[PF] Best Thief? Steal Combat Maneuver Specialist

[Chained Birds]

Greetings everyone,

I'm here today because I am very curious on which class, race, prestige, etc. would make the best use out of the Steal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Steal) Combat Maneuver and even, perhaps, the Sleight of Hand (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/sleight-of-hand) Skill.

Now when I mean best, I mean that they can pretty much steal everything they can off of the opponent without them realizing it before it is too late.
- Steal a thugs weapon then pick a fight with them, only to defeat them with their own weapon.
- Steal the BBEG's mcguffen of ultimate evil during the final battle, and leave as though you were completely defeated with the prize in hand.

I would also like to see if this Ultimate Thief can also be a good fighter if he/she encounters enemies with mostly unstealable items.

Class and Archetypes I've found to be good at thieving.

Races
- Goblin: +4 to Dex works well with Sleight of Hand and Dex based Thieves.
- Halfling: Their Shiftless Alternate Racial Trait gives them Sleight of Hand as a class skill regardless of whether they go Rogue or not.
- Human: Bonus Feat = Combat Expertise and Improved Steal at level 1.
- Strix: Flying is a good way to get away after swiping your loot.
- Grippli: Can take the Agile Tongue feat to make their steal/disarm checks from 10 feet away.

Classes
- Bard (Prankster): [Gnome Only] Gain an ability by level 5 which allows you to switch an item you have with an item your opponent has, as long as they are of similar shapes.
- Rogue (Filcher): [Halfling Only] Gain Improved/Greater Steal for free, and can use Sleight of Hand instead of a CM to Steal in combat.
- Rogue (Skulking Slayer): [Half-Orc Only] Can Steal or Dirty Trick in place of a Sneak Attack and gets a bonus on the attempt = to (SA Dice) x1.5.
- Fighter (Lore Warden): Gets Combat Expertise as a Bonus Feat at level 2, and a +2 CMB bonus at level 3.
- Monk (Maneuver Master): Allows to a Maneuver multiple times as a Full-Round Action, also grants bonuses to the maneuvers as a Swift Action.

Prestige
- Low Templar: Gains a +2 CMB bonus at level 2.

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Assuming a level 9 character (and 23 point-buy). What is the best thief anyone can come up with. I'll be working on my own, but would like to put more classes and race suggestion on the list above.

Good Building Everyone!

[Crasical]

You missed Grippli (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-grippli), who can take the Agile Tongue (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/agile-tongue-grippli) feat to make their steal checks from 10 feet away.

For what it's worth I suspect halfling will be the winner here.

[grarrrg]

For what it's worth I suspect halfling will be the winner here.

Agreed. Filcher Halfling will win the "Best Thief" competition.
But Chained Birds also wanted "to see if this Ultimate Thief can also be a good fighter if he/she encounters enemies with mostly unstealable items."

Halflings can trade their +1 Save bonus for a 3/day +2 bonus on the Attack/Skill/Ability/etc... roll/check of their choice.
And trading Sure-Footed for the +2 bonus on Sleight of Hand and Bluff.

In general, the Skill Focus (+3, eventually +6) and Deft Hands (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/deft-hands---final) (+2 > +4) feats can help.

Most of the Filcher's abilities taper off after level 8, when they get Greater Steal and can ignore the +5 CMD for attached/fastened items.
The only scaling bonuses are the 1/2 level penalty opponents get on Perception, and a full level reduction of penalty when you attempt to steal as a Move instead of a Standard.
This second one we can outright ignore, either by just Standard action stealing or through the use of the Quick Steal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/quick-steal-combat) feat. This feat also helps our fighting ability, because we can Steal AND Fight in the same round.

The only Advanced Rogue talent that would help is Weapon Snatcher which lets you use Sleight of Hand in place of Disarm.
Otherwise Fast Fingers gives you a "roll 2 take best" on Sleight of Hand a couple time per day (1 + 1 for every 5 Rogue levels).


As for a more Combat Capable, you'd probably have to leave out going for Filcher 8, probably stopping at Filcher 5 for the extra use of Fast Fingers, and the +1d6 Sneak (although Filcher 4 or 6 is perfectly acceptable).
Less than Filcher 4 is not advisable.

can use her Sleight of Hand bonus instead of her CMB when performing a steal combat maneuver. If the filcher gains bonuses on combat maneuver checks from any feats, spells, magic items, or similar effects, they are added to the Sleight of Hand bonus when using the steal maneuver.
So once we have our 4 (or 5, or 8) levels of Filcher, it is time to abandon ship.


