Dungeon Master Melancholy

[Hyde]

My problem is more general roleplaying, but I've put it here because it's within the context of 3.5/Pathfinder and as such the solutions may be contextual as a result.

Basically, I'm not sure if I'm even having fun with the game anymore, because I can't do what I want to do, because new players. The details, long-winded as they are, are as follows.


I've been playing with the same group for close to six years, usually as the DM.

We recently added two new(ish) members, while losing one, bringing our total number of PCs to six.
which, frankly, is entirely too many when one of them is new to the game and two still act like it.


I don't really run dungeon crawls, and I despise modules. My DMing tends to run toward creating worlds massive in scope and then getting down to the details as it pertains to the characters as individuals. It makes for some very engaging story, and nobody minded that it could mean spending up to twenty minutes following a single character- it was genuinely that entertaining. Combat was relatively rare, yet always an option- at any given time, there was a mission board with odd-jobs the players could do if they wanted a break from the RP.

And then these two new guys show up.

The thing is that we're all supposedly very good friends, so telling them that maybe they shouldn't play would be taken as a personal insult- and then there's the fact that the new-new guy should be given a fair shake at having a DM worth anything.

So I'm stuck catering to these guys, who are still in the honeymoon stage of the game where they want to kill the things and get the treasure (one of them understandably so).

What they don't get is that with six players, combat of even minimal challenge tends to drag on, especially with each of them spending the first minute of their turn going "um..." I shouldn't be able to get through the actions of thirty six goblins faster than a ranger decides to fire a couple of arrows.

Basically, they would be happy running modules- and I can't do that, and the only fun part about playing with the guy willing to DM modules is complaining about it afterward.

I don't really want to just quit, but frankly I should be preparing the dungeon for this weekend, and I cannot bring myself to care enough to do it.

[AntiTrust]

Why didn't you just tell them when they were considering joining that your style isn't hack and slash?

[GenghisDon]

quit, take a break, tell them "sorry, no room", or whatever you have to.

DMing while not enjoying it is unsustanable.

OTOH, sometimes player's can breath new life into tired old genres, so IF you can give it some honest effort/enthusiasm, play. It might be just a break you need.

[killem2]

can I ask what you do to advance your characters along if it isn't combat based? I assume you have SOME combat going on right?

[DeusMortuusEst]

can I ask what you do to advance your characters along if it isn't combat based? I assume you have SOME combat going on right?

Not necessarily, I've played many sessions of 3.5 where we didn't enter combat a single time. Instead there was a lot of role playing, intrigues and sneaking around. Encounters - sure, combat - not so much.

[Bloodgruve]

Ask another in the group to DM so you can have some PC time. Six years in a group should have someone else at least competent. Take turns weekly or tell them to go play Diablo :P

GL
Blood~

[Hyde]

Why didn't you just tell them when they were considering joining that your style isn't hack and slash?

Did obviously.

Let's try and come up with things that aren't obvious, if it's not too much trouble.

[eggs]

Does saying you're not too into it and letting the campaign drop count as obvious? Because it sounds like you're not too into it and should let the campaign drop.

If you GM another game and don't want to reward killing things and taking their stuff, you also might want to try with a system that isn't completely based around killing/looting in its character stats, archetypal niches, metagame rewards, etc.

[krai]

Suggest to the players that the group should use a timer to keep combat on track. If you don't decide what you are going to do within 90 seconds or one minute (whatever seems like they would be able to cope with), then they have to hold their turn. Hopefully knowing there is a time limit will just make sure people stay on track as opposed to this being a rule that actually has to come into effect.

[rot42]

I have had some success with actively drawing out such players and then enthusiastically running with anything they come up with (within reason), but I have never tried with a group like yours. Six people is the most I will DM for, and even then only if they are all actively engaged and can encourage a positive group dynamic. You could try engineering some situations recognizably drawn from literature they enjoy as a method for encouraging engagement.

Really, though, there is nothing wrong with telling the group you want a month or three off (indefinite but not forever). Relax, jot down the occasional campaign idea when it comes to you, and either restart or form a new group when that sounds like fun. Losing an awesome campaign sucks, but not as much as a hobby that feels like a chore.

[Eldan]

How about splitting the group, at least for a while? Play alternatively with the three newer and the three older players. Play a slower game with the newbies, showing them the ropes and get a bit more secure in the rules and their roleplaying. Six is rather a lot anyway, three might work better.

