Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

[Surrealistik]

Personally, I think most Red Mage archetypes should be based on half the Charisma mod (rounded up) in most cases, though tbh, I wouldn't mind a secondary score being invoked, especially if there were some degree of choice as to what it would be.

[Surrealistik]

Change to Counterspell Mastery, so counterspelling is more viable:

Counterspell Mastery: The blue mage no longer needs to use the correct spell to counterspell - he may counterspell with any spell of an equivalent level or above. The blue mage may also attempt to counterspell as an Immediate Action. If he does so however, he loses his next action of the same type that was expended to cast the countered spell (or a full-round action if its cast time was longer than a full-round action).

In addition, if the Blue Mage successfully counters a spell, the caster of the countered spell may not cast spells for one round.


Potential Blue Mage L5 base feature as an alternative choice to Bend the Will:

Spellseize (Su): Whenever the Blue Mage successfully counters a spell, oppose his Spellcraft check used to counter that spell against a Spellcraft check of that countered spell's caster. On a success, the Blue Mage gains control of that spell and may choose new targets/make new decisions for it (it's otherwise unchanged).

Blue Mage, Spelltyrant Archetype:


Bonus Spells:
1: Arcane Sensitivity (http://dndtools.eu/spells/shining-south--25/arcane-sensitivity--3271/), Distort Speech (http://dndtools.eu/spells/complete-adventurer--54/distort-speech--416/)
2: Arcane Turmoil (http://dndtools.eu/spells/complete-mage--58/arcane-turmoil--761/), Dispelling Touch (http://dndtools.eu/spells/players-handbook-ii--80/dispelling-touch--2909/)
3: Battlemagic Perception (http://dndtools.eu/spells/heroes-of-battle--69/battlemagic-perception--1403/), Spellcaster's Bane (http://dndtools.eu/spells/complete-mage--58/spellcasters-bane--804/)
Capstone SLA: Spell Theft (http://dndtools.eu/spells/complete-scoundrel--60/spell-theft--896/)

Lesser Archetype Power (Greater Counterspell): The Blue Mage doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity when counterspelling and gains a +2 bonus to Spellcraft checks and an overlapping +4 bonus to Spellcraft checks made as part of a counterspell.

In addition, the Blue Mage can counterspell non-creature entities (such as items and objects), and spell-like and supernatural abilities if they replicate a spell, or all effects of a spell. These are henceforth known as 'counterable abilities'. The effects of class features Spellseize and Counterspell Mastery also apply to such counterable abilities that are successfully countered and their casters/origins (including non-creature casters/origins).


Moderate Archetype Power (Flash Counter): Once per encounter, the Blue Mage may counter a spell or counterable ability as a free action. A spell cast to enact this counterspell cannot be countered.


Greater Archetype Power (Spell Suppression): Whenever the Blue Mage successfully counters a spell or counterable ability, the Blue Mage may subject the caster/user/origin of that spell or ability to the supernatural condition Spell Suppression.

Any creature or other entity subject to Spell Suppression cannot use spells and counterable abilities until the end of the encounter or until it succeeds on a Will save made once during the start of its first turn each round as a free action, adding the higher of its caster level or Spellcraft skill bonus as a bonus to this save. The wielder or controller of a suppressed entity may make a Will save in this way in place of that entity. The DC of this save is equal to the Blue Mage's Spellcraft check for the triggering counterspell.

[Surrealistik]

Here's a thought:

What if each archetype offered alternate features as optional substitutions for existing base class features?

For example the Spelltyrant archetype would permit someone to take Spellseize in place of Bend the Will.

[Gnorman]

So, here's a rough, not-quite-complete draft of a Red Mage redesign


The Red Mage
HD: d6
Class Skills: Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (dungeoneering), Knowledge (the planes), Profession, Ride, Spellcraft, Swim, Tumble
Skill Points: 4 + Int per level (4x at 1st)

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|0|1|2|3

1st|+0|+2|+0|+2|Archetype Power (Lesser), Spellcasting|5|4|-|-

2nd|+1|+3|+0|+3|Advanced Learning (1st), Spell Mastery|6|5|-|-

3rd|+2|+3|+1|+3|Archetype Power (Moderate)|6|6|3|-

4th|+3|+4|+1|+4|Advanced Learning (2nd), Level Four|6|6|4|-

5th|+3|+4|+1|+4|Level Five|6|6|5|3

6th|+4|+5|+2|+5|Advanced Learning (3rd), Archetype Power (Greater)|6|6|6|4[/table]

Class Abilities

Proficiencies: The red mage is proficient with light armor, medium armor, simple weapons, and martial weapons. He does not suffer from arcane failure while in light armor or medium armor.

Spellcasting: The red mage casts arcane spells from a specialized list, which is included below. The red mage need not prepare spells ahead of time - he may spontaneously cast any spell on his list from the appropriate slot. He still requires eight hours of rest to refresh his spells. His sole casting stat is Charisma, which dictates both the DC of his spells and his bonus spells. To cast a spell, a red mage must have an Charisma score equal to 10 + the level of spell in question.

Archetype: At 1st level, the red mage chooses an archetype from the following list. Once made, the choice is final. Each archetype offers a set of powers and adds bonus spells known to the red mage's list, which are listed below and received when he becomes capable of casting spells of the same level.

Advanced Learning: At 2nd level, and every other level afterwards, the red mage may add a single spell to his list of spells known. The spell cannot be of a level higher than he is capable of casting. The red mage may only select evocation spells from the sorcerer/wizard list.

Spell Mastery: Whenever a red mage deals damage with a spell, he deals an additional amount equal to his Charisma modifier plus his class level. This additional damage can only be applied once per casting to any particular target.

Level 4: Placeholder

Level 5: Placeholder

Red Mage Spell List:
0: Acid Splash, Dancing Lights, Daze, Detect Magic, Flare, Mage Hand, Message, Prestidigitation, Read Magic
1: Alarm, Burning Hands, Endure Elements, Enlarge Person, Entropic Shield, Grease, Jump, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Magic Weapon, Produce Flame, Shield, Shocking Grasp, True Strike
2: Acid Arrow, Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Continual Flame, Eagle's Splendor, Flame Blade, Flaming Sphere, Glitterdust, Protection from Arrows, Pyrotechnics, Resist Energy, Scorching Ray
3: Dispel Magic, Explosive Runes, Fireball, Fire Shield, Flame Arrow, Haste, Heroism, Ice Storm, Keen Edge, Lightning Bolt, Magic Circle Against Alignment, Greater Magic Weapon, Phantom Steed, Protection from Energy, Slow


Archetypes


Blaster

Lesser Archetype Power: When casting any spell that deals acid, fire, electricity, or cold damage, the blaster may replace the energy type with any of the four. For example, the red mage could choose to have a Fireball deal cold damage, or an Ice Storm deal electricity damage. In addition, when selecting spells with his Advanced Learning ability, a blaster may select any spell with the [acid], [cold], [electricity], or [fire] descriptor.
Moderate Archetype Power: A blaster may ignore an amount of acid, fire, cold, or electricity resistance possessed by an opponent equal to his class level plus his Charisma modifier, to a maximum of ten. If the opponent possesses immunity to the element instead, treat it as if it had a resistance of 20.
Greater Archetype Power: When casting a spell that deals acid, fire, cold, or electricity damage, a blaster may increase his caster level by up to half his Charisma modifier, even past his HD limit, with all the increase in parameters that entails. The blaster takes 1d6 untyped damage per each caster level increased.


Buffer

Lesser Archetype Power: Whenever a buffer casts a beneficial spell on an ally, that ally gains a morale bonus to attack and damage rolls equal to the level of the spell for a number of rounds equal to the buffer's Charisma modifier. In addition, when selecting spells for his Advanced Learning ability, the buffer may select abjuration or transmutation spells from the sorcerer/wizard list.
Moderate Archetype Power: When casting any beneficial single-target spell with a range of touch, a buffer may split the duration among a number of additional adjacent targets (up to his Charisma modifier). The duration may not be divided into increments less than the base increment of the spell (such as one minute for Bull's Strength or ten minutes for Heroism). All other parameters of the spell remain the same.
Greater Archetype Power: Whenever a buffer confers an enhancement or morale bonus with a spell, the numerical bonus conferred is multiplied by 1.5.


Controller

Lesser Archetype Power: INCOMPLETE

In addition, when selecting spells for his Advanced Learning ability, a controller may select conjuration spells from the sorcerer/wizard list.
Moderate Archetype Power: When casting a spell that affects an area, a controller may choose to omit a number of targets from the spell's effect equal to his Charisma modifier.
Greater Archetype Power: Whenever a controller deals acid, cold, fire, or electricity damage, the target(s) of the spell must make a save (DC equal to 10 + the level of the spell + the controller's Charisma modifier) or suffer from the following effects.

Acid: The target(s) must make a Fortitude save or be nauseated for one round.

Cold: The target(s) must make a Fortitude save or be slowed for one round.

Electricity: The target(s) must make a Reflex save or be dazed for one round.

Fire: The target(s) must make a Will save or be frightened for one round.

[OzzyKP]

Anyone want a chance to join an ongoing game using Gnorman's E6 rules? It has been going since February and is a horror-themed medieval inter-dimensional campaign. We've got a fantastic DM and some great players, and we have two openings.

We need a new player for Geoffry Mac Tir (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=520368) (Initiate, Zealot) and Brandon Moore (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=521511) (Hunter, Deadeye)

Say something here if you're interested:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272350

[Eldest]

Anyone want a chance to join an ongoing game using Gnorman's E6 rules? It has been going since February and is a horror-themed medieval inter-dimensional campaign. We've got a fantastic DM and some great players, and we have two openings.

We need a new player for Geoffry Mac Tir (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=520368) (Initiate, Zealot) and Brandon Moore (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=521511) (Hunter, Deadeye)

Say something here if you're interested:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272350

Posting here because I plan on walking through the new red mage after this: so you have openings, and you wish people to take over existing characters?

Red Mage

Skills: It's a wee bit short for 4/level, and additionally I think all classes should get spot and listen. So that's my suggestion.

Class features: Advanced Learning is really, really bland while also being quite swingy with regards to power level based on what they pick. I'd recommend switching back to the named, specific class features and allow them for a battlefield mage. Initiative bonii, better casting defensively, and the ability to do something about melee combat a few times a day (retributive burst damage or something) are ideas I'd go off of, and then add in the Advanced Learning as a feat, with a note by it for the DM to pay close attention to it and (maybe) a limit on how many times you can take it.

Spell list: I'd suggest adding in at least one single target 3rd level spell, since all of the damage spells are either buffs for others or three types of area damage of various elemental flavors.

Blaster: I could imagine a problem if this guy is facing somebody he can't know the resistances of, such as if it's covered by a knowledge that he can't get. Only possible problem I can see right now.

Buffer: You're going to need to refine the language for it's lesser ability. Adjacent to who? The buffer? The target of the spell? The king?

Controller: Grease, Glitterdust, Pyrokinetics, Slow. Those are the four in-house controlling options the Red Mage gets, before it's greater ability. Something to think about.

[OzzyKP]

Posting here because I plan on walking through the new red mage after this: so you have openings, and you wish people to take over existing characters?


Yes. There are two existing characters we'd like to find players for. In the event their original players return, they will go back to controlling their characters and new players would be able to roll up new characters and continue playing as them.

[Eldest]

Yes. There are two existing characters we'd like to find players for. In the event their original players return, they will go back to controlling their characters and new players would be able to roll up new characters and continue playing as them.

Then I am not interested.

[OzzyKP]

I guess we're still discussing how we want to bring in the new people. It might be with new characters right from the start.

[Surrealistik]

Personally, I'd rather the Red Mage drop the martial profs, maybe medium armour and gain an at-will touch/ranged magic attack that relies on his Charisma, even if it isn't improved by subsequent class attributes. Again, keep the focus on the blaster, get away from the gish.

Advanced Learning itself is bland, but makes for interesting if yes, potentially overpowered possibilities (especially when combined with the Archetype abilities). Regardless, that is _definitely_ more of a Blue Mage ability, and I'd consider giving some variant of it to the Blue Mage as an alternate option to his existing L2 (which enhances something that is painfully situational and remains so post-buff to be frank), or to a 'Scholar'/'Spellsage' Blue Mage archetype concerned with maximizing spells known/arcane diversity. If you want to keep it, I'd strongly consider limiting it to the spells known list of the other casters and possibly their archetypes (obviously drop the Evo only if reassigned to Blue Mages).

"When casting any spell that deals acid, fire, electricity, or cold damage, the blaster may replace the energy type with any of the three."

Did you mean four?

Everything else has been pretty well addressed.

[ZeltArruin]

"When casting any spell that deals acid, fire, electricity, or cold damage, the blaster may replace the energy type with any of the three."

Did you mean four?

Everything else has been pretty well addressed.

There are only 3 options beyond the one that allows you to make the substitution.

[Surrealistik]

What I meant to highlight is that you could have dual (or more) damage types (fire and sonic for example). One or both of the types trigger the ability, and then you could replace both types with a singular energy type, even if one of the triggering dual damage types is the same as the damage type replacing both (fire replacing fire and sonic for example, though you could also interpret it as replacing only triggering damage types of dual typed damage).

But this niche case aside, wouldn't it be better/more accurate to say "may replace any instance of these damage types for that spell with one of these damage types"? This eliminates all of the rules ambiguity in that you clearly and definitively substitute the triggering damage types only with exactly one damage type of those listed on a per instance/case by case basis.

If less granular control is desired, simply substitute 'any' with 'all', minding your plurality :p.

[Gnorman]

Posting here because I plan on walking through the new red mage after this: so you have openings, and you wish people to take over existing characters?

Red Mage

Skills: It's a wee bit short for 4/level, and additionally I think all classes should get spot and listen. So that's my suggestion.

Class features: Advanced Learning is really, really bland while also being quite swingy with regards to power level based on what they pick. I'd recommend switching back to the named, specific class features and allow them for a battlefield mage. Initiative bonii, better casting defensively, and the ability to do something about melee combat a few times a day (retributive burst damage or something) are ideas I'd go off of, and then add in the Advanced Learning as a feat, with a note by it for the DM to pay close attention to it and (maybe) a limit on how many times you can take it.

Spell list: I'd suggest adding in at least one single target 3rd level spell, since all of the damage spells are either buffs for others or three types of area damage of various elemental flavors.

Blaster: I could imagine a problem if this guy is facing somebody he can't know the resistances of, such as if it's covered by a knowledge that he can't get. Only possible problem I can see right now.

Buffer: You're going to need to refine the language for it's lesser ability. Adjacent to who? The buffer? The target of the spell? The king?

Controller: Grease, Glitterdust, Pyrokinetics, Slow. Those are the four in-house controlling options the Red Mage gets, before it's greater ability. Something to think about.

Advanced Learning is, for better or worse, something I'd hoped to introduce to the casting classes. Mainly, I was hoping to offer a way to introduce non-core sources to the spell lists based on the source availability of particular groups, and allow players to customize their spell lists. You're right in that it can be abused (Alter Self does come to mind), but one spell per spell level hopefully won't be horrible. I initially had it at two, but decided to beef up the general spell list a tad instead.

General: A few more abilities will always be welcomed, and yes, I think an initiative bonus or a defensive casting bonus might definitely be possibilities. Advanced Learning is not replacing abilities - it's a straight replacement to the bonus spells offered by archetypes.

Blaster: I still think the general level 4 ability will be a bonus to monster identification, to aid with that specific concern. Red mages should be the masters of monstrous knowledge - can't kill something you don't know.

Buffer: Did you mean the moderate ability here? The lesser ability doesn't deal with adjacent targets. In any case, I meant adjacent to the red mage at the time of casting, since it's restricted to spells with touch.

Controller: Not quite sure what you meant by that. Controller's a bit less well defined than the other archetypes, I'm afraid - I want something that can still blast, but also manipulate the battlefield and opponents. Inflicting status effects seemed a way to do that. Whereas the blaster excels at single-target damage, the controller is less destructive but can keep his enemies corralled and docile.


Personally, I'd rather the Red Mage drop the martial profs, maybe medium armour and gain an at-will touch/ranged magic attack that relies on his Charisma, even if it isn't improved by subsequent class attributes. Again, keep the focus on the blaster, get away from the gish.

Advanced Learning itself is bland, but makes for interesting if yes, potentially overpowered possibilities (especially when combined with the Archetype abilities). Regardless, that is _definitely_ more of a Blue Mage ability, and I'd consider giving some variant of it to the Blue Mage as an alternate option to his existing L2 (which enhances something that is painfully situational and remains so post-buff to be frank), or to a 'Scholar'/'Spellsage' Blue Mage archetype concerned with maximizing spells known/arcane diversity. If you want to keep it, I'd strongly consider limiting it to the spells known list of the other casters and possibly their archetypes (obviously drop the Evo only if reassigned to Blue Mages).

"When casting any spell that deals acid, fire, electricity, or cold damage, the blaster may replace the energy type with any of the three."

Did you mean four?

Everything else has been pretty well addressed.

Advanced Learning is an all or nothing proposition - either all the mage classes are going to get it, or none. The Blue Mage will likely have the largest pool to draw from, though - divination, enchantment, and illusion.

I've definitely been looking over your proposed suggestions, Surrealistik, and I'm toying with some kind of scaling energy blast. Allowing the red mage to blast basically forever does seem right up his alley, but I'm still working out the particulars. Likely, it will be 1d6 per two levels plus Charisma mod, chosen between acid, fire, electricity, or cold. An archetype might improve upon the base feature.

The Red Mage's proficiencies might stay, if only to make him feel a bit more martially-oriented than the others. He no longer has abilities that encourage him to wade into melee, though. At the very least, I think I'll leave medium armor.


There are only 3 options beyond the one that allows you to make the substitution.


What I meant to highlight is that you could have dual (or more) damage types (fire and sonic for example). One or both of the types trigger the ability, and then you could replace both types with a singular energy type, even if one of the triggering dual damage types is the same as the damage type replacing both (fire replacing fire and sonic for example, though you could also interpret it as replacing only triggering damage types of dual typed damage).

But this niche case aside, wouldn't it be better/more accurate to say "may replace any instance of these damage types for that spell with one of these damage types"? This eliminates all of the rules ambiguity in that you clearly and definitively substitute the triggering damage types only with exactly one damage type of those listed on a per instance/case by case basis.

If less granular control is desired, simply substitute 'any' with 'all', minding your plurality :p.

I meant either "the other three" or "four." Coldball instead of Fireball, Acidic Ray instead of Scorching Ray, Firebolt instead of Lightning Bolt, Shocking Hands instead of Burning Hands, etc.

I've fixed the wording to "four" there. I hadn't considered the admixture case, though.

[Eldest]

Advanced Learning is, for better or worse, something I'd hoped to introduce to the casting classes. Mainly, I was hoping to offer a way to introduce non-core sources to the spell lists based on the source availability of particular groups, and allow players to customize their spell lists. You're right in that it can be abused (Alter Self does come to mind), but one spell per spell level hopefully won't be horrible. I initially had it at two, but decided to beef up the general spell list a tad instead.

General: A few more abilities will always be welcomed, and yes, I think an initiative bonus or a defensive casting bonus might definitely be possibilities. Advanced Learning is not replacing abilities - it's a straight replacement to the bonus spells offered by archetypes.

Blaster: I still think the general level 4 ability will be a bonus to monster identification, to aid with that specific concern. Red mages should be the masters of monstrous knowledge - can't kill something you don't know.

Buffer: Did you mean the moderate ability here? The lesser ability doesn't deal with adjacent targets. In any case, I meant adjacent to the red mage at the time of casting, since it's restricted to spells with touch.

Controller: Not quite sure what you meant by that. Controller's a bit less well defined than the other archetypes, I'm afraid - I want something that can still blast, but also manipulate the battlefield and opponents. Inflicting status effects seemed a way to do that. Whereas the blaster excels at single-target damage, the controller is less destructive but can keep his enemies corralled and docile.

Ok, Advanced learning works, then. I thought it was replacing abilities, not adding to them (and replacing the bonus spells known from archtype works perfectly well for me.)

No thoughts on the skills?

As long as they can identify people.

Yup, moderate ability, my bad.

Controllers only get status effects at level 6 right now. Before that, Grease, Glitterdust, Pyrokinetics, Slow and Ice Storm are the only even vaugely controlling elements, and of those Grease is the only one for level 1/2, Glitterdust/Pyrokinetics for 3/4, and then finally Slow/Ice Storm levels 5/6. So I support the idea of controlling the battlefield, but look at adding a handful more of spells that inflict status effects, or have the lesser archtype ability add status effects to damaging spells.

[Surrealistik]

Sounds good Gnorman, though I'd probably recommend dropping 'energy' and going for the more straightforward 'damage'. So:

"When casting any spell that deals acid, fire, electricity, or cold damage, the blaster may replace that spell's damage type(s) and their keywords with any one of these four."

In otherwords, you unambiguously replace all damage types of a triggering spell and the keywords of those damage types with exactly one of those four damage types. If keywords naturally arise from dealing damage of a certain type (I forget), then you can exclude that extra wording.




While you're revisiting the mages, I would strongly recommend you either replace Counterspell Mastery or improve it so that you can counter without readying at the cost of your Immediate Action and losing your next action of the type expended to cast the spell you countered, or your next Full-Round Action if it takes a Standard Action or longer to cast (whether you were successful or otherwise).

As it stands, counterspelling even with the 'silence' effect is pretty damn niche. I might even consider expanding it to deal with item cast spells and SLAs/Supernaturals that replicate spells.

[OzzyKP]

Anyone want a chance to join an ongoing game using Gnorman's E6 rules? It has been going since February and is a horror-themed medieval inter-dimensional campaign. We've got a fantastic DM and some great players, and we have two openings.

Say something here if you're interested:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272350


Ok, we discussed it some more, and yea, we are looking for new players to create new characters (using Gnorman's E6) and join the campaign.

[galan]

hello
is it ok with you if i take the parts i want from here to make a witcher-based game (not actually familiar with witcher, but a friend of mine is)?

i'll have to translate the entire thing to hebrew to do that, so i thought asking before doing that would be polite

[Cavelcade]

Hi everyone, I'm thinking of running an E6 game and I was wondering what have people's experience with Gnorman's E6 variant been? Initially it looks mostly positive, but I'm hestitant about jumping into it, the group (if it gets started) has only ever done D&D with a few non-core books.

[Gnorman]

Sorry folks, school started up again and my free time took a sharp nose dive. But I haven't abandoned the project!


Sounds good Gnorman, though I'd probably recommend dropping 'energy' and going for the more straightforward 'damage'. So:

"When casting any spell that deals acid, fire, electricity, or cold damage, the blaster may replace that spell's damage type(s) and their keywords with any one of these four."

In otherwords, you unambiguously replace all damage types of a triggering spell and the keywords of those damage types with exactly one of those four damage types. If keywords naturally arise from dealing damage of a certain type (I forget), then you can exclude that extra wording.

While you're revisiting the mages, I would strongly recommend you either replace Counterspell Mastery or improve it so that you can counter without readying at the cost of your Immediate Action and losing your next action of the type expended to cast the spell you countered, or your next Full-Round Action if it takes a Standard Action or longer to cast (whether you were successful or otherwise).

As it stands, counterspelling even with the 'silence' effect is pretty damn niche. I might even consider expanding it to deal with item cast spells and SLAs/Supernaturals that replicate spells.

Solid ideas. Counterspell Mastery is an ability I've wanted to upgrade/replace for a long time, likely in favor of an affect that improves enchantment/illusion spells.


hello
is it ok with you if i take the parts i want from here to make a witcher-based game (not actually familiar with witcher, but a friend of mine is)?

i'll have to translate the entire thing to hebrew to do that, so i thought asking before doing that would be polite

Go for it! Someone translated my work into Italian, so the precedent's been set.


Hi everyone, I'm thinking of running an E6 game and I was wondering what have people's experience with Gnorman's E6 variant been? Initially it looks mostly positive, but I'm hestitant about jumping into it, the group (if it gets started) has only ever done D&D with a few non-core books.

I can't speak for the experience portion of this (it would be a bit presumptuous of me) but I have tried to keep the system relatively close to core-only. The engineer and the hunter have subsystems that may be a bit complicated, and I might shy away from the psionic classes if your group has little or no experience with psionics. But generally, they should be pretty easy to pick up. The magic classes are probably easier for a new player than the wizard/druid/cleric, if only because you have less to keep track of, bookkeeping-wise.

[Cavelcade]

I can't speak for the experience portion of this (it would be a bit presumptuous of me) but I have tried to keep the system relatively close to core-only. The engineer and the hunter have subsystems that may be a bit complicated, and I might shy away from the psionic classes if your group has little or no experience with psionics. But generally, they should be pretty easy to pick up. The magic classes are probably easier for a new player than the wizard/druid/cleric, if only because you have less to keep track of, bookkeeping-wise.

