"tiers" [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Hiro Protagonest

2012-07-26, 09:41 PM

Eyeball 'em.

Seriously, about half of those are easy to place, even without much experience. I count four full casters, although one of them has even less versatility than the sorcerer, and one variant for a full caster that doesn't reduce spellcasting. I think Psychic Warrior was included in the tier system anyway. If you're worried about them being underpowered/overpowered, two things.
A) High-tier classes are easy to tone down. The exception to this is ToB. Which isn't very high-tier anyway, but can still be overpowered in some cases.
B) Low tier classes can be brought up to about tier 4 with great skill. This really only works for core classes, though, things like the hexblade and CW samurai have only indirect splat support, and while Schneeky's samurai was good, anything immune to mind-affecting or fear makes it near-useless, while a zhentarim fighter at least still has those bonus feats for tripping or charging.

Tier 3-4 builds can play together easily. Notice I said builds, not characters. A straight wizard can be tier 3. Alternatively, even a higher-tier version can play well. GOD wizards play support and lockdown so that the DPS guys can make things bleed. Mailmen (with slightly less Metamagic abuse) play DPS to lockdown fighters and crusaders. At higher levels, Astral Projection means the wizard is nigh-immune to death in combat, but in practice, it just means that the party can save the Res money. As for clerics, DMM: Persisted Mass Lesser Vigor, and DMM: Persisted Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (or just Haste with the correct Domain). That is all.

gorfnab

2012-07-26, 09:52 PM

Knaight

2012-07-26, 09:53 PM

What difference does it make? You don't need the Tier System's permission for anything.
I don't see why a tool for better understanding the workings of a system would help with the working of the system.

Kuulvheysoon

2012-07-26, 09:56 PM

AmberVael

2012-07-26, 10:01 PM

Tier 1

Martial Wizard: The martial wizard still gets all its spells. Changing the feats given to it is really irrelevant.
Druidic Avenger: The loss of your animal companion is sad. That said, it is still a prepared caster with level 9 spells and wild shape. I think it's a downgrade, but Rage and Wild Shape is a fun combo.
Champion Cleric: Turn undead is way better than smite and aura of courage. But losing it is but a minor scratch in the hide of the Clericzilla. Her fiery level nine spell breath will sear your bones as her buffed mace bludgeons you to death.

Tier 2

Hunter Druid: The loss of wild shape is even more sad than loss of animal companion, and the benefits are worse too. Still... 9th level spells, and animal companion. It may really be tier 1, but it's definitely lessened by loss of wild shape, and I want to make that clear. So just call this being overdramatic.
Spirit Shaman: If it is indeed in tier 2 (some would say tier 1, I'm very tempted to call it that myself), it is very high tier 2. Make no mistake, Spirit Shaman is a beast of a class- it has one of the coolest spellcasting systems, pairing the benefits of spontaneous casting and prepared casting. However, it has two casting stats, and doesn't quite have the abilities of the druid to help boost its power
Generic Spellcaster: It has limited spells known and per day, but gets good level 9 spells from more lists, and good bonus feats. It's not enough to boost it to tier 1, but it is a strong tier 2.
Wu Jen: Like Madara said- it just doesn't have the same awesome list to draw from, which hurts it a bit.
Wilder: Often considered low tier 2, possibly 3. It gains more solid footing if the Educated Wilder variant is allowed.
Battle Sorcerer: It takes a big hit from regular sorcerer, but it still gets 9th level spells, even if it gets less of them. I'd say it's about on the same level as Wilder.
Shadowcaster: This is the class I know least about, so I'm largely relying on searches to give me an accurate tier. Fax Celestis says it is tier 2, I've seen some interesting and powerful stuff from it, so I'm inclined to agree, but take with a grain of salt.

Tier 3

Psychic Warrior: Honestly, I kinda consider Psychic Warrior to be the iconic tier 3. It gets some versatile stuff, but nothing vastly overpowering, and it is undeniably effective in its domain. It's just a very nice class.
Shugenja: I don't know much about this class myself, but while it gets 9th level casting, my understanding is that it has a situation like Wu Jen, but with an inferior and even more limited spell list. So no support + meh spell list + spontaneous casting means it is probably one of the weaker full casters.
Fey Bard: I think the loss of its iconic ability really hurts, and so it is probably weakened... but animal companion is not to be underestimated, and they still have all their decent skills and spells.

Tier 4

Martial Rogue: Changing sneak attack for feats is interesting, but I don't think it is power changing.
Dragon Shaman: Dragonfire Adept really overshadows the poor Shaman. The breath weapon is fun, and auras are interesting, but the abilities of Dragon Shaman are spread out without a great deal of synergy or anything that really jumps out. It's kinda low tier 4 if you ask me.

Tier 5

Generic Warrior: It's a definite gain over the base Fighter, but there is only so much you can do with feats without descending into cheddar. However, it is worth noting that the effective power of this class will drastically alter depending on what feats it has chosen.
Generic Expert: You've got skills and feats. That's not very interesting. You can't even really rebuild the Rogue with this so... definite loss.
Thug: Meh. Not enough change to merit more than a glance.
Barbarian/Hunter: Rage is probably one of the coolest and best abilities of the Barbarian. Favored enemy and ranged combat style... I don't think that really makes up for it at all. Maybe it doesn't really drop it down a tier, but it's certainly a blow. Note that I'm really not fond of Favored Enemy though, so this judgment may be that bleeding through.
Foe Hunter Paladin: If anything, paladin just got worse. Turn undead is useful. Favored enemy... not quite as much.

I didn't include the OA classes, but hopefully this is still okay.
I want to note that I churned this out in like half an hour, so it is possible I made some oversights or mistakes, and I'm pretty sure some of these teeter between tiers, so it's quite possible people will disagree. I tried to make notes where things were stronger or weaker than average, and where I was uncertain.
Even if there are errors though, I think this should give a decent idea of what you're looking at.

Edit: I think I typically erred on the lower side of estimated power level, so take that into consideration when you look at this.

eggs

2012-07-26, 10:14 PM

The OA Shaman plays like the 2s. It has strong class abilities and prepared spellcasting from an overall good list, but even with a bit of splat support from SpC and cool tricks like DMM, its list has some weird holes. (Magic Fang is the most obnoxious)

I'd put Sohei in with the 5s. It has some good class features, but it doesn't have a very good framework for its role and its spell list is awful. It's comparable to the Paladin and Ranger, before factoring in the splatbook support that can make the Paladin and Ranger good.