A Cad (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/cad) Fighter gets a +1 bonus at 2nd level (and +1 more every 4 levels).
Slightly more useful is the Lore Warden (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/lore-warden) Fighter, which gets Combat Expertise as a Bonus Feat at level 2, and a +2 CMB bonus at level 3 (and +2 every 4 levels).
>Sadly, despite the potential to get Combat Expertise, and Improved/Greater Steal for FREE with NO pre-reqs, you STILL need 13 INT to take Quick Steal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/lore-warden). :smallmad:

There is also 1 PrC that can help.
Low Templar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/i-m/low-templar), you'll have to waste a feat and a half (Mounted Combat :smallsigh: and Weapon Focus), but at 2nd level you get +2 CMB, and +1d6 Sneak Attack at level 3. It also has Full Bab.


As for the stipulation of "level 9"
I'd say Filcher 5/Lore Warden 3, the 9th level can be either, depending on if you want an extra Rogue Talent, or an extra Combat Feat.

[Cieyrin]

Hmm, nice. I was thinking about how to make this work well after watching The Gamers, especially the Pickpocket scene early one when he steals the bar patron's pants without him being aware of it. :smallsmile:

[Chained Birds]

You missed Grippli (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-grippli), who can take the Agile Tongue (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/agile-tongue-grippli) feat to make their steal checks from 10 feet away.

Will Add it. Didn't know Grippli could do that.


As for the stipulation of "level 9"
I'd say Filcher 5/Lore Warden 3, the 9th level can be either, depending on if you want an extra Rogue Talent, or an extra Combat Feat.

In addition to everything else, your input is greatly appreciated. Some nifty stuff in there.


Hmm, nice. I was thinking about how to make this work well after watching The Gamers, especially the Pickpocket scene early one when he steals the bar patron's pants without him being aware of it. :smallsmile:

Hears hoping Paizo will come up with a Supreme Steal Feat, which allows you to use Steal in place of a Disarm Check and allows you to also steal an enemies armor if you exceed their CMD by 10 or more. :smallsmile:

[Chained Birds]

Let's see,

Made a Halfling Rogue (Filcher) 4 / Fighter (Lore Warden) 3 / Halfling Opportunist 2

Without Items:
Steal Attempt = 20 (Sleight of Hand) + 2 (Imp Steal) + 2 (Grt Steal) + 2 (Lore Warden) + +3 (Adaptable Luck) + 3 (Exploit Maneuver) = 1d20+32 vs Opponent's CMD or FCMD.

3d6 sneak attack + Sap Adept = 3d6+6+2(Strength)+1d4(Sap Attack) = Average 19-20dmg

Also took the Ninja Trick (Pressure Points) as one of the talents to weaken the foes with each attack. Though now I'm wondering whether to take Two-Weapon Fighter or Shadow Strike? Leaning more towards Shadow Strike as Concealment can really hamper a rogue at higher levels.

[hirojinbrodie]

May not be what you are looking for, but unseen seer with spell thief is fantastic. I have been using one as a main villain in a campaign of mine, and the fact you get good spell selection and sneak attack is great. Really keeps the players on their toes when they have no idea when or where he is watching them from. A good handbook can be found here.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240

Really interesting, often overlooked option for caster rogues/spell thief's.

[Cieyrin]

May not be what you are looking for, but unseen seer with spell thief is fantastic. I have been using one as a main villain in a campaign of mine, and the fact you get good spell selection and sneak attack is great. Really keeps the players on their toes when they have no idea when or where he is watching them from. A good handbook can be found here.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240

Really interesting, often overlooked option for caster rogues/spell thief's.

Useful, certainly, though I don't think it's that overlooked, honestly, as Unseen Seer sees quite a bit of use. I'm thinking, though, given the thread tag says [PF] that it was meant to be solved using PF only sources. Also, a Spellthief/Unseen Seer would probably be a great battler but not necessarily a good pickpocket, which is the primary goal of the character.