Thanks for responding! That definitely sounds positive. In your experience, do the classes play well together? Do they feel around the same power level when they're in play? By that, I don't mean do they feel the same all the time, but do they all get times to shine and (if possible) never have a feeling of uselessness?

If I do decide to use this, I'll try to start a campaign journal on this forum to keep track of my experiences. Thanks for all this work!

[Gnorman]

Thanks for responding! That definitely sounds positive. In your experience, do the classes play well together? Do they feel around the same power level when they're in play? By that, I don't mean do they feel the same all the time, but do they all get times to shine and (if possible) never have a feeling of uselessness?

If I do decide to use this, I'll try to start a campaign journal on this forum to keep track of my experiences. Thanks for all this work!

I can't speak from personal experience, because I don't typically run games. One of my major design goals was to lower the ceiling for casters and raise the floor for mundanes, though. Hopefully I succeeded, at least partially - other posters might be able to give you some perspective on that.

[Mithril Leaf]

Hey Gnorman, does the Inventor get bonus inventions based off a high ability score? Do the mages for that matter? If no, it might be worth consider.

[Gnorman]

Hey Gnorman, does the Inventor get bonus inventions based off a high ability score? Do the mages for that matter? If no, it might be worth consider.

No, and I have no plans to change that - the Engineer is already officially Really Good (at least according to the data I've seen thrown out). It's the closest thing to a prepared caster in the project, so I believe it needs to be reined in a bit. Limiting inventions per day is my way of doing so.

[Zovc]

Hey Gnorman, I'm starting work on my own E6-geared campaign. I'm doing a lot of development and whatnot for it, and I'm borrowing a lot from you. It's possible I won't borrow any specific content, but I'm certainly borrowing mechanics like Archetypes and their advancement milestones.

I noticed you don't yet have a martial adept designed in your compendium yet, and I'm actually starting work on two of my own. A Sublime Warrior, who is the token ToB combat class, and a more hybrid, skill-based, Swordsage-inspired class.

I've hardly played with ToB (I mean, I have, but those characters didn't "last" very long...), so I'm open to any guidance and suggestions--especially regarding maneuvers/stances known/readied. Also, would you tweak the level intervals for maneuvers any if converting to E6?

[Baniff]

Hey Gnorman, I'm starting work on my own E6-geared campaign. I'm doing a lot of development and whatnot for it, and I'm borrowing a lot from you. It's possible I won't borrow any specific content, but I'm certainly borrowing mechanics like Archetypes and their advancement milestones.

I noticed you don't yet have a martial adept designed in your compendium yet, and I'm actually starting work on two of my own. A Sublime Warrior, who is the token ToB combat class, and a more hybrid, skill-based, Swordsage-inspired class.

I've hardly played with ToB (I mean, I have, but those characters didn't "last" very long...), so I'm open to any guidance and suggestions--especially regarding maneuvers/stances known/readied. Also, would you tweak the level intervals for maneuvers any if converting to E6?


Actually, there was an Initiator archetype for each combat class. Gnorman took them out because they are inherently stronger than non-initiators. Although if someone has them saved somewhere, they could still be helpful for people who want to use them

[Blueiji]

Actually, there was an Initiator archetype for each combat class. Gnorman took them out because they are inherently stronger than non-initiators. Although if someone has them saved somewhere, they could still be helpful for people who want to use them

Those archetypes are still in the compendium, they're just not sorted with the base classes they correlate too. You can find the initiator archetypes in the tenth post, under a spoiler tag. They're easy to miss.

[Mithril Leaf]

Hey Gnorman, if you intend for the Generic Classes to be playable, remove the stacking phrase from the Rogue Artificer Archtype. When you say cost reducers stack with other cost reducers, you start this big ugly mess where if you have that ability and a +5 Int bonus and 4 feats to invest in Extraordinary Artisan, Legendary Artisan, and a pair of Magical Artisans, things cost 8 hours to make. Just 8 hours. If you just say the cost is reduced, then normal cost reduction rules apply and you end up with the maximum potential from the ability being a 55% reduction in final price if you invest a whole ton of resources into Intelligence (assuming you only can use the Compendium races).

Also, quick question, does the Demonologist Black Mage archtype use the Undead control pool for rebuked outsiders, or a separate pool?

[Gnorman]

Hey Gnorman, I'm starting work on my own E6-geared campaign. I'm doing a lot of development and whatnot for it, and I'm borrowing a lot from you. It's possible I won't borrow any specific content, but I'm certainly borrowing mechanics like Archetypes and their advancement milestones.

I noticed you don't yet have a martial adept designed in your compendium yet, and I'm actually starting work on two of my own. A Sublime Warrior, who is the token ToB combat class, and a more hybrid, skill-based, Swordsage-inspired class.

I've hardly played with ToB (I mean, I have, but those characters didn't "last" very long...), so I'm open to any guidance and suggestions--especially regarding maneuvers/stances known/readied. Also, would you tweak the level intervals for maneuvers any if converting to E6?


Actually, there was an Initiator archetype for each combat class. Gnorman took them out because they are inherently stronger than non-initiators. Although if someone has them saved somewhere, they could still be helpful for people who want to use them


Those archetypes are still in the compendium, they're just not sorted with the base classes they correlate too. You can find the initiator archetypes in the tenth post, under a spoiler tag. They're easy to miss.

All good here? Seems like Blueiji's solved the issue. But I will go ahead and move those archetypes into a more obvious place, as this is not an uncommon question.

As far as a base class goes, I'm certainly not opposed to it! There is probably enough conceptual space to get two, maybe even three classes out of it. I suppose one could consolidate it into a single class, but that may be too much of an oversimplification.

I wouldn't tweak the maneuver progression much at all, beyond possibly making a sort of "Capstone Maneuver" ability that allows the once-a-day use of a 4th-level maneuver. If I've already opened the door to 4th-level spells (something I honestly consider changing!), it seems fair.


Hey Gnorman, if you intend for the Generic Classes to be playable, remove the stacking phrase from the Rogue Artificer Archtype. When you say cost reducers stack with other cost reducers, you start this big ugly mess where if you have that ability and a +5 Int bonus and 4 feats to invest in Extraordinary Artisan, Legendary Artisan, and a pair of Magical Artisans, things cost 8 hours to make. Just 8 hours. If you just say the cost is reduced, then normal cost reduction rules apply and you end up with the maximum potential from the ability being a 55% reduction in final price if you invest a whole ton of resources into Intelligence (assuming you only can use the Compendium races).

Also, quick question, does the Demonologist Black Mage archtype use the Undead control pool for rebuked outsiders, or a separate pool?

1. The artificer archetype (and generic classes in general) are basically just a big ol' mess that I kind of ignore. But you make a good case for at least taking the time to axe that particular ability.

2. I assume it would get a separate pool, including separate restrictions on use. Isn't that how the cleric domains that offer alternative options handle it? The wording is admittedly unclear and I will correct it. Perhaps the Demonologist should rebuke outsiders INSTEAD of undead, as opposed to IN ADDITION TO, but that may seem unnecessarily punitive. I think outsiders probably see less action in E6 than undead (~80 evil outsiders with a CR of 10 or less; ~100 undead).

[Mithril Leaf]

I'm currently working on a good old fashioned Halfling Fleshraker Beastmaster build, and I am now noticing that the racial weapon are martial ability of the halfling is (in official D&D) 100% useless since there are actually no weapons at all with halfling in the name. Might I possibly recommend adding Talenta weapons, or possibly the skiprock and war sling? Even both wouldn't be too much really.

EDIT: Also, would you use the Deadly Aim ability have you replace Str or augment it with your Dexterity when using a sling? My gut says to treat them as thrown weapons.

[Gnorman]

I'm currently working on a good old fashioned Halfling Fleshraker Beastmaster build, and I am now noticing that the racial weapon are martial ability of the halfling is (in official D&D) 100% useless since there are actually no weapons at all with halfling in the name. Might I possibly recommend adding Talenta weapons, or possibly the skiprock and war sling? Even both wouldn't be too much really.

EDIT: Also, would you use the Deadly Aim ability have you replace Str or augment it with your Dexterity when using a sling? My gut says to treat them as thrown weapons.

1. That's a good point. To be fair, only the orc, gnome, and dwarf get advantages from the ability in core D&D - there are no "elven" weapons in the SRD. It's probably just not a very good ability in general.

2. Deadly Aim replaces the strength bonus when using thrown weapons. If you have a higher Strength, you can stick with it - I just wanted to give an option for low Strength users (such as halflings). Given that composite bow users would get the advantages of both, this may unfairly disadvantage thrown weapons users.

High (16) STR, mediocre (12) DEX with thrown weapon: +1 to hit, +3 to damage.
High STR, mediocre DEX with composite longbow: +1 to hit, +4 to damage

Mediocre (12) STR, high (16) DEX with thrown weapon: +3 to hit, +3 to damage
Mediocre STR, high DEX with composite longbow: +3 to hit, +4 to damage

It's not a huge difference, but the attack roll keys off of DEX either way. I suppose it incentivizes high DEX hunters, with a bit of strength if you can afford it (and use a composite bow). It's mostly a wash, but for consistency's sake I can see your point.

[Mithril Leaf]

A few more things I'd like to bring up.

The esoteric only has 2 skill points per level, but they aren't Intelligence based casters
If you're planning on removing all the Generic Classes, who the hell is going to make magic items? Especially with all casters being fixed list, there's a notable lack of spells that are needed to make some good items.
The Demiurge's middle two powers and most of their Archetype Powers kinda suck. Might I possibly recommend granting them Psicrystal affinity as a bonus feat?
Building on the second point, since you split half the artificer off into the engineer, maybe split the other half off into another class? Perhaps one focused on creating permanent magical effects, with each Archetype focused on a different type of item, with the capstone being able to make items with a CL of 9th in their specialty. A psionic version would be a simple cut and paste.

[Gnorman]

A few more things I'd like to bring up.

The esoteric only has 2 skill points per level, but they aren't Intelligence based casters
If you're planning on removing all the Generic Classes, who the hell is going to make magic items? Especially with all casters being fixed list, there's a notable lack of spells that are needed to make some good items.
The Demiurge's middle two powers and most of their Archetype Powers kinda suck. Might I possibly recommend granting them Psicrystal affinity as a bonus feat?
Building on the second point, since you split half the artificer off into the engineer, maybe split the other half off into another class? Perhaps one focused on creating permanent magical effects, with each Archetype focused on a different type of item, with the capstone being able to make items with a CL of 9th in their specialty. A psionic version would be a simple cut and paste.



I haven't always based skill points on whether or not the casting was based on Intelligence - usually, I tried to make a direct translation from the base class. So historically, I gave cleric-types low skill points. Considering that I bumped the White Mage up to 4, though, doing the same for the Esoteric seems fair.
The magewright?
The Esoteric in general (and most of its associated archetypes) kind of suck, to be fair. It's due for a revamp.
I think I'll probably refrain from making an artificer, seeing as it's a base class not based on OGL content. And I might try to back off of the whole "gaming the item creation" theme, as it might run counter to some of the goals of E6.

[Scholar23]

hEY THERE WOULD THIS WORK FOR THE WARDEN ACHTYPE IN THE HUNTER CLASS.

Warden
Lesser Archetype Power: An Warden gains the ability to cast a small number of spells from the green mage's spell list, as outlined in the table below. In all respects, an Warden casts spells just as a Green mage would, though he may ignore the arcane spell failure chance of all armor and shields. In addition, an Warden's class features key off of Wisdom instead of Charisma.

Moderate Archetype Power: Starting at 3rd level, a warden leaves no trail in natural surroundings and cannot be tracked. She may choose to leave a trail if so desired.
Greater Archetype Power: A warden of 6th level can use the Hide skill in any sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesn’t grant cover or concealment.

Spells Per Day

Level
0
1
2

1st 2 - -
2nd 3 0* -
3rd 3 1 -
4th 3 2 0*
5th 3 3 1
6th 3 3 2


* provided that the warden has a high enough Wisdom score to have a bonus spell of that level

[Mithril Leaf]

When reworking the bonus spells, might I suggest the inclusion of something akin to the Signature Spell ability of the generic mage? It's still limited to 4th level spells (which aren't the craziest around) while giving you the ability to pick your capstone with a bit more fidelity.

[Gnorman]

hEY THERE WOULD THIS WORK FOR THE WARDEN ACHTYPE IN THE HUNTER CLASS.

Warden
Lesser Archetype Power: An Warden gains the ability to cast a small number of spells from the green mage's spell list, as outlined in the table below. In all respects, an Warden casts spells just as a Green mage would, though he may ignore the arcane spell failure chance of all armor and shields. In addition, an Warden's class features key off of Wisdom instead of Charisma.

Moderate Archetype Power: Starting at 3rd level, a warden leaves no trail in natural surroundings and cannot be tracked. She may choose to leave a trail if so desired.
Greater Archetype Power: A warden of 6th level can use the Hide skill in any sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesn’t grant cover or concealment.

Spells Per Day

Level
0
1
2

1st 2 - -
2nd 3 0* -
3rd 3 1 -
4th 3 2 0*
5th 3 3 1
6th 3 3 2


* provided that the warden has a high enough Wisdom score to have a bonus spell of that level


Well, it certainly would work. I'm not thrilled by the moderate and greater archetype power, but if you're going Warden, you're probably doing it for the spell access.


When reworking the bonus spells, might I suggest the inclusion of something akin to the Signature Spell ability of the generic mage? It's still limited to 4th level spells (which aren't the craziest around) while giving you the ability to pick your capstone with a bit more fidelity.

Yes, I'm probably going to just make it like Advanced Learning (or eliminate 4th-level spells entirely - not quite made my mind up on that yet).

Also in the works in the next few days: a new class combining the best aspects of the Zealot and the Sentinel.

[Gnorman]

As promised, albeit in WIP form, here's the new paladin. Combining the active defense mechanics of the Sentinel with the passive group buffs of the Zealot, the Paladin should be an able replacement for either. I've always felt that both the Zealot and the Sentinel were a little narrow, design-wise, and would be better served as a combined class. The class focuses on healing, buffing, and defending their allies and punishing foes when they attack those allies. As such, they'll be getting the familiar "give cover to your allies" mechanics from the Sentinel, as well as auras that heal and ward allies. The Paladin will be able to shrug off mighty blows, and deliver punishing attacks of opportunity when opponents attempt to attack his allies. Primary statistics will be Strength, Constitution, and Charisma, so it should be significantly less MAD than the 3.5 version. I have yet to create archetypes, but I imagine you will see a Templar-type (primarily defensive: can protect allies from hostile spells, spell resistance, etc.), a Cavalier-type (primarily offensive: bonuses when attacking fiends, dragons, the undead), and an Initiate-type (primarily supportive: bonuses to auras and healing, possible spellcasting). Let me know what you think!


The Paladin

HD: d12
Class Skills: Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Heal, Jump, Knowledge (history), Knowledge (local) Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Knowledge (religion), Listen, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim
Skill Points: 4 + Int per level (4x at 1st)

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|Auras Known

1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Archetype Power (Lesser), Bonus Feat, Peerless Defender|-

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+3|Combat Endurance, Intervention, Project Aura|1

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|Archetype Power (Moderate), Determination|1

4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|Martyrdom, Unassailable|2

5th|+5|+4|+1|+4|Bonus Feat, Retributive Strike|2

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5|Archetype Power (Greater), Knight Errant|3[/table]

Proficiencies: The Paladin is proficient with light, medium, and heavy armor, as well as all shields (including tower shields). He is proficient with all simple and martial weapons.

Archetype: At 1st level, the Paladin chooses an archetype from the list below. He gains the advantages and abilities of the archetype at the appropriate levels, as indicated in the list. Once made, this choice is final.

Bonus Feat At 1st level, and again at 5th level, the Paladin gains a bonus fighter feat. He counts as a fighter of his own level for the purposes of selecting feats. Once every 24 hours, the Paladin may swap out his current bonus feat(s) for any other that he qualifies for.

Peerless Defender:

Combat Endurance: The Paladin may make an additional number of attacks of opportunity equal to his Constitution bonus. In addition, the Paladin may no longer be flanked or caught flat-footed.

Intervention: The Paladin may make an attack of opportunity against an opponent he threatens when that opponent attacks an ally of the Paladin. This attack of opportunity resolves before the opponent's attack on the ally.

Project Aura:

Determination: The Paladin gains damage reduction X/-, where X is equal to his Constitution modifier or his class level, whichever is lower.

Martyrdom: If an opponent successfully attacks an ally adjacent to the Paladin, the Paladin may choose to have any damage resulting from that attack redirected to himself.

Unassailable:

Retributive Strike: The Paladin deals additional divine damage (which is not subject to damage reduction) on any attack to opponents who have attacked (either in melee or at range) an ally of the Paladin within the last round. This bonus damage is equal to the Paladin's Charisma bonus plus his class level. This bonus damage applies even if the opponent misses the ally.

Knight Errant:

[Gnorman]

Toying around with another idea for a new base class: how would you folks feel about a shapeshifting barbarian warrior? I know that shapeshifting is more the purview of the druid-type, but to me, the combat abilities involved seem to really favor adding it to a barbarian. Perhaps it would work only as a specialized archetype, but I thought I'd kick it around and see the response. At any rate, I really would like to add a dedicated Barbarian class, as I've always felt that's a gaping hole in the compendium.

Taking a cue from the Shapeshift Druid ACF, a Shapeshifter archetype might get a wolf form at level 1, an eagle form at level 3, and a bear form at level 6.

This would mean that the Green Mage loses shapeshifting, though it would gain an appropriate ability to compensate it, perhaps in the form of better summoning, better buffing, or some kind of spirit animal power.

Thoughts?

[Eldest]

Toying around with another idea for a new base class: how would you folks feel about a shapeshifting barbarian warrior? I know that shapeshifting is more the purview of the druid-type, but to me, the combat abilities involved seem to really favor adding it to a barbarian. Perhaps it would work only as a specialized archetype, but I thought I'd kick it around and see the response. At any rate, I really would like to add a dedicated Barbarian class, as I've always felt that's a gaping hole in the compendium.

Taking a cue from the Shapeshift Druid ACF, a Shapeshifter archetype might get a wolf form at level 1, an eagle form at level 3, and a bear form at level 6.

This would mean that the Green Mage loses shapeshifting, though it would gain an appropriate ability to compensate it, perhaps in the form of better summoning, better buffing, or some kind of spirit animal power.

Thoughts?

I would like to see that sort of thing, yes. I'd actually be interested in seeing what sort of abilities that you give the Green Mage and the new class.

One possible balance concern, level 3 flight might be iffy. It might be a good idea to have secondary benifits at higher level (e.g. level 1 you get wolf form and a bite attack, level 3 or 6 you get the effects of improved trip while in wolf form). Food for thought.

[Mr Tumnus]

Could have sworn that at one point a number of these classes gained martial maneuvers and stances ala tome of battle. Was there a massive change made to the compendium recently?

[Eldest]

Could have sworn that at one point a number of these classes gained martial maneuvers and stances ala tome of battle. Was there a massive change made to the compendium recently?

He changed it so you only needed the SRD to play it. This was a while back.

[Actana]

Could have sworn that at one point a number of these classes gained martial maneuvers and stances ala tome of battle. Was there a massive change made to the compendium recently?

Those archetypes can still be found in the Alternative Classes post under Initiator Archetypes. I believe that they were removed due to the reason Eldest gave above, to make the compendium a bit easier to use.

[Gnorman]

Those archetypes can still be found in the Alternative Classes post under Initiator Archetypes. I believe that they were removed due to the reason Eldest gave above, to make the compendium a bit easier to use.

They were removed for two reasons: (1) as Eldest said, to promote accessibility by removing non-SRD content, and (2) because the initiator archetypes were so far and away BETTER than the other archetypes that there really was no reason to take anything else. They are preserved for posterity under the Alternate Classes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13624562&postcount=10) post, but were kind of hidden at the bottom. I've made the title easier to see.

[darklink_shadow]

Hey, Gnorman. The sawbone archetype of the engineer is fun.

[FinnDarkblade]

I have a question about the Warden archetype for the Hunter. It says how many spells per day it gets but now what spells it knows and/or what list it casts from. Sorry if it's in one of these pages, it's just hard to read through pages of forum on a phone.

[Gnorman]

I have a question about the Warden archetype for the Hunter. It says how many spells per day it gets but now what spells it knows and/or what list it casts from. Sorry if it's in one of these pages, it's just hard to read through pages of forum on a phone.

The Warden archetype is FAR from complete, and likely to be axed in upcoming revisions. But it is intended to draw from the Green Mage list.

[fireinthedust]

New to this thread, but liking much of what I see.

Human: Not liking how they change skills every 24 hours. At least not across the board. I don't see it work all human characters, and they shouldn't be able to "forget" a skill entirely, or suddenly "master" one (ie: can't suddenly not have any Profession ranks, when they can suddenly play a heck of a Lute), they shouldn't be able to reduce a skill to less than 1 rank.



Hyborean: I like the idea of an offensive Blue mage. They need some kind of blunt offense archetype, though I understand the idea is to go with the idea of the M:tG Blue mages. That said, I'm sure Blue has ice in it...


Also: have you thought of a Disenchanting Blue Mage? I know they already have Dispel Magic, but are there other spells that they could have? Also, I'm thinking Shield is as reasonable as Mage Armor, if only because of the idea of a floating Aegis protecting them from harm. It's a spell of defense!


I'd love to play a game based on M:tG, and this is the best attempt at creating a system that would work for that I've seen. Great job!

I didn't read the entire thread, but has anyone done a serious Gnorman M:tG game?

[Eldest]

New to this thread, but liking much of what I see.

Human: Not liking how they change skills every 24 hours. At least not across the board. I don't see it work all human characters, and they shouldn't be able to "forget" a skill entirely, or suddenly "master" one (ie: can't suddenly not have any Profession ranks, when they can suddenly play a heck of a Lute), they shouldn't be able to reduce a skill to less than 1 rank.



Hyborean: I like the idea of an offensive Blue mage. They need some kind of blunt offense archetype, though I understand the idea is to go with the idea of the M:tG Blue mages. That said, I'm sure Blue has ice in it...


Also: have you thought of a Disenchanting Blue Mage? I know they already have Dispel Magic, but are there other spells that they could have? Also, I'm thinking Shield is as reasonable as Mage Armor, if only because of the idea of a floating Aegis protecting them from harm. It's a spell of defense!


I'd love to play a game based on M:tG, and this is the best attempt at creating a system that would work for that I've seen. Great job!

I didn't read the entire thread, but has anyone done a serious Gnorman M:tG game?

Um... you realize that E6 and the Planeswalkers are on entirely different levels of power, right?

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189767)'s another project, meant to be used with gestalt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm) rules.

[fireinthedust]

Um... you realize that E6 and the Planeswalkers are on entirely different levels of power, right?


Buh-wuuuuuh?! (mind=blown!) :smalltongue:

Seriously though: yes, obviously they are, but who said anything about Planeswalkers? The cards of M:tG assume a setting/settings with flavour based around different colors, and have things like spellcasters and monsters. In creating those settings, Gnorman's designs would be fantastic.

I mean, if I was going to be true to form, I'd have the Planeswalkers Gestalted to 20th level, then have the non-Planeswalkers running around in Gnorman's E6... And I could see that working pretty well, too, actually.

(and neat link, btw, I don't usually check Homebrew forums on sites. Thanks!)

[fireinthedust]

Is Gnorman's E6 based on Pathfinder or 3.5?

I'm thinking 3.5, due to the Combat classes.

And is there a creation primer for the differences in character creation? I want to make sure I'm not missing anything, and there are a lot of minor changes.

[Eldest]

Is Gnorman's E6 based on Pathfinder or 3.5?

I'm thinking 3.5, due to the Combat classes.

And is there a creation primer for the differences in character creation? I want to make sure I'm not missing anything, and there are a lot of minor changes.

3.5, and what are you used to?

[fireinthedust]

For character creation? Roll stats, pick a race, add the class.

What's getting me is the Capstone abilities: do those get bought as Feats, or automatically achieved when they reach 6th level?

That and whether I could just use the Combat classes alongside regular classes, like fighter and barbarian, and have them get as much benefit.


I like the Mage classes (colors), the Dragon, and I think I like the Combat and Skilled classes (specifically: Scoundrel and Poet, the rogue and bard re-skins). I like the Generic classes, and may suggest them as options (minus the magic ones, unless they could work somehow with the colored mages).

Thing is, I'm thinking of doing a pbp, and creating a quick list of the classes/races/architypes that would work for it. I'd be basing it around M:tG themes, though perhaps only for the supernatural. Bits from the various sets, at least, but set into a new world I'm working on.


Gnorman: would it be alright, if I can get the time to do this, if I put together a PDF of the info I'd want for my own setting? Like, the races, classes, etc. from this document that I'd be using?


THOUGHTS ON THE SYSTEM (from reading some more)

Noble I'd tweek so they get the Leadership feat at second level; or something like it, where they get NPC-class minions (warriors, experts, etc.) that follow them around in the same way PCs get animal companions. "summoning" any humanoid out of thin air is... well, seems more magical than a mundane noble should be able to do. I don't know if Leadership would be too powerful, but maybe basing it off Animal Companion would work?

