[3.5] Help with a new character

[aphoticConniver]

During my most recent gaming session, my 13th level Druid, who I've been playing for quite a while, was killed due to plot reasons. My DM has allowed me to make a new character, keeping the same stats I rolled on my Druid:

16 Strength
18 Dexterity
16 Constitution
12 Intelligence
18 Wisdom
16 Charisma

Now, I want to fill sort of the same role in the group, and I was wondering which classes would most benefit my rolled stats. Our party consists of a 13th level Paladin, a 12th level Cleric/Servant of Pelor, a 12th level Fighter(which may be temporary), and a 16th level Rogue/Shadowdancer. I'm allowed to start at 13th level, with basic weapons. Our DM is a stickler when it comes to gear. Thanks!

[Mithril Leaf]

Since you've already got a cleric and were already a druid... Maybe archivist? You get every divine spell. Probably you best bet if the cleric is going CoDzilla.

[aphoticConniver]

I should probably clarify that this is, while not exactly a low-powered game, a fairly unoptimized one. My druid/warshaper was always considered overpowered, for example, and I didn't even have my Cryohydra wildshape from Frozen Wildshape yet.

[Panigg]

Well what was your role?

If you were mainly wild shaped you should get something like that, you stats are pretty good for that.

If you were more of a controller, you should try a sorcerer.

[ThiagoMartell]

Well, same scores, same role... why don't you get your character raised?

[aphoticConniver]

Well, the reason I'm not going to get him raised is that he died mostly willingly. He plotted an assassination, which, without going into major detail, the wrong action for the right reason. Accepted his sentence, and was hanged. I was more of a melee fighter, using the Urskan wildshape to be able to cast spells (DM disallowed Natural Spell), but I always enjoy trying new things in terms of classes, and our party seems to be pretty well off with fighters and such. Also, I like making the DM mad with non-PHB classes, so that might be a factor.

[CreganTur]

Can you not keep the same scores, but swap them to different attributes?

With your high Wisdom and Dexterity, you could always be a Mon...:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin: Man, whoo.. I couldn't even type that with a straight face.

If you cannot change around your scores, then your CHA is pretty good, and could be made better with magic items, so I would suggest Sorcy or Bard if your party needs some spellcasting.

[aphoticConniver]

I'm not sure if I can switch attribute scores, so I'd have to ask the DM.
As for sorcerer, I've had very bad experiences with most of the more squishy classes. Also, it's almost become sort of a running joke that our Rogue is our only arcane spellcaster, and I'd hate to ruin that.

[Gwendol]

Bard-paladin is likely a solid choice. With those abilities you're likely to be a monster in melee with the right build.

Edit: or go ranger perhaps aiming for horizon tripper, or add some scout for swift hunter.

[ThiagoMartell]

With those stats, I'd try a Swordsage.

[aphoticConniver]

I never thought about Swordsage... I really like the class flavor-wise, and of course it's a great class. Any suggestions for races? We're in Wonderland (Dungeonland campaign), so essentially anything goes. Within reason, of course.
EDIT: Also, prestige class suggestions, if any are decent.

[Psyren]

I recommend Spirit Shaman. You get all your Druid spells back, and can even have its guiding spirit be your deceased Druid.

Swordsage... it's a nice idea but I'd worry about possibly outshining the Fighter and Rogue (at the same time.)

[only1doug]

High LA race + swordsage should be nicely un-optimised, can i suggest pixie?

[aphoticConniver]

I recommend Spirit Shaman. You get all your Druid spells back, and can even have its guiding spirit be your deceased Druid.

Swordsage... it's a nice idea but I'd worry about possibly outshining the Fighter and Rogue (at the same time.)

Spirit Shaman sounds absolutely amazing. Even with a few levels of it for a PrC with full spellcasting advancement, the flavor is just amazing for the character.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'll strongly agree that Spirit Shaman looks like a superb choice. Go with a Snow Elf from Frostburn (-2 Cha, no Con penalty), and plan on going Spirit Shaman 6/ Paragnostic Apostle 3/ Seeker of the Misty Isle 1/ Contemplative 10 for your build. I'd get the Celerity or Time domain from Contemplative 1, to be able to cast Haste on the party, and be sure to get Spatial Awareness from Paragnostic Apostle and buff yourself with (Extended) Longstrider every day. Take Ancestral Relic (BoED) at 3rd and make it a custom Runestaff (MIC) with whatever spells you want on it. You can put domain spells on there and still be able to cast them 3/day from the Runestaff instead of the standard 1/day limit.

