Building a sandbox

[Greyfeld85]

As a player who has recently begun trying his hand at DMing, I have a hard time juggling preparation and improvisation. However, I have a couple more game ideas I'd like to get off the ground, and they're more sandbox-heavy than the game I'm currently running.

So for the experienced DMs out there, how do you go about preparing for a sandbox game? What are the things you plan out, and the things you improvise on the spot? How much do you leave up to the players to decide, and how much do you guide them, yourself?

If it matters, all my games are PBP, not RL.

[LadyLexi]

First step: You'll need to get four long wooden planks...

Trolling aside, I always run various levels of sandbox games. A few go better than others.

I usually start off by drawing a rough sketch of the land/lands where my game takes place, I name the political/national groups and their leadership. I try to develop at least 3 facts/rumors per leader and per group. This gives me an idea of how the world interacts with its self.

Usually before each game I will prepare 3-5 generic encounters, things that I have prepared if they should be reasonable to come up. Its strange how a group of orc hunters can quickly be adjusted to a group of dwarven bandits.

I will develop 4-10 "leads" or story prompts for the players to discover/ hear about and I let them pick what they want to do, if anything. On occasion they will stay around and take up simple work, more often the desire for coin promotes them to go look in dangerous places. I also try to make things custom tailored for my player's. If the Elven warmage's player tells me that her character hates necromancers then I'll drop in a bit of a necromancer plot.

I keep really loose in my rulings, yet I don't allow homebrew unless everyone (including myself) is cool with it. I try to push plot by pulling on the connections characters have. Paladins are good for plot promotion, Chaotic Neutral rogues are a bit more difficult.

If you are short on prep time, use assistant tools on the internet to help you fast generate monsters. I'm not sure if I can link to them, but there are things that advance monsters for you, add class levels and HD. Even really silly random encounter generators.

[Greyfeld85]

Hmmm... what about sandboxes that have an overarching plot? Keeping players from completely ignoring the plot, while giving them a sandbox to play in, seems like it would be an extremely difficult balancing act.

[Andezzar]

Hmmm... what about sandboxes that have an overarching plot? Keeping players from completely ignoring the plot, while giving them a sandbox to play in, seems like it would be an extremely difficult balancing act.Isn't that the thing about sandbox games, that the characters are allowed to ignore the overarching plot?

So you drop hints about the plot, If the characters take them, they follow that plot, if they don't well there is enough sand in the box to keep them entertained.

Time sensitive plots are especially "interesting". Depending on the characters' actions the plans of the villain can be thwarted at a very early stage or the PCs might be in a situation where they have no chance of averting the impending catastrophe. This may be less epic than the whole "PCs arrive exactly at the right time to stop the villain" but it is also a lot more believable IMHO.

The problem for the DM is though, that he will probably prepare a lot of stuff the PCs will never get to see.

[Greyfeld85]

Isn't that the thing about sandbox games, that the characters are allowed to ignore the overarching plot?

So you drop hints about the plot, If the characters take them, they follow that plot, if they don't well there is enough sand in the box to keep them entertained.

Time sensitive plots are especially "interesting". Depending on the characters' actions the plans of the villain can be thwarted at a very early stage or the PCs might be in a situation where they have no chance of averting the impending catastrophe. This may be less epic than the whole "PCs arrive exactly at the right time to stop the villain" but it is also a lot more believable IMHO.

The problem for the DM is though, that he will probably prepare a lot of stuff the PCs will never get to see.

The presence of a plot doesn't preclude a sandbox game. A sandbox is about granting a range of freedom and autonomy, but it doesn't mean that there's no plot whatsoever.

[Andezzar]

I didn't say that there was no plot, but that the PCs have the freedom to explore other areas than the overarching plot.

[Greyfeld85]

I didn't say that there was no plot, but that the PCs have the freedom to explore other areas than the overarching plot.

.... didn't I already say that?

[Andezzar]

You said it as if the PCs deciding not to follow the overarching plot were a problem. I just wanted to emphasize that it shouldn't be in a sandbox game.

[Yora]

The first thing is to know what the players want to do. There is no need for dwarven mountain cities, if all they want to do is being pirates.

[Ranting Fool]

Hmmm... what about sandboxes that have an overarching plot? Keeping players from completely ignoring the plot, while giving them a sandbox to play in, seems like it would be an extremely difficult balancing act.