[D-naras]

...
Noble I'd tweek so they get the Leadership feat at second level; or something like it, where they get NPC-class minions (warriors, experts, etc.) that follow them around in the same way PCs get animal companions. "summoning" any humanoid out of thin air is... well, seems more magical than a mundane noble should be able to do. I don't know if Leadership would be too powerful, but maybe basing it off Animal Companion would work?

I had proposed an idea for a Courtier archetype in another Gnorman E6 inspired homebrew thread. It's big thing was a free bodyguard minion. Check it out:


Courtier
Courtiers are the problem solvers(or makers) of the political arena. They are masters of getting what they want by using their honeyed words and their silver tongues, even stopping aggresion momentarily. Of course, politics are dangerous so all courtiers eventually seek out protection in the form of a loyal bodyguard, both to ensure their survival, and to increase their prestige in court.

Prerequisites: Courtier is available to any Skillful class.
Archetype Skills: A Courtier gains Diplomacy and Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) as a class skill if he does not already possess it.
Archetype Proficiencies: A Courtier gains proficiency with the Rapier and Buckler.

Archetype Features

Lesser Archetype Power


Social Graces (Ex): Courtiers gain a competence bonus of 2 + 1/2 their level on all Diplomacy checks. Whenever the Courtier is making a Bluff, Gather Information, Intimidate or Knowledge(Nobility and Royalty) check, he may instead roll Diplomacy with a -5 penalty.


Sancrosant (Ex): When the Courtier is attacked in melee by an opponent with an inteligence score of at least 3, he may roll Diplomacy as an immediate action with a DC of 10+the attacker's Hit Dice+the attacker's Base Attack Bonus+5 if the attacker is chaotic or -5 if the attacker is lawful.
If he beats the DC, the attacker immediately ends his turn, without attacking the Courtier and doesn't threaten any square until the beginning of his next turn. This ability can be used only once per opponent per battle.


Moderate Archetype Power


Bodyguard (Ex): Accomplished Courtiers are either assigned, or attract bodyguards to help them in court and protect them in battle. Thankfully these bodyguards are moderetaly competent in social situations and they add weight to a Courtiers words when they are with their charge.
You gain a companion of the same race and alignment as you, with a Strength, Dexterity and Constitution score of 14 and an Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma score of 10 before racial modifications. The companion has good base attack bonus, fortitude and will saves, d10 hit dice and 5 ranks in Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Spot and Listen. The bodyguard has 1+1/2 the Courtiers level in hit dice. The Courtier is responsible for the bodyguard's equipment, and he must provide it himself. If the bodyguard dies, a new one will appear within 2 days if the Courtier is in an urban area, or a week after the Courtier sends out word of the loss.
Finally, whenever the bodyguard is adjacent to his Courtier, the Courtier automaticaly enjoys a +2 in all Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate and Sense Motive rolls used in social situations as if the bodyguard used Aid Another.

Greater Archetype Power


Master of the Courts (Ex): A Courtier may take 10 on any Diplomacy roll, even when using his Lesser Archetype Powers.

[fireinthedust]

I had proposed an idea for a Courtier archetype in another Gnorman E6 inspired homebrew thread. It's big thing was a free bodyguard minion. Check it out:


Courtier


Very cool!

So at 3rd level he gets a henchman?

[Gnorman]

Very cool!

So at 3rd level he gets a henchman?

The Tyrant archetype also gets a more substantial henchman at 3rd level. Perhaps it should be expanded to the entire Noble class as a whole?

[fireinthedust]

instead of the summon minion ability, yeah.

I suggest the charismatic hero talents from d20 Modern. Inspire buffs to others would fit a leader.

dunno if that would fit noble for you, but i'd do it

[Eldest]

For character creation? Roll stats, pick a race, add the class.

What's getting me is the Capstone abilities: do those get bought as Feats, or automatically achieved when they reach 6th level?

That and whether I could just use the Combat classes alongside regular classes, like fighter and barbarian, and have them get as much benefit.

This is meant to be instead of any other class, due to these having a much higher power level.

[fireinthedust]

I know from regular E6 you get Capstones if you didn't Multiclass. However, I'm not sure *when* you get them: right away, or only after 20 feats?

And there's mention of "Epic Destinies" but no explanation section for that (just the 20 feats bit, iirc). Are these the same as Capstones?

[fireinthedust]

Tyrant: Meh, not in love with the minion summoning, and the Toxic bit, iirc. I forget why. Just having that cohort should be good, but that has to be 3rd level; so what to replace the 1st level ability with?


GENERIC vs GNORMAN: Do the Generic classes you wrote up balance against the Combat/Skilled classes? Like, is the Rogue/Bard equal to the Poet?

Or at least: are they expected to not be used together? I'd like to offer the Generics as an option, or at least the Archetypes of Barbarian, Bard, Ranger, etc. tacked on to the Gladiator, Poet, Hunter, etc.

Is it recommended? Or were they designed to be separate?

[Surrealistik]

Honestly, I think the Tyrant is one of the very best or at least appealing pieces of design in the entire thing, though the Unstable Scout template seems to be a no brainer choice to be entirely honest, and the Assassin/Saboteur have uninteresting overlaps with their death attack.

Personally I think the Assassin should just be given poison weapons (weak low DC poison obviously) and Stealth bonuses/ranks, while the Volatile Saboteur's firebombs/death blast (which should do more damage IMO) should set stuff on fire with a Reflex save negating the ignition.


Oh, one question about the minions Gnorman: do they have to be prefab stat blocks from the MM?

[OzzyKP]

The Tyrant archetype also gets a more substantial henchman at 3rd level. Perhaps it should be expanded to the entire Noble class as a whole?

I definitely agree with this. Far more plausible and interesting than conjuring a minion out of thin air. Plus, as a noble, they should have access to a good number of servants and hirelings from their family/tribe/warband.

Perhaps some requirement that if their henchman dies, they have to get back in contact with their family/warband to get a new one.

[Surrealistik]

I definitely agree with this. Far more plausible and interesting than conjuring a minion out of thin air. Plus, as a noble, they should have access to a good number of servants and hirelings from their family/tribe/warband.

Perhaps some requirement that if their henchman dies, they have to get back in contact with their family/warband to get a new one.

The minion wasn't conjured out of thin air it was just... in hiding, waiting for his signal. :smalltongue:

TBH, I'm not at all a fan of how the minion and henchman are mutually exclusive; I would much rather prefer to be able to have both minions and a henchman fielded with the caveat that the henchman counts towards the limit of the total number of active minions simultaneously out at one time, and conjuring/retaining one expends say ~5 minions worth of summonings per day.

[The Anarresti]

Thoughts on the Chaos Child, Shapeshifting in General, and a Suggestion for the Red Mage Spell List, with some Concrete Ideas and Proposals
in which the author, The Anarresti, sidesteps the current conversation so as to provide Gnorman with thoughts on the aforementioned topic, with some concrete suggestions and options, etc, etc.


Firstly, sorry if the odd formatting is of-putting, but I think that it does indeed make this post's declared intent more readable.

Anyway, to cut the point, I'd like to say that I have a soft spot for shape-shifting. It's cool to use, promotes player creativity and ingenuity, and, most importantly, it's a signature, cinematic ability that almost all magic users in almost all folktales around the world possess. The only problem is, historically, D&D hasn't been the best about making mechanics for it. I think you've done a great job with this E6 compendium (in fact, I'm starting up an IRL game using it, if you don't mind), especially with making lots of cool, very flavorful abilities, but that a player's options for shapeshifting are still pretty slim.

I'll start with what, in my option, needs the most work: the Chaos Child. I love the concept (a shapeshifting battle mage who specializes in altering her own body in weird ways), but there are a couple problems.

1. Firstly, that Magic Fang, which the Chaos Child receives as an archetype spell, is useless without a natural weapon to modify.
2. That the Lesser Archetype Power is useless when a 1st or 2nd level Chaos Child cannot cast any polymorph spells (unless Enlarge Person is considered a polymorph spell).
3. The Polymorph spell itself is kinda nutty, but there are plenty of other options available out there in established homebrew.

Anyway, in order to bring the apparent concept of the Chaos Child in closer concert with the actual mechanics, I propose the following:


Chaos Child

Bonus Spells:
1: Bite of the Wolf (as the psionic power), Magic Fang.
2: Monster Shape, Spider Climb
3: Gaseous Form, Greater Magic Fang
Capstone SLA: Anthromorph

The Monster Shape spell is adapted by me from the Giant's Alter spell, which can be found on this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172910) page. Anthromorph can be found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9606712&postcount=3), and is almost the same as "Polymorph (monstrous humanoids or giants only)

Monster Shape
Transmutation (polymorph)
Level: Chaos Child 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 0 ft
Target: You
Duration: 10 min/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You alter the surface features of your own body, molding it like clay. You need not limit your alterations to what would your natural range of choices; indeed, you may alter your appearance so dramatically (within the guidelines presented below) that it appears to be a member of another species entirely--even a species that does not exist! You must stay within the general range of the creature's type, however; you cannot make a human look exactly like a bear, for example, but you could make him look like a bear-like humanoid, even if you have no knowledge of such a humanoid race existing.

You may change the target's coloration, skin texture, facial features, or other topographical details as you wish. You may lengthen or shorten their hair, or cause the appearance of hair or fur to grow where it did not before. You may increase or decrease their height slightly, as long as they remain within the same size class. You may cause them to gain or lose body fat or muscle, making up to 25% heavier or lighter, although doing no confers no aditional strength or constitution bonus or penalty (your lesser archetype power, however, still applies). You may appear to be of the opposite gender, or of no gender. You can even appear to have additional limbs, such as a tail or wings or an extra arm, but they cannot be used (or even moved) by the subject unless they normally possess such a limb. You may not create additional working hands from feet or other limbs, nor can you reduce the number of limbs on the creature, nor may you make any changes to your skeleton or internal organs at all.

When you shift, pick a number of the following abilities equal to your caster level.
20 ft. climb speed
20ft swim speed (does not allow breathing under water)
Natural Amor bonus equal to your (improved) Constitution Modifier
A natural weapon of your choice, dealing 1d6+Str Modifier (can be picked up to 3 times)
+10 ft bonus to your base land speed
+10 Circumstance Bonus on Jump Checks


Any worn equipment melds into your own body.

Monster Shape counts as a disguise on the target creature, and grants +6 shapechanging bonus and a +4 circumstance bonus to your Disguise check. You may alter a creature that has been granted the Polymorphed template, but note that alter cannot change a creature's size or fundamental structure, so that you cannot anthromorph oneself into a troll and then use alter to appear human. A true seeing spell reveals the target's natural appearance.

Material Component: A tiny lump of blue clay.


Moving forward, I would really like to work on a refined version of some of the above things for the Chaos Child, as well as working on a Blue Mage archetype for the tricksy, shapeshifting wizard.

Additionally, what do you think about the following idea: a limited repertoire of alternate forms for the Green Mage? This is to say, that instead of shifting into any animal (within boundaries) at any time, a Green Mage would gain a number of specific alternate forms within those boundaries, equal to their G.M. level. E.g., a 2nd level Green Mage could, for example, have a wolf and an owl alternate form, and then once he levels to 3rd, he would pick an animal of 3 HD, mammal or bird, to have as a third alternate form. I feel like it would make the Green Mage a little more balanced, and a lot more flavorful, and would both differentiate Green Mage shapeshifting from other shapeshifting and would give individual players more options with which to customize their characters. (Also, I think it would be cool if the Green Mage's shapeshifting did NOT affect their clothing or equipment, just to underline the nature of the power.)

Lastly, as an aside having to do with the Red Mage's spell list, I think that a magic version of the psychic warrior spell Call Weaponry would make a fantastic addition to that spell list.

[Eldest]

The one issue I might have with that version would be that you get both Magic Fang and Greater Magic Fang. The latter kinda defeats the purpose of the former.

[Gnorman]

GAH! I seem to have accidentally deleted this post's content.

My salient points:

- Capstones are automatically attained at level 6, not additional feat requirements.

- Generic and non-generic classes might be usable side-by-side, but be careful of redundant or conflicting abilities. They were not intended for simultaneous use and may have unintended bugs.

- Noble minions are a bit of a narrative cheat, may require suspension of disbelief. Surrealistik, I managed to skip over one of your questions, which I will answer now: prefab stat blocks from the MM was my intention, yes.

- Tyrant may become a separate class

- The Annaresti: thanks for the input, will consider all your suggestions.

[Surrealistik]

A tyrant template that buffs and fortifies his minions with fear (and perhaps debuffs enemies with the same) would be pretty badass; definitely looking forward to this. That said, I do hope you keep the henchman and capstone in some form.

[fireinthedust]

Was thinking about the Noble:

Level 1: Inspire: Noble can spend a round to buff an ally: Full action: give one ally per level a +1 bonus (per level) to a single attack, skill check or saving throw. This is +2 at 2nd level, +3 at 3rd, +4 at 4th, +5 at 5th, +6 at 6th. (maybe that should be +1 per two levels, so +2 at 3rd, +3 at 5th?)

Level 2: Entourage: Noble gets one Minion per point of Charisma bonus, plus one per level. Minions are 1st level Peasants or Experts. The Noble can sacrifice one Minion to take an attack that would have hit them, as a free action. The Noble takes no damage, but the Minion is killed. The Minion can be ordered by the Noble to attack and move during combat, as a Minor action.

Level 3: The Noble gains the benefit of a Cohort, whose level is 1/2 the Noble's at all times. The Cohort's equipment must be paid for by the Noble. The Cohort can be (fighter? Any class?). 20 point buy?

Level 4: Inspire Excellence: Once per day a Noble can cause an ally's damage rolls to count as the maximum for that die, affecting one Die per level. For example, if a 4th level Noble spends their turn Inspiring: a 5th level Wizard who casts Fireball (5d6 damage), makes the damage roll. The Noble can Max out up to 4 of these dice, selected after the damage roll, making them a 6 instead of a 1-5.

Level 5: dunno. Bonus Cohort ability scores?

Level 6: dunno.

[D-naras]

Regarding the Noble/Tyrant and minion summoning.

Why don't you treat the minions similar to a wizard's spellbook? Something like this:

Entourage (ex): A Noble has a cadre of loyal followers/servile minions/expendable slaves.

A Noble begins play with 2 1 HD commoner minions plus 1 more per Charisma Bonus. The minions are of any race with no level adjustment and have typical ability scores for their race. These minions follow the Noble and are completely loyal to him, even to the point of death. However any lost minions can only be recovered in a civilised area at the cost of 5 gp each. A Noble can have a maximum of 1+Level+Cha modifier of Hit Dice in minions at a time. Any equipment used by the minions must be provided by the Noble.

At 3rd level, the Noble can hire more capable minions. His minions can now be of a race with a +1 LA or gain a 2nd HD. He may hire Experts (with at least 2 skills of the Noble's choice at max ranks) and Warriors (with at least 1 Fighter Feat that they qualify, of the Noble's choice) but each Expert and Warrior counts as having +1 HD for the purpose of total minions and costs 40gp to hire.

At 5th level, the Noble can hire even better minions. His minions can now be of 3 HD each, or have a Level Adjustment of +2. He may hire Adepts (with at least 2 spells of the Noble's choice and an Item Creation feat that they qualify, of the Noble's choice) but each Adept counts as having +3 HD for the purposes of total minions and costs 100gp to hire.

So every odd level, the Noble gains access to the next level of minions that he must pay for, just like the wizard has to pay for new spells.

[OzzyKP]

D-naras, that sounds much better. It retains the spirit and function of the current ability, but is more plausible than conjuring people out of mid-air.

Though I suppose any player can pay to hire henchmen. So noble minions/henchmen would have to be either stronger/better or cheaper than what other classes could hire.

[Surrealistik]

I'd rather not have the Noble's core ability require burning WBL, especially when it is likely to already expend a lot of it on magic items per its UMD training.

A diplomacy/intimidate/streetwise check to get new minions? Cool, but no wealth consumption please. Also, since requiring recruitment drives to generate minions would be significantly more prohibitive than the current state of conjuring them from thin air, minions should probably be better and more durable on the whole.

[OzzyKP]

I'd rather not have the Noble's core ability require burning WBL, especially when it is likely to already expend a lot of it on magic items per its UMD training.

A diplomacy/intimidate/streetwise check to get new minions? Cool, but no wealth consumption please. Also, since requiring recruitment drives to generate minions would be significantly more prohibitive than the current state of conjuring them from thin air, minions should probably be better and more durable on the whole.

I agree with all of this.

[Surrealistik]

So far as the Tyrant's fear based abilities go, I can see him goading/intimidating his allies into taking additional actions, shaking off/disregarding conditions, especially mind-affecting ones, and even staving off the reaper for a turn or until their final orders are complete per the frenzied berserker, fearing the scorn of their master more than death itself.

[fireinthedust]

Okay, posted in PbP forum. Huzzah!

[The Dragon]

Hey gnorman, there's some of the archetypes that are missing abilities.

Namely, the crusader white mage, and all of the warrior spellcaster archetypes.

Do you have a timeframe on when you think those will be up?

[Rizban]

Hey gnorman, there's some of the archetypes that are missing abilities.

Namely, the crusader white mage, and all of the warrior spellcaster archetypes.

Do you have a timeframe on when you think those will be up?

This is probably the single most often asked question in this thread... The typical answer is along the lines of "maybe eventually, I'm trying to decide what to do with the system."

[Gnorman]

Hey gnorman, there's some of the archetypes that are missing abilities.

Namely, the crusader white mage, and all of the warrior spellcaster archetypes.

Do you have a timeframe on when you think those will be up?


This is probably the single most often asked question in this thread... The typical answer is along the lines of "maybe eventually, I'm trying to decide what to do with the system."

That's a LITTLE unfair. There is also the "being in graduate school" thing. But I take your point. Too much talk and not enough action. I've got a long weekend. I'll see what I can whip up by Monday.

[Rizban]

That's a LITTLE unfair. There is also the "being in graduate school" thing. But I take your point. Too much talk and not enough action. I've got a long weekend. I'll see what I can whip up by Monday.It wasn't meant to be derogatory... Your usual response usually is along the lines of saying you're trying to decide how to handle different things in the system before approaching those.

When you approach it, don't forget the comprehensive review (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14736566#post14736566) I did of the Combat and Skilled classes quite awhile back.

[Gnorman]

It wasn't meant to be derogatory... Your usual response usually is along the lines of saying you're trying to decide how to handle different things in the system before approaching those.

When you approach it, don't forget the comprehensive review (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14736566#post14736566) I did of the Combat and Skilled classes quite awhile back.

My apologies then. I thought I detected a note of admonishment in your statement.

I'll definitely be reviewing your review, as well as a couple of others. I still might be doing an overhaul in the future, but I'll at least COMPLETE the current version before moving forward.

[Mechanix]

Something I am not clear on and would like a clarification:


Deadly Aim: The hunter may add his Dexterity modifier to damage rolls while using ranged weapons. When using thrown weapons, he may substitute his Dexterity modifier for his Strength modifier for the purposes of damage rolls.Does that mean that, for ranged weapons in general, the hunter adds his Dex modifier on top of the Strength modifier if it would apply (such as composite bows or a Wood Elf), or does it replace the Strength modifier?

Secondly, does the second clause supercede the first for thrown weapons? That is, do thrown weapons only get the Dex modifier (instead of the Str modifier), or do they get Dex + Dex?

[Gnorman]

Hey folks! My internet was down most of the weekend, so I was unable to get much work done on this. But I'm still committed to plugging the existing holes in the system over the next week or so.


Something I am not clear on and would like a clarification:

Does that mean that, for ranged weapons in general, the hunter adds his Dex modifier on top of the Strength modifier if it would apply (such as composite bows or a Wood Elf), or does it replace the Strength modifier?

Secondly, does the second clause supercede the first for thrown weapons? That is, do thrown weapons only get the Dex modifier (instead of the Str modifier), or do they get Dex + Dex?

As written, the Dex bonus is CUMULATIVE with the Str bonus for general ranged weapons, and REPLACES the Str bonus for thrown weapons.

[Mechanix]

As written, the Dex bonus is CUMULATIVE with the Str bonus for general ranged weapons, and REPLACES the Str bonus for thrown weapons.
Curses, there goes my damage 1d3+10 halfling sling user :smalltongue: Thanks for the swift answer.

[The Dragon]

Curses, there goes my damage 1d3+10 halfling sling user :smalltongue: Thanks for the swift answer.

Dead Eye from dragon conpendium is your friend here.

I'm planning to give my current drow hunter that feat, as well as crosbow sniper from PHB II.

This makes for 2½*dex to damage. That's pretty dadly, although the investment (three feats in addition to standard crossbow archery feats) is pretty high.

[OzzyKP]

I'll definitely be reviewing your review, as well as a couple of others. I still might be doing an overhaul in the future, but I'll at least COMPLETE the current version before moving forward.

Well if you are looking over thoughts from others and completing the current system, please don't forget my ideas for the charlatan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14678948&postcount=356)and the swashbuckler (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14678948&postcount=356).

[Gnorman]

Well if you are looking over thoughts from others and completing the current system, please don't forget my ideas for the charlatan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14678948&postcount=356)and the swashbuckler (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14678948&postcount=356).

Both links point to the swashbuckler. But I'll be combing the whole thread(s) and reviewing a plethora of previous suggestions.

[The Dragon]

I just noticed that hunters don't get Track as a bonus feat. This seems strange. Was it intended?

I can't really ever see myself spending a feat on Track before well into epic levels, as archery already needs a crapton of feats to work.

But I do feel that it has flavor that the hunter should be able to back up from level one.

[OzzyKP]

Both links point to the swashbuckler. But I'll be combing the whole thread(s) and reviewing a plethora of previous suggestions.

Oops, sorry, here is the charlatan:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14679241&postcount=357

[Aiinsha]

Hey there, people. I may look new, but well, I was a lurker for a good while.

Well, I knew e6 by a friend's table (I think that's the right term, hihi), because she wanted a low-paced game, without the bizarre stuff that high levels bring. Yet I always ask her to nerf stuff, because even at e6, there is "too much damage" (invisible sneak attack dealing +21 extra damage? Damn it D: )

As a developer (I fail at being able to mantain a game running, but at least I have Charisma) I make a lot of stuff, specially to decrease damage. I noticed missing classes, and I planned to try some~ As we are using Vancian to Psionics in our campaign, instead of bonus spells, we are using mantles and domains for the archetypes, it's working very nicely~

But off to the homebrewing!

First of all... Why is hyperborean an archetype of blue mage? Just because it can cast ice? And Ice = blue... One of our houserules was switching Chaos Child to Blue Mage, and Hyperborean to Red Mage. Talking of Chaos Child, it's the first proposed change. A child guided by their emotions to release their spells.

Blue Red Mage (Chaos Child):
Lesser Archetype Power: The chaos child can let her passion and emotion rise to the surface in a wild surge as a wilder of the same level, except for the following: At 6th level, she can boost her caster level by up to three; The chaos child also suffers a state similar to psychic enervation, being dazed for one round and losing hit points equal to her chaos child level.
Moderate Archetype Power: a chaos child’s intuition supersedes her intellect, alerting her to danger from touch attacks (including rays). She gains a bonus to Armor Class against all touch attacks equal to her Charisma bonus; however, her touch AC can never exceed her Armor Class against normal attacks.
Greater Archetype Power: Any time a chaos child is affected by a mind-affecting or fear effect and makes its save, it can choose one of those options:
Feign Success: it can make the caster believe the chaos child failed on its save.
Drain Spell: it can force the caster to lose a spell of the same level (if a caster) or power points equivalent to the power level (if a manifester)
Reflect Effect: it can force the caster to make a save against its own effect.

Next one, that needed homebrewing, the hunter who swears revenge to races, buildings or religions to realize their deeds, the Vindicator.

Gladiator (Vindicator):
Lesser Archetype Power: A vindicator gains the favored enemy class ability (as a ranger), but he has three options: Either choosing between a favored enemy on the ranger class list, targeting an organization (as urban ranger) or followers of an specific deity.
Moderate Archetype Power: The vindicator can choose another favored enemy, following the same rules as above. If a target falls in more than one favored enemy category (example: a human from a thieves' guild marked as favored enemy), add half of the lowest bonus to the highest bonus. Also once per day, as a full-round action, the vindicator can switch one of its favored enemies for another one.
Greater Archetype Power: The vindicator can choose another favored enemy, following the same rules as above. Also once per round, a vindicator can declare a melee counterattack in response of an opponent's melee attack. Both attacks resolve at the same time, and doesn't count as an attack of opportunity.

Next one, the one able to cheat, deceive and walk around without a trace. The Charlatan.