Your items should include a few (Lesser) Metamagic Rods of Extend, a standard Strand of Prayer Beads which has the Bead of Smiting already removed (9,000 gp per DMG pricing), several bottles of Unguent of Timelessness, a standard Metamagic Rod of Empower, a Ring of the Beast (CC), and maybe some of the Raiment of the Four set (MIC).



If you want to play a Swordsage, make your character a Whisper Gnome (RoS) natural Lycanthrope (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm) (bottom of the page) using a Serval from Sandstorm as the animal. Note that a Serval has only 1 HD, +0 BAB, and Weapon Finesse, which it doesn't qualify for. Per the Monster Manual errata (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a), such creatures should be given Weapon Finesse as a racial bonus feat and their 1 HD feat should instead be a +2/+2 skill feat, such as Stealthy.

Whisper Gnome Were-Serval, base stats 16 Strength, 18 Dexterity, 16 Constitution, 12 Intelligence, 18 Wisdom, 16 Charisma
All Forms:
12 Intelligence, 20 Wisdom, 14 Charisma.
Alternate Form (Su) per Lycanthrope.
Lycanthropic Empathy (Ex) per Lycanthrope.
Low-Light Vision, Scent, Darkvision 60 ft.
Bonus Feats: Iron Will, Weapon Finesse, and Stealthy.
Small Humanoid (Shapechanger, Gnome)
Weapon Familiarity per Whisper Gnome.
+1 attack rolls versus kobolds and goblinoids per Whisper Gnome.
+4 dodge bonus to AC versus giants per Whisper Gnome.
+2 racial bonus on Spot checks.
+4 racial bonus on Balance and Climb checks.
+8 racial bonus on Hide, Move Silently, and Jump checks.
+10 racial bonus on Listen checks.
Can use Dexterity instead of Strength when making Jump checks.
Spell-Like Abilities per Whisper Gnome.
Favored Class: Rogue.
Level Adjustment: +3.

Humanoid Form Only:
14 Strength, 20 Dexterity, 18 Constitution.
+2 Natural Armor.

Humanoid or Hybrid Form:
30 ft. land speed.

Hybrid Form and Animal Form:
16 Strength, 26 Dexterity, 20 Constitution.
+3 Natural Armor.
Damage Reduction 10/Silver.
2 Claws primary 1d3 + Str, Bite secondary, -5 to hit, 1d4 + 1/2 Str.
Curse of Lycanthropy (Su) per Lycanthrope.
+4 bonus extra to Hide checks in areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth.

Animal Form Only:
40 ft. land speed.
Improved Grab (Ex): Bite only, target must be at least one size smaller than yourself, enables Rake attacks to be made on a full attack.
Pounce (Ex): If you charge, you can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.
Rake (Ex): Full attack bonus (as Claws), damage 1d3 + 1/2 Str.

Hit Dice:
You begin play with one HD of Animal, which is never considered to have been taken at 1st level and thus is not the level on which you get x4 skill points. It grants the following benefits:
1d8 HP, plus the Con bonus of your Animal/Hybrid forms.
2+Int skill points, its class skills are Balance, Climb, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot.
+0 BAB, or +3/4 if using fractional BAB from Unearthed Arcana.
Base saves of Fortitude +2, Reflex +2, Will +0.
Proficiency with any natural weapons you may have, but not with any manufactured weapons or armor.

For your build I'd go LA +3/ Swordsage 1/ Animal HD 1/ Sneak Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) Thug Fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) 1/ Swordsage 3/ Warshaper 4. You can actually start out having bought off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) one point of that level adjustment, you'll start at ECL 12 with a +2 LA instead. You'll still have level 13 gear because you did hit level 13 before paying the XP to reduce your level adjustment. Your future levels should all be in Swordsage.

Feats: Weapon Finesse (B), Stealthy (B), Iron Will (B), Darkstalker (1), Shadow Blade (3), Two-Weapon Fighting (6), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (9). Future feats should include Craven, Silencing Strike, and Extra Silence.

Maneuvers/stances:
Swordsage 1 (IL 1): Shadow Blade Technique, Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Distracting Ember, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Counter Charge; Child of Shadow.
Swordsage 2 (IL 3): Shadow Jaunt, Step of the Wind
Swordsage 3 (IL 4): Mountain Hammer
Swordsage 4 (IL 5): Fan the Flames, Soaring Raptor Strike; lose Shadow Blade Technique

Get two small Swords of Subtlety if possible. I'd get Bracers of Armor or maybe just a bunch of Potions of Mage Armor for when you need it. Check out this list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851), and otherwise pick up generic Enhancement, Resistance, and Deflection bonuses.