Togath

2012-07-26, 10:32 PM

Also, for the OA samurai I would probably say it's about the same as a fighter, though it's main clas feature can be picked up with a single level(the reduced cost enchants one, which scales with total level as far as I can tell)

Doug Lampert

2012-07-26, 10:34 PM

Tier 1Tier 2
[list]
Hunter Druid: The loss of wild shape is even more sad than loss of animal companion, and the benefits are worse too. Still... 9th level spells, and animal companion. It may really be tier 1, but it's definitely lessened by loss of wild shape, and I want to make that clear. So just call this being overdramatic.

You're being overly dramatic. The Druid is Tier One because of Druid Spellcasting. You can lose Wildshape, Animal Companion, AND the d8 HD and medium BAB and it's STILL tier 1. Weak tier one, but tier one.

Animal companion and wildshape are important only in that they make it so that a druid that never casts spells STILL largely obsoletes the fighter at low to mid op which pretty well removes any doubt that the designers had no clue whatsoever about ballance.

But the power of a Druid played as a tier 1 caster is not dependent on having a pet fighter or on the ability to turn into a fighter and still cast spells. It's based on his spell list which is quite good actually.

DougL

Hiro Protagonest

2012-07-26, 10:37 PM

You're being overly dramatic. The Druid is Tier One because of Druid Spellcasting. You can lose Wildshape, Animal Companion, AND the d8 HD and medium BAB and it's STILL tier 1. Weak tier one, but tier one.

Animal companion and wildshape are important only in that they make it so that a druid that never casts spells STILL largely obsoletes the fighter at low to mid op which pretty well removes any doubt that the designers had no clue whatsoever about ballance.

But the power of a Druid played as a tier 1 caster is not dependent on having a pet fighter or on the ability to turn into a fighter and still cast spells. It's based on his spell list which is quite good actually.

DougL

Ehh, druid casting might be tier 2. But still, point stands. If it has Wild Shape, it's tier 1 for sure. If it doesn't, it's still on the high end.

AmberVael

2012-07-26, 10:42 PM

eggs

2012-07-26, 10:45 PM

The Druid spell list is seriously lacking for open-ended spell effects like Planar/Spirit Ally/Binding, Polymorph, Gate, Limited Wish/Wish, Miracle, Simulacrum, as well as action economy manipulators and the ability to play during other characters' turns.

It's a good spell list, it gets some good support and it's far from lacking in terms of brute force, but I don't think the Druid would be out of place with the Wu Jen, Shaman or Psychic Reforming Psion.

EDIT:
Even without Wild Shape, the Druid still has shapeshifting spells, so if you would have clumped it with the Wizard/Cleric/Archivist/Artificer anyway, it probably shouldn't change. But I hesitate to do that in the first place: I've never seen a Druid able to just ignore obstacles the way the Wiz/Clr/Arch/Art do.

MrRigger

2012-07-26, 10:57 PM

Actually, I'd put the Druid spell list above the Cleric spell list, assuming no access to Cleric domains. Toss in a few good domains (or lots of good domains, as they aren't particularly hard to get access to via Contemplative or even worse, Sovereign Speaker), and the Cleric tops it, especially with easy Persisting via DMM, but the Druid spell list is definitely still Tier 1. You can blast (Creeping Cold, Call Lightning), you can travel (Tree Stride), you can buff (Owl's Insight, Bite of X), you can info-search (Speak with Plants/Animals), you can summon (Oh good gravy can you summon, Summon Nature's Ally line spontaneously, with a number of options for making them better (Greenbound, Ashbound, even the basics like Augment Summoning)). And that's all off the top of my head, and I don't even play druids. Druids have a Tier 1 spell list, even without Animal Companions or Wild Shape to make them the absurd beasts we know they are.

MrRigger

qcbtnsrm

2012-07-26, 11:05 PM

Ehh, druid casting might be tier 2. But still, point stands. If it has Wild Shape, it's tier 1 for sure. If it doesn't, it's still on the high end.

I think you have missed the description of the difference between Tier 1 and Tier 2. Both can break a game. The difference is how many different ways they break the game. In 3.5 sorcerers will have three 9th level spells known. And a total of nine between 7th and 9th. Yeah, with good spell selection they can be stupidly good. But there are only nine that a DM has to worry about destroying his adventure. That can be planned for, at least to some degree. A Druid will have dozens of similar spells, many of highly varying effects. And some like Shapechange of course add hundreds of other Supernatural effects. A sorcerer may not choose that spell... all druids have it automatically.

No the druid list isn't as powerful or versatile a list as the wizard list. But the fact that the druid has a good list, and that all of them are automatically known places it firmly in Tier 1. Everything else, like Wild Shape and the Animal Companion, are just gravy. It would take a tiny and really inferior list to bring them down to Tier 2.

Answerer

2012-07-26, 11:17 PM

Tier 2
[...]
Wu Jen: Like Madara said- it just doesn't have the same awesome list to draw from, which hurts it a bit.

Ehh, druid casting might be tier 2.
My understanding is that both of these suggestions are (nigh) impossible.

Tier 1 is more-or-less defined as "has access to everything Tier 2 does, and can change what it does regularly."

As prepared casters, Hunter Druids and Wu Jen both can change their spells every day. That qualifies them for the versatility needed for Tier 1.

If their spell list isn't good enough, then they aren't Tier 2, either – Tier 2 should have access to that same power, just get locked into it.

The only way a prepared caster can be Tier 2 is if their list literally only has exactly one load-out of spells that is always the best choice. Which just isn't likely to ever happen.

Moreover, far from having a weak spell list, the Druid has an excellent spell list. It's arguably better than the Cleric spell list (though the possibilities that Domains bring push the Cleric ahead), particularly in Core.

Psyren

2012-07-26, 11:25 PM

Druid spell list is indeed great, particularly at low levels - whereas Clerics are all but forced to gish/heal/summon early on, Druids get to engage in battlefield control and blasting earlier than they can. So even without the free Fighter and becoming a Fighter while still being able to cast they deserve T1 designation.

GenghisDon

2012-07-26, 11:39 PM

What difference does it make? You don't need the Tier System's permission for anything.

No kidding, I am just curious.

Reading over the rationals for the other classes, I can see how it suits my game, and how it doesn't, because I've tweaked or changed the rules to suit myself. Even more telling, optimisation & PRC's are at a minimum at my table. The "tiers" are thus much flattened for me/us. Still, I find it useful to know other's thoughts, experiences & takes on the game. Sometimes it will spark a useful idea for my games.

GenghisDon

2012-07-26, 11:44 PM

Many GMs find it a quick and easy way to make a balanced party. Obviously, this person want to know what tier these classes are in so they can make an informed descision on what should be in their game.

I don't know many of them, but varients rarely move a class into a whole 'nother tier.

