[3.P] Alchemist: Bottled Living Spells

[Psyren]

So the Pathfinder Alchemist has an interesting discovery called Bottled Ooze. Normally, I'd say this discovery is pretty weak - after all, a CR 4 ooze isn't terribly powerful at ECL 10 (when you gain access to 4th-level extracts.)

But then I remembered that Living Spells (from Eberron) are also oozes. Brought into Pathfinder, these have the potential to make this discovery, if not significantly more powerful, at least a lot more interesting. Since the alchemist can create any ooze in the game (CR 6 and below - see the living spell CR formula), I now have a class that can create living spells. Though I would probably be limited to 3rd-level spells, they could conceivably come from any caster's list (subject to the rules of creating living spells below.)

And so I turn to the playground - does anyone have any fun ideas for CR 6 or less Living Spells? And does anyone have any ideas (whether in PF or 3.5) that would allow me to gain control of the oozes I make, preferably without losing caster levels?


Sample math in spoiler - Living Calm Emotions:

Living Spell CR formula (ECS 295): Level of highest spell in ooze + 1/2 spell's caster level rounded down, minimum 1 + 1/2 sum of all other spell's CLs in ooze (if any.)

So for example, a Living Calm Emotions using minimum CL (3) would be a CR 3 ooze (2nd level spell + {CL 3} = 2 + (3/2 round down) = 2+1 = 3) and thus require a 3rd-level extract to prepare. This ooze would prevent any attackers it engulfs from taking aggressive actions unless they succeed at a DC 13 will save (10 + spell level + Ooze's con modifier = 10 + 2 + 1).

As a rules reminder - Living Spells can only be made from a spell that creates an area or effect, so long as that effect is not already a creature.

Final question: the wording of Bottled Ooze is unclear on this point. Do you have to choose the specific type of ooze in advance, or can you choose it on the fly - when you "uncork the bottle" so to speak?


Changed title to be less ambiguous (extracts are "bottled spells" too.)

[The Redwolf]

Does the ooze stay around and you get the effect of the spell or is it a one-off?

[dextercorvia]

If we are porting in Living Spell from 3.5, then we can look at Sublime Chord. Sublime Chords can technically cast 4th and 5th Bard or Sorcerer/Wizard level spells with a CL of 2. Similarly a Nar Demonbinder gets a couple of other spells at those levels (Plane Shift, Dismissal at 4th), with a CL of 2.

You can pick up any 4th level domain spell from Divine Crusader, and 4th level cleric spell from Ur-Priest(Enter as an Ex-Cleric, Factotum, or whatever).

[The Redwolf]

I was thinking something like darkness if the ooze stays around, because then you have them all obscured and it sits there biting their ankles. If you're lucky then the miss chance will make them take a few rounds to kill it off. Grease could be entertaining to use as well, and if you can get the technicality of it summon swarm might be interesting. I mean, the swarm takes up an area so you might be able to use that. Obscuring mist could work kinda like darkness, you could make it a zone of truth which could be amusing in a conversation, I mean I've just been looking at spell lists and quite a few jump out to me, so it probably wouldn't be hard to find fun uses for this.

[dextercorvia]

1st level: Sticky Floor is about as good as it gets. Immobilized on failed save, Entangled on a passed save.

4th level: Solid Fog, Enervation

5th level: Cloudkill, Symbol of Sleep,

[Larpus]

I agree, this discovery is severely lacking in effect, power and versatility...I'd go as far as say it's the one worst discovery.

This change might actually make it something at least useable, so I fully support it.

As for when you choose the ooze, it seems that it's at the time of preparation, just as with a spell, it specifically mentions "which he can prepare for use as an extract", so that's my interpretation.

[Psyren]

Does the ooze stay around and you get the effect of the spell or is it a one-off?

It sticks around. And the spell goes off every time the ooze slams, or every round the target is engulfed.

Living Darkness is a fantastic idea. Deeper Darkness would be even better - in PF, it can potentially shut off darkvision!


1st level: Sticky Floor is about as good as it gets. Immobilized on failed save, Entangled on a passed save.

Sounds great, where is that from?

Living Grease might be fun as well.

Come to think of it, any no-save or partial-save spells would be good choices for this.


My one problem is that you'd be stuck with Medium oozes. I don't think the Alchemist can get the CL high enough pre-epic for larger ones.

[dextercorvia]

Sticky Floor is in RotD -- Duration is hour per level, too. If I get the interaction between the two, it would be like the target couldn't leave the area, and so would be at least entangled for an hour.

Medium is fine. You can get by just fine with a CL1 Living Enervation (CR4).

[Karoht]

Buff Spells seem like fun candidates, probably not worth the effort though.

Inflict/Cure spells seem like good candidates, entirely depending on the party.

Grease would be hilarious. If you hit it with a weapon, would it treat the weapon as though it had the Greased property, in theory making it easier to disarm?

Not sure about spell levels, just going to toss some ideas out there. I'm very certain that these are all level 4 or less, mostly less.
Hypnotism and Sleep? Color Spray?
Any of the Symbol of [blank] spells would be fun.
Flare (AoE Daze, level 1) would be funny.
Sonic Burst (AoE Damage + Possible Stun?)
Consecrate/Desecrate, Hallow/Unhallow, Holy Smite/Unholy Blight
Stone Call (2D6 Bludgeoning (no save) in a huge (40ft radius) AoE and terrain becomes rough so no charging) every slam attack? OWWW. So what if it kills the other slimes or itself.
Stone Spike (10ft by 10ft patches of spikes on the ground, could be fluffed as broken glass, the ooze is basically liquid glass)
Sleet Storm

[The Redwolf]

It sticks around. And the spell goes off every time the ooze slams, or every round the target is engulfed.

