Creatures with Wall of Stone as an SLA?

[Seerow]

So in one of my group's current campaigns, we're settling down to make a stronghold. One of the characters just got a small Barony, and the rest of us are okay with helping out to make castle on this piece of land for our own reasons.

Problem is, we're using the Stronghold Builder's guide, and for anyone familiar with that, you know that making anything is ridiculously expensive. We've determined walls alone for our minimalist keep costs like 80,000gp. For anything bigger or fancier that cost will skyrocket. But the book does have a mitigating factor: Walls being made out of stone can be made much cheaper or free with Wall of Stone. For a 50% discount, you need like 12 castings per day at CL12, for 100% you need 12 castings per day with CL16 (or 5 castings at CL20).

Problem is we're just now level 10. Even if we had someone pick up Wall of Stone, nobody has a high enough CL for the discount, let alone enough castings per day. So what I'm looking for is any monsters we could reasonably either defeat/enslave or bargain with that have Wall of Stone as an SLA with a high enough caster level to be useful for this. Flipping through core I didn't see anything, but I know some of the people here know all of the monsters in the books in and out, so I'm hoping someone knows of something relevant offhand to save me a few hours of searching.

[Ziegander]

Sun Giant, in MM2, has Wall of Stone as a SLA at-will, but I can't remember what the caster level is for it.

[Seerow]

Sun Giant, in MM2, has Wall of Stone as a SLA at-will, but I can't remember what the caster level is for it.


I'll check it, thanks.


Edit: Yep looks like it's at CL13, so high enough to get us the discount. Unless there's something out there with a CL16 that isn't also so strong it could just completely ignore us then that sounds like a good bet.

[Khedrac]

As an alternative, or as an addition, look at getting a lyre-of-building (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/magicItemsWI.html#lyre-of-building) only 13,000gp.
This should cover a lot of the interior work (especially if you have someone who can keep playing for a long time).

[Seerow]

As an alternative, or as an addition, look at getting a lyre-of-building (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/magicItemsWI.html#lyre-of-building) only 13,000gp.
This should cover a lot of the interior work (especially if you have someone who can keep playing for a long time).

Yep, we're already planning on that. It's a 30% cost reduction for everything, and speeds the process up immensely. The thing basically pays for itself almost instantly if you have someone with a decent perform check (and one of us has a bard cohort who incidentally can).

[whibla]

There's always my favourite beastie, a Spirit of the Land (MM2).

While I suspect this is the last type of creature that would wholly approve of castle building, being a true neutral fey / nature spirit, there may be a way you might persuade it that you building a castle would be a good thing.

Main reason I mention it is that a SotL gets Move Earth, Soften Earth and Stone, Stone Shape, and Wall of Stone, all at will, cast at 20th level.

Granted, as a CR 23 creature you're not going to be enslaving it to do your biding, but as I say, depending on your game you might be able to enlist its aid (and make a long term ally) for a suitable 'price'... assuming you can find one in the first place.

[Answerer]

Doesn't the Stronghold Builder's Guide have a feat that gives you a huge pile of gold that has to be used for building said stronghold?

I've always heard that as a major criticism of the book, that the feat became basically a feat tax.

[Seerow]

Doesn't the Stronghold Builder's Guide have a feat that gives you a huge pile of gold that has to be used for building said stronghold?

I've always heard that as a major criticism of the book, that the feat became basically a feat tax.

Yeah, we may or may not be getting that for free. Either way we're using the stronghold as a place to dump any loot we get taking us above wealth by level (as of level 10, we had I believe like 60k gold over), if we get the feat, that 60k gets doubled plus an extra 50k besides. But either way we'd rather have a stronghold that is slightly less minimalist than spend 90% of our gold on walls.

@Whibla: That is pretty amazing, but I doubt we could pull off convincing one to go along with helping us. I'll ask about it, but for right now finding a Sun giant or building something cheap as a temporary thing then waiting a couple levels to rennovate up to the stone walls ourselves.

[Gavinfoxx]

You're at the level where you don't have to actually use the rules in that book for making buildings and stuff... just use the spells! If you can make some at will wondrous items of Wall of Stone, Stone Shape, Soften Earth and Stone, and Unseen Crafter, you can basically make an entire stone city with just that item. A few extra options -- Stone Metamorphosis, Greater Stone Metamorphosis, Greater Stone Shape, Transmute Rock to Mud, transmute Mud to Rock, and Move Earth, would just be icing on the cake.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aG4P3dU6WP3pq8mW9l1qztFeNfqQHyI22oJe09i8KWw/edit

[Fuzzy McCoy]

An alternative to Spirit of the Land is planar binding. Ghaele Eladrins cast as 14th level clerics but only have 10HD. So if you can find one that has two levels in a class that advance cleric casting, you have a 12 HD creature that casts as a 16th level cleric. With a prayer bead of karma, you now have wall of stones at CL 20, drastically cutting down on the number of castings per SS.