Wu Jen is a prepared caster, but still falls into T2. It has a bit of power, but it doesn't have enough support to match a T1 character.

I figured most of UA varients made little difference, although some would nock a class DOWN (druidic avenger is probably tier 2 at best IMHO) or occassionaly uplift one (wildshape ranger for example).

Thanks for the reply:smallsmile:

Thanks to you all, actually, i'll not be boorish & multi-post more. I would say the variant druids (including spirit shaman) would only be a tier 2, but eh, if you have very precise rules for it, so be it. Not that the other druid types are bad characters...but they are all LESS potent than the PH druid. I'd expect that to be a GOOD thing for many a game.

I played a Wu Jen for a while. Not much optimisation at all, from L7-16. I don't play often at all, but it was too easy, & the character utterly dominated, then I started played buff/protect the party, much as I've heard "nice" players are supposed to do since coming here. I guess I'm a nice guy. It was kinda boring & sad, actually. Yes, it's weaker than the wizard, however. 1 or 2, I dunno. I'd guess 2, but see above regarding druid-variants.

thanks especialy for the psi info, we never used them much in 3.5. I have a hard time believing the wilder rating so high, however. Even with a couple mitigating feats from another psi book, they seem to be unplayable at high levels. Is it assumed they are some psi PRC or 3?

Shadow caster, like the wilder, I've never seen in play. They don't look too popular, and have various opinions on their ability. I'll read the guide, thanks:smallsmile:

eggs

2012-07-26, 11:58 PM

And some like Shapechange of course add hundreds of other Supernatural effects. A sorcerer may not choose that spell... all druids have it automatically.
This is the reason I'm a bit hesitant to clump the Druid list up with the others.

The Druid has Shapechange at levels 17+ for hundreds of supernatural effects, but the other T1s have even more versatile abilities available even earlier.

One big super-versatile power like Shapechange isn't an automatic entry to T1/2. If it were, the Truenamer and Healer with their Gates, the Dread Necro with its Planar Binding and the Divine Mind with its Metamorphic Transfer would be sitting at the big kids' table.

The Druid is awesome. It has a good spell list that can handle most situations. The reason I hesitate to clump it with the Archivist/Artificer/Cleric/Wizard is that they also have those kinds of tools, but they also have things like Gate and Planar Binding. So where a level 9 Druid might be able to steamroll a dungeon to get whatever's at the end, the Artificer can bind some wildly level-inappropriate monster to steamroll that dungeon while the Artificer takes the game in an entirely different direction.

Psyren

2012-07-27, 12:06 AM

No kidding, I am just curious.

Reading over the rationals for the other classes, I can see how it suits my game, and how it doesn't, because I've tweaked or changed the rules to suit myself. Even more telling, optimisation & PRC's are at a minimum at my table. The "tiers" are thus much flattened for me/us. Still, I find it useful to know other's thoughts, experiences & takes on the game. Sometimes it will spark a useful idea for my games.

Tiers represent potential power, not actual. That you can play a very unoptimized wizard doesn't mean wizards stop being T1 - it just means that particular wizard can play in the same game as lower-tier classes, without rendering their efforts meaningless.

GenghisDon

2012-07-27, 12:30 AM

I dunno, as I said, I don't play often (I DM 99% of the time), but it's hard not to dominate with a wizard or even faux-wizard. I get what you are all saying however. The distinction between Tiers 1 & 2 won't matter a wit to my games.

On a class's potential...changing rules messes with that a bit. I don't do so enough to change them enormously, but lots of the lowest tier classes are nowhere near as bad in my games, and the higher ones not quite as good. Potentially.

Great extensive breakdown Vael, thanks:smallsmile:

Eggs: shouldn't the OA shaman be tier 1 acording to the outline's the other's have given? just on the prepared spells list? I'd say T2 myself also, but high T2. I guess it depends how you update them.

Agreed on the Sohei; some good ideas mixed with bad there.

eggs

2012-07-27, 01:17 AM

On the Shaman, it's got an awesome spell list with very little splatbook support. In functional terms, that's all that really matters.

Tier-wise, it falls into an uncomfortable crease in the Tier system regarding splatbook support. T2 is defined as doing some of the things T1 does as well as T1 does them, but with fewer options in one build. So even though the Shaman starts with about as many nasty tricks as the Cleric, it lacks the Clerics hundreds of pages of splatbook support.

So like Answerer said about the Wu Jen, there's a case to be made for the Shaman to be T1: it has a bunch of strong powers that can be swapped out every day (especially in a group that's not stingy with its Spell Compendium support) and certainly has more options on a day-by-day basis than the Favored Soul or Sorcerer.

But it does clearly lack compared to the T1 Cleric. It doesn't have as many options (it has no way of picking up the whole Planar Binding line, Haunt Shift, etc). The Substitute Domain spell is probably the biggest point of an unfavorable comparison: while the Shaman picks three domains that it sticks to rigidly, the Cleric is able to swap between all those allowed by its deity (or deities), giving a scenario similar to the Wizard v. Sorcerer (though considerably less drastic).

Conventionally, I've seen classes in its situation like the Death Master and Wu Jen thrown into T2, but TBH, I'd probably throw it wherever the Druid goes (assuming it doesn't choose terrible domains or get stiffed on Spell Compendium spell additions).

AmberVael

2012-07-27, 08:12 AM

Taking a closer look at Wu Jen's spell list, I think I'm far more inclined to call it Tier 1 on second thought and closer review. It seems to have a good number of the best Core spells, and honestly that's all you really need... it would be nice to have access to stuff in the Spell Compendium, but it's not necessary.

At level 20 it can sling around Time Stop, Gate, Shapechange, and Astral Projection, for example. It has some sad lacks, but ultimately I think it can still be the teleporting, rope tricking, scry and die paranoid caster we all know.

Honestly, I'd be tempted to make a Sub-Tier 1 and just throw Wu Jen, Spirit Shaman, and Hunter Druid there. I nearly did that the first time around. There's a notable power gap there, but I don't think that it really shunts them down a tier- but it feels disingenuous to just place them right up there with the Wizard, Cleric, and Druid.

I figured most of UA varients made little difference, although some would nock a class DOWN (druidic avenger is probably tier 2 at best IMHO)
Animal companion is a great help and all, but the Druid is still a day to day customizable laser shooting raging bear that can summon whirlwinds. :smalltongue:

Thanks especially for the psi info, we never used them much in 3.5. I have a hard time believing the wilder rating so high, however. Even with a couple mitigating feats from another psi book, they seem to be unplayable at high levels. Is it assumed they are some psi PRC or 3?