[dascarletm]

How about splitting the group, at least for a while? Play alternatively with the three newer and the three older players. Play a slower game with the newbies, showing them the ropes and get a bit more secure in the rules and their roleplaying. Six is rather a lot anyway, three might work better.

My friend did that except we had 12 people.:smalleek:

I was gone a session and found out that six new people joined. I talked to him after the first session with the newbies. The session 4-5hours was one combat versus 3 goblins and a psychic plant.:smallfrown:
He decided to split the group. It was me and the 2 other guys who were there from the start, his sister and friend, and another new person.

So.... It can be fun to split it unconventionally.

[Hyde]

Does saying you're not too into it and letting the campaign drop count as obvious? Because it sounds like you're not too into it and should let the campaign drop.

If you GM another game and don't want to reward killing things and taking their stuff, you also might want to try with a system that isn't completely based around killing/looting in its character stats, archetypal niches, metagame rewards, etc.

I've considered this.

My problem with this is that the other people who want to DM will utterly ruin the game for the new-new guy, and I don't really want that to happen.

Of course, my lack of interest might end up doing the same.

As far as going to a new system, they typically can't be bothered to remember the rules for the one system, so I'm uncertain they could handle another.

[Hyde]

Splitting the group is a great idea that unfortunately won't work in this exact situation, because of the social dynamic involved (Everyone is friends and has been for years).

Appreciate the feedback.

I think I'm going to come up with a way to destroy the current campaign world in a way that makes sense and doesn't look at all contrived, and then let them deal with the fallout that will most certainly be more dungeon-y and less thinking and role-playing-y.

And I have just the fellow.

I would like to note that "role-playing-y" is a word according to the firefox spellchecker. This amuses me.

[Seerow]

Splitting the group is a great idea that unfortunately won't work in this exact situation, because of the social dynamic involved (Everyone is friends and has been for years).


Well he did mention that splitting the group didn't need to be permanent. Just explain that you'd like to run a few sessions with the new guys separate from everyone else to get them up to speed and a feel for how things work, and maybe with a bit more hack-slash to help get that out of their system, then give a story lead in after a few sessions for them to meet up with the rest of the group, and everything's back to normal, and hopefully some of the issues with the new guys' playstyle have been worked out.

[Hyde]

You're basically going to have to understand that I understand the group's social situation better than anyone, and splitting the party is not an option.

They don't want to play DnD because they want to play DnD, they want to play DnD because their friends play DnD, and they want to hang out with their friends.

...That explanation was a lot simpler than I thought it would be.

[slaydemons]

I had a friend like this once.... everyone that has heard troubles of mine knows it was one guy in a couple of sessions. he was a wizard that by all respects should of played a warrior. I personally tell my friends that "I really don't feel in the mood to dm would it be possible for one of you guys to dm so I can play as a player and not have to worry about everything, while I appreciate you guys liking me as gm I am not a machine." then explain that you really dislike modules because you really dislike the game as a hack and slash

[Hyde]

Part of it is that I don't like hack and slash.

But really, has anyone ever found modules challenging in the slightest?

Just in case I wasn't crazy, I went and did a standard point-buy character of the level the module was supposed to be run at and proceeded to solo the entire thing.

Edit: taking experience as if I were in a party of four.

Modules I've played include the Lost caverns of Tsoj'canth and Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. And a few others the names of which escape me.



Actually, that's a good question. Have you guys played modules that weren't just entirely one-sided?

[ThiagoMartell]

You have basically two options: stop DMing or continue DMing. Both are going to hurt somewhat, decide which one you prefer. There is no magical solution.

[Eldan]

You're basically going to have to understand that I understand the group's social situation better than anyone, and splitting the party is not an option.

They don't want to play DnD because they want to play DnD, they want to play DnD because their friends play DnD, and they want to hang out with their friends.

...That explanation was a lot simpler than I thought it would be.

Are you sure you couldn't convince them to maybe play two sessions without all of their friends, if you give them a reasonable explanation for doing so?
I mean, you said in the first post that you have spent long itmes on single characters before without having much problem. THis is basically the same.

If the problem is more the hanging out, and the palyers are cool with it, split them in game, then take turns playing with them while the other half waits, at the table. Not sure how happy they would be with that.

Bring along something like a quick card or board game and some snacks. Split the party during the campaign. Play half an hour with one half, then half an hour with the other half. Let the other players decide if they want to watch do something else, go home, etc.

[Hyde]

You have basically two options: stop DMing or continue DMing. Both are going to hurt somewhat, decide which one you prefer. There is no magical solution.