Well depending on the plot let the bad things happen. Players hear that an evil x of x will be killing children of x unless someone finds the x of x to save them! If the PC's go "Muh, I'd rather hunt down a few bandits" let them :smallbiggrin: just so long as the world doesn't stop for them. The PC's can hear how those poor kids are now dead and the big bad is even harder to stop / evil is now unleashed / the sun is now blackened and an army of undead have killed 90% of all NPC :smallbiggrin:

I suggest you try and keep any major plots away from the "if the PC's don't stop this the world will end!" in a sandbox-y game if you aren't sure the PC's will take the bait... because... well... the world will end randomly on the PC's who will be very confused :smallbiggrin:

Best way to do a sandbox type game is to make sure you as the DM have a clear view of the world/land the PC's are in and what is going on. Then just make a lot of encounters / plothooks and see where it takes you. Also it is easier at lower levels as PC's tend to be less mobile, they can't just decide to teleport to the city of over there somewhere.

Also a Dirty Little DM trick.... a lot of encounters / dungeons can be moved around. If you want your PC's to find the long lost tomb of Bobvile you can sneak it in anywhere because its... well been lost :smallbiggrin: yes the idea is for the game to be open, but having a few set template type ideas which can be stuck in always helps you to not sit there and go "errrrrr you travel randomly off to the west away from all known maps... errrr.... yeah.... stuff happens!" :smallbiggrin:

Edit:


The first thing is to know what the players want to do. There is no need for dwarven mountain cities, if all they want to do is being pirates.

Very much this. If your players like to hang around big cities and find out evil plots, make sure there are cities around which may/may not have evil plots. If they want to go deep underground and loot long lost tombs make sure you have planned a few :smallbiggrin:

[Andezzar]

+1 to the Ranting Fool.

[ceduct]

the real basics for me are to know your players characters, have an updated copy of their sheet at all time, why? it makes it a little easier to anticipate what their characters will do (default not wat you expect)

action and reaction/ cause and effect govern what happens, initiating stuff is up to the players if they are at a loss throwing something minor in for them to react on (guy gets arrested, npc fight, tree topples, cave in w/e)
you'll be amazed at what your players come up with, just roll with it

good advice on having a clear picture of their environmentlike , having 1 or 2 'random' encounters handy since a lot boils down to fight, win, feel good

names for the world, lands, cities and npc's help

best of luck

[Ranting Fool]

the real basics for me are to know your players characters, have an updated copy of their sheet at all time, why? it makes it a little easier to anticipate what their characters will do (default not what you expect)

I would say this is a must for any DM no matter the type of game :smallbiggrin: being able to know what each party member is able to do helps out a lot when planning challenges. And not having to stop mid game and say "you do what now? how? err what page? right...errr....ok ok so this Maze has a magic invisible roof so you CAN'T fly above it! So you must now walk through the traps and puzzles I spent all weekend making!" :smallbiggrin:

Oh and if you are aiming for a good Sandbox game type set up be ready to not get upset when the PC's aren't bothered to go to the really cool epic place that you spent 14 hours designing! As they should be free to just wonder off and fight squirrels if that is what they want to do.

[Ingus]

Ranting Fool seems to have DMed a lot of sandobxes (hence the name? :smalltongue:)
I may also add: cheat in encounters, but never, ever, ever get caught.
A fake sandbox may piss off your players more than a railroad.

Another good way to keep involved PCs is the nasty recurring villain. The BBEG that escaped, won, stole the macguffin and make fun of them will likely attract their attention wherever they are and whatever they're doing.

[Ranting Fool]

Ranting Fool seems to have DMed a lot of sandobxes (hence the name? :smalltongue:)
I may also add: cheat in encounters, but never, ever, ever get caught.
A fake sandbox may piss off your players more than a railroad.

Another good way to keep involved PCs is the nasty recurring villain. The BBEG that escaped, won, stole the macguffin and make fun of them will likely attract their attention wherever they are and whatever they're doing.

Well I'm known to rant quite a bit (Such as after seeing the latest Batman film) and I do enjoy a good rant from my friends when I say silly things like "So, how's work?" and I've always considered myself a bit of a fool :smallbiggrin: though Fool (as in court jester) might also work if the mood takes me :smallbiggrin:

All my games tend to be Sandbox-ish some more some less, e.g yes you can go anywhere you like but since you are trapped on this small island/demi plane/within a city under martial law there are issues trying to leave :smallbiggrin:

I find it really fun and really frustrating depending on how much effort I put into making a cool encounter which the PC's just ignore :smalltongue: or how sometimes the PC's come out with a plan that never in a million years would have crossed my mind and change the whole direction of the game :smallbiggrin:

BBEG's are always a good idea, make sure they are someone/thing that your PC's would want to fight. Also make plans for if/when they die. Having the BBEG have an escape rute is all well and good but if it's always "ha ha the BBEG gets away because I say he does" tends to not go down so well.

