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Togath
2012-07-26, 01:33 PM
While designing an rpg I started to wonder; would it disappoint players if classes got new abilities slower as they reached very high levels?
Currently level 1-20 in the system I'm making gives about 15-20 abilities, but I had been pondering cutting it down to one ability every four or five levels for levels 21-40(40 being the max level in an individual class) to make the classes easier to write(also during the empty levels, while you dont gain new things, nearly all abilities scale with level)
My only experience with rpgs has been dungeons and dragons, and pathfinder, where empty levels are considered a bad thing, so i wasn't sure if a difference in systems would make it possible to have them.

eggs
2012-07-26, 01:37 PM
If levels don't get new stuff, what are they for?

Togath
2012-07-26, 01:40 PM
Well, my point was that the empty levels give hit points, magic points, avoidance(this system's version of armour class from dnd) hit chance and they scale your earlier abilities up, though I wasn't sure if players would be interested in those once they reached the points where they started up, or if players would be willing to stay in the class instead of multiclassing to get the higher level abilities.
edit: I'm also going for a large number of levels in the base game, as I want it to be roughly 2-4 times the length of getting to level 20 in dungeons and dragons, as I've always found reaching level 20 in dungeons and dragons to be somewhat disappointing as it comes so soon.

eggs
2012-07-26, 01:48 PM
Okay, as long as a character keeps getting better at its schtick, there's nothing wrong with it except possibly aesthetics.

I usually even prefer class systems not to give many distinct abilities past the starting point anyway - D&D's paladins and rangers sprouting spells out of nowhere at a certain point always rubbed me the wrong way.

One thing that might complicate this is if characters are allowed to jump between classes d20-style. In those sorts of systems, slowing down or cutting off class features at level X is a good way to make sure nobody ever takes level X+1.

Togath
2012-07-26, 02:03 PM
How about only allowing a class to multiclass into at maximum one other class?, Giving some varity, but still making it worth going through a few dead levels to gain new abilities? There is also some overlap between class abilities at levels 1-20.

Kuma Kode
2012-07-27, 11:03 AM
Rappelz is an MMO with multiple classes and advanced classes that had an interesting mechanic with its pets called "overbreeding." Essentially, once your pet hits level 50 or whatever, it is elligible to evolve into another form. If you continue to level it up, though without changing it, its stats grow faster. You can do this with characters, too.

A Dark Magician is elligible to become a Chaos Magician at level 40, but Dark Magician goes up to 50. No new abilities get unlocked past 40, but each level up increases your character's stats slightly faster than is standard.

So perhaps you could have the dead levels bump the stats up slightly so the player has to make the choice between raw power and versatility rather than versatility and nothing.

prufock
2012-07-27, 11:55 AM
Currently level 1-20 in the system I'm making gives about 15-20 abilities, but I had been pondering cutting it down to one ability every four or five levels for levels 21-40(40 being the max level in an individual class) to make the classes easier to write(also during the empty levels, while you dont gain new things, nearly all abilities scale with level)
...
the empty levels give hit points, magic points, avoidance(this system's version of armour class from dnd) hit chance and they scale your earlier abilities up


From the player perspective, here's my opinion: numbers are boring.

We all know that the challenge is going to be ramped up to match the new power level of the characters. So if I gain 5 extra hit points, for example, but the enemies are doing 5 extra points of damage, that's a net increase of 0. Same with to-hit and avoidance.

"Magic points," depending on how you're using them, might be slightly different. I envision this as meaning they can use their magic powers more often. While still not as much fun as new powers, it's better than simple scaling numbers.

If you want to cut down on the amount of powers, why not just cut down on the amount of levels? You could slow progression through levels if that's a concern.

I think each level should have something about which the player can get excited, even if it's just one new spell. Who ever takes Rogue 20?

Sipex
2012-07-27, 12:28 PM
I think that the end game for your RPG is going to feel very grindy and slow unless there are other obvious avenues for players to increase their repertoire of options and abilities.