Wilder is a hard one to place. I put it in Tier 2 with great reluctance, and I'd like to note that I consider it to be a very poorly designed class. If it is played, I consider the Educated Wilder variant to be a must- but mostly I'll just highly encourage Psion instead (if you want to be like a Wilder, pick up Overchannel). The terribly miniscule list of powers known it has just makes it a really dull class.

Still, the powers it gets access to are not to be underestimated. Appropriate use of Expanded Knowledge (that is, lots of it) can highly boost their versatility and power as well. If it's tier 3, it's a highly unusual tier 3.

Shadow caster, like the wilder, I've never seen in play. They don't look too popular, and have various opinions on their ability. I'll read the guide, thanks:smallsmile:
The Shadowcaster's main drawbacks are the inability to prepare the same "spell" multiple times per day, and the need to pick them from specific groups.

However, they get some very potent powers- take a look at Flicker, or Shadow Time (why Time Stop needed an upgrade, I have no idea, but the Shadowcaster is not complaining).

Psyren

2012-07-27, 09:09 AM

Wilders are T3 at a minimum. They have very few powers known, but psionics is great at "one-hit wonders" - i.e. it scales extremely well. While most first-level spells quickly lose relevance against high-CR opponents, several first-level powers stay useful all the way throughout one's career.

Wilders are capable of attacking all three saves (or none at all) effectively at most levels; they are capable of utility, mobility, control and defense, all without taking a single Expanded Knowledge. Adding EK makes them stronger but is not required to make them playable.

I put them at T3 mostly because they're weaker than psions, so it doesn't feel right to put them on quite the same level. In addition, breaking the game is hard for them without EK, which doesn't quite feel fair as you're reaching outside the confines of the class, which the tier system doesn't really account for.

A sample XPH-only T3 Wilder repertoire with no EKs:

1) Control Flames/Entangling Ectoplasm
1) Deceleration/Crystal Shard/Energy Ray
2) Ego Whip
3) Dispel Psionics
4) Psychic Reformation
5) Ectoplasmic Shambler
6) Psionic Overland Flight
7) Personal Mind Blank
8) Bend Reality
9) Reality Revision
9) Any

This Wilder can handle almost any encounter, relying on magic items only for defense (or not relying on them at all, though this is obviously harder.) Most powers are augmentable allowing it to make good use of Wild Surge. Deceleration and Entangling Ectoplasm stack to let you play keep-away with most creatures, especially larger ones that tend to have awful reflex saves. The "Wishes" allow you to pull out a unique one-off effect (including a discipline power) as needed. As items are acquired to fill gaps (e.g. flight and teleportation), redundant powers can be Reformed away for more useful choices.

Answerer

2012-07-27, 09:50 AM

Shadow caster, like the wilder, I've never seen in play. They don't look too popular, and have various opinions on their ability. I'll read the guide, thanks:smallsmile:
Having played one recently, I can tell you that it is... extremely limited.

They get relatively few mysteries known, which almost doesn't matter because there are very few mysteries to know – and there's a fair few duds. Moreover, their mysteries per day are very limited until mid to high levels; a low level Shadowcaster spends more time shooting a crossbow than casting anything. They get a few neat unique effects, and a few of the common high-power spells, but ultimately, they don't really add up to much. They're rather underwhelming. Very decidedly Tier 4 – they can be good at one thing, but they can't get much versatility.

The things they can be half-decent at are counterspelling (though others can do it better) and gishing (and again, others can do that better too).

sonofzeal

2012-07-27, 10:09 AM

Taking a closer look at Wu Jen's spell list, I think I'm far more inclined to call it Tier 1 on second thought and closer review. It seems to have a good number of the best Core spells, and honestly that's all you really need... it would be nice to have access to stuff in the Spell Compendium, but it's not necessary.
I'm playing one right now, and good lord they're underwhelming. This is what I imagine WotC's conception of a Wizard is. In theory he's got a nice well-rounded spell list, but in practice... whoof. Without access to a Wizard's specialization, his spells-per-day just stink. Without swift or immediate action spells, his action economy is anemic. And without the massive bloated monster that is the Sor/Wiz list, he simply can't overcome the two previous limitations in any meaningful way.

I ended up prepping a fairly diverse set of utility (Passwall, Dimension Door, Creeping Darkness, Scrying), with some debuff (Hold Monster) and some buff (Metal Skin, Greater Invisibility) and some direct damage (Earthbolt)... but really, he's not bringing much to the fight from his Wu Jen levels. I've got a homebrew PrC on there that gives him other things to do with standard actions, but otherwise he wouldn't have much.

Let's put it this way - the strength of a Wizard is in being able to prepare for every contingency and always having the right tool for the job at hand. A Wu-Jen's toolbox is a tenth the size, but it still has some good tools in there... however, they're strangled on spells-per-day. The need to cover a variety of bases means that no particular base gets any depth whatsoever, meaning you generally have one shot at it and that's that. And Wu-Jen spells generally aren't encounter-enders.

Last fight was against a Greater Shadesteel Golem (my DM's evil). Hold Monster wouldn't work, Creeping Darkness is straight out, Earthbolt doesn't work against flying things, there's no tactical advantage from Dimension Door since we had no avenue of retreat... nope, I got nadda unless there's a favourable interpretation of Silent Image vs mindless constructs, but I'd hardly count on that. Even the UMD Rogue had more to offer there with scrolls of Know Greatest Foe to narrow down its location, True Strike to bypass that 50% concealment, and Golem Strike to help the Clericzilla beat it down. The Wu Jen had True Strike too, but nothing in particular to do with that attack.

He still profits from quadratic returns, but at lvl 10 I think he's easily the least effective member of the party.

All of which is to say that I firmly believe Wu Jen is T2, and low T2 at that. They definitely meet the qualifications for T2 status, but I'm finding spells per day is a pretty harsh limit on classes that have to prep and that don't have an extremely robust spell list or things they can do without spells. Sorcs get more spells, Wizards get more if they specialize, Clerics get more because of domains. The only one that lines up is Druids, who get the best chassis of any core full-caster on top of Wild Shape, Animal Companion, and the second best spell list in the game. Wu Jen have the worst chassis of any full-caster, nothing remotely close to the awesomeness of Druid class features, a worse spell mechanic (prepping of whole list >> spellbook), and a spell list that might qualify for a distant third if we're feeling generous.

Yes, a lvl 20 Wu Jen is still a force that can shatter kingdoms. But even good T3s can do that. And they're so thoroughly outclassed by any actual T1s that I seriously hesitate to put them anywhere near that category.

Man on Fire

2012-07-27, 10:10 AM

Dragonfire Adept really overshadows the poor Shaman.

And what Tier is he?

Man on Fire

2012-07-27, 10:13 AM

Not seeing my own post again.