So if the BBEG is known to always teleport away, the players might make sure they have spells or items to hold him here while they beat on him/her/it.

Also re-accruing NPC's are fun. Travelling traders or other hero types as well as the BBEG. I find that my PC's often go to someone they know to find out info on random plot hooks (Right now the PC's are asking a Halfling Necromancer they know, LN guy, to find out info on some LE sorcerers because in the past he has known things/had useful contacts with some less than good types that some of the PC's wouldn't want to deal with directly)

back to the topic at hand: A lot of posters, such as Ur-Priest, have links in their Sig to helpful Handbooks and Guides that I've found really very useful as well as the ever friendly Playgrounders as a whole answering my random questions.

1: find out what kind of game your players want to run. (Dungeon Crawl/save the day/city based/in the mountains/Sea based/planewalkers)

2: find out what characters/classes they want to do (Or do point 3 first then give them restrictions)

3: Build a world, start with a base idea of what you want (hey there is a reason a lot of stereotypes exists in fantasy, people like them) and the rules/books you are allowing/banning (If you want Low Magic, then having your PC's all be wizards kinda changes that)

4: Start filling in details. Remember you don't have to do/know EVERYTHING yet, only what your PC's know. So if they don't know what is beyond the mountains of Doom, then you don't have to work it out just yet (though having a vague idea helps) it helps if your PC's starting at a lower level (under 5) as they won't yet be flying around or teleporting halfway across the world.

5: Enjoy. If you enjoy making up things on the fly/are very good at it then just go with it, if not have some easy to do template encounters that you can move around depending on where the PC's go. One crypt is much like another. Avoid being caught at this as it ruins the feel of "I can do anything I want" but having a handy list of CR X monsters/encounters with their book and page written down really is helpful. If my PC's go to a Jungle I like to have a list of Jungle monsters (that I've picked for that type of Jungle) and NPC's they may or may not meet.

6. Minor point, try and keep an "Internal world logical consistency" so if there are Dragons in the woods nearby, people would know about them/fear them/have protection from them. If spellcasters can do X, make sure the world already knows about that (unless the NPC's have no knowledge) adding random things you come across into your world is fine as long as you either make them come from far away/so very rare that no one has seen one in years so that is why they've never been mentioned before OR have them mentioned by NPC's long before the PC's come across them.

[KoboldCleric]

To answer the op, I improvise nearly everything. I also like to start my sandbox games in medias res (e.g. You're running through the streets of town with a chest of gold in one hand and your cutlass drawn in the other ...) ; this allows the players, by their actions, to set the tone of the game (do they run as pirates and thieves because they stole the chests, do they take it to the temple to give to the poor, do they try to find the person who framed them, etc.). As DM, I know my players, so I know what sorts of stats and abilities can make a fight challenging, overwhelming, or too easy. In a sandbox I can splice whay I need on to any chassis, rather than limiting myself to published templates. Most players will care more about the challenge level and the story than they will about you rigidly "playing by the rules" as DM, so have at it.

[Greyfeld85]

I guess the type of game I'd like to play is more of a.... gated sandbox? The characters have to stay in a specific area, and there's an overarching plot that is important to the area, but how they go about discovering, interacting, or circumventing that plot is completely up to them.

Like, just as an example, one of the ideas I have is that all the players are demons who have a chance at taking the throne, as the king of hell recently kicked the bucket. So, the boundaries are pretty clearly defined, but they can do almost anything they want within those bounds.

[Tyndmyr]

I would say this is a must for any DM no matter the type of game :smallbiggrin: being able to know what each party member is able to do helps out a lot when planning challenges. And not having to stop mid game and say "you do what now? how? err what page? right...errr....ok ok so this Maze has a magic invisible roof so you CAN'T fly above it! So you must now walk through the traps and puzzles I spent all weekend making!" :smallbiggrin:

I never bother with that. I mean, I have memorized what players normally do...but capabilities change. If that somehow negates a specific puzzle? That's the way the cookie crumbles.

[Kavurcen]

It's really important to know your players. I discovered this along with one of my players' encyclopedic knowledge of riddles when... well, I tried a riddle.

[Ranting Fool]

I never bother with that. I mean, I have memorized what players normally do...but capabilities change. If that somehow negates a specific puzzle? That's the way the cookie crumbles.

oh I let my cunning plans fail all the time :smallbiggrin: I just like to know that if they can now bypass something I've made for them because they picked up a magic item that'll be really useful I have made sure I have enough stuff planned so I don't struggle and mind-blank mid game :smallbiggrin: I like to have a vague idea of what could happen in any game sesson unless the players go off in a random way.


