Did Shojo's advice to Belkar... [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Hardcore

2012-07-25, 11:42 PM

Winter

2012-07-26, 04:34 AM

Do you want us to absolve your actions?
Do you want us to comment on your personal situation based on some flimsy facts you gave us?

You sound like someone who made a hard decision in RL and now map it to D&D alignment and stuff you read in some webcomic.

As you started it, from what you said I'd put you in the (at least!) neutral alignment (letting go of family in need without good reason is never really "good"; even then it's probably borderline); but I cannot know. This is totally up to you to come to an conclusion what you are.

But this is a discussion about you, your personal situation and morals in general. As such, I'm not really seeing any connection to D&D or this comic beyond you wanting agreement you "do the right thing". We cannot know. And even if we agreed or disagreed, what would that bring you? Nothing.
I could comment, but I'm not as I'm here to talk about OotS and D&D, not if RL-abandoning cousins and fathers is ok (good?) in specific cases.

PS: My personal opinion is that alignments are for game characters, not our RL-self and the hard RL-decisions with a massive impact on us and others we all sadly have to make once in a while.

The Succubus

2012-07-26, 04:48 AM

I wouldn't say it's helped me as such, but I am keenly aware of the truth of what he says. We all wear a mask of some sort.

Hardcore

2012-07-26, 08:23 AM

Neither am I asking for it, nor do I need someones approval for my actions.
What I am saying is that I finally understood the strip when relating to my family situation, and that I better understand how my cousins think (they don't) thanks to the strip.

As for my alignment it certainly is chaotic for those that do not use their brain for thinking!

Toofey

2012-07-26, 08:48 AM

I dunno... you seem pretty rigid about it.

rgrekejin

2012-07-26, 08:55 AM

dps

2012-07-26, 10:04 AM

*blink blink*

...ooookay. Yeah, I'm not sure this is where this thread belongs, if it belongs here at all. Being only tangentially related to the comic, this more likely fits under the "Banter" heading, and it probably doesn't belong there, either. I mean, if ever there was a thread designed to produce a "morally justified" debate, you're looking right at it.

Actually, he doesn't so much seem to want us to agree that he's morally superior to his cousins as he wants to crow about being smarter then them. Because apparantly selfish=smart or something.

Winter

2012-07-26, 10:22 AM

Yes, RPG rules can help to understand how people can be modeled, what aspects there are and it can help to understand what is going on. For example White Wolf's system has some awesome things in this regard in their system.
Also the idea what does good and chaotic etc represent, the question where the difference between Int and Wis lies, all helps to understand a bit more.

But this thread is, as far as I personally consider what I could write here, not this and it has the promise to turn into "morally justified" or even something truly ugly, I fear.

As to give in a bit to what the OP wanted to discuss, here's a bit:
What those rules rarely reflect is it's not only about "what" you do but also "how" you do and then communicate about it, and what you (maybe even to you yourself unknown!) motives for the action are - and here really RPG rules get confuddled when applied to stuff where it "matters" instead of some silly game.
Also, there's a problem there might be (in some RPG-system) no "ultimate truth" so deciding what is "good" and "bad" might be impossible in the first place and "your character" being right (or wrong) does make "the other character" wrong (or right). It can be that there simply is no right or wrong, just the stance that you think your character can live with himself, independent of other possible stances on any given issue.
Complicated Mojo. :smallcool:

edit: I just saw that while this post was open, it already did turn ugly... count me out.

irenicObserver

2012-07-26, 04:44 PM

I barely remember Shojo's advice, care to remind me?
Your OP has very little context, I'm not sure what is going on.

I think the reason people responding seem to be a little indignant is because you started a conversation with vague information. It presumes we know all of what you are talking about and gives us little to work from.

KillianHawkeye

2012-07-27, 05:17 AM

So Hardcore posts a story about how a particular part of the comic helped him to understand life better and asks if anybody else has had a similar experience, and everybody is accusing him of asking for moral approval or claiming that he is better than somebody else?

I don't get it. He didn't ask for any of you to comment on his situation with his family or his actions concerning them AT ALL. He never claimed to be smarter than anybody. He only wanted to see if others had any similar stories.

I am really shocked and saddened at the negativity within this thread.

Tuhljin

2012-07-27, 05:30 AM

I don't get it.

Maybe if you freshened up on what the advice that "Shojo" (supposedly - more likely not literally him) gave to Belkar was, you'd get where they're coming from. It wasn't exactly the kind of advice you'd expect from a wise sage trying to make you into a better person.

KillianHawkeye

2012-07-27, 08:23 AM

Maybe if you freshened up on what the advice that "Shojo" (supposedly - more likely not literally him) gave to Belkar was, you'd get where they're coming from. It wasn't exactly the kind of advice you'd expect from a wise sage trying to make you into a better person.