Godskook

2012-07-27, 10:20 AM

I put them at T3 mostly because they're weaker than psions, so it doesn't feel right to put them on quite the same level. In addition, breaking the game is hard for them without EK, which doesn't quite feel fair as you're reaching outside the confines of the class, which the tier system doesn't really account for.

See, I disagree with this, as EK is available within the core psionics book, making it both available and intended for use by psionic characters. Taking that away from Wilders, is imho, a disservice to how the class was meant to be played. Plus, the way I read the tier lists, "splat support" is a common consideration for the strength of classes, even going so far as to list Wildshape Ranger explicitly and separately from the non-variant version.

Granted, EK for *A* power that's particularly OP might be an issue, but I think psionics is robust enough to avoid that issue.

On top of this, powers make for better damage-based 'wands' than equivalent spells do, giving the wilder more endurance.

sonofzeal

2012-07-27, 10:23 AM

And what Tier is he?
DFA is T3/T4 depending on who you ask. I'm playing one of those as well, and the experience has been roughly T3-ish. Not a whole lotta depth in that there toolbox, but it works. Slow Breath absolutely nukes a lot of encounters, and being able to chuck out reliable damage in a large area every round is surprisingly useful. I can drop some serious pain on groups, or ping tough targets with hard-to-resist stuff like Sonic attacks, and with high AC/saves/hp and flight I might be the most durable member of the party. It's good times.

Spirit Shaman... mmm, my experience is limited. Their mechanic is potentially one of the best in the game, their spell list is (imo) the second best, and if they lack anything else of note, well, it's hardly necessary at that point. I don't see how you could even compare against a DFA though, since they cover such vastly different capabilities. At the end of the day the Spirit Shaman is still a full-caster off an excellent list. Despite my previous rant against Wu-Jen, that counts for a lot... and since Spirit Shamans have an (imo) better list, better spellcasting mechanic, better chassis, and better class features, I think that more than makes up for the split stat casting.

I trust Spirit Shamans to be low/mid T1. High-T2 at the absolute worst.

AmberVael

2012-07-27, 10:44 AM

The quote there is talking about the Dragon Shaman, not Spirit Shaman.

Dragonfire Adept definitely does not overshadow Spirit Shaman.

GenghisDon

2012-07-27, 11:29 AM

JaronK's Tier list for classes (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=658)
Base Class Reference & Tier Information (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11714)
Why each class is in it's tier (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5256)

One of these posts has them all (although one can always argue them!)

On the Shaman, it's got an awesome spell list with very little splatbook support. In functional terms, that's all that really matters.

Tier-wise, it falls into an uncomfortable crease in the Tier system regarding splatbook support. T2 is defined as doing some of the things T1 does as well as T1 does them, but with fewer options in one build. So even though the Shaman starts with about as many nasty tricks as the Cleric, it lacks the Clerics hundreds of pages of splatbook support.

So like Answerer said about the Wu Jen, there's a case to be made for the Shaman to be T1: it has a bunch of strong powers that can be swapped out every day (especially in a group that's not stingy with its Spell Compendium support) and certainly has more options on a day-by-day basis than the Favored Soul or Sorcerer.

But it does clearly lack compared to the T1 Cleric. It doesn't have as many options (it has no way of picking up the whole Planar Binding line, Haunt Shift, etc). The Substitute Domain spell is probably the biggest point of an unfavorable comparison: while the Shaman picks three domains that it sticks to rigidly, the Cleric is able to swap between all those allowed by its deity (or deities), giving a scenario similar to the Wizard v. Sorcerer (though considerably less drastic).

Conventionally, I've seen classes in its situation like the Death Master and Wu Jen thrown into T2, but TBH, I'd probably throw it wherever the Druid goes (assuming it doesn't choose terrible domains or get stiffed on Spell Compendium spell additions).

OA Shaman looks absolutely T1 to me; but then as DM I know that if I allow extras for the base classes like cleric, druid, wiz/sorc & bard, I'd add a ton to it as well. If it gets nothing, or is hit with a nerf bat, sure, T2. If not, it's right up there in T1 with a back seat to none/few.

Psyren

2012-07-27, 12:12 PM

See, I disagree with this, as EK is available within the core psionics book, making it both available and intended for use by psionic characters. Taking that away from Wilders, is imho, a disservice to how the class was meant to be played. Plus, the way I read the tier lists, "splat support" is a common consideration for the strength of classes, even going so far as to list Wildshape Ranger explicitly and separately from the non-variant version.

Granted, EK for *A* power that's particularly OP might be an issue, but I think psionics is robust enough to avoid that issue.

On top of this, powers make for better damage-based 'wands' than equivalent spells do, giving the wilder more endurance.

You misunderstand me - I fully acknowledge that EK is a viable choice for Wilders. But the Tier system wasn't designed around classes being able to circumvent their own limitations like that. It ranks them as presented, without external help.

eggs

2012-07-27, 12:42 PM

If you haven't played a Spirit Shaman, be careful not to overvalue their casting mechanic. They get a lot of spells per day, and they get them quickly, but the Unique-Spells-Per-Day are horribly tactically limiting.

I've said that I'm not a big fan of the Druid spell list, so I won't push that point, but when only picking a handful of spells at each level, the "I can do everything, and do it well" array that characterizes most of the T1s is probably not going to happen.

Answerer

2012-07-27, 02:01 PM

All of which is to say that I firmly believe Wu Jen is T2, and low T2 at that. They definitely meet the qualifications for T2 status, but I'm finding spells per day is a pretty harsh limit on classes that have to prep and that don't have an extremely robust spell list or things they can do without spells.
[...]
Yes, a lvl 20 Wu Jen is still a force that can shatter kingdoms. But even good T3s can do that. And they're so thoroughly outclassed by any actual T1s that I seriously hesitate to put them anywhere near that category.
That being the case, I'm curious how you'd respond to what I had to say about the suggestion of Tier 2 Wu Jen earlier:

Tier 2
[...]
Wu Jen: Like Madara said- it just doesn't have the same awesome list to draw from, which hurts it a bit.
My understanding is that both of these suggestions are (nigh) impossible.

Tier 1 is more-or-less defined as "has access to everything Tier 2 does, and can change what it does regularly."

As prepared casters, Hunter Druids and Wu Jen both can change their spells every day. That qualifies them for the versatility needed for Tier 1.

If their spell list isn't good enough, then they aren't Tier 2, either – Tier 2 should have access to that same power, just get locked into it.

The only way a prepared caster can be Tier 2 is if their list literally only has exactly one load-out of spells that is always the best choice. Which just isn't likely to ever happen.

Is my definition wrong, or is their list so limited that the ability to change it is meaningless, or..? I have not personally played a Wu Jen.