Oh back to the topic. A useful thing I've starting doing is making sure I ask the players what their characters are planning on doing for the next sesson / in the near future. Not to plan that but for example "I'm planning on paying a priest to ask the Gods about the BBEG so I can track him down" I'll have prices and answers/or not depending if they can. Or something like "Well I want to sell all this loot, then see if good old Mr Questgiver has more work for us after we went and raided the tomb of loot for him"

A lot of the time what they plan doesn't happen or they change their minds but it does give you a lot of options to pre-plan things that MIGHT happen or happen later.

Edit:


It's really important to know your players. I discovered this along with one of my players' encyclopedic knowledge of riddles when... well, I tried a riddle.

Or finding out that some of your players REALLY suck at riddles and it stonewalls the whole sesson as they can't/won't move on :smallbiggrin: I have been guilty of having an NPC tag along at points like that so that if the PC's really fail the NPC might get a lucky guess / say something that is a clue but I think that is a rather bad habbit of mine which I've avoided a lot lately. :smallbiggrin:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

As a GM, I prefer to lay out a sandbox world as well. Here's some ideas.

1) Perspective. It's the player's. You might need to know what is going on, but remember that it's all from the player's perspective. In other words, you can have a vague idea about the world itself, but in the immediate vicinity of the players, it had better be fairly well described.

2) Notes. You can has them. It's the only way to properly run a sandbox game. If players to to Location X, and you provide them with a detailed description. If they go BACK to Location X, that's what they'll be expecting, or at least something that started off at the description they recall, if something has happened since then.

3) Plot hooks. Players may want them, or may not. Try to have backup plans for your backup plans. Try seeding the area with a few different kinds to see what sort of game your players want. If they don't seem to be biting them, either figure out what it is they are wanting, or provide some more local entertainment (bar fights, raids on the village they are in, etc...)

4) Overarching plot, don't worry about it for a while. In fact, you won't even need to have one until they hit mid-level. Then start piecing together bits and pieces of the plotlines they have been following, and weave them together into something larger.

For example, if your PC's have been tracking down reports of increased Orc activity, ran into a couple of orc raids, and has looked into the corruption of some nobles in the area... the overarching plotline could be 'the orc tribes, usually too scattered and factional to be too much harm to civilized areas, have gathered under a single banner, posing a more serious threat. Some of the local nobility have been given bribes to 'look the other way' to keep the Guard from interfering until it is too late'.

From there, your PC's can either track down where the bribes are coming from, or they could start questioning the orcs they capture, or they could journey out into the wilds where the orcs are supposed to be coming from, or they could go somewhere else entirely. Then when they come back.. the orcs will be a lot more organized, a few outlying villages have been sacked, and a fairly major outpost is under seige.

[Ranting Fool]

2) Notes. You can has them. It's the only way to properly run a sandbox game. If players to to Location X, and you provide them with a detailed description. If they go BACK to Location X, that's what they'll be expecting, or at least something that started off at the description they recall, if something has happened since then.

Aye, I make my players keep a little record sheet for names (have copies myself) so if they meet innkeeper Bob the the Drunken Goblin then next time they come back it'll be innkeeper Bob there again, or else tails of how good old Bob was eaten by a monster (yay plot hooks)

Making sure you know where things are and they stay in the same place is very important. And my players really seem to like to see how the world changes by their actions. E.g They helped a bunch of refugees out and now the town they convinced to shelter them is doing better with the added skilled labour.

[Kavurcen]

2) Notes. You can has them. It's the only way to properly run a sandbox game. If players to to Location X, and you provide them with a detailed description. If they go BACK to Location X, that's what they'll be expecting, or at least something that started off at the description they recall, if something has happened since then.

About this... one of the most entertaining ways to jar the party into a emergency mode is have them return to a frequent destination, which is now altered in a massive way, i.e. completely destroyed, inhabited entirely by kobolds, or something surreal like all of the shopkeepers are different.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

About this... one of the most entertaining ways to jar the party into a emergency mode is have them return to a frequent destination, which is now altered in a massive way, i.e. completely destroyed, inhabited entirely by kobolds, or something surreal like all of the shopkeepers are different.

Done on purpose, this can definitely lend a Lovecraftian surrealism that makes the PC's start wondering what reality they are operating in.

Done by accident, however... not so much.

If you're throwing them that kind of plot hook, you need notes not only on what it was, but why it is the way it is now, and what the the reactions to the PC's questions might be.

But yea, it can be quite a wake-up call to have a favorite resupply town suddenly be something completely different.