I'm quite aware that Shojo's advice to Belkar was to "play the game" of being a functioning member of society. And I don't know why you'd assume that the advice was meant to make Belkar a better person, since it specifically helps him avoid doing so.

That has absolutely zero bearing on all the people who are ignoring what this thread was supposed to be about in order to make judgements about Hardcore and his familial relationships.

Most people have that thing that's important to their friends or some other person in their lives which they just don't care about. In that situation, playing the "game" of pretending to care about Thing X can actually help prevent a disruption in that relationship. It's called giving a crap about what somebody else gives a crap about. The OP was merely asking if this advice had made a difference in anybody else's life the way it had in his, and hoping they would share their stories the way he did.

He never asked for forgiveness or for anybody to comment on his attitude or whether what he did was right or wrong.

Hardcore

2012-07-27, 09:31 AM

Yeah, I could perhaps made myself more clear, but it was late, I was typing on my small smartphone (HTC gratia/aria), and since my family relations was merely a background explanation I decided to only write what was necessary.
Restricted by circumstances one could say:p.

Anyway it was both Shojo's advice AND observation on how humans and society works
useful to me. Much more the later than the former actually.

Bulldog Psion

2012-07-27, 09:56 AM

I don't know what you expect out of this thread.

You're either bragging about what a smart person you are, or you're trying to start up a discussion of "was I morally justified in real life". Or it's neither of those, and there's absolutely nothing to discuss other than, "yep, Shojo said it. Yes, Shojo said it alright. Ayup, Shojo said it. Uh-huh, Shojo said it."

Either way, I just don't see the possibility for any kind of constructive discussion. So I, at least, am totally puzzled about what this thread is supposed to be about.

Mike Havran

2012-07-27, 10:41 AM

The OP was merely asking if this advice had made a difference in anybody else's life the way it had in his, and hoping they would share their stories the way he did.

I'm pretty sure there is a place where people can share their life stories the way Hardcore did. But I'm also pretty sure this particular section of the forum is not the place.

As for the "Shojo's" advice...

We don't know what exactly happened there in those strips and it's almost certain we will not learn it later. So there are several possibilities, and the simplest solution is that deceased Shojo was not involved in the trip at all.

In my opinion, there is a part of Belkar, his soul/spirit/subconscious_mind/whatever, that dreams of commiting greater acts of Evil, but is constantly hampered by low mental abilities of his physical brain. He has no patience, wisdom or anything needed to become a major villain, he is just a primitive stabbing bastard. Belkar's soul used the curse fever to manifest to his consciousness about what could be done in order to become more dangerous and evil threat. It took a shape of Shojo, because Shojo is the only person who was remotely respected by Belkar (Belkar doesn't respect neither himself nor anyone else), and thus the chance of getting the point across was biggest with former Azure City leader. The advice did not make Belkar any better on the Good/Evil axis, only more acceptable by those who don't know him better. Chaotic Good person like Shojo would have never done this.

So no, the advice did not help me at all. Because I do not consider it advice, but a display of how a vicious rotten bastard can become a vicious rotten bastard that is harder to detect.

Cizak

2012-07-27, 01:42 PM

I don't know what you expect out of this thread.

[Did Shojo's advce to Belkar...] help YOU?

So, very briefly, that was my story. Shojo have helped me, did his advice help you?

You're either bragging about what a smart person you are, or you're trying to start up a discussion of "was I morally justified in real life".

He never asked for anyone to comment, compliment or argue with his story. He asked very clearly if Shojo's advice had any effect on anyone else's life and if those people would like to share their stories.

Seriously, people. Actually read all of the OP before replying.

Felixc-91

2012-07-27, 05:21 PM

Well, looking at the actual advice given... no it didn't help me, but only because I had already learned the lesson the image of Shojo was trying to teach Belkar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0606.html). For those of you here who seem to be missing the point I'll try to clarify it somewhat.

To make life easier for yourself and sometimes others, you need to be able to blend in to the culture you live in; Even if that means hiding the true you from most of the people you meet. The big thing some people seem to be missing is that this is something everyone should learn, whether they are Evil, Lawful, Chaotic, Good, or some other personality type not covered by the D&D alignment system. Just about everybody will someday end up in a situation where the majority of people, or a specific important person or persons, cares about something you don't or advocates an opinion you oppose. In these situations being able to blend in or pretend to care can be very helpful.

Hmm, after looking back at the commentary from Don’t Split the Party it seems like I have generalized something that was supposed to be aimed at the chaotic perspective, but I think my interpolation still holds if you think about it for a few minutes.