Scoundrel (Charlatan):
Lesser Archetype Power: A Charlatan can always take 10 in bluff (except for feinting in combat), Diplomacy, Disguise, Forgery and Sleight of Hand checks, even if stressed or endangered. Additionally, a charlatan can try a rushed Diplomacy check with half the penalty (-5).
Moderate Archetype Power: Once per encounter, you can prevent a failure in a Bluff, Diplomacy or Disguise check by making a new Bluff check at the same DC.
Greater Archetype Power: A Charlatan never looks suspicious. As long as there is no apparent weapons with them (due to not having weapons, or they being conceaed with Sleight of Hand checks), or not tried any ofensive action in anyone in the area, an opponent must take a Will save (DC 10 + half the charlatan's level + the charlatan's Charisma modifier) or they will favor attacking people who fulfills those conditions.

Now, onto the White Mages. The Champion hits evil people in the face. The healer... heals. The exorcist gets rid of evil stuff with spells. The oracle looks into the past, present and future. And the executioner... What does he do? As I didn't found any freaking idea, I thought: Why not get rid of it and replace with something nice?

The Champion was missing one archetype skill. The Executioner has only one. Then... Why not unite them?

White Mage (Champion):
Moderate Archetype Power: A champion may expend a spell slot to channel Inflict Wounds spells (of the same level as the expended slot) as part of a melee attack. If the attack is successful, it deals normal weapon damage and the spell is delivered without offering a save. A champion may channel Cure spells in this way if he chooses, such as when attacking the undead or other creatures harmed by positive energy.

That means we have one free archetype, right? Then, straight from Book of Erotic Fantasy, the divine caster made simple to look and act pretty (aka the social white mage), the Imagist, renamed as The Muse archetype:

White Mage (Muse):

Bonus Spells:
1: Charm Person, Unseen Servant
2: Calm Emotions, Zone of Truth
3: Suggestion, Glibness
Capstone: Geas/Quest

Lesser Archetype Power: Image and personality is everything for a muse, so it's their spells. Therefore the muse's sole casting stat is Charisma, instead of Wisdom. Also add Perform, Bluff and Speak Language into their class skills.
Moderate Archetype Power: A muse can use the granted power from its deity to inspire their allies to greater deeds. It can expend an daily use of Turn Undead to generate an sacred bonus to attack and damage rolls, ability checks, skill checks and saving throws to all allies in a 20ft radius equal to the muse's Charisma bonus for one round. This ability can be extended for only one person, as long as they remain in touch range with the muse.
Greater Archetype Power: A muse's personality is as close as her deity's, to the point people avoid touching her. The muse is permanently affected by Sanctuary (DC = 10 + half the muse's level + the muse's Charisma modifier), as long as she only focuses on helping people. Any attack action used by the muse suppresses the sanctuary for one minute.

Then we go again to the fighters. I don't understand why the fighter-mage is called "rage" magus. Then I used Calm Emotions. And they are just... The Magus.

Gladiator (Magus):
Lesser Archetype Power: A magus gains the ability to cast a small number of spells from the red mage's spell list, as outlined in the table below. In all respects, a magus casts spells just as a red mage would, including which kinds of armor and shields he can ignore arcane failure.
Moderate Archetype Power: A magus can channel spells in their weapon (as a duskblade would do), as long as they have a range of Touch. Channeling a spell is part of a single attack action and can be used only once per round. If the attack hits, the spell is automatically discharged in the same target. If the attack misses, the weapon remais charged for one round per magus level. If the spell discharged requires a Reflex save, the target is disallowed to make a save.
Greater Archetype Power: The magus can also channel spells with areas of Line, Burst and Cone. Spells channeled this way have a +1 bonus on their DC.

There are a couple more stuff, but they aren't developed well enough to post.

Hope you like it~

[MirthTheBard]

Quick question, would anyone recommend this for use in it's current state? Or does it still need much more work? It seems decent enough to me, but I'd like someone else's opinion, I'm not the best judge of class balance, especially in homebrew.

[Gnorman]

Quick question, would anyone recommend this for use in it's current state? Or does it still need much more work? It seems decent enough to me, but I'd like someone else's opinion, I'm not the best judge of class balance, especially in homebrew.

Mirth,

In my own admittedly-biased opinion, I'd say that what's done is usable. There are definitely some troubling spots, though - the lack of archetype powers for a few scattered archetypes comes to mind, among other things. I do plan on filling in the gaps soon, once the quarter-from-hell is over (done by June!). I hope to at least update the table code sooner than that. But I am sadly a very busy man right now.

Balance-wise, I've received positive feedback from most people who've used the system, although I think the casters still tend to dominate (this is a problem inherent in the system). But it's not AS bad.

In any case, I hope other posters will feel free to chime in with their opinions. They may have some suggestions to help you fill in the gaps for your own group - I know some kind folks have written up some of the missing archetype powers.

[darklink_shadow]

I've played using this compendium three times. Always a fun game.

[Eldest]

I think it is generally usable. I will pm you a decent way to change the table code when I am not mildly drunk and very sleepy, Gnorman.

[Gnorman]

Hello, all!

While I haven't had a TON of time to work on this project, I have been kicking around some ideas that I want to run by you - here's a Google doc (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Yb6uvtp5rhBBs8QqHMBFICW2bLF3e-rMlfX5tpJf1YA/edit?usp=sharing) that contains them. Would love to hear your thoughts on what may end up being version 3.0.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Hello, all!

While I haven't had a TON of time to work on this project, I have been kicking around some ideas that I want to run by you - here's a Google doc (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Yb6uvtp5rhBBs8QqHMBFICW2bLF3e-rMlfX5tpJf1YA/edit?usp=sharing) that contains them. Would love to hear your thoughts on what may end up being version 3.0.

Mech Knight needs a version that gets a Large-sized suit of mech armor, a version that uses guns and sticky bombs, and a version that is an antimage.

[Eldest]

The only oddity would be the noble under divine, I guess. Otherwise looks solid. It'll be a shame watching some of these ideas get flushed, though. There's no spot for a soulknife-esque class, for example.

Come to think of it that might be a fun set of feats. Something that gives you the ability to materialize a weapon. And now I'm on the idea of feat sets and thinking through some selections of binding, ToB, and incarnum feats and trying to figure out other subsystems to add.

[Gnorman]

The only oddity would be the noble under divine, I guess. Otherwise looks solid. It'll be a shame watching some of these ideas get flushed, though. There's no spot for a soulknife-esque class, for example.

Come to think of it that might be a fun set of feats. Something that gives you the ability to materialize a weapon. And now I'm on the idea of feat sets and thinking through some selections of binding, ToB, and incarnum feats and trying to figure out other subsystems to add.

I justified the noble under divine as "divine right of nobility," but you're right, it's not a perfect fit. Then, nothing really is.

Honestly, the version that removes skilled classes entirely works out to have better symmetry, but you end up losing the Spellsword, Blackguard, Noble, Sage, Empath, Operative, and Barbarian. The nice part about leaving them in is that it allows you to add in subsystems pretty easily - they mostly come in neat little groups of three (ToB and MoI, for example). But you could just as easily have one "Initiator" class and make crusader/swordsage/warblade archetypes. It's all malleable - I'm not wedded to groups of three, which don't make much sense for subsystems like binding. Ultimately, I don't want to end up having TOO many classes - ~20-25 is probably the upper limit, and even then I'd prefer less for simplicity's sake. Plus, the distinction between Combat and Skilled classes is pretty thin as it is. But I am also loathe to eliminate classes and concepts I've spent a good deal fleshing out, and on which players have come to rely.

With the right archetype, the soulknife could easily exist on the monk (which is going to be look more like a psychic warrior anyway).

[OzzyKP]

I would definitely keep the skilled classes.

[Belmikor]

Dropping by to say thanks for this project. I've been using these classes in my West Marches (http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/78/grand-experiments-west-marches/) inspired E6 game for half a year now. Balance has thus far been pretty good, but there's only one who has managed to ascend to 3rd level and only two casters so much remains to be seen. Most are new to DnD, but even the older gamers have liked the way these work and play out so I'd say you have done excellent work. Even if it's incomplete.
I really like the current set-up of classes (and it would be a huge load of work to change everything now) so can you give a good heads-up when/if you do a make-over for 3.0? Or are you just making a new thread for that?

[Gnorman]

Dropping by to say thanks for this project. I've been using these classes in my West Marches (http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/78/grand-experiments-west-marches/) inspired E6 game for half a year now. Balance has thus far been pretty good, but there's only one who has managed to ascend to 3rd level and only two casters so much remains to be seen. Most are new to DnD, but even the older gamers have liked the way these work and play out so I'd say you have done excellent work. Even if it's incomplete.
I really like the current set-up of classes (and it would be a huge load of work to change everything now) so can you give a good heads-up when/if you do a make-over for 3.0? Or are you just making a new thread for that?

I will be completing version 2.0 before I ever move on to 3.0, which will definitely be its own thread. I wouldn't want to throw over players mid-game; this version of the compendium will be preserved for posterity's sake and for those who prefer it to whatever others may come to exist.

[Gnorman]

Tables have been updated!

[Mithril Leaf]

So not meaning to rush you, but how's it looking now that we're well into summer?

[nonsi]

Hello, all!

While I haven't had a TON of time to work on this project, I have been kicking around some ideas that I want to run by you - here's a Google doc (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Yb6uvtp5rhBBs8QqHMBFICW2bLF3e-rMlfX5tpJf1YA/edit?usp=sharing) that contains them. Would love to hear your thoughts on what may end up being version 3.0.

If each class (Ranger for instance) is broken down into 3 sub-casses - you should make sure this doesn't spread them too thin and make their functionality too narrow.
... and 63 classes would require a lot of work to balance.


EDIT: For version 3.0, consider not using the term "Archetype Power" for class abilities - it hides the actual features and denies the option of figuring the class by glancing the table.
.

[rexx1888]

hey hey, just wanted to throw my support behind this thing, its good to see the work your doing gnorman :D alsways good to have more e6 around :D

[Shades of Gray]

Just noticed that only the Chemistry section has the gadget, grenade, serum, and armament labels.

[Gnorman]

So not meaning to rush you, but how's it looking now that we're well into summer?

Summer's been a bit busier than I'd expected, but I have not abandoned the project. As work winds down and classes start up, I should honestly have more time.


If each class (Ranger for instance) is broken down into 3 sub-casses - you should make sure this doesn't spread them too thin and make their functionality too narrow.
... and 63 classes would require a lot of work to balance.


EDIT: For version 3.0, consider not using the term "Archetype Power" for class abilities - it hides the actual features and denies the option of figuring the class by glancing the table.
.

It's a lot, yeah. I'm honestly leaning towards the version WITHOUT "Skilled" classes; the Noble, Sage, Spellsword, and Blackguard are narrower concepts than I'd like, and it'd be hard to come up with archetypes that aren't too specialized. I do hate leaving the Barbarian behind, though.


hey hey, just wanted to throw my support behind this thing, its good to see the work your doing gnorman :D alsways good to have more e6 around :D

Thanks!


Just noticed that only the Chemistry section has the gadget, grenade, serum, and armament labels.

I have yet to update that section; it is on the to-do list though.

[OzzyKP]

It's a lot, yeah. I'm honestly leaning towards the version WITHOUT "Skilled" classes; the Noble, Sage, Spellsword, and Blackguard are narrower concepts than I'd like, and it'd be hard to come up with archetypes that aren't too specialized. I do hate leaving the Barbarian behind, though.

:smallfrown:

[Gnorman]

:smallfrown:

I think they make great archetypes (for the Warmage, Monk/Rogue, Bard, and Paladin, respectively), but I've always had trouble finding the design space for five archetypes for each class. Suggestions would be very welcome!

It's not decided yet, and I'm certainly willing to bow to popular pressure on the point.

[Mithril Leaf]

Gnorman, as both a mortal man and the premiere E6 homebrewer around, perhaps it would useful for the next version if you encouraged people to submit material to be added to the project. You could increase integrate when needed, but a community driven system might ensure that all subsystems are covered, such as Binding.
Speaking of Binding actually, we might want to check out the Spirit Binding from Radiance House, as their PF offerings are OGL and might be easy to implement. Just an idea though.

[Gnorman]

Gnorman, as both a mortal man and the premiere E6 homebrewer around, perhaps it would useful for the next version if you encouraged people to submit material to be added to the project. You could increase integrate when needed, but a community driven system might ensure that all subsystems are covered, such as Binding.

I've always encouraged people to submit material to the project! Given my lack of time recently, though, it may warrant another mention. So: HEY! SUBMIT MATERIAL TO THE PROJECT!

I will have some time over this week and next to begin shoring up the remaining glaring holes.

A repost of my to-do list:

- In general: scour thread for outstanding comments and critiques; address long-standing issues (Rizban, I'm primarily hoping to address your commentary here, but there are many others)
- Brawler: add fifth archetype (likely an agile, elusive martial artist); Cenobite's Greater ability
- Gladiator: replace or finish Rage Magus; replace Vindicator (likely with a Marshal-like leader/buffer)
- Hunter: replace or finish Warden; add third option to Peerless Archer; add more traps
- Sentinel: add fifth archetype (likely an avenging knight); Bastion's Moderate ability; Landsknecht's Greater ability; third option to Immovable Object
- Zealot: add fifth archetype (likely an implacable protector); Cavalier's Lesser ability; replace or finish Initiate
- Engineer: replace Machinist and possibly Innovator; standardize Invention categories
- Sage: finish Investigator; add two options to Pure Genius; possibly nerf some Targeted Strikes
- Scoundrel: add fifth archetype (likely a technologically-inclined operative, may even get some Inventions); replace or finish Charlatan; add two options to A Dash of Rogue
- Blue Mage: remove Summon Monster from spell list
- Red Mage: replace Chaos Child; possibly Sand Shaper; remove Summon Monster from spell list
- White Mage: replace Divine Executioner (likely a theurgic summoner); add Champion's Moderate ability
- All psionic classes: replace bonus powers from Complete Psionic (and perhaps Dreamscarred Press) with SRD-only bonus powers
- Miscellaneous formatting & error-checking
- Whatever else remains

[Mithril Leaf]

I will have some time over this week and next to begin shoring up the remaining glaring holes.

A repost of my to-do list:

- In general: scour thread for outstanding comments and critiques; address long-standing issues (Rizban, I'm primarily hoping to address your commentary here, but there are many others)
- Engineer: replace Machinist and possibly Innovator; standardize Invention categories
- All psionic classes: replace bonus powers from Complete Psionic (and perhaps Dreamscarred Press) with SRD-only bonus powers

Damn it, just as I'm about to start playing as a Innovator. I really like that archtype, but it is kinda the best one. Maybe toss on a crafting focused one instead? Or I guess you could unbreak the artificer rogue archtype, but that seems like way more work when you could just be a tinker gnome engineer.
Also, I would personally recommend keeping the DSP powers, it encourages people to use their overall balanced material, while still maintaining the freeness inherent in your chosen system.

EDIT: Might I recommend having the Landsknecht's greater power be allowing them to make any number of attacks against charging enemies when set against a charge or something like that? Or maybe that's how it already works and I can't really see it in the places I'm looking.

EDIT2: Or maybe not that because it's 1400 GP in MIC.

EDIT3: The feat Hold The Line also gives you an AoO against all the opponents you meet once you've got a large enough reach.

EDIT4: You know though, the Sentinel really doesn't get to make that many Attacks of Opportunity, due to the fact that it's a heavy armor frontline fighter, and you'd have to run Dex as well for Combat Reflexes. Maybe they should get an ability that either gives them more or lets them use another stat for it.

EDIT5: Oh, maybe they could get one additional AoO per round for each enemy within reach of them.

[Gnorman]

Base Sentinel abilities are also due for an overhaul; the class will focus more on doing obscene amounts of damage to enemies who dare to attack their allies rather than just protecting those allies (though that will certainly still be a secondary role). I do also plan on giving the class the ability to key AoO's off of Constitution, rather than Dexterity.





Saves

Spells Per Day
Spell Book


Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special
0
1
2
3
1
2
3


1st
+0
+0
+0
+2
Archetype Power (Lesser), Spellcasting
5
3
-
-
1
-
-



2nd
+1
+0
+0
+3
Counterspell Mastery
6
4
-
-
1
-
-



3rd
+1
+1
+1
+3
Archetype Power (Moderate)
6
4
2
-
2
1
-


4th
+2
+1
+1
+4
Pure Arcana
6
4
3
-
2
1
-



5th
+2
+1
+1
+4
Bend the Will
6
4
4
2
2
2
1


6th
+3
+2
+2
+5
Archetype Power (Greater), Capstone SLA
6
4
4
3
2
2
1

[Mithril Leaf]

Hmmm, maybe the Engineer could have an archtype along these lines (just spitballing here, if it's liked it could be cleaned up):
Chymist
Lesser Archetype Power: A chymist may measure their progress on alchemical items in gold rather than silver. Additionally, they may prepare another chemistry or explosive invention of their highest level.
Moderate Archetype Power: All of the chymist's inventions have double their normal duration.
Greater Archetype Power: Any invention of the chemistry or explosives fields that are prepared by a chymist may be used twice per preparation.

EDIT: Or maybe have the Greater Archetype Power be this:
When crafting Alchemical Items, the Chymist can increase the strength of the items by increasing the DC to craft those items. They gain the following options, all of which may be stacked using standard D&D multiplication rules:

Double the duration of any effects created by the item: +10 (Maybe only +5) DC
Double the effective range of any effects produced by the item (A splash weapon's effect would double in radius, while an item that produces light would shine twice as far): +10 (Maybe only +5) DC
Double the potency of the item, 1d6 would become 2d6, a +2 bonus to a save would become a +4 bonus: +20 (Maybe only +10) DC

This increases the value of the items by 25% per instance of the first 2, and 50% for potency. You may or may not have to pay the increased cost to create?

[iTookUrNick]

I know it's a very small thing, but I would suggest you to use the term Phytomancer instead of Chloromancer for the Green mage archetype, the reason being that phyto (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/phyto-)- is usually associated with plants while chloro- (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/chloro-) nowadays tends to be associated with chlorine.

Also, as always, great work.

[Gnorman]

Playgrounders,

It's been a while, I know. I've missed you too. GE6 isn't dead, though it has been in hibernation for a while. Looking ahead to the future of the project, here are some base classes to expect:

The Bard
Archetypes: Bladesinger, Chameleon, Dirgesinger, Skald, Virtuoso

The Cleric
Archetypes: Champion, Exorcist, Healer, Oracle, Theurge

The Druid
Archetypes: Earthdreamer, Moonspeaker, Shifter, Stormlord, Verdant Lord

The Engineer
Archetypes: Cannoneer, Saboteur, Sawbones, Steamknight, Tinker

The Fighter
Archetypes: Barbarian, Kensai, Juggernaut, Ravager, Warlord

The Monk
Archetypes: Ardent, Egoist, Soulknife, Slayer, Warmind

The Paladin
Archetypes: Blackguard, Cavalier, Hospitaler, Knight Protector, Templar

The Psion
Archetypes: Kineticist, Nomad, Shaper, Seer, Telepath

The Ranger
Archetypes: Beastmaster, Dervish, Sniper, Stalker, Warden

The Rogue
Archetypes: Assassin, Factotum, Shadowdancer, Swashbuckler, Spellthief

The Sorcerer
Archetypes: Dragon Disciple, Duskblade, Shaman, Warmage, Wild Mage

The Warlock
Archetypes: Demonologist, Dread Witch, Hexblade, Necromancer, Verminlord

The Wizard
Archetypes: Archivist, Artificer, Beguiler, Loremaster, Wayfarer

[nonsi]

Playgrounders,

It's been a while, I know. I've missed you too. GE6 isn't dead, though it has been in hibernation for a while. Looking ahead to the future of the project, here are some base classes to expect:

The Bard
Archetypes: Bladesinger, Chameleon, Dirgesinger, Skald, Virtuoso

The Cleric
Archetypes: Champion, Exorcist, Healer, Oracle, Theurge

The Druid
Archetypes: Earthdreamer, Moonspeaker, Shifter, Stormlord, Verdant Lord

The Engineer
Archetypes: Cannoneer, Saboteur, Sawbones, Steamknight, Tinker

The Fighter
Archetypes: Barbarian, Kensai, Juggernaut, Ravager, Warlord

The Monk
Archetypes: Ardent, Egoist, Soulknife, Slayer, Warmind

The Paladin
Archetypes: Blackguard, Cavalier, Hospitaler, Knight Protector, Templar

The Psion
Archetypes: Kineticist, Nomad, Shaper, Seer, Telepath

The Ranger
Archetypes: Beastmaster, Dervish, Sniper, Stalker, Warden

The Rogue
Archetypes: Assassin, Factotum, Shadowdancer, Swashbuckler, Spellthief

The Sorcerer
Archetypes: Dragon Disciple, Duskblade, Shaman, Warmage, Wild Mage

The Warlock
Archetypes: Demonologist, Dread Witch, Hexblade, Necromancer, Verminlord

The Wizard
Archetypes: Archivist, Artificer, Beguiler, Loremaster, Wayfarer

Do you really need all of the above?
65 is a tough number to achieve. I'd consider managing some of them via multiclassing (unless you've got most of them figured out already).

And here's a challenge, if you really get bored and have no special plans for a prolonged period of time: 20-level versions :smallbiggrin:

[Gnorman]

Do you really need all of the above?
65 is a tough number to achieve. I'd consider managing some of them via multiclassing (unless you've got most of them figured out already).

And here's a challenge, if you really get bored and have no special plans for a prolonged period of time: 20-level versions :smallbiggrin:

I don't NEED all of them, no. I've been toying with cutting archetypes down to 3 per class. But the next version will also have fewer base classes (things like the Sentinel, Sage, and Noble are being cut or absorbed into other classes) so I thought I'd make up for that somehow.


I know it's a very small thing, but I would suggest you to use the term Phytomancer instead of Chloromancer for the Green mage archetype, the reason being that phyto (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/phyto-)- is usually associated with plants while chloro- (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/chloro-) nowadays tends to be associated with chlorine.

Also, as always, great work.

Good point, thanks! Changed.

[stack]

I haven't looked in at this for some time, but I started trying to build a character for a new game and was surprised and disappointed in a number of the changes. Juggernauts don't get dungeoncrashing damage until their greater archetype power now? I can see how the damage could have been too high, but I would rather see the CON to maneuvers come later and get some damage from the start so you can use your primary schtick straight on through (1d6/level + str or something).

Gladiators do...not much of interest. The abilities are fine, there just isn't much to hang your hat on beyond 'full BAB'.

Hostile spell resistance was cool for the zealot. Regular spell resistance is likely to hose your party, especially given the amount of time it takes to switch auras. You can turn it off as a free action (therefore only on your turn), but then you are just wasting the aura slot most of the time. Bad.

Brawlers no longer get light armor? I don't get it, I thought the whole point of the brawler was to learn from the mistakes of the monk. Now it has low AC and without its extra attacks won't be hurting anything. Moving fast and dieing ineffectively isn't a solid basis for a class.

Dragons also suffer from terrible AC. 1 NA per HD? No armor, no CON to AC, nothing. I don't get it.

Races seem unevenly balanced as well, but that is a post for another thread. (Dueragar immunities? Seriously?)

[OzzyKP]

I agree that the Sentinel & Zealot are much better martial classes than the Brawler & Gladiator.

[Gnorman]

I haven't looked in at this for some time, but I started trying to build a character for a new game and was surprised and disappointed in a number of the changes. Juggernauts don't get dungeoncrashing damage until their greater archetype power now? I can see how the damage could have been too high, but I would rather see the CON to maneuvers come later and get some damage from the start so you can use your primary schtick straight on through (1d6/level + str or something).

Gladiators do...not much of interest. The abilities are fine, there just isn't much to hang your hat on beyond 'full BAB'.

Hostile spell resistance was cool for the zealot. Regular spell resistance is likely to hose your party, especially given the amount of time it takes to switch auras. You can turn it off as a free action (therefore only on your turn), but then you are just wasting the aura slot most of the time. Bad.

Brawlers no longer get light armor? I don't get it, I thought the whole point of the brawler was to learn from the mistakes of the monk. Now it has low AC and without its extra attacks won't be hurting anything. Moving fast and dieing ineffectively isn't a solid basis for a class.

Dragons also suffer from terrible AC. 1 NA per HD? No armor, no CON to AC, nothing. I don't get it.

Races seem unevenly balanced as well, but that is a post for another thread. (Dueragar immunities? Seriously?)

I can't honestly remember what my thought process was behind these (it's been a LONG time), but you make some fair points. Juggernaut shouldn't have to wait until 6th level to do its basic schtick, and some kind of scaling ability would be appropriate. Gladiator's mechanically solid, but boring, yes. I was kinda proud of the "hostile spell resistance" part of the Templar, and omitting it in 2.0 was probably an oversight on my part. As for your comments about the Dragon, I take your point about AC being a tad low, especially at low levels. But I designed the class with the understanding that they could also wear barding. That shores up the low AC, and by the time they can fly (thus no longer being able to wear medium or heavy barding), the natural armor is sufficient to make up the difference. And I have to say I'm a little confused about duergar immunities. Are they that overpowered? I always thought the duergar was considered a very, very poor deal for its LA.