Have you considered creating improved versions (improved beyond numbers) of the current abilities you hand out players? If you have them replace the old versions then you'll have the slower pace of ability earnings at the end but your players will still get new(ish) stuff to play with.

Togath
2012-07-27, 01:19 PM
How about, slower ability gain(but only by a small ammount, so instead of every 1-2 levels, every 4-5), but with the abilities being strong enough to be worth it(in that they share characteristics of weaker abilities, but are more effective and may have new effects), and somewhat faster stat gain after level 20?(including 1-2 extra "action points" which allow you to take more actions in a round, and a larger then normal stat boost at level 40).
Though if i do come up with abilities to add to the dead levels, I'll rpboably add them.
Would new spells be worth an otherwise dead except for stats level?
One problem i am having is that, the characters, may(not 100% sure yet as i haven't playtested anything at the moment) either one shot most enemies(or just heal constantly with low cost heals/ignore damage with damage resistance, or alternatively, take several rounds(10+) to kill mooks while taking little or no damage.

Tengu_temp
2012-07-27, 04:23 PM
My only experience with rpgs has been dungeons and dragons, and pathfinder

Get to know more RPGs before you make your own one.

Knaight
2012-07-27, 04:26 PM
My only experience with rpgs has been dungeons and dragons, and pathfinder, where empty levels are considered a bad thing, so i wasn't sure if a difference in systems would make it possible to have them.

If this is the totality of your experience, you probably shouldn't be designing an RPG. At the very least, read the rules of a few other RPGs, even if you don't play them - the genre is incredibly broad, and there is a lot of stuff in there that can help one make informed decisions as a designer.

Morty
2012-07-27, 04:40 PM
I agree that D&D and Pathfinder are not enough of a base to theorize about RPGs, or to make your own one. Heck, most RPGs don't actually have levels. D&D and Earthdawn are the only ones I can think of that do. Many RPGs don't have hit points and classes.

Togath
2012-07-27, 05:02 PM
If it helps, I have read the base rules(or at least the ones I was able to find for free) for call of cthulu, shadowrun, and GURPS, I've also read the core rulebooks for dungeons and dragons 2E and 4E.
I have been avoiding looking into rpgs without levels, as part of the point of the one I'm making is to gain levels.
Also, if it does help any, i have played a lot of rpg video games, and also play warhammer(the tabletop wargame, not the video games or the tabletop rpg).
edit; also what do you mean by "many rpgs dont have hp"?, how can you slay a monster/enemy in one without having hp available.

Baron Corm
2012-07-27, 05:29 PM
I'm of the opinion that about five or six abilities for a 20-level class is a good amount. As long as a player is getting his +1d6 sneak attack or Evasion -> Improved Evasion on a level, he'll be happy. Even going into 30 levels or more, +1d6 sneak attack or Improved Evasion -> Epic Evasion would still mean something. The trick would just be to make sure you start out with significant abilities that have room for scaling.

Raum
2012-07-27, 05:34 PM
what do you mean by "many rpgs dont have hp"?, how can you slay a monster/enemy in one without having hp available.There are other measures of health or narrative presence. FATE uses consequences, Shadowrun and Savage Worlds have limited and fixed health tracks / hit points, True20 uses a toughness save, PDQ uses a 'damage ranks' concept where damage directly reduces stats, some games use a negotiation of bidding system, some use hit locations, and in others you simply can't die.

Whatever you choose, I recommend against the ever escalating D&D type system. It's a relative rarity for a reason.

Togath
2012-07-27, 05:48 PM
What do you mean by "ever escalating"?
I'm trying to understand which part you mean, but I dont really understand.
Par tof the point of the game I'm makign is 1: for your character to gain power, and 2: for the game to last a long time, with mechanics beign plausable up to an infinite level.

Terraoblivion
2012-07-27, 06:02 PM
edit; also what do you mean by "many rpgs dont have hp"?, how can you slay a monster/enemy in one without having hp available.

From what I've seen, which is far from exhaustive, the most common solution is a rather small, more or less fixed, pool of wounds which are similar to hp, except you don't have a lot of them and losing even a few causes meaningful penalties.