Hiro Protagonest

2012-07-27, 02:16 PM

I figured most of UA varients made little difference, although some would nock a class DOWN (druidic avenger is probably tier 2 at best IMHO)

Er... what?

You lose animal companion. That's it. You're still a dire bear throwing pokeballs and healing around.

Godskook

2012-07-27, 02:40 PM

You misunderstand me - I fully acknowledge that EK is a viable choice for Wilders. But the Tier system wasn't designed around classes being able to circumvent their own limitations like that. It ranks them as presented, without external help.

I didn't misunderstand you, I deliberately argued against you. I completely disagree on both how closely related EK is to Wilder and how the tier system views options that are inherently intended to be part of one's kit.

To me, saying "EK doesn't count for establishing Wilder's tier" is like saying "Weapons don't count for establishing Fighter's tier" or "Spell components don't count for establishing Wizard's tier".

GenghisDon

2012-07-27, 02:50 PM

You misunderstand me - I fully acknowledge that EK is a viable choice for Wilders. But the Tier system wasn't designed around classes being able to circumvent their own limitations like that. It ranks them as presented, without external help.

I'm getting confused on the whole tier definition thing now...isn't HALF the reasoning based on external help? splats, new books that grant support/options/flat out power boosts & moar PRC "goodness"?

Wu Jen & OA Shaman ought pick up at least half the appropriate spell lists adds from the spell comp, but since that's a DM fiat, it isn't considered, correct?

On the various shamans, sorry all. Dragon Shaman (PH2 aura/power class), Spirit Shaman (Spont Druid with diff flavour/crunch), and OA Shaman (Cleric with some druid spell adds mix with splash of monk) are the ones I was asking about.

Dragonfire Adept (or whatever) & Dragon magic made my brain turn off, blek! Sorry if you like it, but tastes vary & most very late 3.5 stuff is completely worthless IMHO (& I won't use/allow it, with some few exceptions). Dragon Shaman does nothing for me really, but being PH2, a book I do like overall, I figured I'd ask.

My players actually aren't especially adventurous when it comes to class, prefering the classics or characters that actually have an archetype in fantasy/myth. When they play stuff like a spirit shaman, it's typically because I made them such a character for a short campaign.

Based on (admitedly fairly little) playtesting the mid level spirit shaman looked fun & useful, the mid/high level OA shaman the same & powerful, the very high/low epic warlock weak/kinda sad, but the low/mid level warlock was fun, the scout a good rogue/ranger type replacement (and quite effective on a warlock/scout gestalt), the swashbucker a light combatant 3 level dip or even a reasonable light fighter replacement at VHL/low epic (for what that's worth, but the constant str/con damage was valuable at our table, under our HR I guess), mid level psi-warrior interesting to play, the UA variants occassionaly interesting, but typically weaker than the origonals, ect.

Support is indeed key, even "whimpy" classes can be made much more playable with feats the late books brought (& we never used yet). I'm completely unafraid of adding or modifying feats, or class abilties, ect, so "fixing" or making better what are called low tier classes here is SOP for me/us, as is applying the nerfbat to the tier 1-2 classes.

Back to the wilder, expanded knowledge (as often as possible, & the later added surge/enervation mitigation feats) appear to be MANDATORY (ie indicate a bad design), although I'm well aware that psi powers are far better than spells for long term play. Is the "over charging" factor REALLY worth all they loose to the psion (or even remotely close)? And am I missing something on the basic design? Doesn't their "wild surge" ability eventualy completely self-defeating? 30% "psychic enervation" at L19 is pretty aweful, but apparantly an epic level wilder would eventualy autiomaticly fail at their class feature acoording to their epic progress (100% fail at L75 for +20 surge, and long, long ago ceased to have any value). The class design literally makes itself (eventually) completely worthless? I know most here would never imagine a character ever being class X Level 25+, but they are (supposedly) designed to be able to be played thus, no? I guess some "epic" feat that reduced the enervation & to 4%/extra CL & was stackable with itself (minimum chance 1%/extra CL) or a flat -5% chance per feat, would "help", by again eating any feat the class can muster. Ugh.

anyway, thanks for all the replies & thoughts!

Psyren

2012-07-27, 03:02 PM

To me, saying "EK doesn't count for establishing Wilder's tier" is like saying "Weapons don't count for establishing Fighter's tier" or "Spell components don't count for establishing Wizard's tier".

Er... they don't? :smallconfused:

Tiers are independent of gear. Wizards are T1 whether they have expensive components or not. Fighters are T5 whether they have vorpal scimitars or not. Not sure what you're saying exactly.

I'm getting confused on the whole tier definition thing now...isn't HALF the reasoning based on external help? splats, new books that grant support/options/flat out power boosts & moar PRC "goodness"?

No, Wizards are T1 in Core-Only every bit as much as they are with all splats allowed. Same for Clerics and Druids.

To use a better example, Rangers and Paladins are T4 and 5 respectively even with PHB2 and Complete Champion allowed.

Wu Jen & OA Shaman ought pick up at least half the appropriate spell lists adds from the spell comp, but since that's a DM fiat, it isn't considered, correct?

Yes, exactly.

GenghisDon

2012-07-27, 03:12 PM

So both would/will be "Tier" 1 in my games. Got ya.

Godskook

2012-07-27, 03:13 PM

Er... they don't? :smallconfused:

Tiers are independent of gear. Wizards are T1 whether they have expensive components or not. Fighters are T5 whether they have vorpal scimitars or not. Not sure what you're saying exactly.

So are you counting Polymorph, Web and Grease in your evaluation of Wizard's tier? Cause all 3 have material components, and without having the components, you're not casting those spells.

And don't say "Eschew Materials", cause that's a feat, and apparently, you're not counting feats.

And are all your fighters unarmed? Or are you using a glaive-based fighter who doesn't ever own a glaive?

Hiro Protagonest

2012-07-27, 03:14 PM

I'm getting confused on the whole tier definition thing now...isn't HALF the reasoning based on external help? splats, new books that grant support/options/flat out power boosts & moar PRC "goodness"?

...

No.

By this reasoning, fighter is high-powered tier 4. He can be really good at lockdown. He can be really good at mounted charging. He can dip one level of barbarian and be even better at mounted and unmounted charging. He can take Martial Study three times, and Martial Stance as often as he wants, overcoming his weaknesses with two of the Diamond Mind save-replacers and Wall of Blades. He can get Steadfast Determination and pump his Con to high heaven. But that doesn't mean that a basic fighter is tier 4.

And then we have Rainbow Warsnake. Which jumps Warmage to tier 2 or 1. But does that boost Warmage's tier? No. We have the Tier System for PrCs for that.

