Critique My "Paladin" of "Heironeous"

[B-Unit]

Hey all,
I'm building a character for an upcoming game my friend is running. Before I post the build, a few quick notes:
1. This character is intended to be a front liner, so the focus is off the spellcasting.

2. My DM has stated that DMM: Persist is a little too high powered.

3. House rule that there is no fighter class. All characters are considered to be "Fighters" of level equal to their BAB, acquiring bonus feats as such.

4. The starting level is anywhere between 2 and 6. I have no idea to what level the game will run.

The build is:
Changeling
Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 1/Warshaper 3/Ordained Champion +4/Warshaper +1


Str: 17
Dex: 13
Con: 16
Int: 12
Wis: 13
Cha: 12

War Domain, Law Devotion

Feats:
BF: Martial Weapon Proficiency (Greatsword)
BF: Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
BF: Law Devotion
1: Practiced Spellcaster
2-FF: Power Attack
3: Extend Spell
3-FF: Dodge
5-FF: Mobility
6: Chain Spell
8-FF: Elusive Target
9: DMM: Chain Spell
10-FF: Weapon Specialization (Greatsword)
12: Extra Turning
12-FF: Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing)

The character is masquerading as a Paladin of Heironeous, while in actuality being a follower of his own beliefs, so I was able to pickup Greatsword as my my War Domain proficiency/focus.

Weapon Specialization and Melee Weapon mastery were really just picked up because I wasn't sure what else I should be burning fighter feats on.

When I pickup the Ordained Champion extra domain, I plan on taking Travel Domain so I have access to Dimension Door which will help with any maneuverability issues.

Thanks for your help! :smallsmile:

[jaybird]

What about DMM Quicken, if DMM Persist is out?

[Gwendol]

Looks like you would get more mileage out of cleave over dodge and mobility. I'd pick cleave over dodge and perhaps imp bull rush over mobility (and picking up shock trooper later). Or pick the mage slayer feat tree.

[silverwolfer]

throws some STEADFAST BOOTSy and you have yourself some win

[Invader]

Drop the 4 MM feats get 4 more combat feats and go full on melee instead?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Reach Spell + DMM: Chain Spell is a tasty combo for a party buff-bot. Start chaining GMW and MV to the whole party. Grab a Bead of Karma for around 9k so your CL is +4 when you do your buffing. So you do your buffing in the morning, and let it last all day long. This also lets you wade into combat, because your buffing was done earlier this morning.

Some things to consider:

1) Chain Reach + buffs = party buffs. Spells you may wish to use this on include:

* Greater Magic Weapon + Magic Vestments. Never buy higher than a +1 enhancement on weapons or armor again. Plus at hours/level, it's an all day buff starting around level 8.
* Shield of Faith. Never buy a Ring of Protection again.
* Barkskin. From the Plant domain, if you can swing it. Never buy an Amulet of Natural Protection again.
* Resist Energy. Swing a nerf-bat at blastomancy
* Freedom of Movement. Immunities are nice.
* Death Ward. Like I said... immunities are nice.

* Vigor. Out of combat healing is double-plus-good.

Most of these are min/lvl or less, so you won't be using all of them, since you can't persist them with DMM: Persist, however Shield of Faith and Barkskin are both low enough level that you can just eat the spell level adjustment at higher levels.

Elusive Target is a good idea. Shut down uberchargers cold.

I'd suggest doing some ubercharging yourself. Power Attack/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper. It's not the rediculous amount you can get, but stack that with a Valorous weapon, and you're looking at some serious damage output.

A single level in Barbarian can net you Pounce, which will help if you plan on Ubercharging. It can also help you qualify for BAB requirements sooner. No one ever said you had to Rage.

[B-Unit]

What about DMM Quicken, if DMM Persist is out?

I don't like DMM: Quicken so much as DMM: Chain, since my character has a base Charisma modifier of +1, it would take me an extra turning feat or a +Cha item to pickup one usage of it. Though it's definitely something to think about.


Looks like you would get more mileage out of cleave over dodge and mobility. I'd pick cleave over dodge and perhaps imp bull rush over mobility (and picking up shock trooper later). Or pick the mage slayer feat tree.

Mage slayer is out, because reducing my cleric casting level seems like it'd really punish me once I start encountering things with dispel magic, and hurts the length of my buffs before that.

Dodge and Mobility are for Elusive Target, which has always been kind of a pet-feat of mine. I try to build my melee characters so they don't randomly turn into a fine red mist in any combat against a Power/Sneak Attack/Crit Fishing foe. Survivability tends to be my priority.

Shock Trooper, though, is something I should of thought of. I'll definitely work that in. Thank you for that. :smallsmile:


throws some STEADFAST BOOTSy and you have yourself some win

Steadfast Boots definitely sound like they could be quite good. I'm not sure what else takes up the boot-slot, but I will totally keep them in mind.


Drop the 4 MM feats get 4 more combat feats and go full on melee instead?

I'll think about it, but I really feel like the metamagic feats really help my character and his allies more than another couple combat feats would, comparatively.