Now that, is interesting. That could be pretty nice then...is there any way to put a mass inflict of some form into one? That could be pretty terrible, especially if you did one with a darkness or deeper darkness one because then it's more likely that it'll survive long enough to trigger more than once.

[dextercorvia]

Frost Breath and Shadow Spray are both level 2 daze spells. They target Ref and Fort respectively. Frost Breath deals some cold damage, and Shadow Spray deals 4 points of Strength damage.

Vitriolic Sphere deals 6d6 per round for 3 rounds on a failed save.

Downdraft could have its uses.

[Qwertystop]

Hmmm...

Thing is, the spell is cast on whatever the Ooze engulfs or attacks whenever it engulfs or attacks anything. Effects that have a duration will therefore last after the Ooze moves on.

So if it's a Darkness spell, it wouldn't just be a cloud of darkness. It would leave a bubble whenever it touches something.

Keep that in mind. Grease that moves to attack your enemies is one thing, but puddles of the stuff everywhere can get pretty annoying.

[Angry Bob]

Buff Spells seem like fun candidates, probably not worth the effort though.

Inflict/Cure spells seem like good candidates, entirely depending on the party.

Grease would be hilarious. If you hit it with a weapon, would it treat the weapon as though it had the Greased property, in theory making it easier to disarm?

Not sure about spell levels, just going to toss some ideas out there. I'm very certain that these are all level 4 or less, mostly less.
Hypnotism and Sleep? Color Spray?
Any of the Symbol of [blank] spells would be fun.
Flare (AoE Daze, level 1) would be funny.
Sonic Burst (AoE Damage + Possible Stun?)
Consecrate/Desecrate, Hallow/Unhallow, Holy Smite/Unholy Blight
Stone Call (2D6 Bludgeoning (no save) in a huge (40ft radius) AoE and terrain becomes rough so no charging) every slam attack? OWWW. So what if it kills the other slimes or itself.
Stone Spike (10ft by 10ft patches of spikes on the ground, could be fluffed as broken glass, the ooze is basically liquid glass)
Sleet Storm

Important note: It doesn't exactly fire the spell each time it slams, it causes the target of the slam to be affected as though they were in the area of the spell. A living stone call isn't going to make spikes every time it slaps someone, but it might make the target behave as though on rough terrain.

[Psyren]

Hmmm...

Thing is, the spell is cast on whatever the Ooze engulfs or attacks whenever it engulfs or attacks anything. Effects that have a duration will therefore last after the Ooze moves on.

So if it's a Darkness spell, it wouldn't just be a cloud of darkness. It would leave a bubble whenever it touches something.

Keep that in mind. Grease that moves to attack your enemies is one thing, but puddles of the stuff everywhere can get pretty annoying.

Hmm... I don't think that's how it works. A Living Spell's slam treats the creatures as though they are subject to the spell effects - it does not actually cast or recreate the effects themselves. Their engulf subjects the creature to the spell effect as well, but only so long as they stay inside the ooze. So a living Grease would cause a creature to have to make a Balance check/Reflex save (either once by slamming that creature, or repeatedly by engulfing it) but it wouldn't actually create patches of grease on the ground, nor would any grease effect extend beyond the ooze's confines.

[Answerer]

By my reading, if the Living Grease slams a creature, then that creature is treated as if Grease had just been cast under their feet. Which is pretty solid.

[Psyren]

By my reading, if the Living Grease slams a creature, then that creature is treated as if Grease had just been cast under their feet. Which is pretty solid.

Yep, exactly. But if the ooze were to then attack someone else (or be slain) there wouldn't actually be a patch of Grease left under the first creature, is what I was saying.

[Karoht]

By my reading, if the Living Grease slams a creature, then that creature is treated as if Grease had just been cast under their feet. Which is pretty solid.
So my suggestion for a spell such as Spike Growth might have some odd functioning, if that is indeed how it works.
Spike growth allows you to throw down a number of 10ft by 10ft spike patches equal to your caster level. You can throw down many many patches, they don't have to be near one another, and as far as I'm aware they don't stack.
Would it just throw down the one patch or many patches?

EDIT: Re-read what you both said, nevermind.

Also, Create Pit. Create Spiked Pit. Create Acid Pit. Yeah.
If it is only the victem who is treated as being affected by the spell, then the ooze doesn't fall in either...
huh...

[Psyren]

What it would do, is treat the creature as though they had stepped on a Spike Growth. This would cause the damage and force the reflex save, including the 24-hour debuff if they failed.

What it would not do, is actually create spikes anywhere (including underneath the creature that got hit.) Effectively, the spikes would be contained within the ooze's pseudopod, and would recede when it does.

RE: Create Pit: A slam would cause the creature to fall into the extradimensional pocket as normal and take the falling damage. It would then be lifted out (as per the spell duration expiring.)

Where this gets interesting is on an engulf. Every round on the ooze's turn, the creatures would fall into the pit and be lifted out, only to fall again. Without external assistance, they will likely die, because while engulfed they can't move out of the ooze's confines.

[Karoht]

Create Pit shenanigans. I like it.

So in the same round that they take the falling damage (slam, create pit, fall, damage), they would be ported back up?

[Psyren]

Create Pit shenanigans. I like it.

So in the same round that they take the falling damage (slam, create pit, fall, damage), they would be ported back up?

That's how I read it, yes. They'll get a reflex save after each slam though (or each round if engulfed) and the LS save DCs are pretty weak. (i.e. weaker than a normal caster with an 16+ in their casting stat.) Worse, if they make the save they are pushed away from the ooze, per the spell description.

Though if you can argue that the ooze's slam counts as "pushing them in..."