Natural Spell, the most mandatory feat EVER, is not what makes the Druid tier 1.

Abrupt Jaunt, Focused Specialist, and the Conjuration Orb spells are not what makes the wizard tier 1.

The tier system assumes a basic level of optimization in choice. This doesn't mean that it assumes the fighter is a Zhentarim Soldier with Improved Trip and Knockdown. It means it assumes straight, un-PrCed, un-ACFed classes. The exception is the tier 4 example of "Zhentarim Soldier Dungeoncrasher Fighter".

But it does count basic equipment. The fighter is assumed to have a +X sword appropriate to his level. The wizard is expected to have the negligible cost material components.

Answerer

2012-07-27, 03:25 PM

In general, the more supplements you have, the less of a gap there is. While splatbooks definitely help the Tier 1 classes, they didn't really need the help -- the most broken spells are all in Core.

But the lower Tier classes, particularly Bard, Fighter, Paladin, and Ranger, all really get a lot of neat new things from various supplements. A Core-only Fighter 20 will run out of good feats to take; supplements add more (quality) feats and also offer some Alternative Class Features that allow the Fighter to actually have unique things. Paladins and Rangers have spellcasting that is strictly inferior to Cleric or Druid spellcasting, respectively, in Core, but while Clerics and Druids will always be the better spellcasters, at least with supplements they get some unique things that Clerics and Druids don't get.

Bard is the clear winner, from Core, in terms of supplements. In Core, he's really underwhelming. With supplements, you can boost Inspire Courage from 'meh, I forgot about it but it doesn't really matter' to 'oh man the Bard makes everyone awesome!', plus the Bard spell list sees a lot of improvement. That's not even mentioning the Sublime Chord.

As for Prestige Classes, Archmage is a solid contender no matter how many supplements are available. Loremaster is a pretty basic "something for nothing" PrC for Wizards (who literally need to take only two feats, one of which they get back anyway and the other of which is a good feat regardless, in order to qualify). Neither of these really is likely to affect a character's tier, though.

Supplements definitely add some powerhouses (Dweormerkeeper, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, and Incantatrix are probably the best among the "merely" powerful; things like Cancer Mage, Tainted Scholar, and Illithid Savant are flat-out broken-even-by-Tier-1-standards), but overall there are more Prestige Classes that hurt a spellcaster than there are Prestige Classes that help them. For every class like Dweormerkeeper or Incantatrix that can arguably "raise" a spellcaster's Tier, there are three like the Void Disciple or Green Star Adept, which very decidedly make a spellcaster's Tier worse.

For non-spellcasters, there is usually less to lose and more to gain from Prestige Classes; this is usually a good thing. Especially things like War Mind or Suel Arcanamach -- things that let you get in on the magical fun even if you've already burned a few levels doing non-spellcasting. Of course, overall, this is also usually a good thing.

So I think you have it backward if you're preventing PrC and supplement use in an attempt to "flatten" the effect of Tiers. The widest imbalance in the game is unquestionably in Core -- where the casters have everything they need, and the mundanes have almost nothing.

Psyren

2012-07-27, 03:27 PM

So are you counting Polymorph, Web and Grease in your evaluation of Wizard's tier? Cause all 3 have material components, and without having the components, you're not casting those spells.

You're behaving silly. A component pouch is not external to a wizard any more than their spellbook is. No Eschew needed.

And are all your fighters unarmed? Or are you using a glaive-based fighter who doesn't ever own a glaive?

Are glaive-based Fighters not T5? If not, what relevance could this have to anything?

eggs

2012-07-27, 03:28 PM

Wu Jen & OA Shaman ought pick up at least half the appropriate spell lists adds from the spell comp, but since that's a DM fiat, it isn't considered, correct?
They're a weird case, since SpC giving them supplementary material isn't fiat, but which material it does provide is.

By this reasoning, fighter is high-powered tier 4. He can be really good at lockdown. He can be really good at mounted charging. He can dip one level of barbarian and be even better at mounted and unmounted charging. He can take Martial Study three times, and Martial Stance as often as he wants, overcoming his weaknesses with two of the Diamond Mind save-replacers and Wall of Blades. He can get Steadfast Determination and pump his Con to high heaven. But that doesn't mean that a basic fighter is tier 4.
This doesn't make any sense to me. Except the Barbarian dip, those are all examples of a Fighter using its class features.

And dropping ACFs seems strange too because without Pounce or other ACFs, the Barbarian doesn't have a whole lot beside numbers, and those numbers aren't much more impressive than the Fighter's.

Godskook

2012-07-27, 03:31 PM

You're behaving silly. A component pouch is not external to a wizard any more than their spellbook is. No Eschew needed.

Are glaive-based Fighters not T5? If not, what relevance could this have to anything?

And you're missing my point(can someone else try explaining it?). My argument is that EK is not external to Wilder any more than a component pouch is external to a Wizard. Remove EK, and you're not actually talking about a Wilder anymore. Its a same-book feat, just like a component pouch is in the same core set that Wizard is in.

Psyren

2012-07-27, 03:33 PM

And you're missing my point(can someone else try explaining it?). My argument is that EK is not external to Wilder any more than a component pouch is external to a Wizard. Remove EK, and you're not actually talking about a Wilder anymore. Its a same-book feat, just like a component pouch is in the same core set that Wizard is in.

How do you figure? A Wilder is pretty clearly a Wilder whether he can borrow powers from other lists or not (because he gets a list of his own.) A Wizard without a spellbook and pouch (or stand-ins for same) is very different - a high will-save commoner in a dress.

Thus, the Wilder's tier is independent of EK.

Hiro Protagonest

2012-07-27, 03:34 PM

And you're missing my point(can someone else try explaining it?). My argument is that EK is not external to Wilder any more than a component pouch is external to a Wizard. Remove EK, and you're not actually talking about a Wilder anymore. Its a same-book feat, just like a component pouch is in the same core set that Wizard is in.

...

Okay, I don't even pretend to understand your thought process any more. If a Wilder got EK as a bonus feat as a class feature, then I'd see it. But as it is? No. It's not even as integral as Natural Spell, a feat that makes the druid's two best class features compatible.

eggs

2012-07-27, 03:42 PM

GenghisDon

2012-07-27, 03:54 PM

Er... what?

You lose animal companion. That's it. You're still a dire bear throwing pokeballs and healing around.

That's an obvious loss, compared to druid, but I better get how you all evaluate tiers. Basicly full caster with full spell lists is tier 1. Spontaneous Casters with limited list is Tier 2.