In any case, I'm graduating in a couple of weeks, and I may have some time to make some changes while I study for the bar. I know there are still quite a few holes in this version, and I'm still committed to shoring them up.


I agree that the Sentinel & Zealot are much better martial classes than the Brawler & Gladiator.

I probably overreacted to some of the math-hammering of the Brawler in the previous thread. Removal of the light armor proficiency might have been part of that.

[stack]

Dragons still wouldn't be proficient in armor, so would take penalties for barding, which would count as armor. Unless that's different in 3.5, more familiar with PF. I'll try to remeber to check in when you review stuff to weigh in. Sorry if I was too strong above, I was rather annoyed at that moment since none of the things I wanted to do worked the way I remembered.

[Gnorman]

Dragons still wouldn't be proficient in armor, so would take penalties for barding, which would count as armor. Unless that's different in 3.5, more familiar with PF. I'll try to remeber to check in when you review stuff to weigh in. Sorry if I was too strong above, I was rather annoyed at that moment since none of the things I wanted to do worked the way I remembered.

Re: dragon proficiency: fair point. Barding has always been a bit ambiguous. With horses, at least, they aren't proficient with any armor "unless trained for war," but it doesn't say what kind of armors that grants proficiency with. Still, one could bypass the issue with "Armor for Unusual Creatures," though that still requires proficiency. My counterpoint would be this: A level one dragon could wear leather barding with no penalty; mithril chain shirt barding has no penalty either, though most characters won't be able to afford one for a couple levels. I'm wary about adding more to the dragon, because it's already a very powerful class. But the chassis and the natural attacks seem to suit it for a frontline role; lack of AC is at odds with that. I'll at least take it under advisement, though I should also warn you that in all honesty I am considering toning down or entirely removing the sorcerer spellcasting, or perhaps limiting it to one or two archetypes. The only thing preventing me from doing so is the knowledge that the Dragon seems to be a "permission-only" class; I believe at one point I had a warning on it that said something along the lines of "you should really only be using this class in an all-dragon campaign, as it has a much higher baseline than the other classes in this compendium."

Re: strength of criticism: no worries at all. I can understand your frustration. And I generally prefer that my critics don't pull their punches.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Hey, I have a thing for ya. An E6 Summoner. It has exactly two skill sets: Summoning and Buffing. I threw in Protection From/Magic Circle against Alignment, Resist/Protection from Energy, Comprehend Languages and Tongues as well as Dimensional Anchor. After all, someone who deals with extraplanar beings ought to know how to protect himself. Dimensional Anchor I threw in because it makes sense for an expert of, y'know, planar conjuration. I also invented a new spell, Dismiss, that, well, dismisses summoned creatures. If you know how to call 'em, you know how to get rid of 'em. Right now, I've pegged it as Summoner-only spell, but if you want to give it to other classes, feel free.

The Summoner does get a couple of extra abilities, compared to other classes but they basically boil down to Perma-summon and Quicken Spell. So, they should be fine. Right? Anyway, here's the class:



The Summoner

Hit Die: 1d6
Class Skills: Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, Knowledge (All except Nobility and Royalty and Architecture and Engineering), Listen, Ride, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device
Skill Points: 4 + Int per level (4x at 1st)



Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd


1st
+0
+0
+2
+2
Archetype Power (Lesser), Spellcasting, Companion
5
4
—
—


2nd
+1
+0
+3
+3
Augment Summoning, Quick Summon
5
5
—
—


3rd
+2
+1
+3
+3
Archetype Power (Moderate)
5
5
4
—


4th
+3
+1
+4
+4
Extended Summoning
5
6
5
—


5th
+3
+1
+4
+4
Buffing Distance
5
6
5
—


6th
+4
+2
+5
+5
Archetype Power (Greater)
5
6
6
4




Proficiencies: The Summoner is proficient with light armour and simple weapons. He does not suffer from arcane failure while in light armour.

Archetype Power: At 1st level, the Summoner chooses an archetype from the following list. Once made, the choice is final. Each archetype offers a set of powers and alters a Summoner's Summon X list, which are detailed below and become available when the Summoner is capable of casting Summon X spells of that level. The spell the archetype alters is also listed.

Spellcasting: The Summoner casts arcane spells from a specialized list, which is included below. A Summoner need not prepare spells ahead of time - he may spontaneously cast any spell on his list from the appropriate slot. He still requires eight hours of rest to refresh his spells. His sole casting stat is Charisma, which dictates both the DC of his spells and his bonus spells. To cast a spell, the Summoner must have a Charisma score equal to 10 + the level of spell in question. Any Buffing spell (See Buffing Distance) ignores the Spell Resistance (If any) and/or other immunities of your summoned creatures. Mindless creatures cannot be affected by Mind Affecting abilities, however.

Companion (Su): A Summoner has access to a Companion that he can summon at-will, this ability is always a Standard Action and there is no time limit and he summons the same creature each time. Once summoned, his Companion may enter Anti-Magic Fields and the like, but cannot be summoned into them. His Companion is chosen from the list of the highest level Summon X spell he has available (Swapping for new creatures when he gets access to them), except that he may not choose the "X from a lower list" option. This ability is equivelent to a spell with a level equal to the highest level Summon Monster spell he can cast. If killed, his Companion will reform after an hour.

Augment Summoning: At second level, a Summoner gets the Augment Summoning feat for free, regardless of whether he qualifies.

Quick Summoning (Ex): At second level, all Summon X Spells have a Casting time of a Standard Action, rather than 1 Round.

Extended Summoning (Ex): At fourth level, all of a Summoner's Summon X spells are Extended automatically without using a higher level slot. This ability does not affect the Capstone Summon.

Buffing Distance (Ex): Any Buffing spell he casts (Defined as any spell that grants a bonus to Ability Scores, skill checks, attack rolls, saves, damage rolls, grants temporary HP or grants a Miss Chance. Magic Weapon and Magic Fang, and the Greater versions, also count as Buffing spells.) that has a Range of Touch instead has a Range of Close. However, he may only target his Summoned creatures (Or their equipment) or his Companion. He may still use them as Touch spells on other allies, though.

Summoner Spell List:
0: Detect Magic, Guidance, Message, Prestidigitation, Read Magic, Resistance, Virtue
1st: Bless, Comprehend Languages, Entropic Shield, Mage Armour, Magic Fang, Magic Weapon, Mount, Protection from Good/Evil/Chaos/Law, Remove Fear, Shield of Faith, Summon Monster I, Summon Nature's Ally I
2nd: Aid, Bear's Endurance, Blur, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Dismiss*, Eagle's Splendour, Fox's Cunning, Heroism Owl's Wisdom, Rage, Resist Energy, Status, Summon Monster II, Summon Nature's Ally II, Summon Swarm, Tongues
3rd: Dimensional Anchor, Displacement, Good Hope, Haste, Keen Edge, Magic Circle against Good/Evil/Chaos/Law, Magic Fang (Greater), Magic Vestment, Magic Weapon (Greater), Phantom Steed, Prayer, Protection from Energy, Summon Monster III, Summon Nature's Ally III

*New Spell:


Dismiss
Conjuration

Level: Summoner 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 Standard Action
Range: Medium
Target: One Summoned creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: No
Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions like a Targeted Dispel Magic, except as mentioned here: You may only affect Creatures summoned with a Conjuration(Summoning) effect and you gain a +4 bonus to the check.

If multiple creatures are summoned via one spell, such as via the "1d3 from the lower list" option, then you only need to successfully dismiss one creature from the group to dismiss all of them.

Dismiss can be used to Counterspell any Conjuration(Summoning) spell.




Archetypes


Energist

(Select Air, Earth, Fire or Water (Anything split by "/" will always be referring to this order, so Blue Dragon Wyrmling is added to the Summon Monster list of an Air Energist). The Bonus Monsters are just labelled "Elemental", but it is an Elemental appropriate to your selected Archetype. So, if you have the Fire Energist Archetype, you get a Fire Elemental.)

Alterations (Summon Monster):
1st: Add Small Elemental to the 1st level list
2nd: Add Medium Elemental to the 2nd level list
3rd: Add Blue/Green/Red/Black Dragon (Wyrmling) to the 3rd level list.
Capstone Summon: Large Elemental

Note: These additions can be made Companions.

(I know Blue and Green dragons are swapped Subtype wise. But their breath attack deals damage more appropriate to the Engergist types mentioned. Look, just roll with it, OK?)

Lesser Archetype Power: Your Summoned creatures gain Energy Resistance 5 to Electricity/Acid/Fire/Cold attacks. This is in addition to any Energy Resistance they already possess.
Moderate Archetype Power: Your Summoned creatures' Electricity/Acid/Fire/Cold attacks deal an extra 1d6 damage.
Greater Archetype Power: Your Summoned creatures' attacks ignore Electricity/Acid/Fire/Cold Energy Resistance possessed by enemies. Enemies that are immune to your Archetype's damage type instead take half damage from your Archetype's energy attacks.



Minionmancer

Alterations (Any Summon spell):
1st: Once per Encounter, you may summon 2 Creatures of the same kind from the 1st level list
2nd: Once per Encounter, you may summon 2 Creatures of the same kind from the 2nd level list
3rd: Once per Encounter, you may summon 2 Creatures of the same kind from the 3rd level list
Capstone Summon: You may summon 1d3 creatures from the 3rd level list, or 1d4+1 creatures from 2nd or 1st level lists.

Note: You cannot use these "extra" summons in conjunction with the "X creatures from another list" effect of the Summon Monster spells.

Lesser Archetype Power: Whenever you cast a Summon X spell (Or summon your companion, use the Capstone Summon), you may, once per encounter, cast another Summon spell (Companion, Capstone Summon) as a free action. You must have available spell slots to do so. (Your companion must be "alive" and you can't have used the Capstone Summon yet. Obviously, your Companion or Capstone Summon ability can only be used on one side of this effect.)
Moderate Archetype Power: Whenever you cast a Summon X spell (Or use your Capstone Summon, but NOT when you summon your Companion.), you may cast one Buffing spell (See Spell Distance, Status counts as a Buff for this ability) with a Casting Time no greater than 1 Standard Action on your Summoned creature as a free action. This effect is considered a part of the Summon spell itself, so the creature "appears" with the effect of the spell already in place. If you summon multiple creatures, you can cast multiple spells but only one per creature.
Greater Archetype Power: Whenever you Summon your Companion, you instead Summon two.



Celestial/Fiendish Specialist

Good summoners cannot be Fiendish Specialists and Evil summoners cannot be Celestial Specialists. Neutral Summoners can decide to be either. If your Alignment changes, then so does your Specialist type. (For example, a Neutral Fiendish Specialist becomes Good, he becomes a Celestial Specialist, instead.)


Alterations (Summon Monster):
1st: All Fiendish Creatures are instead Celestial Creatures for a Celestial Specialist (vice versa for a Fiendish Specialist)
2nd: All Fiendish Creatures are instead Celestial Creatures for a Celestial Specialist (vice versa for a Fiendish Specialist)
3rd: All Fiendish Creatures are instead Celestial Creatures for a Celestial Specialist (vice versa for a Fiendish Specialist)
Capstone Summon:
Celestial Specialist: Hound Archon
Fiendish Specialist: Bearded Devil

Note: These alterations also affect your Companion.

Lesser Archetype Power: The Natural Weapons of any Celestial/Fiendish creature you summon are treated as Good/Evil weapons for the purposes of overcoming Damage Reduction.
Moderate Archetype Power: All Celestial/Fiendish creatures gain benefits from the template is if their Hit Dice was 3 higher.
Greater Archetype Power: Once per week, you may use Lesser Planar Ally as a Spell-Like Ability without spending XP. Unlike the ordinary use of the spell, you may decide what sort of being you call (I.e, if you want to summon a Succubus, you will get a Succubus).



Master Summoner

Alterations (Any Summon spell):
1st: Once per day, you may summon a creature from the 2nd level list
2nd: Once per day, you may summon a creature from the 3rd level list
3rd: Once per day, you may summon a creature from the 4th level list
Capstone Summon: You may summon a creature from the 5th level list

Lesser Archetype Power: All Summon X spells are cast at +2 Caster Level
Moderate Archetype Power: Your Summon X spells cannot be Counterspelled
Greater Archetype Power: Once per week, you may use Lesser Planar Binding as a Spell Like Ability.

[Gnorman]

Awwww, this is a class after my own heart. Superb work. With your permission, I'll put it on the front page.

Please correct me on this if I am in error, but could the Minionmancer summon, say, 4 hasted hellhounds (2 from the twinned Companion ability, 2 from the Alteration) with one standard action? Because if so, cue evil grin.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Feel free to stick it up there.


To be honest, I hadn't thought about that. But I'd have to say no. Only ACTUAL Summon Spells can be pre-buffed in such a manner. I'll have to make that clearer. Gimme a sec to update the actual post.

EDIT: Alright, there we go.


BTW, how would you "rate" the various Summoner Archetypes from best to worst?

[stack]

Minionmancers seems the strongest for its action economy advantages and per encounter useages, Energist and celestial/fiendish seem the weakest. Master summoner is powerful, but has a severe cap on the uses of its abilities.

Need to specify if the master summoner pays the costs as normal for leser planar binding.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Hm. Change Master Summoner so that they're per-encounter abilities, rather than per-day?

Also, they should.

[OzzyKP]

The class seems pretty strong compared to the other magic classes. The base class looks ok, and the archetype powers are ok, but adding in those alteration abilities is like stacking on a second set of archetype powers.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Honestly, if you can come up with something that works better for the archetypes, I'm open to suggestions.

[darklink_shadow]

Here are both of my coppers.

The archetypes could be:

Naturalist:

The Summoner gets Summon Nature ally instead of Summon Monster, which is a really raw deal, isn't it? But don't worry, it'll get better.

Lesser : When you summon a critter, they automatically get magic fang cast on them

Medium : When you summon a critter, they get something neat.

Greater : When you summon just one critter, get to be greenbound. If you summon multiple with the option to summon multiple of a lower level, they instead get an extra +4 str on top of the augment critter feat.

Your companion is instead an animal companion you summon, and gets to be dire for free at some point.

Minionmancer :

You summon lots of little dudes. Whenever you summon multiple dudes, you get an extra dude.

Lesser: You get 1 extra dude.

Medium: You get two extra dudes, and your dudes are flanking any baddie that more than one of them are adjacent to.

Greater: You get 4 extra dudes!

Companion is a regular dude, but you get two of them.

Elements :

You don't summon boring dudes, you summon elemental dudes!

You can only summon elementals, which sucks, but you can expand two summons to get a dude of one higher level summon, ad you have 1.5* as many summons.

Lesser: Your summons get at will spells!

Medium: Your summons get better at will spells!

Greater: Your summons get even better at will spells, and each summon has a once per summon special power! Neat!

Companion: Your companion is any regular dude with a half- elemental template. It can change when you summon it.

Necrosummoner:

You summon dead dudes.

You summon undead.

Lesser: You get a neat feat for when you summon undead. Plus, your undead get extra HP based on your cha.

Medium: You also can rebuke dead dudes!

Greater: You get to be a dead dude! Maybe a vampire? Lich is probably too strong.

Your companion is an undead dude.


Now someone make that... less dudey.

[Eldest]

First thought are that most of the full casters are at 2 skill points a level, which after checking isn't true, so new question becomes why are the blue and black mages at 2 skill points a level? Going on into the psionic classes, the Empath, Esoteric, and Kinetic (the full caster psionics) all are at 2 per level.

In addition, why do third level spells wait till 6th level instead of 5th?

[Gnorman]

First thought are that most of the full casters are at 2 skill points a level, which after checking isn't true, so new question becomes why are the blue and black mages at 2 skill points a level? Going on into the psionic classes, the Empath, Esoteric, and Kinetic (the full caster psionics) all are at 2 per level.

Black and blue mages get 2 because their casting is based on intelligence. Same with kinetic and empath. I tend to give fewer skill points to "priest" types as well, but white mage and esoteric are inconsistent in that regard. This is because white mage is more of a "cloistered cleric" concept than esoteric, who gets a higher hit die and heavy armor proficiency. Honestly, the psionic classes could use an overhaul.

[Eldest]

Black and blue mages get 2 because their casting is based on intelligence. Same with kinetic and empath. I tend to give fewer skill points to "priest" types as well, but white mage and esoteric are inconsistent in that regard. This is because white mage is more of a "cloistered cleric" concept than esoteric, who gets a higher hit die and heavy armor proficiency. Honestly, the psionic classes could use an overhaul.

Alright, didn't think to check the casting. By that logic then the summoner would get 4, then.

[Sgt. Cookie]

SO! Thanks to feedback, a night of drunken debauchery and intense meditation, I have replacement archetypes for the Summoner!

The first change, is that the Summoner no longer gets Alterations. I can hear your startled gasps through the screen. But, they were too powerful. As OzzyKp said: "[T]hose alteration abilities are like stacking on a second set of archetype powers.". Sad, but true. With (a lot of) inspiration from Darklink, which I thank you for good sir!

So, without further adeu, here we go:




Archetypes


Elemental Summoner

Lesser Archetype Power: Any Celestial/Fiendish creatures you summon via Summon Monster instead have the following Template applied:

Elemental Creature:

Elemental Creature is an Inherited Template that can be applied to any of the following:aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, plant, or vermin

Size and Type: The creature's size is unchanged. The creature's Type changes to Elemental (Air/Earth/Fire/Water as appropriate). If the Elemental Creature is found on the Material Plane, it gains the Extraplanar subtype.

Hit Dice: Change to d8s.

Speed: Air Elemental Creatures have a Fly Speed of 100ft (Perfect Manuverability).

Water Elemental Creatures have a Swim Speed of 90ft.

Special Attacks: An Elemental creature gets certain special attacks, depending on its subtype.

Air:

Air Mastery (Ex): Airborne creatures take a -1 penalty on attack and damage rolls against an Air Elemental Creature.

Earth:

Earth Mastery (Ex): An Earth Elemental Creature gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls if both it and its foe are touching the ground. If an opponent is airborne or waterborne, the elemental takes a -4 penalty on attack and damage rolls.

Push (Ex): An Earth Elemental Creature can start a bull rush maneuver without provoking an attack of opportunity. The combat modifiers given in Earth Mastery, above, also apply to the elemental’s opposed Strength checks.

Fire:

Fire Damage (Ex): A Fire Elemental Creature's natural attacks deal extra Fire Damage, depending on their Hit Dice:
0-3HD: 1d4 Fire Damage.
4-7HD: 1d6 Fire Damage.

Burn (Ex): Those hit by a Fire Elemental’s natural attacks also must succeed on a Reflex save or catch on fire. The flame burns for 1d4 rounds. Save DC 10 + 1/2 HD + Con mod. A burning creature can take a move action to put out the flame.

Creatures hitting a Fire Elemental Creature with natural weapons or unarmed attacks take fire damage as though hit by the elemental’s attack, and also catch on fire unless they succeed on a Reflex save.

Water:

Water Mastery (Ex): A Water Elemental creature gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls if both it and its opponent are touching water. If the opponent or the elemental is touching the ground, the elemental takes a -4 penalty on attack and damage rolls.

Drench (Ex): The Water Elemental Creature’s touch puts out torches, campfires, exposed lanterns, and other open flames of nonmagical origin if these are of Large size or smaller. The creature can dispel magical fire it touches as dispel magic (caster level equals Elemental Creature’s HD).

Special Qualities:

All Elemental Creatures have Darkvision out to 60ft. If they already possess Darkvision, use whichever one is better.

Earth Elemental Creatures also the following:

Earth Glide (Ex): An Earth Elemental Creature can glide through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other signs of its presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing a burrowing Earth Elemental Creature flings the elemental back 30 feet, stunning the creature for 1 round unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.

Abilities:

Air: Dex +6

Earth: Str +6, Dex -2

Fire: Dex +2

Water: Str + 4, Con +2



The Elemental Summoner decides what type of Elemental Creature is summoned at the time of casting.

Your Companion also has the Elemental Creature template, instead of the Celestial/Fiendish. Each time you summon your Companion, you may apply a different Elemental Creature template.

Moderate Archetype Power: Add Small Elemental, Medium Elemental and Large Elemental to the Summon Monster I, II and III lists respectively.

Greater Archetype Power: Whenever the Elemental Summoner has summoned an Elemental Creature (Including his Companion), he may, as a Standard action, change what Elemental type it is.



Minionmancer

Lesser Archetype Power: Whenever you cast a Summon X Spell, you may, as a Free Action, cast another Summon X Spell. These do not have to be the same spell or even the same level. (So, you could cast Summon Monster II and then, as a free action, cast Summon Nature's Ally I.)

Moderate Archetype Power: Instead of the "1d3 from [Prior Level's List]" effect of the 2nd and 3rd level Summon X spells, you can summon 1d4+1 creatures.

Instead of the "1d4+1 from the 1st level list" effect from the Summon X III spells, you can summon 1d6+2 creatures.

Greater Archetype Power: Whenever you summon your Companion, you instead summon two.



Celestial/Fiendish Specialist

Good summoners cannot be Fiendish Specialists and Evil summoners cannot be Celestial Specialists. Neutral Summoners can decide to be either. If your Alignment changes, then so does your Specialist type. (For example, a Neutral Fiendish Specialist becomes Good, he becomes a Celestial Specialist, instead.)

Lesser Archetype Power: All Fiendish Creatures are instead Celestial Creatures for a Celestial Specialist (vice versa for a Fiendish Specialist).

Moderate Archetype Power: The Natural Weapons of any Celestial/Fiendish creature you summon are treated as Good/Evil weapons for the purposes of overcoming Damage Reduction.

Greater Archetype Power: Once per week, you may use Lesser Planar Ally as a Spell-Like Ability without spending XP. Unlike the ordinary use of the spell, you may decide what sort of being you call (I.e, if you want to summon a Succubus, you will get a Succubus).


Master Summoner

Lesser Archetype Power: Whenever you cast a Summon X Spell, you may, as a free action, cast the same Summon X Spell again (So, if you cast Summon Monster I, you must cast Summon Monster I again to benefit from this effect). If you do, then you may use the list from the next level up. (So, two Summon Monster I spells gives access to the Summon monster II list. Two SM II spells gives access to the SM III List and two SM III spells gives access to the SM IV list).

You cannot use this ability in conjunction with the "X from a lower list" option.

Moderate Archetype Power: You gain a bonus to your Caster Level equal to (half?) your Cha Mod, but only when casting a Conjuration(Summoning) Spell or when casting Magic Circle to use as a trap for Lesser Planar Binding (See below).

Greater Archetype Power: Once per week, you may use Lesser Planar Binding as a Spell-Like ability. You must still use spell slots to cast Magic Circle Against (X) and Dimensional Anchor to create the trap. You must still offer rewards and the like to the creature you summon.

[Gnorman]

A few points:

1. Large elementals may break the curve, as they are generally superior to creatures found even on SM IV's list.

2. Celestial/Fiendish Specialist's lesser archetype power feels kind of lackluster.

3. I'd keep the Master Summoner's caster level bonus to half Charisma, given that the Summoner uses Charisma as a primary stat. Otherwise it gets a bit out of hand and is basically free Extend on all summoning spells (I suppose it also makes them harder to dispel). I've admittedly given out free Extend to one archetype, but it was limited in scope and didn't kick in until level 6.

But other than those admittedly very minor, nitpicky points, good revisions!

[Sgt. Cookie]

A few points:

1. Large elementals may break the curve, as they are generally superior to creatures found even on SM IV's list.

Not really sure what to replace it with, though. Suggestions?


2. Celestial/Fiendish Specialist's lesser archetype power feels kind of lackluster.

I'm thinking about replacing it with the Half Celestial/Fiendish template. That work better?


3. I'd keep the Master Summoner's caster level bonus to half Charisma, given that the Summoner uses Charisma as a primary stat. Otherwise it gets a bit out of hand and is basically free Extend on all summoning spells (I suppose it also makes them harder to dispel). I've admittedly given out free Extend to one archetype, but it was limited in scope and didn't kick in until level 6.

Half Cha mod it is!


EDIT: As a side note, are there any other classes that you think Dismiss (AKA: Dispel Summoned Creature) could be added to? I only ask so that, when I get round to posting E6 Summoner V2, I can include those classes in spell description.

[Gnorman]

Not really sure what to replace it with, though. Suggestions?

What about mephits?


I'm thinking about replacing it with the Half Celestial/Fiendish template. That work better?

I like the idea, but it might be a bit much at low levels - the damage reduction alone is pretty problematic. The image of a summoner calling up a Desecrate-casting crocodile with bat wings or a feathery, evil-detecting bison is almost too good to pass up though. I'd say maybe make it the Moderate ability and move the Moderate to Lesser, but then the current Moderate ability comes online way too early. It's still nice to have, but you don't run into alignment-based damage reduction until later levels.


Half Cha mod it is!

I don't think full Cha mod would break anything terribly, but I'd just err on the side of keeping it more toned down. Half Cha is still a nice bonus! But this is all personal opinion, no need to take my advice on it if you disagree.