As a bonus, they also get stone shape and stone metamorphosis earlier than their wizardly counterparts.

[Seerow]

An alternative to Spirit of the Land is planar binding. Ghaele Eladrins cast as 14th level clerics but only have 10HD. So if you can find one that has two levels in a class that advance cleric casting, you have a 12 HD creature that casts as a 16th level cleric. With a prayer bead of karma, you now have wall of stones at CL 20, drastically cutting down on the number of castings per SS.

As a bonus, they also get stone shape and stone metamorphosis earlier than their wizardly counterparts.

That actually is a great catch.

I realized two things: 1) Spellcastings need to be per SS, not per day. So fewer castings can be used just delays the process slightly. 2) The bard cohort has a couple spells that can raise caster levels by 4.

That Eladrin has 11 5th level+ spells per day, and we can boost its caster level by 2 to get it to 16, but can't quite get it to 20 for the reduced number of casts needed. That means every Eladrin we bind can give roughly enough stone for 1 SS for the day, for free walls.

The Wizard can bind cast binding 3 times per day, figuring a 2/3 success rate, we'd get 22 walls of stone every day, so competing 11 structures every 6 days. Seems like a quick enough rate for me, assuming pulling it off works out.

If not, the Giant is still on the table for half price, and with the casterlevel boosting, my Cleric can get the half price as well if all else fails, it'll just be slow going for a few levels.

[cagemarrow]

Don't forget that SM VII has access to the Djinni that can create 20 cubic feet of Permanent Plant based materials per casting. Bronze wood support beams and access to any number of plant based building materials is amazing. Tar, Varnish (amber), Rubber, and Latex are just a few real world examples of plant based building materials.

I had a Binder with Zceryll that used this to great effect. Became a lord for the Eastern Vale at the end of our Red Hand of Doom campaign because he was so loved and instrumental in the rebuilding effort. This comes online at 14th level for most binders, but with some Binder Level optimization, such as with bloodlines, can come online at 10th or so.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Seems more like an economic problem than a mechanical one to me. If they're available, DMG2 and/or, IIRC, cityscape have rules for creating a business. Use profits from the business(es) to build the stronghold. Heck have a whole town spring up around your keep while it's still under construction. Then you'll be a noble in practice, as well as title.

I would find this entertaining, but YMMV. :smallsmile:

[Seerow]

Don't forget that SM VII has access to the Djinni that can create 20 cubic feet of Permanent Plant based materials per casting. Bronze wood support beams and access to any number of plant based building materials is amazing. Tar, Varnish (amber), Rubber, and Latex are just a few real world examples of plant based building materials.

Summon Monster VII requires at least level 13, our group is currently level 10. By the time we hit level 13, this really won't be a problem anymore because we'll have enough spells per day and enough caster level boosting, and enough spare money (Landlord as Bonus feat for two party members confirmed. So right now we're playing around with 220k gold, by level 13, we'll have another 200k to add into it) that it won't be much of an issue.

I guess we could use the Eladrin's casting (assuming we can get them) for that, but honestly with how expensive walls are relative to the things you listed, his 7th level slots would be better off spent on Walls of Stone rather than Summon Monster.



Seems more like an economic problem than a mechanical one to me.

The lack of funds is an economic problem, but the cause (Walls costing literally twice as much as the rooms they're being built in) is a mechanical one. Once we get CL16+ walls of stone going, building/expanding becomes a breeze.


If they're available, DMG2 and/or, IIRC, cityscape have rules for creating a business. Use profits from the business(es) to build the stronghold. Heck have a whole town spring up around your keep while it's still under construction. Then you'll be a noble in practice, as well as title.

I would find this entertaining, but YMMV. :smallsmile:


We were actually just going to go with the rule in the Stronghold Builder's guide that says you earn 1-5% of the Stronghold's value annually, plus 1% for each nearby resource (of which we have 3). I'll probably ask the DM if he's interested in using those rules at all once things have progressed some.




For now though, we've gone ahead and mapped out the place with the assumption of only being able to get the 50% discount. If it works out we find a way of getting more, then we have plenty of room to expand. And, being the huge nerds that we are, we mapped out the whole thing to scale in Minecraft. I'm really glad we did, because seeing it all built there helps get a feeling for just how big some of those things are. When you're looking at it on paper, even mapped out on graph paper, what you get for your money seems kind of small. But then walking through it you realize "Oh wow this actually is a pretty good sized place"

[Fuzzy McCoy]

The bard cohort has a couple spells that can raise caster levels by 4.

Which spells are these? Depending on how the spells are worded, it might raise the caster level of the Sun Giant for his SLAs. If they raise it above 16 for at least a minute, great, the sun giant takes the cake. If they only raise it by 2, find a Sun Giant with the primordial giant template from Secrets of Xen'drik, which explicitly raises the CL of all SLAs by 1. Or you could ask your DM if you could double the number of castings at 12th level (to 24) to get free walls, and it's not like you care since it's an at will SLA.