@Chained Birds: I'd say you'd probably want Shadow Strike, as Two-Weapon Fighting involves a lot more investment to work out well.

[Chained Birds]

@Chained Birds: I'd say you'd probably want Shadow Strike, as Two-Weapon Fighting involves a lot more investment to work out well.

Ya, my friends and I agree with this. Most likely there will be many enemies in lvl +9 games with concealment bonuses, so Shadow Strike is almost a must.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Steal shouldn't be a combat maneuver, they should've just used the sleight of hand skill (why the hell wasn't it merged? I guess spot, listen, AND search were so much weaker THEY warranted combining... /rant), but instead they chose to base it off CMB.

Which means the same attributes are rewarded that all combat maneuvers treasure: Size, strength, BAB, and reach.


So I suggest a bipedal eidolon or Synthesist Summoner, with strength and size jacked up as high as they can go (don't forget to layer on Enlarge Person!) for optimal CMB.

If you want something less conspicuous (even though RAW all that should matter is your steal check), I guess a Maneuver Master Monk (1-6 levels) / Lore Warden Fighter (all other levels) is the best bet.

[Crasical]

Steal shouldn't be a combat maneuver, they should've just used the sleight of hand skill (why the hell wasn't it merged? I guess spot, listen, AND search were so much weaker THEY warranted combining... /rant), but instead they chose to base it off CMB.

Which means the same attributes are rewarded that all combat maneuvers treasure: Size, strength, BAB, and reach.


So I suggest a bipedal eidolon or Synthesist Summoner, with strength and size jacked up as high as they can go (don't forget to layer on Enlarge Person!) for optimal CMB.

If you want something less conspicuous (even though RAW all that should matter is your steal check), I guess a Maneuver Master Monk (1-6 levels) / Lore Warden Fighter (all other levels) is the best bet.

*slowly raises an eyebrow* :smallconfused:

Sleight of hand -is- what you would use if you where trying to subtly pickpocket someone out of combat. Normal combat 'stealing' is more like mugging, using your strength and skill to overwhelm an opponent long enough to take something from them. I don't see the problem with it being a combat maneuver, it's not like they've said you can't use your sleight of hand to take stuff anymore.

Also, while having good BAB and strength are nice, a 9th level Summoner will have a large eidolon, enlarge person'd for Huge. All that gets him is a +2 to his CMB. Size is no longer a hugely overwhelming advantage in the realm of combat maneuvers.

[Hylas]

In no particular order:
Maneuver Master Monk 2
Lore Warden 3
Filcher 4

Maneuver Master will let you steal as part of a full attack action.
Lore Warden gives you lots of fun feats.
Filcher lets you use sleight of hand, which will greatly help a halfling out and skill focus and deft hands are too good to pass up.

Alternatively, if you have a wisdom of 14 or higher, you can go Maneuver Master 5 / Filcher 4 for the same bonus you would get from lore warden as a swift action. If you go beyond 9th level this would also line you up for getting 2 bonus maneuvers per round, which can then be augmented with quick steal to just steal everything from a person in a single round.

For a third option, if you get to level 10 as a rogue then you can grab skill mastery so you can always take a 10 on the steal check. With the amount of bonuses you'd have at that point (+10 from skill focus and deft hands, +10 from ranks, +10 from class bonuses, stats...) it'll be nearly certain to always steal.

[Chained Birds]

In no particular order:
Maneuver Master Monk 2
Lore Warden 3
Filcher 4

Maneuver Master will let you steal as part of a full attack action.
Lore Warden gives you lots of fun feats.
Filcher lets you use sleight of hand, which will greatly help a halfling out and skill focus and deft hands are too good to pass up.

Alternatively, if you have a wisdom of 14 or higher, you can go Maneuver Master 5 / Filcher 4 for the same bonus you would get from lore warden as a swift action. If you go beyond 9th level this would also line you up for getting 2 bonus maneuvers per round, which can then be augmented with quick steal to just steal everything from a person in a single round.

For a third option, if you get to level 10 as a rogue then you can grab skill mastery so you can always take a 10 on the steal check. With the amount of bonuses you'd have at that point (+10 from skill focus and deft hands, +10 from ranks, +10 from class bonuses, stats...) it'll be nearly certain to always steal.

Benn meaning to post Monk (Maneuver Master) on the list. Thanks for reminding me.