EDIT: As a side note, are there any other classes that you think Dismiss (AKA: Dispel Summoned Creature) could be added to? I only ask so that, when I get round to posting E6 Summoner V2, I can include those classes in spell description.

Dismiss would probably be most appropriate for a Black or a White Mage, as they're the classes with the biggest focus on planar summoning. I've actually been toying with removing Summon Monster spells from the Red and Blue Mages, to sort of stake a thematic claim for the Black/White Mages in that regard. Besides, the Blue Mage not being able to summon chaotic creatures just feels weird.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Alrighty, then, here we have: SUMMONER V2!



The Summoner


Hit Die: 1d6
Class Skills: Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, Knowledge (All except Nobility and Royalty and Architecture and Engineering), Listen, Ride, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Use Magic Device
Skill Points: 4 + Int per level (4x at 1st)



Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd


1st
+0
+0
+2
+2
Archetype Power (Lesser), Spellcasting, Companion
5
4
—
—


2nd
+1
+0
+3
+3
Augment Summoning, Quick Summon
5
5
—
—


3rd
+2
+1
+3
+3
Archetype Power (Moderate)
5
5
4
—


4th
+3
+1
+4
+4
Extended Summoning
5
6
5
—


5th
+3
+1
+4
+4
Summoned Buff
5
6
5
3


6th
+4
+2
+5
+5
Archetype Power (Greater), Swift Summoning
5
6
6
4




Proficiencies: The Summoner is proficient with light armour and simple weapons. He does not suffer from arcane failure while in light armour.

Archetype Power: At 1st level, the Summoner chooses an archetype from the following list. Once made, the choice is final. Each archetype offers different abilities related to summoned creatures.

Spellcasting: The Summoner casts arcane spells from a specialized list, which is included below. A Summoner need not prepare spells ahead of time - he may spontaneously cast any spell on his list from the appropriate slot. He still requires eight hours of rest to refresh his spells. His sole casting stat is Charisma, which dictates both the DC of his spells and his bonus spells. To cast a spell, the Summoner must have a Charisma score equal to 10 + the level of spell in question.

Any Buffing spell (See Summoned Buff) ignores the Spell Resistance (If any) and/or other immunities of your summoned creatures. Mindless creatures cannot be affected by Mind Affecting abilities, however. Additionally, if a Buffing Spell has a Range of Personal (Such as Entropic Shield), it may be cast as Touch range spell, instead.

Companion (Su): Select a creature from either the Summon Monster list or Summon Nature's Ally list. Once made, this choice cannot be changed, except when you get access to a higher level list. The chosen creature becomes your Companion. Anything added via an Archetype (Such as Elemental Summoner's Moderate power) are eligible to become Companions.

If your Companion has less Hit Dice than you do class levels, then your Companion gains extra Hit Dice equal to the difference. Your Companion, if intelligent, possesses the same Alignment as you. Your Companion is loyal to you and follows your instructions without question, even if you do not share a language. Since your Companion cannot be killed, well permanently killed, it has no qualms about acting on dangerous or life-threatening orders.

Your Companion is summoned as a Standard Action and lasts indefinitely. You also summon the same creature each time, although you may release a particular creature from service (Obtaining a new one is as simple as recovering spells for the night). Once summoned, your Companion may enter Anti-Magic fields and the like but cannot be summoned within them. Your Companion can be the target of a Dispel or Dismiss spell, but can be resummoned the next round. You may dismiss your Companion as a free action. If your companion is killed, it reforms after an hour.

This ability is treated as a Conjuration (Summoning) Spell with a level equal to the highest level Summon Monster spell you can cast. As such, it can benefit from feats such as Augment Summoning that normally only affect actual spells.

Augment Summoning: At second level, a Summoner gets the Augment Summoning feat for free, regardless of whether he qualifies.

Quick Summoning (Ex): At second level, all Conjuration (Summoning) Spells have a Casting time of a Standard Action, rather than 1 Round.

Extended Summoning (Ex): At fourth level, all of a Summoner's Conjuration (Summoning) spells are Extended automatically without using a higher level slot.

Summoned Buff (Ex): Whenever you cast a Summon X spell or summon your Companion you may, as a Free Action, cast a Buffing spell (Defined as any spell that grants a bonus to Ability Scores, skill checks, attack rolls, saves, damage rolls, grants temporary HP or grants a Miss Chance. Magic Weapon and Magic Fang, and the Greater versions, also count as Buffing spells.) on them. If the Buffing Spell has multiple targets, such as Good Hope, but you only summon one creature, then you may utilise these extra targets on other allies. If you summon multiple creatures, but cast a Buffing spell that cannot target all of them, then only some of them gain the benefits of the spell.

Swift Summon (Ex): At sixth level, all Conjuration (Summoning) Spells can be cast as a Move action, or as a Free action as part of a Move. (This also includes your Companion).

Summoner Spell List:
0: Detect Magic, Guidance, Message, Prestidigitation, Read Magic, Resistance, Virtue
1st: Bless, Comprehend Languages, Entropic Shield, Mage Armour, Magic Fang, Magic Weapon, Mount, Protection from Good/Evil/Chaos/Law, Remove Fear, Shield of Faith, Summon Monster I, Summon Nature's Ally I
2nd: Aid, Bear's Endurance, Blur, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Dismiss*, Eagle's Splendour, Fox's Cunning, Heroism Owl's Wisdom, Rage, Resist Energy, Status, Summon Monster II, Summon Nature's Ally II, Summon Swarm, Tongues
3rd: Dimensional Anchor, Displacement, Good Hope, Haste, Keen Edge, Magic Circle against Good/Evil/Chaos/Law, Magic Fang (Greater), Magic Vestment, Magic Weapon (Greater), Phantom Steed, Prayer, Protection from Energy, Summon Monster III, Summon Nature's Ally III

*New Spell:


Dismiss
Conjuration

Level: Black Mage 2, Summoner 2, White Mage 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 Standard Action
Range: Medium
Target: One Summoned creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: No
Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions like a Targeted Dispel Magic, except as mentioned here: You may only affect Creatures summoned with a Conjuration(Summoning) effect and you gain a +4 bonus to the check.

If multiple creatures are summoned via one spell, such as via the "1d3 from the lower list" option, then you only need to successfully dismiss one creature from the group to dismiss all of them.

Dismiss can be used to Counterspell any Conjuration(Summoning) spell.




Archetypes


Elemental Summoner

Lesser Archetype Power: Any Celestial/Fiendish creatures you summon via Summon Monster instead have the following Template applied:

Elemental Creature:

Elemental Creature is an Inherited Template that can be applied to any of the following:aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, plant, or vermin

Size and Type: The creature's size is unchanged. The creature's Type changes to Elemental and gains the Air/Earth/Fire/Water subtype as appropriate. If the Elemental Creature is found on the Material Plane, it gains the Extraplanar subtype.

Hit Dice: Change to d8s.

Speed: Air Elemental Creatures have a Fly Speed of 100ft (Perfect Manuverability).

Water Elemental Creatures have a Swim Speed of 90ft.

Special Attacks: An Elemental creature gets certain special attacks, depending on its subtype.

Air:

Air Mastery (Ex): Airborne creatures take a -1 penalty on attack and damage rolls against an Air Elemental Creature.

Earth:

Earth Mastery (Ex): An Earth Elemental Creature gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls if both it and its foe are touching the ground. If an opponent is airborne or waterborne, the elemental takes a -4 penalty on attack and damage rolls.

Push (Ex): An Earth Elemental Creature can start a bull rush maneuver without provoking an attack of opportunity. The combat modifiers given in Earth Mastery, above, also apply to the elemental’s opposed Strength checks.

Fire:

Fire Damage (Ex): A Fire Elemental Creature's natural attacks deal extra Fire Damage, depending on their Hit Dice:
0-3HD: 1d4 Fire Damage.
4-7HD: 1d6 Fire Damage.

Burn (Ex): Those hit by a Fire Elemental’s natural attacks also must succeed on a Reflex save or catch on fire. The flame burns for 1d4 rounds. Save DC 10 + 1/2 HD + Con mod. A burning creature can take a move action to put out the flame.

Creatures hitting a Fire Elemental Creature with natural weapons or unarmed attacks take fire damage as though hit by the elemental’s attack, and also catch on fire unless they succeed on a Reflex save.

Water:

Water Mastery (Ex): A Water Elemental creature gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls if both it and its opponent are touching water. If the opponent or the elemental is touching the ground, the elemental takes a -4 penalty on attack and damage rolls.

Drench (Ex): The Water Elemental Creature’s touch puts out torches, campfires, exposed lanterns, and other open flames of nonmagical origin if these are of Large size or smaller. The creature can dispel magical fire it touches as dispel magic (caster level equals Elemental Creature’s HD).

Special Qualities:

All Elemental Creatures have Darkvision out to 60ft. If they already possess Darkvision, use whichever one is better.

Earth Elemental Creatures also the following:

Earth Glide (Ex): An Earth Elemental Creature can glide through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other signs of its presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing a burrowing Earth Elemental Creature flings the elemental back 30 feet, stunning the creature for 1 round unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.

Abilities:

Air: Dex +6

Earth: Str +6, Dex -2

Fire: Dex +2

Water: Str + 4, Con +2



The Elemental Summoner decides what type of Elemental Creature is summoned at the time of casting.

Your Companion also has the Elemental Creature template, instead of the Celestial/Fiendish. Each time you summon your Companion, you may apply a different Elemental Creature template.

Moderate Archetype Power: Add Small Elemental, Medium Elemental and Mephit (Air, Fire, Earth and Water only) to the Summon Monster I, II and III lists respectively.

Greater Archetype Power: Whenever the Elemental Summoner has summoned an Elemental Creature (Including his Companion), Elemental or Mephit, he may, as a Standard action, change what Elemental type it is.



Minionmancer

Lesser Archetype Power: Whenever you cast a Summon X Spell, you may, as a Free Action, cast another Summon X Spell. These do not have to be the same spell or even the same level. (So, you could cast Summon Monster II and then, as a free action, cast Summon Nature's Ally I.)

Moderate Archetype Power: Instead of the "1d3 from [Prior Level's List]" effect of the 2nd and 3rd level Summon X spells, you can summon 1d4+1 creatures.

Instead of the "1d4+1 from the 1st level list" effect from the Summon X III spells, you can summon 1d6+2 creatures.

Greater Archetype Power: Whenever you summon your Companion, you instead summon two.



Celestial/Fiendish Specialist

Good summoners cannot be Fiendish Specialists and Evil summoners cannot be Celestial Specialists. Neutral Summoners can decide to be either. If your Alignment changes, then so does your Specialist type. (For example, a Neutral Fiendish Specialist becomes Good, he becomes a Celestial Specialist, instead.) As such, all Fiendish Creatures are instead Celestial Creatures for a Celestial Specialist (vice versa for a Fiendish Specialist). This also applies to your Companion.

Lesser Archetype Power: The Natural Weapons of any Celestial/Fiendish creature you summon are treated as Good/Evil weapons for the purposes of overcoming Damage Reduction. In addition, whenever a Celestial creature attacks an Evil one (And vice versa for Fiendish creatures) with its natural weapons, they deal damage as if they were one size larger.

Moderate Archetype Power: Instead of the Celestial/Fiendish template, your summoned creatures have the Half-Celestial/Fiendish template instead. This also applies to your companion.

Greater Archetype Power: Once per week, you may use Lesser Planar Ally as a Spell-Like Ability. Unlike the ordinary use of the spell, you may decide what sort of being you call (I.e, if you want to summon a Succubus, you will get a Succubus).


Master Summoner

Lesser Archetype Power: Whenever you cast a Summon X Spell, you may, as a free action, cast the same Summon X Spell again (So, if you cast Summon Monster I, you must cast Summon Monster I again to benefit from this effect). If you do, then you may use the list from the next level up. (So, two Summon Monster I spells gives access to the Summon monster II list. Two SM II spells gives access to the SM III List and two SM III spells gives access to the SM IV list).

You cannot use this ability in conjunction with the "X from a lower list" option.

Moderate Archetype Power: You gain a bonus to your Caster Level equal to half your Charisma Modifier, but only when casting a Conjuration(Summoning) Spell or when casting Magic Circle to use as a trap for Lesser Planar Binding (See below).

Greater Archetype Power: Once per week, you may use Lesser Planar Binding as a Spell-Like ability. You must still use spell slots to cast Magic Circle Against (X) and Dimensional Anchor to create the trap. You must still offer rewards and the like to the creature you summon.

[Gnorman]

The mark of a good class is when you can't wait to play it. The mark of a great class is when you can't wait to play it, but don't, because you can't decide which archetype you like best. I think you definitely brought the Elemental Summoner and Celestial/Fiendish Specialist up the same level as the other archetypes, and now for the life of me can't choose one I like best.

Excellent work, Sgt. Cookie. I'll update the front page to link to Version 2.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Noice.

The next thing I'm gonna work on is a FF Style "Blue Mage". That is, someone who nicks the abilities of monsters and uses 'em against 'em.

No name, just yet, but working name is "Ability Thief".


I have some preliminary ideas:


Steal Ability (Su): You may, as a Standard Action, attempt to Steal a Supernatural ability of an opponent. You may not Steal Supernatural abilities that are gained via Class levels. In order to Steal a Supernatural ability, your Ability Thief level must be equal to or greater than the Hit Dice of creature you are attempting to Steal from. Your opponent must also be within 100ft of you and possess a Supernatural Ability. If they do not, then the attempt is wasted.

If you are able to Steal an Ability, then your opponent must make a Will Save against a DC of (10 + Half your Level + Int Mod). If your opponent fails, you Steal one Supernatural Ability of your choice and may use it on the next round. If an Ability is dependent on a Natural Attack, then you must possess that Natural Attack in order to use the ability.

You may only have a number of stolen Abilities equal to your level. If you would go over your maximum, then you may decide which ability to lose.


??? (Ex): At Sixth level, your mastery over stolen abilities improves. You may treat your Ability Thief level as if it were (Int Mod/2) higher, for the purposes of determining what Abilities you can steal.



I only have two or three Archetype ideas, so far. One would focus you into a particular Type, increasing what Hit Dice you can steal as well as boosting the abilities themselves. The second is letting you grab some Natural Attacks and abilities related to them. The third would let you nab Extraordinary abilities.


Thoughts?

[OzzyKP]

I tweaked/beefed up my earlier concept for the Charlatan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14708162&postcount=365) and am reposting it, hopefully it'll get some feedback this time here are my proposed Charlatan powers:

Lesser Archetype Power: Creating a disguise only take 1d6 minutes of work and a charlatan can always take 10 on Disguise, Bluff and Sleight of Hand. A charlatan takes no penalties for impersonating a different race, gender or age. Can feint as a swift action and gains the Assume Quirk (http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/assume-quirk--3276/) skill trick.

Moderate Archetype Power: When using sleight of hand as a perform skill (juggling, Legerdemain, etc) can fascinate as a bard. Gain free Hidden Blade (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/hidden-blade--3290/) skill trick. The charlatan can disguise herself as one size category larger with no penalty if she takes 10x the time to create the disguise.

Greater Archetype Power: Once per day a charlatan can make use of one of the following abilities:

Second Impression: If an observer sees through your disguise with a successful Spot check, you can (as an immediate action) attempt a Bluff check to convince him that he's mistaken. Use the observer's Spot check result as the DC for your Bluff check; if you succeed, the observer ignores the evidence of his own senses in favor of what your disguise attempts to show. You must be aware of the observer's discovery in order to use this trick; for example, you can't use it against someone viewing you secretly, nor can you use it against someone who sees through your disguise but keeps that information secret. When in doubt, the DM should allow a character to use this trick if she has any reason to fear that her cover has been blown.

Deadly Legerdemain: Use her Hidden Blade skill trick to make a free attack on a target she has fascinated. No one, including the victim, knows where the attack came from, and combat does not begin. The charlatan hides the weapon used in the attack as a free action after the attack. The attack must be made in a public place with other people nearby. If the charlatan makes a successful bluff check, she can direct blame for the attack onto another person nearby, thus framing them for the attack. A failed bluff check results in the victim of the attack (and all onlookers) assigning equal blame to all present, including the charlatan.

We Go Way Back, You Can Trust Me: When successfully impersonating a friend or family member of the target the charlatan can add their disguise modifier to a diplomacy skill roll for adjusting a target's attitude, and can add their bluff skill modifier to a diplomacy skill roll for requesting the target take an action.

If you think it should be further tweaked, here are some more ideas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?250820-Gnorman-s-Complete-E6-Compendium&p=14679241#post14679241).

[Sgt. Cookie]

Let's see what people think of this:



The Monster Mimic


Hit Die: 1d8
Class Skills: Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, Knowledge (All except Nobility and Royalty and Architecture and Engineering), Listen, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot
Skill Points: 4 + Int per level (4x at 1st)



Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special


1st
+1
+0
+2
+2
Archetype Power (Lesser), Mimic Ability


2nd
+2
+0
+3
+3
Knowledge of Monsters, Mimic Natural Weapon


3rd
+3
+1
+3
+3
Archetype Power (Moderate), Ability Focus


4th
+4
+1
+4
+4
Mimic Form


5th
+5
+1
+4
+4
Copycat


6th
+6/+1
+2
+5
+5
Archetype Power (Greater), Master Mimic




Proficiencies: A Monster Mimic is proficient with Light Armour, Medium Armour, Simple and Martial weapons and Light Shields. A Monster Mimic is also proficient with any Natural Weapons it gains via this class.

Mimic Ability (Su): You may, as a Standard Action, attempt to Mimic a Supernatural ability of an opponent. You may not Mimic Supernatural abilities that are gained via Class levels. In order to Mimic a Supernatural ability, your Monster Mimic level must be equal to or greater than the Hit Dice of creature you are attempting to Mimic. Your opponent must also be within 100ft of you and possess a Supernatural Ability. If they do not, then the attempt is wasted.

If you are able to Mimic an Ability, then your opponent must make a Will Save against a DC of (10 + Half your Level + Int Mod). If your opponent fails, you Mimic one Supernatural Ability of your choice and it is added to your repertoire permanently and may be used next round. If an Ability is dependent on a Natural Attack, then you must possess that Natural Attack in order to use the ability. (As may be the case with Mimic Form.) You use the Mimicked Ability as if you were the original creature, except as mentioned here. A Willing creature does not need to make a Save, of course.

If a Mimicked ability requires you to be in a specific "form" (Such as a Bralani's Whirlwind Blast), you can ignore that requirement.

If an Ability has a Save DC, then you may use your Intelligence in place of whatever Ability Score it normally uses and your Monster Mimic level in place of Hit Dice. (Well, HALF your MM level, as Save DCs use half Hit Dice.) Obviously, you do not get any "Racial Bonus" to the Save. Similarly, if an Ability is "As [Spell X] (Caster Level Y)", then your Monster Mimic level replaces the Caster Level.

All Mimicked Abilities are used as a Standard Action (Even if the original ability explicitly has a lower one), unless the Ability explicitly has a higher one, in which case, you use that. If an Ability has an explicit number of uses per day, then you must abide by that. Otherwise, it may be used at-will.

You may only Mimic a number of Abilities equal to your Monster Mimic level. If you would go over your maximum, then you may decide which ability to lose. You may not have the same ability multiple times. (Note, all "Breath Weapon" abilities are considered to be the same ability. You can replace what SORT of Breath Weapon you have, of course.)

Let me first say this: Yes, I'm well aware of the kinds of broken shenanigans that can come of this ability.

Now, I COULD go and create an exhaustive list of all Supernatural Abilities that can be Mimicked. But I'm not going to do that, as you may decide otherwise. So, instead, I'm going to leave it up to YOU (Both Player and DM) to decide if a particular ability is broken in the hands of a player. (I will however, make it a little easier and write a blacklist of abilities that I think are too powerful. I won't bother with anything beyond CR 12, however, as that's generally the extreme limit of what the PCs can fight in an E6 game.)

For example the Blink ability of a Blink Dog or the Petrifying Gaze ability of a Basilisk or Medusa. Both of these are stupidly powerful, so DM don't be afraid to say "That would be broken, I'm sorry" and Players, don't be upset or angry if the DM says that. If you ARE the type of person who would get angry over it, then don't play this class. Seriously, pick something else. ANYTHING else. Save your group the trouble.

On the other hand, some abilities AS-IS that are too strong can easily be toned down. The Blink Dog, for instance, also has Dimension Door. As-written, it's a little strong. But if we change it ever so slightly, say make it Close range rather than Long, it becomes an interesting thing to have. So, don't whip out the ban-hammer EVERY time, if toning an ability down would make it more PC-Viable, then for the love of the Random Number God, tone it down first.

One last thing to note, some abilities can come from creatures that can have various "versions", for lack of a better term. For example, an Air Elemental's Whirlwind ability differs depending on whether it's a Small elemental or Medium or a True Dragon's Breath Weapon. Because of this, I would highly, HIGHLY recommend that if your Effective Mimic Level increases, then the ability automatically upgrades. For instance, if you Mimicked the Whirlwind ability of a Small Air Elemental (HD 2), when your EML becomes 4, then it upgrades to the Whirlwind ability of a Medium Air Elemental (HD 4). (Shocker Lizards are similar. A Medium Monster Mimic counts as two Shocker Lizards (Therefore gets Lethal Shock), while a Small Monster Mimic counts as one.)

Anyway, with that out of the way, the Ability Blacklist (My opinion of course, your's may differ.)


I will say again. This is NOT a "You can have these abilities" list. This is the opposite. This is an "You may not, EVER, have these abilities" list.

Aboleth: Enslave (Dominate Person effect.)

Alip: Madness, Wisdom Drain.

Archon Traits: Magic Circle Against Evil, Teleport, Tongues.

Archon (Hound): Change Shape. (Possible to Nerf it, true. But the Monster Mimic has Mimic Form. So...)

Avoral: True Seeing, Lay on Hands. (Fear Aura is only 1/day and Speak with Animals is... Speak with Animals. So...)

Barghest: Feed, Change Shape. (I REALLY don't need to explain why. Right!?)

Basilisk: Stone Gaze

Beholder (And Gauth): Eye Rays, Antimagic Cone

Blink Dog: Blink

Bodak: Death Gaze

Bralani: Alternate Form, Tongues (Neither's broken per sey. They're just redundant.)

Chaos Beast: Corporeal Instability

Choker: Quickness (Obvious, really.)

Cockatrice: Petrification.

Couatl: Change Shape, Ethereal Jaunt, Telepathy

Demon Traits: Telepathy

Demon (Babu): Protective Slime (Not because it's broken, more because it's a headache to figure out.)

Demon (Bebilith): Plane Shift

Demon (Quasit): Alternate Form

Demon (Retriever): Eye Rays

Demon (Succubus): Change Shape, Tongues

Devil Traits: Telepathy

Devil (Barbed Devil): Barbed Defence

Devil (Chain Devil): Dancing Chains

Devil (Erinyes): True Seeing

Devil (Imp): Alternate Form

Devourer: Trap Essence, Spell Deflection

Doppelganger: Detect Thoughts, Change Shape

Dragon, True: Alternate Form

Dragon, True (Silver Dragon): Cloudwalking

Dragon Turtle: Dragon Turtle Breath Weapon

Dryad: Tree Dependent (Banned not because it's powerful. But because only an idiot would Mimic this.)

Ethereal Filcher/Maruder: Ethereal Jaunt

Formian Taskmaster: Dominate Monster

Frost Worm Trill, Frost Worm Breath Weapon

Ghaele: Gaze, Alternate Form, Protective Aura

Ghost: All of them. (Too many to list).

Ghoul/Ghast: Ghoul Fever

Golem (Clay Golem): Haste

Gorgon: Gorgon Breath Weapon

Hag (Green Hag): Weakness

Hag (Sea Hag): Horrific Appearance

Invisible Stalker: Natural Invisibility (Do I really have to explain why? DO I!?)

Lamia: Wisdom Drain

Lammasu: Magic Circle Against Evil

Leonal: All except Speak with Animals. (I'm not gonna lie. At this point, I can't be arsed to write out EVERY blacklisted ability if something has multiple.)

Lich: All

Lycanthrope: All

Medusa: Petrifying Gaze

Mohrg: Paralyzing Touch, Create Spawn

Mummy: Mummy Rot

Naga: All

Night Hag: All

Nightmare: Astral Projection, Etherealness

Nymph: All

Ogre Mage: All

Phantom Fungus: Greater Invisibility

Phase Spider: Ethereal Jaunt

Phasm: Alternate Form

Psudodragon: Telepathy

Rakshasa: Detect Thoughts

Rast: Paralyzing Gaze, Flight

Ravid: Animate Objects, Flight

Satyr: Pipes

Shadow: All

Shadow Mastiff: Shadow Blend

Shield Guardian: Find Master (Not because it's broken, of course. But because it's useless.)