The Wizard can bind cast binding 3 times per day, figuring a 2/3 success rate, we'd get 22 walls of stone every day, so competing 11 structures every 6 days. Seems like a quick enough rate for me, assuming pulling it off works out.

Just a clarification: the Eladrin's service can be a longer set period of time (say, however long you've calculated the weeks to be), or open ended ("Until the castle has been completed"), in which case the spell lasts for 1 day/CL. It also has to be bound with regular planar binding instead of the lesser version, which takes up a 6th level slot and means you'll probably be casting it from a scroll.


If not, the Giant is still on the table for half price, and with the casterlevel boosting, my Cleric can get the half price as well if all else fails, it'll just be slow going for a few levels.

There's no reason you should be casting wall of stone, since it's an at will SLA for the giant. You can still use the CL boost for Stone Metamorphosis, though.

[Seerow]

Which spells are these? Depending on how the spells are worded, it might raise the caster level of the Sun Giant for his SLAs. If they raise it above 16 for at least a minute, great, the sun giant takes the cake. If they only raise it by 2, find a Sun Giant with the primordial giant template from Secrets of Xen'drik, which explicitly raises the CL of all SLAs by 1. Or you could ask your DM if you could double the number of castings at 12th level (to 24) to get free walls, and it's not like you care since it's an at will SLA.

The two spells (Harmonic Chorus and Hymn of Praise) boost up by 2 each. Both boost for rounds per level. Hymn of Praise works on "all good aligned divine spellcasters in range" which I don't think applies to the giant, so he could only be boosted to 13.


There's no reason you should be casting wall of stone, since it's an at will SLA for the giant. You can still use the CL boost for Stone Metamorphosis, though.

I was saying even if we can't get the Giant (if all else fails), I can cast the spell myself. At this point the Giant isn't a guarantee, just something that will likely be on the table.

Basically I see getting the Giant as more likely than binding an Eladrin, which is more likely than getting the Spirit of the Land, but even if none of those work out, I can

[Gotterdammerung]

From memory, the first thing that comes to mind would be the delver out of the good ole monster manual.

You would have to check with your GM, they don't get wall of stone, but they can soften and then shape up to 25 cubic ft of stone once every 10 minutes.

If this will suffice, then your in luck. Delver's have a section in their bio talking about how they like to work for gems and minerals. And how metal is like crack cocaine to them.

So securing one to help you shouldnt be difficult.

[Jack_Simth]

A note:
Hewn Stone Walls are free underground; wooden walls are free on the first floor. A basic dungeon is surprisingly inexpensive.

How far away are you from a city, and how big is it?

[Seerow]

A note:
Hewn Stone Walls are free underground; wooden walls are free on the first floor. A basic dungeon is surprisingly inexpensive.

How far away are you from a city, and how big is it?

I suppose that doing something like that is good as a stopgap measure to make things really cheap to start with. Underground Hewn Stone is something we were already planning on (and also taking advantage of that for any outposts we build, by putting a tower on a hill, with the barracks and such built under the hill)

Wood we were wanting to avoid for the main building because it isn't just a personal home, but a keep for the new Barony, so something a little more durable is desired. But looking at it now, that is a really good deal. I could see us using that as the internal wall all over, and as the freestanding wall until we're ready to start spamming free walls everywhere.

As for how far from a city, we're like 100miles from the nearest city of a decent size. I think we determined we qualified for the 2% discount and have enough of a budget from the city to afford anything we're looking at.




@Gotterdammerung: The book is pretty specific on which spells do and don't work. Soften/Shape I think have other benefits listed in the book, but wall of stone is specifically what is needed for the free stones.

[Fuzzy McCoy]

The two spells (Harmonic Chorus and Hymn of Praise) boost up by 2 each. Both boost for rounds per level. Hymn of Praise works on "all good aligned divine spellcasters in range" which I don't think applies to the giant, so he could only be boosted to 13.

Unless my copy of the Monster Manual 2 has a publishing error, I've got the giant's CL as 13, which means that plus harmonic chorus and the primordial giant template (or an orange ioun stone, but that's money that could be spent elsewhere), you hit the magic 16! With a lesser rod of extend, that's a few stronghold spaces a day.

[Seerow]

Unless my copy of the Monster Manual 2 has a publishing error, I've got the giant's CL as 13, which means that plus harmonic chorus and the primordial giant template (or an orange ioun stone, but that's money that could be spent elsewhere), you hit the magic 16! With a lesser rod of extend, that's a few stronghold spaces a day.

You're right the base CL is 13, that should have said we can't boost him past 15, still short of the magic number.

As for the primordial template, finding a Sun Giant that we can convince to help is iffy enough. The odds of finding a Primordial one probably less so.

[Fuzzy McCoy]

For getting a sun giant's help, I'd say Charm Monster is the way to go. It makes negotiations so much easier! And while the primordial template is certainly one way to go, there's also the orange ioun stone. Much more expensive, but definitely works. If neither, then yeah, no free walls :smallsigh: