the mindmeld.
Yes, because when ThiagoMartell finds a minor mechanical problem with an idea of mine that has a reasonable chance of never coming up what so ever in an actual game, I immediately put all my waking hours and mental resources into solving that problem, because this serious
So no one casts Silence or uses Spot in your games? :smallconfused:
Well, if you don't want to think your idea through and if you resent input into improving it, I guess there's no point in posting in this thread. If you just wanted people to say "wow, cool" you should have said so in the OP: "not interested in constructive criticism".
Removes the need for a spellbook? I've never seen such thing. Variant spellbooks, yes. No need for them? Never seen it.
And your ignorance on the matter is meant to mean what to me exactly? It's from dragon magazine and they trade their familiar for no spell book. Spells go in head.
And again, there are no rules for making a spellbook out of fire.
Then fire elemental wizards would have to use the above variant.=
Actually, sound is vibration.
I know. I also know that all deaf creatures I know of (snakes mostly), have some ability to otherwise sense vibration.
This still does not adress mute creatures. They are natural and from your explanation they should be able to use the mindmeld.
How many mute creatures are there? As a side note, they could also use drow sign language.
So no one casts Silence or uses Spot in your games? :smallconfused:
Spot checks? Yes. Spot checks to read lips? Never. Again, silence cast? Yeah. Silence that made communication impossibly? Well, yeah, in the spell area, until the PCs moved out.
If you just wanted people to say "wow, cool" you should have said so in the OP: "not interested in constructive criticism".
Why so bitter? Also, no. I'll admit, I am not interesting in the criticism that involves niche situations in an already pretty small part of the game. I don't find it that constructive. But if you want to provide, that's your right. In any case I was far more interested in how people dealt with the druidic language.
Psyren
2012-07-26, 08:02 AM
This I accept. The problem was in the previous thread I had someone insisting that no, every druid spoke the same language and so it must mean that every culture had had some sort of contact.
Why must it mean that?
There's other sources for a language besides cuture - the very elemental/natural powers that all druids learn to make contact with could impart the language.
I could certainly imagine cultures putting their own little spin on things - much in the way that Spanish sounds different in Spain, Mexico and Argentina - but the fundamentals would still be consistent enough that any group of druids could communicate (and parse each other's meaning if/when slang creeps in.)
Why must it mean that?
Ask the user who made that claim in the other thread.
Kelb_Panthera
2012-07-26, 01:04 PM
Ask the user who made that claim in the other thread.
If you mean the thread I think you do, then that argument isn't valid, because that poster was discussing spellcraft as a language. We're talking about an actual language in this thread. He's trying to shoe-horn a series of universal principles into a universal language. Frankly I think his concept is fundamentally flawed, but I'll save further comment on that matter for that thread.
nyjastul69
2012-07-26, 05:34 PM
All druids learning the same language seems a tad bit more realistic than all the human cultures of the world speaking the same common tongue. Many things are simplified in D&D to facilitate play, I believe this is one of them. YMMV
ThiagoMartell
2012-07-26, 10:41 PM
And your ignorance on the matter is meant to mean what to me exactly? It's from dragon magazine and they trade their familiar for no spell book. Spells go in head.
It just means you should tell where that came from, basically.
And... Dragon Magazine, really?
I know. I also know that all deaf creatures I know of (snakes mostly), have some ability to otherwise sense vibration.
You do know this is a point against your hypothesis, right?
How many mute creatures are there? As a side note, they could also use drow sign language.
Drow sign language is a different language. What is the point of mentioning it?
Also, now you're saying there are more tanarii druids than mute people of any race?!
Why so bitter? Also, no. I'll admit, I am not interesting in the criticism that involves niche situations in an already pretty small part of the game. I don't find it that constructive. But if you want to provide, that's your right. In any case I was far more interested in how people dealt with the druidic language.
People deal with it by using it as intended: as a secret language you learn as part of entering the secret society of druids.
Also, you present a hypothesis based on a corner case (tanari druid) and get upset when people mention (much more general) corner cases about it?!