Oh my, why didn't I think of it in overly simplified terms that basically ignore the nuances of everything, ever. You have shown me the light.


Do I really have to say "I would like to continue DMing but maybe there's a different way to do it that everyone will enjoy"?

Do we believe there is only DMing, and not DMing?

Personally I think there is Fifty Shades of DMing.

Which is a copyrighted title.

Not really.

[Hyde]

Are you sure you couldn't convince them to maybe play two sessions without all of their friends, if you give them a reasonable explanation for doing so?
I mean, you said in the first post that you have spent long itmes on single characters before without having much problem. THis is basically the same.

If the problem is more the hanging out, and the palyers are cool with it, split them in game, then take turns playing with them while the other half waits, at the table. Not sure how happy they would be with that.

Bring along something like a quick card or board game and some snacks. Split the party during the campaign. Play half an hour with one half, then half an hour with the other half. Let the other players decide if they want to watch do something else, go home, etc.

So to itemize the problem with this- If they were fine doing something else while other people were playing DnD, then they wouldn't currently be playing DnD.

Spending time on single characters was exactly what they had a problem with, otherwise I wouldn't be having the issues I'm having, so something that is "basically the same" would be similarly right out.

I read "the other half waits" as "the other half-wits" originally. I think there may be something Freudian going on here.

[Zerter]

I can give you some ideas on how to get things moving along, I doubt it's anything you've not considered already and it won't fix the problem but it might adress some of the symptons. Time might fix the problem tho so dealing with the symptons for now could be enough.

Make sure everything their characters can do is written out in a sheet in front of their nose. There should be no time spend looking up spells, summons, animal companions, feats or to-hit modifiers. If the rangers has various feats affecting his archery, the different to-hit modifiers and attack rolls should be written out seperatly.

Tell them they need to make combat decisions fast unless _special circumstances_. Engage their experienced friends to help them with this, make sure they understand it can't take forever (explaining stuff) etc. so just have them recommend actions based on a short reasoning why and tell the players they'll explain the full logic afterwards while the focus of the campaign is elsewhere.

Make encounters that move things along. A monster that dies quick but is extremely dangerous while alive can make for a interesting encounter.

A monster that needs to be dealt with through cleverness rather than anything mechanically can be a great encounter. For example a ghost-like being that slowly sucks the life out of them and seems invulnerable to everything they do (don't roll iniative, just tell them to tell you what they do and then tell them it fails) but can be stopped by figuring out what it wants and giving it to him.

Given the ways your campaigns have been set up I'm sure you already do this, but make sure to mechanically reward things outside of combat. Maybe design a challenge outside of combat where you know some of the players while specifically shine. If the problem players that's good, but since that's probably not the case do something that puts a spotlight on some of the stronger aspects of the experienced players.

[Bloodgruve]

Oh my, why didn't I think of it in overly simplified terms that basically ignore the nuances of everything, ever. You have shown me the light.


Did obviously.

Let's try and come up with things that aren't obvious, if it's not too much trouble.

It sounds to me like you're unhappy about more than just DM'ing a group that wants a bit more combat.

[ThiagoMartell]

Oh my, why didn't I think of it in overly simplified terms that basically ignore the nuances of everything, ever. You have shown me the light.


Do I really have to say "I would like to continue DMing but maybe there's a different way to do it that everyone will enjoy"?

Do we believe there is only DMing, and not DMing?

Personally I think there is Fifty Shades of DMing.

Which is a copyrighted title.

Not really.
Man, there is no need to get so confrontational. I was just trying to help. Chill.

[robertbevan]

Did obviously.

Let's try and come up with things that aren't obvious, if it's not too much trouble.


Oh my, why didn't I think of it in overly simplified terms that basically ignore the nuances of everything, ever. You have shown me the light.


Do I really have to say "I would like to continue DMing but maybe there's a different way to do it that everyone will enjoy"?

Do we believe there is only DMing, and not DMing?

Personally I think there is Fifty Shades of DMing.

Which is a copyrighted title.

Not really.



I read "the other half waits" as "the other half-wits" originally. I think there may be something Freudian going on here.

as i gaze into my crystal ball, the fog is fading. the source of your problem is becoming clearer to me. i've almost got it. keep talking.

[Eldan]

Okay, I think I'll be a bit blunt here. This does not sound like you want any solutions. We have given what advice we can, really, and you have shot it down.

It seems to me that you are really unhappy with your situation and that you want to end this game, since you are not satisfied with it anymore, and it is stressing you out as a DM. However, these people are your friends, and you don't want to disappoint them. That's fair.