However, there are lots of other options. Don't Rest Your Head doesn't have any kind of damage, for example, and every battle or other challenge consists of a single roll. However, to succeed, you'll often have to draw on powers that will ultimately destroy you, making it a matter of constant risk assessment whether giving up and trying to find an easier solution is a better idea than to keep going and gradually working your way closer to death.

Legends of the Wulin has a system where every attack adds to a pool of dice that get rolled when a stronger hit lands. Depending on what's rolled on those stronger hits the target takes status penalties, ranging from small ones that have no real impact except making it easier to cause more serious injuries to death. The nature of these penalties can be everything from a side wound that limits the use of an arm to severe bleeding from the forehead obscuring vision or pretty much anything else that the player can come up with, both in terms of description, penalties and what actions can be taken to avoid the penalties. Various abilities extend this to possible "wounds" being things like shaking confidence in a cause or cursing people to being overrun by rats whenever they stay in one place for longer than a day. It's also very hard to kill people and even if you do, everyone makes a final "wound" roll at the end of the battle, giving people a strong incentive to fleeing or surrendering instead of fighting to the death, the consequences of winning a tight battle to the death might just be that bad.

These are just a couple more to add to the ones Raum mentioned and elaborate on them some.

Raum
2012-07-27, 06:17 PM
What do you mean by "ever escalating"?
I'm trying to understand which part you mean, but I dont really understand.
Par tof the point of the game I'm makign is 1: for your character to gain power,Gaining power because of the level alone is what I'm discussing. Much better to tie power to abilities and skills - helps reduce D&D style absurdities like town guards being completely ineffective against Fred simply because he went out and killed a few monsters. :smallmad:


and 2: for the game to last a long time, with mechanics beign plausable up to an infinite level.You don't need levels for this...in fact levels can reduce playability...see the E6 games for a reaction to it. In any case, the longest games I've run have been in systems without levels.

Togath
2012-07-27, 06:25 PM
Gaining power because of the level alone is what I'm discussing. Much better to tie power to abilities and skills - helps reduce D&D style absurdities like town guards being completely ineffective against Fred simply because he went out and killed a few monsters. :smallmad:.

The town guard senario is actually the sort of thing I'm trying to encourage with the system.

kamikasei
2012-07-27, 06:33 PM
HP: Risus has a system where the loser of a conflict takes a penalty to the ability she used for it. Mutants & Masterminds (2e at least) uses a Toughness save where rolling below the damage DC of an attack gives you cumulative penalties to the save until you fail by a wide enough margin to be taken out of the fight.

I have been avoiding looking into rpgs without levels, as part of the point of the one I'm making is to gain levels.
Even if it's true that the point is to gain levels, you should still be trying to figure out what things are essential to such a system and which aren't. From what else you've said, it's possible that the point is not to gain levels but to achieve other things that you think are inextricably linked to levels because your base of knowledge is narrow.

Raum
2012-07-27, 07:04 PM
The town guard senario is actually the sort of thing I'm trying to encourage with the system.Why?

To me, it's far more interesting when the character becomes dangerous because they learned a new ability or skill. Getting tougher and harder to hit purely because you survived doesn't make a lot of sense and gets worse when the increase is enough to make them functionally immune to a previously feared opponent.

Tis your game though - if you really feel a level based escalation is integral to what you want don't let me talk you out of it.

Togath
2012-07-27, 07:23 PM
Part of the reason I wanted players to advance quickly in stats as well as abilities was to explain why the town doesn't just send their own people to handle the problem.
I also did have one neat idea which does fit with the setting; what about fluffing xp gain from killing enemies as absorbing part of their soul?, it would fit with the other fluff I have in place as many spells and abilities mimic monsters, and the most common enemies are otherworldly, coming from a different dimension in order to obtain souls, which they absorb to gain power.
Also, characters do gain a lot of new abiltiies as they gain power, as every class has access to the main spells and spends points from a pool to increase their skill in various types of magic(such as iron magic, wood magic or squid magic)

Fiery Diamond
2012-07-27, 07:51 PM
Why?