It just means you should tell where that came from, basically.
Then just say that.
You do know this is a point against your hypothesis, right?
No it isn't. Being deaf is natural. Being deaf without having any other way of sensing vibrations isn't.
Drow sign language is a different language. What is the point of mentioning it?
Also, now you're saying there are more tanarii druids than mute people of any race?!
When since you like following RAW unflinchingly when it supports your case, tell me: by RAW, how many mute people are there in a race?
People deal with it by using it as intended: as a secret language you learn as part of entering the secret society of druids.
Maybe, but as this thread has shown there are other ways of dealing with it. And since I started this thread because I didn't like the default way of doing, care to share with me what you feel repeating this to me does for the thread?
Also, you present a hypothesis based on a corner case (tanari druid) and get upset when people mention (much more general) corner cases about it?!
Wrong. I used the tenari druid as an example. My problem with the druid secret language isn't based off of that, it was just the most extreme case I could think of, plus I liked the idea.
ThiagoMartell
2012-07-27, 07:04 AM
No it isn't. Being deaf is natural. Being deaf without having any other way of sensing vibrations isn't.
Silence doesn nothing to prevent you from sensing vibration. Tremorsense works just fine in an area of silence.
When since you like following RAW unflinchingly when it supports your case, tell me: by RAW, how many mute people are there in a race?
...When did I ever mention following RAW unflinchingly?
Funnily enough, I'd like to remember you were the first one to mention RAW here. When I told you that the druid fluff means they are all members of the same secret society you said it was 'not a RAW requirement'.
I'm not the one mentioning RAW, man. You are. I'm just telling you why I don't think your refluff is consistent. Since you obviously don't want any help making it consistent, I'll just drop the issue.
Maybe, but as this thread has shown there are other ways of dealing with it. And since I started this thread because I didn't like the default way of doing, care to share with me what you feel repeating this to me does for the thread?
It's a way of pointing out why I don't think there is anything wrong the standard fluff.
Basically, your problem with Druidic only arised if you choose to ignore the druid fluff that every one of them is member of the same organization.
Wrong. I used the tenari druid as an example. My problem with the druid secret language isn't based off of that, it was just the most extreme case I could think of, plus I liked the idea.
Like I said before plenty of times, your 'problem' simply does not match the druid fluff at all. If you stick to the present fluff, no problem arises.
...When did I ever mention following RAW unflinchingly?
Funnily enough, I'd like to remember you were the first one to mention RAW here. When I told you that the druid fluff means they are all members of the same secret society you said it was 'not a RAW requirement'.
I'm not the one mentioning RAW, man. You are.
You sure?
And again, there are no rules for making a spellbook out of fire.
I eagerly await your explanation as to why this is different.
Like I said before plenty of times, your 'problem' simply does not match the druid fluff at all. If you stick to the present fluff, no problem arises.
But as should be abundantly clear by now, I'm not using that fluff and instead choosing to fluff the druid as available to any creature capable of taking class levels.
DeusMortuusEst
2012-07-27, 09:34 AM
This I accept. The problem was in the previous thread I had someone insisting that no, every druid spoke the same language and so it must mean that every culture had had some sort of contact.
You know, this is the thing that I'm most intrigued by.
How come that it's so hard to believe that in a world where druids can transform into birds, fish, elemental beings, wind (www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWalk.htm), or into creatures (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm) capable of teleporting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/archon.html) and see across great distances (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scrying.htm) all druids everywhere have some sort of connection...
Psyren
2012-07-27, 09:37 AM
It goes beyond the language, too. All druids everywhere have the same oaths against e.g. metal gear.
Clearly some extranormal force is keeping tabs on them, otherwise how would the universe know when they decide to put on a steel codpiece? It's a simple explanation to me, to have that unifying force be the ultimate source of Druidic.
You know, this is the thing that I'm most intrigued by.
How come that it's so hard to believe that in a world where druids can transform into birds, fish, elemental beings, wind (www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWalk.htm), or into creatures (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm) capable of teleporting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/archon.html) and see across great distances (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scrying.htm) all druids everywhere have some sort of connection...
Because it needs to be addressed. What sort of connection do they have? Do druids find each other more easily? (Bonus to tracking, can they concentrate and get a direction) Can they recognize each other? Do they gain bonus to sense motive on other druids? What about shapeshifter druids? What about a druid with aberrant wildshape feat? Why are only druids connected when all the other classes likewise share abilities?
ThiagoMartell
2012-07-27, 09:40 AM
I eagerly await your explanation as to why this is different.
You really don't see how that is different? Let's see fact progression again.
1- You claim druidic doesn't make sense, so you need to 'refluff' it as a mindmeld.
2- I point out how the fluff says they're a secret society.
3- You point out that by RAW anyone can take druid levels.
4- I point you that your stance creates more questions then it answers, leading into a lot more places where it simply does not make sense, mentioning the fire elemental wizard.
5- You claim the wizard would make a spellbook out of natural materials in his plane.
6- I point out that, according to RAW (which you chose as a metric back in 3) it makes no sense
All I'm doing is keeping the discussion following the metric you have laid down. Please, don't accuse me of 'sticking to RAW than abandoning', because that's what you have been doing.
But as should be abundantly clear by now, I'm not using that fluff and instead choosing to fluff the druid as available to any creature capable of taking class levels.
This is where communication failed. You never said "I want to refluff druidic into something else, because that's what I want!". You kept saying the standard fluff doesn't make any sense... when not only it does make sense, it raises less questions than your proposition.
You have all the right to refluff something because you want to do it, man. But if you keep trying to justify it by saying the standard fluff 'doesn't make sense', you can be sure someone is going to poke holes on it.
It goes beyond the language, too. All druids everywhere have the same oaths against e.g. metal gear.
Clearly some extranormal force is keeping tabs on them, otherwise how would the universe know when they decide to put on a steel codpiece? It's a simple explanation to me, to have that unifying force be the ultimate source of Druidic.
Some force is keeping tabs on them, either nature or a god. Not only is that crystal clear, that is RAW.
Druidic is an acquired skill, though. Even if you lose your druid powers, you still keep the knowledge of that language.
All I'm doing is keeping the discussion following the metric you have laid down. Please, don't accuse me of 'sticking to RAW than abandoning', because that's what you have been doing.
No your not, because you brought up mute people which isn't RAW. Say "But you started it" all you want, you were still happy to stick to RAW until it benefited you otherwise.
And whilst we are on the matter, how did you get "Only RAW for this thread" out of "The mentor requirement isn't RAW, even though the PrC mechanics would have allowed it to be so"?
This is where communication failed. You never said "I want to refluff druidic into something else, because that's what I want!". You kept saying the standard fluff doesn't make any sense... when not only it does make sense, it raises less questions than your proposition.
You have all the right to refluff something because you want to do it, man. But if you keep trying to justify it by saying the standard fluff 'doesn't make sense', you can be sure someone is going to poke holes on it.
Wait, that wasn't obvious from the first post with the tanari druid? The aberrant and dragon druids?
Psyren
2012-07-27, 09:55 AM
Some force is keeping tabs on them, either nature or a god. Not only is that crystal clear, that is RAW.
Druidic is an acquired skill, though. Even if you lose your druid powers, you still keep the knowledge of that language.
I never said it wasn't. After all, the fact that you can teach it to others (and fall for doing so) means that learning the language is independent of this force/entity.
My point was merely that the original source of that language can easily be explained with that very same force. This would explain why all druids everywhere learn the same language, even as all druids everywhere must swear the same oaths.
So in summary, Druidic is definitely a normal language, but the fact that it is known to all druids regardless of background can be explained. i.e. I'm uncertain of the reason for Boci's objection and I don't think Mindmelds/Metasense are needed to explain it.
ThiagoMartell
2012-07-27, 10:02 AM
I never said it wasn't. After all, the fact that you can teach it to others (and fall for doing so) means that learning the language is independent of this force/entity.
My point was merely that the original source of that language can easily be explained with that very same force. This would explain why all druids everywhere learn the same language, even as all druids everywhere must swear the same oaths.
So in summary, Druidic is definitely a normal language, but the fact that it is known to all druids regardless of background can be explained. i.e. I'm uncertain of the reason for Boci's objection and I don't think Mindmelds/Metasense are needed to explain it.
Ah, I see, now I understand what you mean.
While that makes sense, without the druidic secret society thing, it can create a few weird places. For example, you can be a druid of Pelor. But Pelor does not speak Druidic, so how did he teach you? Well, it could well be someone working under him.
Yeah, I still prefer the official fluff, but your explanation is a lot better than giving druids telepathy.
Psyren
2012-07-27, 10:10 AM
For example, you can be a druid of Pelor. But Pelor does not speak Druidic, so how did he teach you?
Actually, according to Deities and Demigods (pg. 90) he does speak Druidic. (Along with everything else.)
"Understand, speak and read all languages..."
But I know what you were getting at. Consider that Druids, no matter who their deity is, do not fall for failing to revere that deity (except in FR.) Instead, they fall for failing to revere nature, which means again that something other than the deity itself is keeping tabs on them. So the deity again isn't necessarily the source of the language (even if s/he knows it.)
DeusMortuusEst
2012-07-27, 10:16 AM
Because it needs to be addressed. What sort of connection do they have? Do druids find each other more easily? (Bonus to tracking, can they concentrate and get a direction) Can they recognize each other? Do they gain bonus to sense motive on other druids? What about shapeshifter druids? What about a druid with aberrant wildshape feat? Why are only druids connected when all the other classes likewise share abilities?
Simply scry for 'A druid that doesn't know druidic' then teleport. Problem solved.
Wizard spellbooks can be solved similarly, why all monks and fighters behave the same remains a mystery.
It goes beyond the language, too. All druids everywhere have the same oaths against e.g. metal gear.
Clearly some extranormal force is keeping tabs on them, otherwise how would the universe know when they decide to put on a steel codpiece? It's a simple explanation to me, to have that unifying force be the ultimate source of Druidic.
I gotta be honest, I don't really like this one. It makes sense I guess, and on the plus side their is president with the paladin's falling, but on the flip side, paladin's falling mechanics. If I have to rank them, I'd go:
1. Planar factions for the druids. So a succubus druid would get a modified spell list to reflect the fact. I just like it.
2. Language of the land. This is similar to yours, but limits the connection to the language alone.
3. Yours. Its okay, but I don't like the idea of a force, even if it is only semi sentient, keeping tabs on all druids. I always preferred the "interferes with the natural flow" for why the cannot wear armour anyway.
4. Stagnant language from the super continent era. This doesn't really change anything, but its based off a super continent theory, so it has that going for it.
If I missed any tell me.
Psyren
2012-07-27, 12:19 PM
I gotta be honest, I don't really like this one. It makes sense I guess, and on the plus side their is president with the paladin's falling, but on the flip side, paladin's falling mechanics. If I have to rank them, I'd go:
1. Planar factions for the druids. So a succubus druid would get a modified spell list to reflect the fact. I just like it.
2. Language of the land. This is similar to yours, but limits the connection to the language alone.
3. Yours. Its okay, but I don't like the idea of a force, even if it is only semi sentient, keeping tabs on all druids. I always preferred the "interferes with the natural flow" for why the cannot wear armour anyway.
4. Stagnant language from the super continent era. This doesn't really change anything, but its based off a super continent theory, so it has that going for it.
If I missed any tell me.
1) is not RAW, and not just because of the hoops you'd have to jump through to get a Succubus to qualify for Druid. The Druid list is the Druid list, no matter your race.
2) I'm fine with the land itself being the teacher too (though there are druids of the sky and sea.) So long as the source is something all druids can be said to have contact with.