Here's what I think you should do at this point. Sit down at a table with all of them, and explain to them, calmly and in detail, why you are disatisfied. Tell them that this game is not working for you anymore. Don't blame them, give facts. "Combat is taking too long, and I don't like it" is better than "You guys don't know the rules enough, that annoys me". The first is a statement, the second is blaming.

Tell them you either need a change, or a break. There's not really much of a way around it.

[Hyde]

Man, there is no need to get so confrontational. I was just trying to help. Chill.

And I appreciate the effort.

I'm sorry, I've just been in this really bad mood.

Blah. Well, it seems I have some things to think about. Thanks for all the fish.

[Zubrowka74]

Can the more experienced players help the noob go faster ? And perhaps coax them into your style of play. If they like your campaign they'll have to help save it. Because if you don't find a solution your going to stop it, right ?

I've had sessions like these where friends and family joined the group just to have an excuse to drink beer and smoke pot. To my experience, it never works, moreso with large groups, 8 and up.

[McToomin]

Why didn't you just tell them when they were considering joining that your style isn't hack and slash?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_zJv17X2CI4c/TNQAr-cg__I/AAAAAAAAB_E/YB4Eo2gws4E/s1600/Captain+Hindsight.png

[Randomguy]

Did you already do a session with these guys? How did it go?
Try doing your normal game, but throw in at least one or two
combats each session for the new guys so they can start learning the ropes.

[GenghisDon]

You're basically going to have to understand that I understand the group's social situation better than anyone, and splitting the party is not an option.

They don't want to play DnD because they want to play DnD, they want to play DnD because their friends play DnD, and they want to hang out with their friends.

...That explanation was a lot simpler than I thought it would be.

It is.

Now I suggest you switch games. To a game where combat is much faster, yet still can be rewarding, and the time saved thusly can be split easier between RP & combat (& maybe some puzzles or whatever else the various players & you enjoy). If you want the D&D name I suggest B/X or even 1e AD&D. Or Labyrinth Lord/OSRIC type clones of same. They handle large groups of players VASTLY better (they were designed for double to tripple the 4 man squads of d20).

Everyone gets to hang out & be friends, roll to kill some monsters, get into a role, and you aren't driven batty by it. I suggest the battle mats & minis be put aside, as well, for the most part.

[Karoht]

For someone who talked about subtle nuances and shades of grey, I find it odd that you feel that Role Playing and Combat can't happen in the same session. You do seem to be treating the two as mutually exclusive items, apples and oranges, rather than seeing that they are part of the same game, one bowl of fruit. Forest for the trees and all that jazz.
Just pointing it out because it seems rather odd.

Also, despite warning the hack and slash players that you're not a hack and slash DM, I think you are expecting them to just turn on the roleplay button like toggling a switch. They might need some time to get used to the roleplay part that they are likely not familiar with. Maybe give them a better environment to do so (in game). They might just need a nudge, they might need to be thrown off a cliff, or something in between.

My suggestion. Do your normal amount of roleplaying. Add one combat. It doesn't have to be huge. It might not even have to involve the whole party. It could just be a duel over a matter. It could be skill based instead of combative. Consider adding another, if it feels appropriate. One additional combat from the norm isn't going to destroy your game.

But, if you do honestly feel uninterested, then I would advise just being honest with your party and tell them that you are feeling uninterested. You don't have to say anything about how they are playing if you don't want to. Who knows? Maybe they will have a suggestion that might help. Maybe they are more aware of the problem than they are letting on.

[AntiTrust]

Did obviously.

Let's try and come up with things that aren't obvious, if it's not too much trouble.

Didn't really sound like it from the post, more like they jumped into it and either you didn't explain it or they didn't listen. In either case making it clear that its not the kind of game that you're going for is key to fixing it. Your friends won't abandon you just because you're running a game they're not interested in. The only other option is to knuckle down and just add more combat, my players go in all sorts of directions I don't particularly agree with, but I run them through it just the same. Its the same courtesy they give me when my villains ie ME enjoy a nice mustache twirling monologue.

PS Sarcasm should be color coded so we lay people know you're not always condescending :smallwink:

[vrigar]

I think you need an accomplice within the players - someone who makes combat faster or avoids it altogether. Make sure to shower that accomplice with XP / item bonuses so it would be obvious which behavior is favored by the DM.
BTW, I wasn't clear about it from your post - did you actually talk with the group about the problem? I once had a sit-down with the group regarding how the game is played and the result (though not lasting too long) were awesome.