Silferdrake

2012-07-27, 05:45 PM

While I can't say that I learned anything from it per se. It fits rather well with parts of my philosophy. Now, I may be a bit of a cynic and probably closer to chaotic than lawful, but I find the following conclusion to be spot on:

"Nudge die rolls, palm cards, "forget" penalties... But you have to sit down to play first. As long as the people at the table see a fellow players across from them, they'll tolerate you. A crooked player is a pain in the ass, but someone who refuses to play at all makes them star questioning their own lives - and people HATE to think. They'd rather lose to a cheater than dwell too long on why they're playing in the first place."

Tuhljin

2012-07-27, 06:13 PM

And I don't know why you'd assume that the advice was meant to make Belkar a better person, since it specifically helps him avoid doing so.
I'm not assuming that. It sounds like you're taking the phrase "you'd expect" the wrong way. All I'm saying is that one would assume, by the "tropes", that the "wise sage" Shojo would offer advice to make Belkar a better person instead of the advice "Shojo" gave him -- not that the advice "Shojo" gave him was supposed to make him a better person.

That has absolutely zero bearing on all the people who are ignoring what this thread was supposed to be about in order to make judgements about Hardcore and his familial relationships.
No, it has a lot of bearing, for reasons several other people have pointed out. I realize that the OP did not ask for a discussion of his situation, but he did ask if others had benefited from "Shojo's" advice. Now, unless this request is a straitjacket that forces us to agree that that advice is beneficial to begin with and thus can truly help one out in one's life or else we're not allowed to respond, then the reaction given here is (mostly) justified. (I say mostly because it seems that some people say he asked for things he did not. He's not asking for agreement, but the post does -- to use an idiom in a common though technically improper manner -- "beg the question".)

Cizak

2012-07-27, 06:38 PM

I realize that the OP did not ask for a discussion of his situation, but he did ask if others had benefited from "Shojo's" advice. Now, unless this request is a straitjacket that forces us to agree that that advice is beneficial to begin with and thus can truly help one out in one's life or else we're not allowed to respond, then the reaction given here is (mostly) justified.

I hightlighted the important part. The possible answers are "I have, here's my story", "I have not" and "I don't think this can be applied to real life". This still gives no reason to bash the OP's situation, because that is not what he wanted to discuss. The question is still "Have you benefited from Shojo's advice", not "please analyze my situation and tell me what you think about it". That, people seem to have made up on their own.

The request is not a straight jacket, how could it be? If you don't "agree that that advice is beneficial to begin with and thus can truly help one out in one's life" then you are allowed to respond, but keep it within the topic, i.e. "I don't think this can can be appled to real life".

Chessgeek

2012-07-28, 12:46 AM

Back on topic...
Shojo's advice didn't make a big impact on me, but only because I had already been using it by the time I read the comic. I don't really have a story to go with it, unfortunately.
But the OP only asked a question and told a related anecdote, and several responses were rather accusatory. If you don't have anything nice to say, perhaps it's better to not say it.

Tuhljin

2012-07-28, 02:05 AM

The request is not a straight jacket, how could it be?

If you don't have anything nice to say, perhaps it's better to not say it.

I rest my case.

Cizak

2012-07-28, 05:09 AM

I rest my case.

That doesn't make it a straight jacket. You can disagree with someone without being rude. So yeah, you have every right to disagree, but if you don't have anything nice* to say, then you contribute nothing to the actual discission.

*with "nice" here being a polite ageement or disagreement on the ontopic discussion.

TreesOfDeath

2012-07-28, 05:34 AM

Why did you stop visiting your dad? It could either be a **** move or understandable depending on your circumstances

Hardcore

2012-07-28, 07:13 AM

context. since only oneself have all the relevant info no-one can judge you without making themselves look silly. This lesson is difficult to learn but if you do then it will improve your demeanors. Especially when communicating online, which can tricky.

Chessgeek

2012-07-28, 09:56 AM

I rest my case.

There are "nice" ways to disagree. Insulting the OP is not one of them.

Killer Angel

2012-07-28, 10:50 AM

My mistake was in not faking it last year. I didn't understand the need, and I am not used
use lies to smooth my path.
So, very briefly, that was my story. Shojo have helped me, did his advice help you?

Well, I know peoples (not referring at you, obviously) that could teach lessons to Shojo on the matter of faking and lying...

Tuhljin

2012-07-28, 10:04 PM

There are "nice" ways to disagree. Insulting the OP is not one of them.

Who "insulted" the OP that I didn't already take issue with in my second post of the thread?