Spectre: Create Spawn

Sprite (Grig): Fiddle

Unicorn: Magic Circle against evil

Vampire: All, except Energy Drain

Vargouille: Kiss

Wight: Create Spawn

Wraith: All, except Unnatural Aura

Xill: Planewalk

Yeth Hound: Flight



These are nerfs to abilities that I personally would make if I were DMing this class. Again, this is all my opinion.

Assassin Vine: Entangle: Usable a number of times per day equal to your Monster Mimic level. (For ease of writing, I will use "Class Level/Day" as shorthand for this nerf.)

Blink Dog: Dimension Door: Short Range, rather than Long. (It already has another Nerf, due to the fact that all Mimicked will be at least a Standard Action.)

Cloaker: Shadow Shift: Pick ONE effect.

Devil (Barbed Devil): Fear: Class Level/Day

Devil (Bone Devil): Fear Aura: Class Level/Day




Knowledge of Monsters: The Monster Mimic gets an untyped +2 bonus to all Knowledge Checks (Except Nobility and Royalty, and Architecture and Engineering) but only when attempting to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities.

Mimic Natural Weapon (Su): Whenever you use Mimic Ability, you may instead attempt to Mimic a Natural Weapon of the target.

As this ability is Supernatural in nature, you do not have to physically possess the correct appendage. Instead, whenever you make an attack with a Natural Weapon, a sort of apparition appears to make the attack. You must still be in a position to ACTUALLY attack, though.

You may only have a number of Natural Weapons equal to (Class Level/2), but you may decide which Natural Weapon is the Primary each time you attack.

This class ability allows you to take the Multiattack feat, even if you don't have three Natural Weapons.

Ability Focus: You gain the feat Ability Focus as a Bonus Feat. If you already have this feat, you instead gain any other feat for which you qualify.

At the start of each day, you may change what ability Ability Focus applies to.

Mimic Form (Su): Whenever you use Mimic Ability, you may instead attempt to Mimic the creature's physical appearance.

You may only have one form at level 4. You gain a second at level 6.

This effect is partially illusionary, but creatures cannot "disbelieve" your illusion. Creatures with True Seeing see you for what you really are, though. However, you gain the Movement Modes and any Languages of the creature you're Mimicking. If the creature possesses no language natively, you are still able to communicate with other creatures of the same kind.

In addition, you also gain the Extraordinary abilities and size of the form you're mimicking. But, as before, you can only Mimic the form of a creature who's Hit Dice is equal to or less than your Monster Mimic level.

If you enter an Anti-magic field, you "revert" back to your ordinary form.

Copycat (Ex): Select an Ally who has acted since your last turn. You replicate any mundane actions they did, using whatever modifiers they did (regardless of whether or not you even qualify for the modifier), except you may select new targets. You may not replicate "passive" effects, or anything that is in response to an enemy attack.

For example, if a Brawler ally moved his full speed (Movement bonus included) and Full attacked as a standard action with his unarmed damage bonus, then you could the EXACT SAME THING. Even if you're wearing armour (And therefore cannot normally benefit from Faster than the Naked Eye.). But if, say, a Zealot activated an aura, you could not replicate the Aura.

Master Mimic (Su): ???



So, there's the basic overview. No Archetypes, just yet, but a good, solid base I say. So, any thoughts?

[Gnorman]

I tweaked/beefed up my earlier concept for the Charlatan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14708162&postcount=365) and am reposting it, hopefully it'll get some feedback this time here are my proposed Charlatan powers:

Lesser Archetype Power: Creating a disguise only take 1d6 minutes of work and a charlatan can always take 10 on Disguise, Bluff and Sleight of Hand. A charlatan takes no penalties for impersonating a different race, gender or age. Can feint as a swift action and gains the Assume Quirk (http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/assume-quirk--3276/) skill trick.

Moderate Archetype Power: When using sleight of hand as a perform skill (juggling, Legerdemain, etc) can fascinate as a bard. Gain free Hidden Blade (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/hidden-blade--3290/) skill trick. The charlatan can disguise herself as one size category larger with no penalty if she takes 10x the time to create the disguise.

Greater Archetype Power: Once per day a charlatan can make use of one of the following abilities:

Second Impression: If an observer sees through your disguise with a successful Spot check, you can (as an immediate action) attempt a Bluff check to convince him that he's mistaken. Use the observer's Spot check result as the DC for your Bluff check; if you succeed, the observer ignores the evidence of his own senses in favor of what your disguise attempts to show. You must be aware of the observer's discovery in order to use this trick; for example, you can't use it against someone viewing you secretly, nor can you use it against someone who sees through your disguise but keeps that information secret. When in doubt, the DM should allow a character to use this trick if she has any reason to fear that her cover has been blown.

Deadly Legerdemain: Use her Hidden Blade skill trick to make a free attack on a target she has fascinated. No one, including the victim, knows where the attack came from, and combat does not begin. The charlatan hides the weapon used in the attack as a free action after the attack. The attack must be made in a public place with other people nearby. If the charlatan makes a successful bluff check, she can direct blame for the attack onto another person nearby, thus framing them for the attack. A failed bluff check results in the victim of the attack (and all onlookers) assigning equal blame to all present, including the charlatan.

We Go Way Back, You Can Trust Me: When successfully impersonating a friend or family member of the target the charlatan can add their disguise modifier to a diplomacy skill roll for adjusting a target's attitude, and can add their bluff skill modifier to a diplomacy skill roll for requesting the target take an action.

If you think it should be further tweaked, here are some more ideas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?250820-Gnorman-s-Complete-E6-Compendium&p=14679241#post14679241).

I dig it. I'm admittedly not very good at coming up with interesting out-of-combat abilities, so I'm glad someone else is. I think these are pretty reasonable abilities, and I like the role of the Charlatan as "rogue in plain sight." I don't know how explicitly magical you want to get with this (seemingly not) but a high-level ability for an archetype like this might be to be able to actually change shape, a la Alter Self. I've tried to take most shapeshifting effects out of spell lists, or restrict them very narrowly, but I think this is a situation where it both makes sense and wouldn't be terribly off the charts, power-wise.


Let's see what people think of this:



The Monster Mimic


Hit Die: 1d8
Class Skills: Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, Knowledge (All except Nobility and Royalty and Architecture and Engineering), Listen, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot
Skill Points: 4 + Int per level (4x at 1st)



Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special


1st
+1
+0
+2
+2
Archetype Power (Lesser), Mimic Ability


2nd
+2
+0
+3
+3
Knowledge of Monsters, Mimic Natural Weapon


3rd
+3
+1
+3
+3
Archetype Power (Moderate), Ability Focus


4th
+4
+1
+4
+4
Mimic Form


5th
+5
+1
+4
+4
Copycat


6th
+6/+1
+2
+5
+5
Archetype Power (Greater), Master Mimic




Proficiencies: A Monster Mimic is proficient with Light Armour, Medium Armour, Simple and Martial weapons and Light Shields. A Monster Mimic is also proficient with any Natural Weapons it gains via this class.

Mimic Ability (Su): You may, as a Standard Action, attempt to Mimic a Supernatural ability of an opponent. You may not Mimic Supernatural abilities that are gained via Class levels. In order to Mimic a Supernatural ability, your Monster Mimic level must be equal to or greater than the Hit Dice of creature you are attempting to Mimic. Your opponent must also be within 100ft of you and possess a Supernatural Ability. If they do not, then the attempt is wasted.

If you are able to Mimic an Ability, then your opponent must make a Will Save against a DC of (10 + Half your Level + Int Mod). If your opponent fails, you Mimic one Supernatural Ability of your choice and it is added to your repertoire permanently and may be used next round. If an Ability is dependent on a Natural Attack, then you must possess that Natural Attack in order to use the ability. (As may be the case with Mimic Form.) You use the Mimicked Ability as if you were the original creature, except as mentioned here. A Willing creature does not need to make a Save, of course.

If a Mimicked ability requires you to be in a specific "form" (Such as a Bralani's Whirlwind Blast), you can ignore that requirement.

If an Ability has a Save DC, then you may use your Intelligence in place of whatever Ability Score it normally uses and your Monster Mimic level in place of Hit Dice. (Well, HALF your MM level, as Save DCs use half Hit Dice.) Obviously, you do not get any "Racial Bonus" to the Save. Similarly, if an Ability is "As [Spell X] (Caster Level Y)", then your Monster Mimic level replaces the Caster Level.

All Mimicked Abilities are used as a Standard Action (Even if the original ability explicitly has a lower one), unless the Ability explicitly has a higher one, in which case, you use that. If an Ability has an explicit number of uses per day, then you must abide by that. Otherwise, it may be used at-will.

You may only Mimic a number of Abilities equal to your Monster Mimic level. If you would go over your maximum, then you may decide which ability to lose. You may not have the same ability multiple times. (Note, all "Breath Weapon" abilities are considered to be the same ability. You can replace what SORT of Breath Weapon you have, of course.)

Let me first say this: Yes, I'm well aware of the kinds of broken shenanigans that can come of this ability.

Now, I COULD go and create an exhaustive list of all Supernatural Abilities that can be Mimicked. But I'm not going to do that, as you may decide otherwise. So, instead, I'm going to leave it up to YOU (Both Player and DM) to decide if a particular ability is broken in the hands of a player. (I will however, make it a little easier and write a blacklist of abilities that I think are too powerful. I won't bother with anything beyond CR 12, however, as that's generally the extreme limit of what the PCs can fight in an E6 game.)

For example the Blink ability of a Blink Dog or the Petrifying Gaze ability of a Basilisk or Medusa. Both of these are stupidly powerful, so DM don't be afraid to say "That would be broken, I'm sorry" and Players, don't be upset or angry if the DM says that. If you ARE the type of person who would get angry over it, then don't play this class. Seriously, pick something else. ANYTHING else. Save your group the trouble.

On the other hand, some abilities AS-IS that are too strong can easily be toned down. The Blink Dog, for instance, also has Dimension Door. As-written, it's a little strong. But if we change it ever so slightly, say make it Close range rather than Long, it becomes an interesting thing to have. So, don't whip out the ban-hammer EVERY time, if toning an ability down would make it more PC-Viable, then for the love of the Random Number God, tone it down first.

One last thing to note, some abilities can come from creatures that can have various "versions", for lack of a better term. For example, an Air Elemental's Whirlwind ability differs depending on whether it's a Small elemental or Medium or a True Dragon's Breath Weapon. Because of this, I would highly, HIGHLY recommend that if your Effective Mimic Level increases, then the ability automatically upgrades. For instance, if you Mimicked the Whirlwind ability of a Small Air Elemental (HD 2), when your EML becomes 4, then it upgrades to the Whirlwind ability of a Medium Air Elemental (HD 4). (Shocker Lizards are similar. A Medium Monster Mimic counts as two Shocker Lizards (Therefore gets Lethal Shock), while a Small Monster Mimic counts as one.)

Anyway, with that out of the way, the Ability Blacklist (My opinion of course, your's may differ.)


I will say again. This is NOT a "You can have these abilities" list. This is the opposite. This is an "You may not, EVER, have these abilities" list.

Aboleth: Enslave (Dominate Person effect.)

Alip: Madness, Wisdom Drain.

Archon Traits: Magic Circle Against Evil, Teleport, Tongues.

Archon (Hound): Change Shape. (Possible to Nerf it, true. But the Monster Mimic has Mimic Form. So...)

Avoral: True Seeing, Lay on Hands. (Fear Aura is only 1/day and Speak with Animals is... Speak with Animals. So...)

Barghest: Feed, Change Shape. (I REALLY don't need to explain why. Right!?)

Basilisk: Stone Gaze

Beholder (And Gauth): Eye Rays, Antimagic Cone

Blink Dog: Blink

Bodak: Death Gaze

Bralani: Alternate Form, Tongues (Neither's broken per sey. They're just redundant.)

Chaos Beast: Corporeal Instability

Choker: Quickness (Obvious, really.)

Cockatrice: Petrification.

Couatl: Change Shape, Ethereal Jaunt, Telepathy

Demon Traits: Telepathy

Demon (Babu): Protective Slime (Not because it's broken, more because it's a headache to figure out.)

Demon (Bebilith): Plane Shift

Demon (Quasit): Alternate Form

Demon (Retriever): Eye Rays

Demon (Succubus): Change Shape, Tongues

Devil Traits: Telepathy

Devil (Barbed Devil): Barbed Defence

Devil (Chain Devil): Dancing Chains

Devil (Erinyes): True Seeing

Devil (Imp): Alternate Form

Devourer: Trap Essence, Spell Deflection

Doppelganger: Detect Thoughts, Change Shape

Dragon, True: Alternate Form

Dragon, True (Silver Dragon): Cloudwalking

Dragon Turtle: Dragon Turtle Breath Weapon

Dryad: Tree Dependent (Banned not because it's powerful. But because only an idiot would Mimic this.)

Ethereal Filcher/Maruder: Ethereal Jaunt

Formian Taskmaster: Dominate Monster

Frost Worm Trill, Frost Worm Breath Weapon

Ghaele: Gaze, Alternate Form, Protective Aura

Ghost: All of them. (Too many to list).

Ghoul/Ghast: Ghoul Fever

Golem (Clay Golem): Haste

Gorgon: Gorgon Breath Weapon

Hag (Green Hag): Weakness

Hag (Sea Hag): Horrific Appearance

Invisible Stalker: Natural Invisibility (Do I really have to explain why? DO I!?)

Lamia: Wisdom Drain

Lammasu: Magic Circle Against Evil

Leonal: All except Speak with Animals. (I'm not gonna lie. At this point, I can't be arsed to write out EVERY blacklisted ability if something has multiple.)

Lich: All

Lycanthrope: All

Medusa: Petrifying Gaze

Mohrg: Paralyzing Touch, Create Spawn

Mummy: Mummy Rot

Naga: All

Night Hag: All

Nightmare: Astral Projection, Etherealness

Nymph: All

Ogre Mage: All

Phantom Fungus: Greater Invisibility

Phase Spider: Ethereal Jaunt

Phasm: Alternate Form

Psudodragon: Telepathy

Rakshasa: Detect Thoughts

Rast: Paralyzing Gaze, Flight

Ravid: Animate Objects, Flight

Satyr: Pipes

Shadow: All

Shadow Mastiff: Shadow Blend

Shield Guardian: Find Master (Not because it's broken, of course. But because it's useless.)

Spectre: Create Spawn

Sprite (Grig): Fiddle

Unicorn: Magic Circle against evil

Vampire: All, except Energy Drain

Vargouille: Kiss

Wight: Create Spawn

Wraith: All, except Unnatural Aura

Xill: Planewalk

Yeth Hound: Flight



These are nerfs to abilities that I personally would make if I were DMing this class. Again, this is all my opinion.

Assassin Vine: Entangle: Usable a number of times per day equal to your Monster Mimic level. (For ease of writing, I will use "Class Level/Day" as shorthand for this nerf.)

Blink Dog: Dimension Door: Short Range, rather than Long. (It already has another Nerf, due to the fact that all Mimicked will be at least a Standard Action.)

Cloaker: Shadow Shift: Pick ONE effect.

Devil (Barbed Devil): Fear: Class Level/Day

Devil (Bone Devil): Fear Aura: Class Level/Day




Knowledge of Monsters: The Monster Mimic gets an untyped +2 bonus to all Knowledge Checks (Except Nobility and Royalty, and Architecture and Engineering) but only when attempting to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities.

Mimic Natural Weapon (Su): Whenever you use Mimic Ability, you may instead attempt to Mimic a Natural Weapon of the target.

As this ability is Supernatural in nature, you do not have to physically possess the correct appendage. Instead, whenever you make an attack with a Natural Weapon, a sort of apparition appears to make the attack. You must still be in a position to ACTUALLY attack, though.

You may only have a number of Natural Weapons equal to (Class Level/2), but you may decide which Natural Weapon is the Primary each time you attack.

This class ability allows you to take the Multiattack feat, even if you don't have three Natural Weapons.

Ability Focus: You gain the feat Ability Focus as a Bonus Feat. If you already have this feat, you instead gain any other feat for which you qualify.

At the start of each day, you may change what ability Ability Focus applies to.

Mimic Form (Su): Whenever you use Mimic Ability, you may instead attempt to Mimic the creature's physical appearance.

You may only have one form at level 4. You gain a second at level 6.

This effect is partially illusionary, but creatures cannot "disbelieve" your illusion. Creatures with True Seeing see you for what you really are, though. However, you gain the Movement Modes and any Languages of the creature you're Mimicking. If the creature possesses no language natively, you are still able to communicate with other creatures of the same kind.

In addition, you also gain the Extraordinary abilities and size of the form you're mimicking. But, as before, you can only Mimic the form of a creature who's Hit Dice is equal to or less than your Monster Mimic level.

If you enter an Anti-magic field, you "revert" back to your ordinary form.

Copycat (Ex): Select an Ally who has acted since your last turn. You replicate any mundane actions they did, using whatever modifiers they did (regardless of whether or not you even qualify for the modifier), except you may select new targets. You may not replicate "passive" effects, or anything that is in response to an enemy attack.

For example, if a Brawler ally moved his full speed (Movement bonus included) and Full attacked as a standard action with his unarmed damage bonus, then you could the EXACT SAME THING. Even if you're wearing armour (And therefore cannot normally benefit from Faster than the Naked Eye.). But if, say, a Zealot activated an aura, you could not replicate the Aura.

Master Mimic (Su): ???



So, there's the basic overview. No Archetypes, just yet, but a good, solid base I say. So, any thoughts?

I love the concept, and I think the execution is pretty good under the circumstances - any "Blue Mage" or "Mimic" type class is obviously going to be a pain in the ass to deal with, but I think you did a good job of laying out the problem and suggesting methods of dealing with it. I feel like any other way (like making an explicit spell list, for example) would impinge on the creative potential of the class.

I'm at a loss for archetypes, though. The base class is specific enough that I'm not sure how to narrow it down further. Maybe one archetype might focus on shapeshifting, natural weapons, and getting up close and personal, another might focus on ranged attacks like rays and breath weapons, another might be a support class with better auras, buffs, and healing?

[Sgt. Cookie]

A pretty easy archetype would just be focusing on a particular Type. So, one Monster Mimic could be really good at Mimicking the abilities of Dragons, while another is really good at pretending to be an Undead. On the flip side, you'd find it difficult to mimic abilities that aren't from your preferred type.

So, a Dragon Mimic might be better with its Breath Weapons, but couldn't make heads or tails of an Outsider's abilities.

Mechanically, this would translate to a bonus to your "effective Monster Mimic level", maybe something like +2 or x1.5 MM level, as far as the aforementioned Dragon abilities are concerned, but you'd take a -1 penalty to your MM EL for the Outsider's.

As for a Medium power, maybe something like, I dunno, a more "real" transformation into the creature and the Greater power, you walk around with your chosen Type. Unless it would be detrimental, of course.


Master Mimic, I have an idea for. Just now, actually:

Master Mimic (Su): Select a Type (Not subtype) that either of the creatures you can mimic via Monster Mimic possess.

Your maximum hit points increase by the number of sides on the Type's hit dice. If that Type gains +1 base attack bonus for its first Hit Dice, you gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls. If that class gains a +2 base bonus for its Fortitude, Reflex, or Will saving throws for its first Hit Dice, you gain a +2 bonus on your saving throws of the same kind.

(Why yes, this IS a modified version of Xefas' "Omnicapable Human Spirit Ignition" from the Mythic Human. Hell, he even says "Find mechanics that do what you want and then tweak.". So I don't feel bad about shamelessly stealing it.)




As for other archetypes, not really sure. Those are some good ideas, though.

[OzzyKP]

I dig it. I'm admittedly not very good at coming up with interesting out-of-combat abilities, so I'm glad someone else is. I think these are pretty reasonable abilities, and I like the role of the Charlatan as "rogue in plain sight." I don't know how explicitly magical you want to get with this (seemingly not) but a high-level ability for an archetype like this might be to be able to actually change shape, a la Alter Self. I've tried to take most shapeshifting effects out of spell lists, or restrict them very narrowly, but I think this is a situation where it both makes sense and wouldn't be terribly off the charts, power-wise.

I'm glad you like it. You are right that I've tried to limit the abilities to be non-magical.

Looking over the Alter Self spell the only benefits that can't be had from a perfect disguise skill are this bit (and being instant):

You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

I admit this is a pretty nice bonus (and not over powered), but it seems to be stepping on the toes of Druid/Green Mage shapeshifters. Any other benefit from Alter Self is replicated just fine through Disguise. I'm ok with incorporating Alter Self if you want, but I think it does pretty well without having to do anything magical. I really like the Deadly Legerdemain ability I made, that's one of my favorite parts of the character, I'll boost the number of uses. I like the idea of a character based on three skills and using those three skills together for effects both in and out of combat. It all fits together very well thematically and provides some variety to the character (so it isn't like a tripping character that just does one thing well and that's it). Feinting as a swift action is pretty good for combat because the rogue can basically (if rolls are successful) use sneak attack damage every round. Disguises are good for out of combat. There are social bonuses too. How about this as a boost:


Lesser Archetype Power: Creating a disguise only take 1d4 minutes of work and a charlatan can always take 10 on Disguise, Bluff and Sleight of Hand. A charlatan takes no penalties for impersonating a different race, gender or age, disguising as one size category larger has no penalties but takes 5x as long to create the disguise. Can feint as a swift action and gains the Assume Quirk (http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/assume-quirk--3276/) skill trick.

Moderate Archetype Power: When using sleight of hand as a perform skill (juggling, Legerdemain, etc) can fascinate as a bard. Gain free Hidden Blade (http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/hidden-blade--3290/) skill trick. While engaged in combat, you may attempt to use the Sleight of Hand skill to pickpocket an enemy as a swift action without provoking an attack of opportunity.

Greater Archetype Power: Three times per day a charlatan can make use of one of the following abilities:

Second Impression: If an observer sees through your disguise with a successful Spot check, you can (as an immediate action) attempt a Bluff check to convince him that he's mistaken. Use the observer's Spot check result as the DC for your Bluff check; if you succeed, the observer ignores the evidence of his own senses in favor of what your disguise attempts to show. You must be aware of the observer's discovery in order to use this trick; for example, you can't use it against someone viewing you secretly, nor can you use it against someone who sees through your disguise but keeps that information secret. When in doubt, the DM should allow a character to use this trick if she has any reason to fear that her cover has been blown.

Deadly Legerdemain: Use her Hidden Blade skill trick to make a free attack on a target she has fascinated. No one, including the victim, knows where the attack came from, and combat does not begin. The charlatan hides the weapon used in the attack as a free action after the attack. The attack must be made in a public place with other people nearby. If the charlatan makes a successful bluff check, she can direct blame for the attack onto another person nearby, thus framing them for the attack. A failed bluff check results in the victim of the attack (and all onlookers) assigning equal blame to all present, including the charlatan.

We Go Way Back, You Can Trust Me: When successfully impersonating a friend or family member of the target the charlatan can add their disguise modifier to a diplomacy skill roll for adjusting a target's attitude, and can add their bluff skill modifier to a diplomacy skill roll for requesting the target take an action.

[Gnorman]

Didn't mean to imply that non-magical was a bad thing! I very much like the idea here of a street performer, juggling knives, gathering a crowd, then in a flash, slitting a noble's throat and disappearing into the crowd. It's a cool concept, and I wouldn't impose Alter Self on the archetype if it's not in your vision.

Though on an unrelated note, while we're on the subject of "adding magic to non-magic classes," I've been kicking around the idea of turning even mundane classes into casters, probably with bard progression. It makes a lot of sense for something like the Paladin (Zealot), Ranger (Hunter), and Bard (Poet) types, obviously, maybe even the Monk (though the Brawler is more explicitly non-magical than the 3.5 monk) but maybe not so much for class concepts like Rogue (Scoundrel) or Fighter (Gladiator, Sentinel) without a shift in flavor to something more like the Assassin or Duskblade. The second issue is, of course, is whether it will make the classes feel too undifferentiated. A Rogue is still going to essentially be a Rogue, but do you think the occasional Invisibility or Disguise Self spell steps too much on the toes of the casters? Is the imbalance between casters and non-casters just in my head?

Basically, I wanted to get your thoughts on the idea. I'm leaning heavily towards implementing it in the next edition, but it's not a done deal.

[OzzyKP]

Personally, for flavor reasons, I like playing non-magical classes. It is kind of like admiring Batman who goes toe-to-toe with enemies with all kinds of supernatural and alien abilities but is just a man with some cool toys. Having a Rogue or Ranger or someone who can get by on their wit or brawn or skill without any magic is worth holding on to.

Overall I think they are fairly balanced, and I like the nerfs you've made to the magical classes. I think E6 inherently nerfs magic users anyhow since they get more ridiculous as they get higher in levels. I like thinking about the classes as magic users who can do something great 6 times a day, and non-magic users who can do something less great, but whenever they want.

If a mage has X spells per day AND a bunch of free to use abilities as well, maybe those are a bit powerful. But on the whole, I think you've struck a good balance.