Reach Spell + DMM: Chain Spell is a tasty combo for a party buff-bot. Start chaining GMW and MV to the whole party. Grab a Bead of Karma for around 9k so your CL is +4 when you do your buffing. So you do your buffing in the morning, and let it last all day long. This also lets you wade into combat, because your buffing was done earlier this morning.

Some things to consider:

1) Chain Reach + buffs = party buffs. Spells you may wish to use this on include:

* Greater Magic Weapon + Magic Vestments. Never buy higher than a +1 enhancement on weapons or armor again. Plus at hours/level, it's an all day buff starting around level 8.
* Shield of Faith. Never buy a Ring of Protection again.
* Barkskin. From the Plant domain, if you can swing it. Never buy an Amulet of Natural Protection again.
* Resist Energy. Swing a nerf-bat at blastomancy
* Freedom of Movement. Immunities are nice.
* Death Ward. Like I said... immunities are nice.

* Vigor. Out of combat healing is double-plus-good.

Most of these are min/lvl or less, so you won't be using all of them, since you can't persist them with DMM: Persist, however Shield of Faith and Barkskin are both low enough level that you can just eat the spell level adjustment at higher levels.

Elusive Target is a good idea. Shut down uberchargers cold.

I'd suggest doing some ubercharging yourself. Power Attack/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper. It's not the rediculous amount you can get, but stack that with a Valorous weapon, and you're looking at some serious damage output.

A single level in Barbarian can net you Pounce, which will help if you plan on Ubercharging. It can also help you qualify for BAB requirements sooner. No one ever said you had to Rage.

All good advice, though I don't think I'll be able to pickup a level of Barbarian, being lawfully aligned and all. I also completely spaced on Reach Spell, forgot how good that one is on a buff-bot.

Thank you all for your input. My new feat setup looks like this:

Feats:
BF: Martial Weapon Proficiencey (*)
BF: Weapon Focus (*)
BF: Law Devotion
1: Practiced Spellcaster
2-FF: Power Attack
3: Reach Spell
3-FF: Dodge
5-FF: Mobility
6: Chain Spell
8-FF: Elusive Target
9: DMM: Chain Spell
10-FF: Improved Bullrush
12: Extra Turning
12-FF: Shock Trooper

I'm definitely happier with this than the original build. Thanks again. :smallsmile:

[Amoren]

Hmmm, I know you want to focus more on combat than spellcasting, but perhaps you should adjust your stats a bit to get a higher wisdom? You have 4th level spells from your levels (I believe), but lack the wisdom to cast them (14) unless I'm missing something.

[B-Unit]

Hmmm, I know you want to focus more on combat than spellcasting, but perhaps you should adjust your stats a bit to get a higher wisdom? You have 4th level spells from your levels (I believe), but lack the wisdom to cast them (14) unless I'm missing something.

Those are my base stats, without any adjustments. I'd have access to 4th level spells and above due to bonus accrued from leveling and items. Sorry for not making that clear ^^

[Person_Man]

My 2 cp:

I would drop Warshaper (and Changling, which you presumably took to get access to Warshaper). It's primary focus is natural weapons, it doesn't progress casting, and it's class abilities can easily be duplicated by spells. Even if you only cast a couple of buffs before combat, focus entirely on melee during combat, and cast a couple of healing spells after combat, you'll still be better off.
If you're wedded to Warshaper, then I would instead drop the Cleric and Ordained Champion levels, and instead take levels of Totemist, which is far stronger on natural weapons. The crunch doesn't match up very well with the fluff of hat you're going for, but if you're going to use Warshaper, you might as well use it in a more optimal fashion.
If you drop Warshaper and stick with Cleric, there are a few races with racial bonuses to Wisdom, so you should probably take one. I suggest Lesser Aasimar (+2 Wis and +2 Cha), and maybe add Dragonborn (for wings or a breath weapon) on top of it. Jerlamaine also gives a +6 bonus to Wis, though it'd kill your Cha and you'd have to switch to a tiny Dex based build. Or even just vanilla human for the bonus Feat would be better then Changling.
Or you could just play a Crusader, which is very Paladin-ish, and highly focused on defense.
I would not take feats that rely on full BAB (Power Attack, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, etc) unless you are playing a full BAB build, which you are not.
If you take a few levels of Prestige Paladin or Triadic Knight (Champions of Valor) or 1 level of Knight of the Iron Glacier (Frostburn, though it has cruddy Feat prereqs) you can get a Special Mount, which would make you more Paladin-ish, and is handy in general (since you can Share Spells with it).
You may wish to take a look at the Smite Optimization thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10289492). Cleric/Ordained Champion is quite good at it, and with a couple of Feats and spells, you can be amazingly good at it.
If you're looking for survivability, then there are much better ways of getting it without Elusive Target and it's cruddy pre-reqs. Take a look at Fearless Destiny (Races of Destiny, if human), Combat Focus + Combat Vigor + Combat Stability (PHBII), Divine Defiance (Fiendish Codex II), Stand Still (SRD), Minor Shapeshift (Com Arcane), or Winged Warrior (Races of the Wild, if Dragonborn).