[aphoticConniver]

The only problem with the above build is that my DM is very strict about what kind of classes we can take. Spirit Shaman should be fine, to him, even Monks are a bit too overpowered for their own good. Which is, to be frank, silly, but I digress. Is there a prestige class that's going to let me keep full casting progression while letting me be useful against things that aren't incorporeal?
EDIT: Also, I'm not allowed to use any of my starting gold on anything but basic armor and weapons.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The only problem with the above build is that my DM is very strict about what kind of classes we can take. Spirit Shaman should be fine, to him, even Monks are a bit too overpowered for their own good. Which is, to be frank, silly, but I digress. Is there a prestige class that's going to let me keep full casting progression while letting me be useful against things that aren't incorporeal?
EDIT: Also, I'm not allowed to use any of my starting gold on anything but basic armor and weapons.

You're already going to be useful against things that aren't incorporeal. Spirit Shaman just gives you a few bonuses specific to incorporeal opponents. Spells like Entangle, (Extended) Produce Flame, (Extended) Creeping Cold, Sleet Storm, Ice Storm, (Empowered) Fire Seeds (berry bombs, cast ahead of time and soaked in Unguent of Timelessness), etc. you should do just fine in the useful-against-everything department.

Seeker of the Misty Isle is definitely worth dipping, but there's no reason to take more than four levels of it. Paragnostic Apostle is just plain good. Contemplative is the go-to for finishing off a primary divine caster build.

Take Ancestral Relic (BoED), you now have a stick that you inherited from your forefathers and can turn it into any magic item you want it to be, within the level-based limitation, as long as you sacrifice the appropriate amount of wealth into it. Make it a Runestaff, detailed in Magic Item Compendium, but use the 'Creating New Runestaffs' section on page 224 to put on whatever spells that you want it to have, as long as they appear on your spell list. There is absolutely nothing a DM can do or say to prohibit this, apart from arbitrarily banning something or unfairly taking it away during play. If it's not a weapon then there's no reason for an NPC to remove it from you, and if it's your sacred-holy-spirit-stick then in-character it would be unforgivably disrespectful to ask your character to part with it.

If you can only spend starting gold on basic mundane gear, how do you get magic items? Can you commission NPCs to craft them for you during play, subject to the DM's whims? Can you take item creation feats and start with items that you've crafted yourself?

It looks to me like your DM is a control freak. In my experience, such DMs mistreat their players in extremely unfair ways. If any PCs' capabilities get arbitrarily overridden so that the story can go the way the DM wants it to go, then you should bail immediately and never consider playing under that DM ever again.

[aphoticConniver]

You're already going to be useful against things that aren't incorporeal. Spirit Shaman just gives you a few bonuses specific to incorporeal opponents. Spells like Entangle, (Extended) Produce Flame, (Extended) Creeping Cold, Sleet Storm, Ice Storm, (Empowered) Fire Seeds (berry bombs, cast ahead of time and soaked in Unguent of Timelessness), etc. you should do just fine in the useful-against-everything department.

Seeker of the Misty Isle is definitely worth dipping, but there's no reason to take more than four levels of it. Paragnostic Apostle is just plain good. Contemplative is the go-to for finishing off a primary divine caster build.

Take Ancestral Relic (BoED), you now have a stick that you inherited from your forefathers and can turn it into any magic item you want it to be, within the level-based limitation, as long as you sacrifice the appropriate amount of wealth into it. Make it a Runestaff, detailed in Magic Item Compendium, but use the 'Creating New Runestaffs' section on page 224 to put on whatever spells that you want it to have, as long as they appear on your spell list. There is absolutely nothing a DM can do or say to prohibit this, apart from arbitrarily banning something or unfairly taking it away during play. If it's not a weapon then there's no reason for an NPC to remove it from you, and if it's your sacred-holy-spirit-stick then in-character it would be unforgivably disrespectful to ask your character to part with it.

If you can only spend starting gold on basic mundane gear, how do you get magic items? Can you commission NPCs to craft them for you during play, subject to the DM's whims? Can you take item creation feats and start with items that you've crafted yourself?

It looks to me like your DM is a control freak. In my experience, such DMs mistreat their players in extremely unfair ways. If any PCs' capabilities get arbitrarily overridden so that the story can go the way the DM wants it to go, then you should bail immediately and never consider playing under that DM ever again.

Well, the only reason we're so limited in terms of gear is that we didn't exactly know how much gold to start with... our excess gold is held within a bank in our home plane, so we'll be able to spend it when we return from Dungeonland. Other than that, we're allowed to purchase any magic item we can find.