But whatever, this argument is pointless. Suffice it to say that any full disclosure, no matter how diplomatically put, of my opinion about taking "Shojo's" advice to heart in real life could be construed as "offensive" to someone. It's a horrible, horrible, horrible thing to do - unless all we're talking about is "white lies", but then we're not doing justice to what "Shojo's" advice was all about.

xilokix

2012-08-06, 01:38 PM

On the bright side, I'm sure Rich Burflew is pretty happy his comic is affecting people in a positive manner.

Boogastreehouse

2012-08-07, 05:53 AM

I did not learn much from Shojo's "lesson" because I think that hiding who you really are is a sad way to live your life. A life composed of a great deal of sham and deception and hypocritical facades might even be called pathetic.

Sure there are times when it's better to keep quiet and go with the flow, but I try to avoid it whenever I can, and refrain from disguising who I am.

If I have a trait or if I engage in an activity that mainstream society might frown upon, then I display it with pride, or if it is something I am not proud of, then at least with honesty and dignity.

If you feel the need to hide something of yourself from the eyes of others, then maybe you should take a closer look at what you're hiding. Odds are, if you're hiding something, you are either ashamed of it or otherwise know that what you're doing is wrong.

Killer Angel

2012-08-07, 06:23 AM

Odds are, if you're hiding something, you are either ashamed of it or otherwise know that what you're doing is wrong.

Or what you're doing is right, but is forbidden in that society (imagine by yourself any real world example. There are many).

Or you prefer to be somehow hypocrite, rather than cause suffering to people you love ("nope, the roast meet doesn't taste overcooked")

Forikroder

2012-08-07, 09:38 PM

help YOU?
A few days ago I finally understood what it meant, and also what "alignment" I am.

Two of my cousins refuse to speak to me since a year back. They don't say why but I can guess; they feel I have sort dumped my old father on them by not doing my duties as son.
They have unthinkingly swallowed whole that "what you are supposed to do/act" thing.
No-one asked them to visit dad. It was their idea, and if th7ey tired of it they should not blame it on somebody else. But they "hate to think".
My mistake was in not faking it last year. I didn't understand the need, and I am not used
use lies to smooth my path.

So, very briefly, that was my story. Shojo have helped me, did his advice help you?

Alignment: chaotic neutral/good
you refuse to visit your aging father and still put yourself as "good" on the alignment scale?

and then even take the time to insult your cousins for helping your father cope with his son abondoning him and calling them dumb for having morals?

you didnt understand Shojos advice at all, or at least not everything he said, because you are certainly not Chaotic good, maybe chaotic neutral but probably chaotic evil

Gift Jeraff

2012-08-07, 10:49 PM

I was lost one day and was found later, but Shojo changed my outlook and ever since, I've been really different.

coineineagh

2012-08-07, 10:59 PM

Family is a dangerous topic. Just look how many poorly informed value judgements this simple example called up. We know next to nothing about Hardcore, his family, or the situation. Maybe his father lives on another continent, and refuses to use internet. Maybe his father was a rotten bastard like Belkar, but still expects his son to drop everything for him, because he feels a bit lonely. We don't know much, except that Hardcore's cousins criticize him for not being around. Such things happen often in families.

Family creates obligation, strong obligation. Often, people are not reasonable when passing judgements about how people behave in their families. The question is never asked whether those obligations are reasonable, or practically feasible. You simply must, and if you don't, you're despicable. Money is often involved too.

What Belkar's vision told me, in my perception of it: You don't get punished for acts of evil, you get punished for not playing along (with the rules, with others' expectations). Successful people are sociable people, unsuccessful people are often less sociable. It's nothing I didn't know already, but it was a reminder that just being yourself is not the best way to go about things. I am myself, I'm not good at acting, and I suffer every day for it.

Good and evil? Those are measured by how much you are willing to give for others. If you are generous, you are good. If you prefer to keep to yourself, you are neutral. If you want to see others fail to emphasize your own success, you are evil. Many, if not most, powerful people are evil, because they almost always used other people to get ahead. People who shy away from their families are often given the moniker Evil, but Neutral is more realistic.

My alignment? Chaotic definitely. Not evil, definitely.

Steven

2012-08-07, 11:32 PM

It didn't help me. I'd come to the conclusion that if you want to get ahead you have to play the game a long time ago and to a certain extent I've opted out of the game.

As far as all the aggressive posts go: Why would anyone jump down the OP's throat for what he posted? You know nothing about the situation he's in. His father could be anything from a saint to a mass murderer: None of us know because he has chosen not to tell us. Which is fair enough since he is not asking for you approval or judgement.

As to the comment about the cousins not thinking: Once again with out context you're presuming he is saying that not thinking is the same as being stupid. I know lots of smart people who buy into some fairly silly ideas because they don't choose to de-construct them.