To me, it's far more interesting when the character becomes dangerous because they learned a new ability or skill. Getting tougher and harder to hit purely because you survived doesn't make a lot of sense and gets worse when the increase is enough to make them functionally immune to a previously feared opponent.

Tis your game though - if you really feel a level based escalation is integral to what you want don't let me talk you out of it.

Well, I can't speak for anyone else specifically, but this is not just an RPG/game phenomenon - there are stories in movies, comics, and books based on the premise. Just because for some people, such as (I assume) yourself, this is suspension of disbelief breaking doesn't mean it is for everyone. Many people LIKE the concept and find it enjoyable or cool (such as myself, when it is done in certain ways - consistency is important). "It gets worse when" for you, but there are others for whom that's "it gets better when." It's a matter of taste. Just like food.

Ugh. Pineapple.

Knaight
2012-07-27, 07:55 PM
edit; also what do you mean by "many rpgs dont have hp"?, how can you slay a monster/enemy in one without having hp available.
See, questions like this are why you need to see more systems. There are dozens of different ways to handle this, from individual wound systems to penalty accumulation systems, to broad conflict systems that end with both sides having accumulated fallout of some sort that could be most anything.

Hiro Protagonest
2012-07-27, 07:57 PM
I know the rules to these games:

D&D 3.X, 4e
Exalted
Burn Legend (rules-lite martial arts version of Exalted, much better due to its simplicity and balance, can be found in Shards of the Exalted Dream)
Strands of Fate
Spirit of the Century

And I've skimmed the L5R 3.5 rules at a bookstore.

D&D is the only system I've seen where your character gains more hit points with level. SoF and SotC have it scale with your skills; SoF with the Strength and Endurance attributes, SotC with certain combat/toughness skills. In Exalted, the only way to get more than the basic health levels is through the correct Charm for your exalt type, and mortals can't gain any more at all. Burn Legend doesn't have any way of increasing health levels beyond in-combat healing techniques.

D&D is also the only class-based system I've seen. The others are all point-based.

3.5 is also the second-most broken system I have ever seen (the most broken being Exalted 2.0).

And finally, I, personally, disagree with some of the fundamental design principles in 3.5. The principle that combat needs a bunch of rules, but social situations are covered by roleplaying and a couple of unbalanced skills. The principle of leveling, actually, by the fact that slaughtering a dozen monsters and exploring a dungeon means you can put another point in diplomacy, or that ten sessions of nation-building and negotiations means you become noticeably tougher and more skilled in combat. The principle that by level five, you can stand for six seconds in a fire with no protection and suffer negligible damage. The principle that the PCs somehow gain all these things, but an NPC commoner who's optimized to use a crossbow and hunts CR 1/4 and 1/3 encounters all the time might become a low-level ranger or wilderness rogue over the course of his lifetime at best.

Morty
2012-07-30, 06:06 AM
In addition to what's been said, I can't think of many games where the advancement curve is as steep as in D&D - in which you start as a more or less normal person but start performing inhuman feats with a few levels under your belt then skyrocket from there. While there are systems where you're extremely powerful - Exalted, high-point GURPS - they tend to have a consistent power level. I don't claim to know all RPGs out there, of course.

Togath
2012-07-30, 03:22 PM
The high number of levels in classes was largely because I had wanted to avoid the steep curve of DnD, so, aye, I too prefer a consistent leveling process.
Also; the classes mainly provide base class abilities, such as starting HP and Magic Points, a small amount of HP and magic points gained from gaining levels, or things such as proficiencies, and some class specific abilities.
Most increases to defense, hit chance, damage, magic points, and hit-points are also gained from your own stats(altogether you get about 80 stat points to distribute from leveling), though many benefits from high stats are determined from level(HP for example scales both with level and your constitution stat, a constitution of 15 on a level 1 character gives +15HP, and a constitution of 15 on a level 20 would give +110HP total., though I may adjust the scaling at some point to make it more balanced)