I'd have guessed loss of wild shape & animal companion would knock the spirit shaman doen to T2, but apparently their (temporarily limited) list & full caster make them 1.5 (or 1-2 depending on point of view).

I also consider the druid list slightly inferior to cleric or wiz/sorcerer list, but that's debatable too, and certainly the druid list is STRONG, with or without splats.

On the WHY TIER X? you have lost me. Many think as you do, it seems, while others are claiming the opposite immediately after. It's irrelevant to me actually, but thanks for trying.

Answerer

2012-07-27, 03:57 PM

Basically, spells trump all. Animal Companion and Wild Shape are strong, but someone who had just those is weaker than someone who has just Druid spellcasting.

Godskook

2012-07-27, 05:20 PM

Less ridiculous examples would probably be Power Attack on a Barbarian or Master Spellthief on a Spellthief - they're not parts of the class, but every character with those class levels is going to take them; failing to consider the option is going to misrepresent every character that sees play

This is my point, exactly. Ty Eggs. (My examples were intentionally ridiculous cause I thought it would've highlighted my point).

But saying that, I'm not sold that a non-Educated Wilder would jump a tier because EK is an option, even considering Psychic Reformation. Wilders are always starved for feats - when EK means dropping Linked/Quicken Power, Psicrystal Containment, Psionic Meditation or daze protection, I'm not convinced that it's a meaningful improvement.

There's also feat leech and 'borrowing the power', both of which open up the Wilder's options considerably.

(Again, both vanilla Wilder options)

Morph Bark

2012-07-27, 05:25 PM

I put them at T3 mostly because they're weaker than psions, so it doesn't feel right to put them on quite the same level. In addition, breaking the game is hard for them without EK, which doesn't quite feel fair as you're reaching outside the confines of the class, which the tier system doesn't really account for.

With that reasoning, Psychic Warriors would have to be put in Tier 4, since Wilders are very clearly stronger than them, and if you continue that trend you end up destroying the Tier system as it is. While Wilders are weaker than Psions, they are in the same Tier, because they cannot change their abilities day by day, but still have easy access to gamebreakers. They are lower in the Tier, sure, but they are the same Tier. If the gamebreakers were removed, Psions would end up being Tier 3, with Wilders being Tier 4 due to these limits of theirs.

Psyren

2012-07-27, 05:53 PM

...

Okay, I don't even pretend to understand your thought process any more. If a Wilder got EK as a bonus feat as a class feature, then I'd see it. But as it is? No. It's not even as integral as Natural Spell, a feat that makes the druid's two best class features compatible.

Precisely; EK is not a class feature.

Less ridiculous examples would probably be Power Attack on a Barbarian or Master Spellthief on a Spellthief - they're not parts of the class, but every character with those class levels is going to take them; failing to consider the option is going to misrepresent every character that sees play

But these are also poor examples. Power Attack does nothing to a Barbarian's tier, because hitting things hard and hitting them REALLY HARD still fall below T3. And Master Spellthief doesn't do anything unless they multiclass.

But saying that, I'm not sold that a non-Educated Wilder would jump a tier because EK is an option, even considering Psychic Reformation. Wilders are always starved for feats - when EK means dropping Linked/Quicken Power, Psicrystal Containment, Psionic Meditation or daze protection, I'm not convinced that it's a meaningful improvement.

But you just pointed out the reason that Educated Wilder is higher. The EKs become class features, and moreover they don't shoulder Linked/Quicken etc. out of view. And the value of what is lost to gain them is so low that they may as well be free.

With that reasoning, Psychic Warriors would have to be put in Tier 4, since Wilders are very clearly stronger than them, and if you continue that trend you end up destroying the Tier system as it is. While Wilders are weaker than Psions, they are in the same Tier, because they cannot change their abilities day by day, but still have easy access to gamebreakers. They are lower in the Tier, sure, but they are the same Tier. If the gamebreakers were removed, Psions would end up being Tier 3, with Wilders being Tier 4 due to these limits of theirs.

Not at all - there's wiggle-room in tiers. Warlocks can handle many more situations than Rogues, yet both are T4. Shugenja have more raw power than Psywars, yet both are T3. Psions have far more gamebreakers than Wu Jen, yet both are T2. etc.

The numbers are themselves representative of ranges; there's just little benefit to drilling down that far.

sreservoir

2012-07-27, 06:21 PM

You're being overly dramatic. The Druid is Tier One because of Druid Spellcasting. You can lose Wildshape, Animal Companion, AND the d8 HD and medium BAB and it's STILL tier 1. Weak tier one, but tier one.

Animal companion and wildshape are important only in that they make it so that a druid that never casts spells STILL largely obsoletes the fighter at low to mid op which pretty well removes any doubt that the designers had no clue whatsoever about ballance.

But the power of a Druid played as a tier 1 caster is not dependent on having a pet fighter or on the ability to turn into a fighter and still cast spells. It's based on his spell list which is quite good actually.

DougL

druid spellcasting is the same tier as spirit shaman, because spirit shaman is, essentially, MAD druid spellcasting using a generally more powerful mechanic. I'd like to say that the MAD isn't significant enough a difference to change the tier, so.

sonofzeal

2012-07-27, 07:00 PM

That being the case, I'm curious how you'd respond to what I had to say about the suggestion of Tier 2 Wu Jen earlier:

Is my definition wrong, or is their list so limited that the ability to change it is meaningless, or..? I have not personally played a Wu Jen.
Your definition is right... but it's more complicated. Merely being a prep'd caster is not enough. The Healer is a prep'd caster, and it's all the way down in... what, T5?

The Wu-Jen's spell list is enormously better than the Healer's, but I'm finding it a bit... deceptive. It's got the feel of the Sor/Wiz one without a lot of the oomph to back it up until the higher levels, and they're casting less of it too. Perhaps more importantly, they lack the big divinations (Contact Other Plane and kin) to know what to prepare, and without that there's no good method of prepping the right spells. And without that, the limit on spells-per-day you can prep is all the more relevant.

From JaronK:

Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing.

Can Wu-Jen do absolutely everything? Probably not; their spell list, while Wizardly, just doesn't have a quarter the depth. They can do a heck of a lot, but not everything - and again the limit on spells prepped here is relevant, because if they try to do everything then they run out of steam far faster than any of the actual T1's.

From JaronK:

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks.

...

If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes.
....yep, that sounds like exactly what I was saying. The rest of the description seems tailored to Spontaneous casters, but I think that's lazy writing more than anything, and the two excerpts apply. The Sor/Wiz list has 10,000 nukes; the WuJen list, for most of its career, is far closer to 10. They blossom with their top level spells, but so do Healer and Truenamer. If they haven't come into their own by 10th level, I'm not going to consider 20th level power all that relevant.