3) If it was simple interference/disruption, it would go away when they put the metal down - they wouldn't need atonement (which explicitly requires you to be sorry) to fix it. Even if you argue that the atonement spell is just setting their energy back to what it should be, "repentance" implies there is an arbiter/observer of some kind that the druid has to appease/mollify.
Compare to Bards/Barbarians - they don't answer to anyone, and it shows - if they become Lawful, all they have to do is go Neutral/Chaotic again and they can pick up where they left off without needing to be sorry about it.
4) Why would they lose their powers for teaching something that any sufficiently-learned historian could pick up, though?
1) is not RAW, and not just because of the hoops you'd have to jump through to get a Succubus to qualify for Druid. The Druid list is the Druid list, no matter your race.
I know, but racial substitution levels exist, and this is a similar idea. Plus whilst I like to remain in RAW (its part of the challenge), I'll take the option I like best, and if its a house rule (or the DM using rule 0 if you distinguish between the two), then so be it.
Psyren
2012-07-27, 12:28 PM
At the beginning of this thread you asked "how does that work?" If you're going to houserule/homebrew, it works however you want it to work and there's no point in discussing anything.
At the beginning of this thread you asked "how does that work?" If you're going to houserule/homebrew, it works however you want it to work and there's no point in discussing anything.
What the ****? Where did that come from? I'm started to get annoyed by people insisting I've been insisting on RAW. I asked "how does it work". I never said "poorly, here's a cool house rule that can fix it" would not be an acceptable answer. And "no point"? Really? Yeah, there was obviously no point. I mean if house rule are involved, why ask the internet? Maybe because someone else could think of a house rule that I wouldn't have.
Psyren
2012-07-27, 12:37 PM
What the ****? Where did that come from?
One of the ideas this led me to was that the druidic secret language. Every creature who takes a level as a druid can speak it, but how does that work? How can every culture produce druids who speak the exact same language? You could try add "within reasons" and alter the strict RAW accordingly, but where do you draw the line? All humanoids? All humanoids and monstrous humanoids? Do you cut out aberrations, dragons, outsiders?
This was the RAW portion,
One idea I had was that the druidic secret language could be a sort of mind meld. This would allow you to obey RAW, and I know of at least one instance of precedent in fantasy for such a thing (in Priestess in White). What do you think?
This was the homebrew portion - which you incorrectly stated would obey RAW. (A "mindmeld" would not follow the rules for spoken languages, such as listen and spot checks to be overheard or lip-read respectively.)
Your responses related mainly to the RAW portion since you were asking questions up there. I can't speak for everyone but I assumed you were legitimately asking those questions.
This was the RAW portion,
This was the homebrew portion - which you incorrectly stated would obey RAW. (A "mindmeld" would not follow the rules for spoken languages, such as listen and spot checks to be overheard or lip-read respectively.)
Your responses related mainly to the RAW portion since you were asking questions up there. I can't speak for everyone but I assumed you were legitimately asking those questions.
I was legitimately asking those questions, buts it not my fault you assumed that "One answer is to house rule" was off the table. Hell, language from the land does answer those questions, and it obeys RAW. Plus I liked it, I just happened to like the house rule option better because I think it will lead to the best results in game.
How does me accepting a house rule solution means I wasn't asking those questions legitimately?
Psyren
2012-07-27, 03:06 PM
I didn't assume anything was off the table. I was simply addressing the RAW portion of your query.
To "alter the RAW," you first have to know what the RAW is. Druidic, by RAW, is an ordinary spoken/written language, just one that happens to be secret and has consequences for Druids if they teach it to non-Druids. It is not a form of telepathic or otherwise metaphysical communication.
I didn't and don't have anything to say about the houserule portion, except that I'm not sure what there is to discuss. If you like it and want to rule it that way go for it.
To "alter the RAW," you first have to know what the RAW is.
Thanks, I, already knew that. It borderline tautology. But thanks all the same, I think. I know I mistakenly said mind meld would obey RAW, but that doesn't mean I have no idea how to homebrew or use house rules.
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