The biggest problem I see with the non-magic classes are with the whole feat system. Feats can be very powerful and open up a great number of abilities, but they require a lot of time and specialization to get much use out of them. Too many feat taxes and small, situational bonuses. An easy buff to non-magical classes could be to more liberally give out some building-block feats to classes & archetypes to fix this.

If you are considering adding more magic for the non-mages, I suggest you build on the Initiate/Warden/Rage Magus archetype idea and just give every class an archetype with spells.

[darklink_shadow]

I hate the idea of handing spells out to non-spell casters.

I love the idea of making a spell weaving archetype for each class.

I am strongly in favor of a feat overhaul. Dnd TOME, a fan made edition I played a lot in college, had a full feat overhaul that made the basic fighter a terror on the battlefield simply because he had so many feats, and feats were actually worth having.

[OzzyKP]

Another idea would be create a collection of skill tricks, combat feats & rogue tricks (from pathfinder) to give characters some non-magical, spell type things they can use each day. Instead of having each of these as feats that are always on and need to be permanently selected every two or three levels, you could give classes a list of them to use once a day like a spell. It would keep the roles and feel of the classes very separate from magic users, but could buff them a bit.

Just imagine this as your "spell list": http://dndtools.pw/feats/categories/skill-trick/

The issue I have with feats is that they are so situational. Take this skill trick, for example, Back on Your Feet (http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/back-your-feet--3277/). Do I really want to spend one of my limited feat spots to have the ability to stand up quickly if I get knocked down? Why would anyone do this? "Fireballs? Teleportation? Pshaw, I am really good at standing up!"

Now if this was one of 20 skill tricks you had in your bag of tricks that you could use up when the situation called for it... that'd be far more useful.

[Gnorman]

Personally, for flavor reasons, I like playing non-magical classes. It is kind of like admiring Batman who goes toe-to-toe with enemies with all kinds of supernatural and alien abilities but is just a man with some cool toys. Having a Rogue or Ranger or someone who can get by on their wit or brawn or skill without any magic is worth holding on to.

Overall I think they are fairly balanced, and I like the nerfs you've made to the magical classes. I think E6 inherently nerfs magic users anyhow since they get more ridiculous as they get higher in levels. I like thinking about the classes as magic users who can do something great 6 times a day, and non-magic users who can do something less great, but whenever they want.

If a mage has X spells per day AND a bunch of free to use abilities as well, maybe those are a bit powerful. But on the whole, I think you've struck a good balance.

The biggest problem I see with the non-magic classes are with the whole feat system. Feats can be very powerful and open up a great number of abilities, but they require a lot of time and specialization to get much use out of them. Too many feat taxes and small, situational bonuses. An easy buff to non-magical classes could be to more liberally give out some building-block feats to classes & archetypes to fix this.

If you are considering adding more magic for the non-mages, I suggest you build on the Initiate/Warden/Rage Magus archetype idea and just give every class an archetype with spells.


I hate the idea of handing spells out to non-spell casters.

I love the idea of making a spell weaving archetype for each class.

I am strongly in favor of a feat overhaul. Dnd TOME, a fan made edition I played a lot in college, had a full feat overhaul that made the basic fighter a terror on the battlefield simply because he had so many feats, and feats were actually worth having.

My worry with making a spellcasting archetype for each non-casting class is that spells are generally such a good resource to have that there might not be any reason NOT to play the spellcasting archetype. I suppose I'd just have to make sure that the other archetypes are competitive enough.

As for feats, yes, absolutely. Some feats need to be consolidated with other feats, others need to be eliminated entirely and just made a basic option (TWF, Weapon Finesse, Power Attack, etc.). I really loved Tome's scaling feats, though those don't work quite as well in the E6 environment. I've tried very consciously to not make archetype abilities "here, have these specific bonus feats" because I'm assuming unlimited feats in an E6 game, and so they kind of lack some oomph. But it may not be a bad idea to have, say, the Sniper archetype's lesser ability be something like "oh hey you get Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot for free, and also ranged power attack, because these are the basic things you need to have to be an effective non-cleric 3.5 archer."


Another idea would be create a collection of skill tricks, combat feats & rogue tricks (from pathfinder) to give characters some non-magical, spell type things they can use each day. Instead of having each of these as feats that are always on and need to be permanently selected every two or three levels, you could give classes a list of them to use once a day like a spell. It would keep the roles and feel of the classes very separate from magic users, but could buff them a bit.

Yes, this would DEFINITELY be the plan if I didn't add spellcasting. I wanted to write my own maneuver system a long time ago (you can still see the scraps on the first page of the thread). I do also plan on giving the so-called "mundane" classes some kind of independent resource system. For example: one idea I'd been kicking around for the Scoundrel was Luck, a regenerating pool that functions much like action points do, allowing them to add bonuses, increase the size of their damage die, or even gaining 5E's Advantage concept. And then, I could have a Swashbuckler archetype whose whole schtick is "I have more Luck, and it regenerates faster."

Other concepts that may be coming down the line:
- Bonus spells in general get replaced with an Advanced Learning feature or some other kind of feature that allows customization
- Blue Mages get a Spellbook feature, allowing them to act like a severely-restricted 3.5 wizard (we're talking like, one spell per level per day here)
- Black Mages get their familiar back, with restrictions to avoid the whole "I am two characters" problem (familiar cannot be higher than CR 3, nor have more than 4 HD, nor can it be incorporeal, etc.)
- Red Mages get an at-will eldritch blast, become metamagic specialists, and we also get an Arcane Archer archetype
- White Mages get domains, hopefully alleviating their relatively limited spell list
- Green Mages get some kind of spirit/totem system, allowing them to change their bonus spells on the fly, albeit from a smaller pool
- Summoning spells removed from Blue and Red Mages

[darklink_shadow]

I may make up some mechanics for DND in the future and then toss them to you when I am done fiddling. I'm not a very good homebrewer. I don't know what balance is half the time, and I'll make two classes I think are the same power level and get told one is a rather weak T4 and the other is a solid T2.

But I have had lots of ideas... I might write some of them up here. Also, it's nice to see someone else who knows about the scaling feats in tome! And lastly, bonus feats are good if you make some very strong feats that can only be gained through class levels.

Anyways... I'll be back after I can make a collection of ideas to post.

[darklink_shadow]

Terramancer
I control the very earth you walk upon.


Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special


1st
+0
+0
+0
+2
Archetype Power (Lesser), Nature's Arsenal


2nd
+1
+0
+0
+3
X2


3rd
+2
+1
+1
+3
Archetype Power (Moderate)


4th
+3
+1
+1
+4
X4


5th
+3
+1
+1
+4
X5


6th
+4
+2
+2
+5
Archetype Power (Greater), X6



Special: Air and Fire improve reflex saves. Desert and Forest improve Fort Saves. A fifth Archetype based on stone and ore will improve hp. It will also give more defensive buffs.

This is supposed to be more of a support character that focuses on debuffs and buffs, except the fire dude, who is all about damage and being a front line fighter, with just enough cc to be annoying.

Weapons: I don't know.
Armor: Light
HP: 1d6
Skills: 4+INT

Nature's Arsenal: The Terramancer can craft a weapon from the very earth itself. This grants her two powers:

As a standard action, the Terramancer can lift a chunk of the nearby ground and direct it to hurl itself at an enemy. This is a ranged attack roll that doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. The attack can originate from any square the Terramancer can see within 50ft and has a range increment of 50ft. This attack deals half the Terramancer's class level rounded up in d4s.

As a move action, the Terramancer can pull a weapon from the earth, essentially gaining any simple weapon of their choice made from stone, dirt, ice, coral, or whatever makes sense. This weapon deals damage appropriate for its type.

Shifting Earth: As a move action, the Terramancer may move another target by move the earth underneath them. She can move them a total of 15ft in any direction. Obviously moving them down creates a pit, and moving them up creates a pillar of earth. When moving targets down, you create a sloping pit, which is difficult terrain, but otherwise traversable. They do provoke attacks of opportunity. You cannot move someone into water, or off a cliff, as you make earth move under them. If you put someone off a cliff, they would have land to step on.

Additionally, the Terramancer has Stone Shape at will, but only with unworked stone or dirt.

Hostile Earth: The Terramancer may make up to her level of 5ft squares difficult terrain as a free action. In addition, a Terramancer may add an effect to half her level, rounded down, of effected squares from the following list:


Jagged Earth: Entering this square, or starting your turn in this square deals 1d6 slashing damage.
Localized Quick Sand: Anyone who enters or starts there turn in this square must make a reflex save or be forced to spend a move action crawling out of the square.
Invigorating Mud: Anyone who ends their turn in this square has fast healing 1.
Dusty Storm: This square blocks line of sight.



Rock and a Hard Place: Some cliche ability.

Fist of Earth: The Terramancer has no range restriction of her earth based ranged attacks from Fist of Earth, she is only limited on attacking things based on what she can sense. The range increment of her attacks also increase to 150ft feet.

Archtypes:
Mons Igneus
What hath more raw fury than a volcano?
Lesser: Thera's Fury
Whenever the Terramancer uses Nature's Arsenal ranged attack to deal damage, she deals extra fire damage equal to one third her level, rounded up. In addition, her forged weapons are always made from obsidian, which are keen weapons that are deal one die larger damage.

Moderate: Step of Surtr
The Terramancer is immune to fire, and can step between any flames that are within line of effect to one another that she knows about as if they were in the same square. In addition, at her option, any square she enters or exits can be engulfed in flames that burn for one round after she leaves them. These flames deal 1d4 damage to anyone who enters them, and they catch on fire, taking an extra 1d4 damage per round until they spend a move action to put them out.

Greater: Vulcan's Forge
The Terramancer continues her quest to build fire and earth into a suitable armory. She can now create half plate made from flaming earth, to wear. This is treated as a normal half-plate made from steel, except anyone who attacks her with a natural weapon or attempts to grapple her takes 1d6 fire damage. In addition, her fires burn hotter than lesser fires, and pierce the first 15 points of fire resistance, deal half damage to fire resistance creatures, and any creature that would normally be healed by fire damage is not healed, but instead harmed by fire damage, though they also take half damage. A Terramancer is immune to her own flames, regardless of how I just slapped around immunity rules.

Finally, the Terramancer may use one of the following abilities once per day:

Thera's Burning Visage: The Terramancer may explode in flames, dealing 6d6 Inferno Damage in either a 60ft cone, a 100ft line, 30ft burst centered on him or a 15 ft burst centered within 50ft. Inferno Damage is a lot like Fire Damage, but it cannot be resisted by anything, except the Terramancer who casts it.

Surtr's Blazing Sword: Rather than pull a regular weapon from the Earth, the Terramancer may pull Surtr's Blazing Sword from the Earth. This sword lasts for one minute and deals fire damage equal to a huge full blade's normal damage, though the Terramancer can wield it in one hand as if it were a long sword. She does not add her strength as a bonus to this damage.

Vulcan's Infernal Armor: Her armor is better all day. Full Plate, and extra fire damage. Or something. Or maybe scrap this one, and do something else. I donno.

Truncatis
The forest provides.
Lesser: Pan's Vines
The Terramancer gets Snare at will, except the DC is less terrible. In addition, she also gets Entangle at will.

Moderate: Aranyani's Swiftness
The Terramancer can step between trees, or objects made of wood the same size category or large than herself. In addition she has pass without trace, woodland stride, and maybe other junk.

Greater: Abu's Garden

The Terramancer can rebuke and command as if she had an effective cleric level of 1.5 times whatever her effective cleric level is now. This stacks with everything.

In addition, she can use one of the following abilities once per day....

Pan's Snake Vine:
The Terramancer can summon a large viper with the greenbound template. This lasts until it dies, or 10 minutes. Or something. I donno.

Aranyani's:
The Terramancer can make up to her level in targets invisible for 1 hour, or until they take a hostile action. While invisible, they can all benefits of Aranyani's swiftness. Their feet also jingle as if bells were tied to them, but the sound seems to come from all around.

Abu's Harvest:
The Terramancer can cause nearby flowering plants to suddenly bear 5 magic fruits. These fruit last for 12 hours, and taste super great. They are also magic, and give the eater of the fruit the following benefits:
Healing.
Buffs.

Desert
There's nothing here.
Lesser:

Moderate:

Greater:

Sky
Not all who respect the earth are bound to it.
Lesser: Hathor's Glory
The Terramancer gains bardic music, but she must user Perform Sing. In addition, the Terramancer's Nature's Arsenal is changed so that she may attack with just air, or summon weapons made from the wind, called Wind Blades.

Moderate: Enlil's Flight
The Terramancer gains a sort of flight. Treat her as having perfect flying 30, except she cannot gain elevation by flying, though she can climb and hover great distances. Regardless of her movement, the Terramancer must spend a move action to maintain her flight, though she may also summon a Wind Blade as part of the same action as flying.

Greater: ?

The winds bring many things: life, death, or just change. Each morning, the Terramancer must attune one foci from the following

The Storm of Zeus: The Terramancer's Nature's Arsenal may deal sonic damage, and once per day she may make a lightening strike followed by a thunder clap. The lightening strike deals 3d6 Electric Damage and 3d6 Force damage to a target, and the thunder clap deafens all within 30ft of the target.

The Blessings of Ukko: ? Something buffy, and fluffy.

? Something else. Or I don't know.


Archtypes

Becomer
If it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

Definition: Anything you have Mimic'd is "Any creature whose ability you have copied"

Lesser: I've got one of those!
If a creature's supernatural ability requires an organ or limb you do not have, you can manifest the organ or limb just long enough to use their stolen power.

Moderate: I want to be like You!
You gain alter self, limited only to allow you to alter yourself into something you have mimic'd. The HD limit is bigger.

Greater: It's like Puberty, but awesome!
If you have mimic'd all of a creature's su abilities, you can shape change into that creature, except you cannot use any abilities you don't have. You can do this 3 times per day, and it lasts for some period of time. The HD Limit is bigger.

Master Theif

Lesser: Smorgasbord!
You can steal a number of abilities from the same creature equal to half your mimic level rounded up +1.

Moderate: Mine's better!
The DC of any ability you steal is higher, by some amount.

Greater: It's mine now.
When you steal an ability from a creature, even if you already had that ability, it loses its own ability to perform that ability for a number of rounds equal to your level -1. Which is 5.

The Specialist

Lesser: Choose one type of Ranger Favored Enemy. This is now a Mimic Specialist. The DC to resist your mimicing is higher against your Specialist types.

Moderate: Choose one type of Ranger Favored Enemy. This is now a Mimic Specialist. Your HD for abilities you steal from your Specialist types are treated as * 1.5 for all effects.

Greater: Choose one type of Ranger Favored Enemy. Great.

Once per day per type you picked, you can do this cool thing. Neat.

Abberation: You resist one spell whose save you failed as if you were immune.

Animal: I don't know. Animal is a bad choice, so you just get to feel bad.

Construct: Everything cool I can think of, I am pretty sure you already get from Mimic Form except one thing. Rather than have an once daily, you simply get to be healed by conj(healing) crap.

Dragon: You roar with fierceness. Things are scared, but they get a will safe.

Elemental: I donno.

Fey: You can reflect one single target spell that you made your safe against back at any other target.

Giant: Can suddenly grow in size for 1 round, usable as an immediate action, up to +2 size categories.

Humanoid: You can reroll any d20 roll you want.

Magic Beast: You can double a DC of one of your abilities.

Monstrous Humanoid: See Humanoid.

Ooze: You can choose to be immune to magic for up to 5 rounds, as an immediate action.

Outsider: You can plane shift 2/day.

Plant: Ugh. I don't know.

Undead: You can use that spell that makes you invisible to undead at will.

Vermin: You can turn into a swarm for up to 10 minutes a day, in 1 minute intervals.




That's all for tonight.

[OzzyKP]

Yes, this would DEFINITELY be the plan if I didn't add spellcasting. I wanted to write my own maneuver system a long time ago (you can still see the scraps on the first page of the thread). I do also plan on giving the so-called "mundane" classes some kind of independent resource system. For example: one idea I'd been kicking around for the Scoundrel was Luck, a regenerating pool that functions much like action points do, allowing them to add bonuses, increase the size of their damage die, or even gaining 5E's Advantage concept. And then, I could have a Swashbuckler archetype whose whole schtick is "I have more Luck, and it regenerates faster."

Other concepts that may be coming down the line:
- Bonus spells in general get replaced with an Advanced Learning feature or some other kind of feature that allows customization
- Blue Mages get a Spellbook feature, allowing them to act like a severely-restricted 3.5 wizard (we're talking like, one spell per level per day here)
- Black Mages get their familiar back, with restrictions to avoid the whole "I am two characters" problem (familiar cannot be higher than CR 3, nor have more than 4 HD, nor can it be incorporeal, etc.)
- Red Mages get an at-will eldritch blast, become metamagic specialists, and we also get an Arcane Archer archetype
- White Mages get domains, hopefully alleviating their relatively limited spell list
- Green Mages get some kind of spirit/totem system, allowing them to change their bonus spells on the fly, albeit from a smaller pool
- Summoning spells removed from Blue and Red Mages

Hmm, if you were worried about spell casters being too strong, adding on all these boosts to them might not be the way to go. Stripping out all those things were part of the reason your spell casters are less strong than the normal ones.

As for the non-magic 'spells' I went through the list of Rogue Talents (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents) and Skill Tricks (http://dndtools.pw/feats/categories/skill-trick/?page_size=100) and very, very roughly grouped them according to the themes of each non-magic class/archetype (I skipped Engineer, I think they are set):


-Befuddling Strike - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/befuddling-strike-ex
-Bleeding attack - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/bleeding-attack-ex
-Canny Observer - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/canny-observer-ex
-Improved Steal - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-steal-combat
-Deft Palm - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/deft-palm-ex
-Fast Fingers - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/fast-fingers-ex
-Fast Picks - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/fast-picks-ex
-Last Ditch Effort - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/last-ditch-effort
-All sneak attack damage dice are maximized
-Sleight of Hand Stunt - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/sleight-of-hand-stunt-ex
-Hidden Blade - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/hidden-blade--3290/
-Opening Tap - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/opening-tap--3298/
-Sudden Draw - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/sudden-draw--3308/

---Acrobat (balance, climb, jump)
-Free, extra 5-ft step with no AoO
-Climbing Stunt - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/climbing-stunt-ex
-Expert Leaper - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/expert-leaper-ex
-Fast Getaway - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/fast-getaway-ex
-Ledge Walker - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/ledge-walker-ex
-Nimble Climber - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/nimble-climber-ex
-Peerless Maneuver - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/peerless-maneuver-ex
-Positioning Attack - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/positioning-attack-ex
-Aerial Acrobatics - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/drop-dead-studios---rogue-talents/aerial-acrobatics
-Wall Mastery - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/drop-dead-studios---rogue-talents/wall-mastery
-Acrobatic Backstab - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/acrobatic-backstab--3275/
-Back on Your Feet - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/back-your-feet--3277/
-Corner Perch - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/corner-perch--3282/
-Leaping Climber - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/leaping-climber--3291/
-Slipping Past - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/slipping-past--3305/

---Silencer (poison)
-Developed Poison Immunity - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/developed-poison-immunity-ex
-Fast Getaway - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/fast-getaway-ex
-Lasting Poison - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/lasting-poison-ex
-Snap Shot - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/snap-shot-ex
-Swift Poison - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/swift-poison-ex
-Trick Shot - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/drop-dead-studios---rogue-talents/trick-shot

---Phantom (hiding)
-Camouflage - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/camouflage-ex
-Face in the Crowd - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/face-in-the-crowd
-Fast Stealth - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/fast-stealth-ex
-Snap Shot - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/snap-shot-ex
-Stealth Stunt - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/stealth-stunt-ex
-Hidden Flight - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/drop-dead-studios---rogue-talents/hidden-flight
-Trick Shot - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/drop-dead-studios---rogue-talents/trick-shot
-Shrouded Dance - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/shrouded-dance--3303/

---Charlatan (bluff, disguise, sleight of hand)
-Camouflage - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/camouflage-ex
-Convincing Lie - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/convincing-lie-ex
-Face in the Crowd - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/face-in-the-crowd
-False Friend - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-kitsune/kitsune-trickster-rogue-kitsune/false-friend-ex
-Honeyed Words - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/honeyed-words-ex
-Feint Expert - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/drop-dead-studios---rogue-talents/feint-expert
-Second Impression - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/second-impression--3302/
-Timely Misdirection - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/timely-misdirection--3310/



-Canny Observer - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/canny-observer-ex
-Follow Clues - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/follow-clues-ex
-Hard to Fool - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/hard-to-fool-ex
-Heads Up - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/heads-up-ex
-Magic Adept - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/drop-dead-studios---rogue-talents/magic-adept
-Clarity of Vision - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/clarity-vision--3278/
-Collector of Stories - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/collector-stories--3280/
-Listen to This - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/listen--3292/
-Point it Out - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/point-it-out--3299/
-Spot the Weak Point - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/spot-weak-point--3307/



-Canny Observer - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/canny-observer-ex
-Heads Up - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/heads-up-ex
-Feint Expert - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/drop-dead-studios---rogue-talents/feint-expert
-Magic Adept - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/drop-dead-studios---rogue-talents/magic-adept
-Collector of Stories - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/collector-stories--3280/
-Listen to This - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/listen--3292/
-Swift Concentration - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/swift-concentration--3309/

---Banshee (sonic damage?)
-Can hold breath an extra 4 rounds

---Bravado (two weapon fighting)
-Free, extra 5-ft step with no AoO
-Assault Leader http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/assault-leader-ex
-Positioning Attack - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/positioning-attack-ex

---Doom Singer (debuff)
-Can hold breath an extra 4 rounds

---Skald (buff, armor)
-Can hold breath an extra 4 rounds

---Trickster (feinting, debuff)
-Free, extra 5-ft step with no AoO
-Improved Steal - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-steal-combat
-False Theurgy - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/false-theurgy--3287/
-Group Fake-Out - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/group-fake-out--3288/
-Timely Misdirection - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/timely-misdirection--3310/



-Canny Observer - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/canny-observer-ex
-Charmer - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/charmer-ex
-Convincing Lie - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/convincing-lie-ex
-False Friend - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-kitsune/kitsune-trickster-rogue-kitsune/false-friend-ex
-Hard to Fool - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/hard-to-fool-ex
-Honeyed Words - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/honeyed-words-ex
-Obfuscate Story - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-kitsune/kitsune-trickster-rogue-kitsune/obfuscate-story-ex

---Dilettante (flexibility)
-Befuddling Strike - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/befuddling-strike-ex
-Magic Adept - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/drop-dead-studios---rogue-talents/magic-adept

---Duelist (finesse melee)
-Free, extra 5-ft step with no AoO
-Positioning Attack - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/positioning-attack-ex
-Feint Expert - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/drop-dead-studios---rogue-talents/feint-expert
-Timely Misdirection - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/timely-misdirection--3310/

---Patrician (diplomacy)
-Social Recovery - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/social-recovery--3304/

---Tyrant (minions)
-Resiliency - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/resiliency-ex

---Warchief (attack, attack of opportunity, demoralize)
-Free, extra 5-ft step with no AoO
-Resiliency - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/resiliency-ex
-Never Outnumbered - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/never-outnumbered--3295/



-Can hold breath an extra 4 rounds
-+4 on Fortitude roll
-Resiliency - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/resiliency-ex
-Healing Hands - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/healing-hands--3289/

---Cavalier (horseys)
-Dismount Attack - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/dismount-attack--3283/

---Initiate (spells)

---Reaver (melee)
-Intimidating Prowess - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/intimidating-prowess-combat---final
-Never Outnumbered - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/never-outnumbered--3295/

---Templar (Anti-mage/spell)
-Clarity of Vision - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/clarity-vision--3278/



-Assault Leader http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/assault-leader-ex
-Can hold breath an extra 4 rounds
-+4 on Fortitude roll
-Resiliency - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/resiliency-ex
-+4 AC vs. one attack

---Bastion (sheilds)

---Juggernaut (bullrush, overrun)
-Intimidating Prowess - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/intimidating-prowess-combat---final

---Landsknecht (reach)

---Praetorian (AC, AoO)
-Free, extra 5-ft step with no AoO



-Assault Leader http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/assault-leader-ex
-Camouflage - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/camouflage-ex
-Canny Observer - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/canny-observer-ex
-Can hold breath an extra 4 rounds
-+4 on Fortitude roll
-Last Ditch Effort - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/last-ditch-effort
-Snap Shot - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/snap-shot-ex
-Can apply sneak attack dice of a rogue of same level to one ranged attack
-Swift Tracker - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/swift-tracker-ex
-Trick Shot - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/drop-dead-studios---rogue-talents/trick-shot

---Beastmaster (animals)

---Peltast (thrown weapons)
-Deadly Dealer - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/deadly-dealer
-Positioning Attack - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/positioning-attack-ex

---Sniper (hiding, archery)
-Fast Stealth - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/fast-stealth-ex

---Stalker (traps, favored enemy)
-Cunning Trigger - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/cunning-trigger-ex

---Warden (spells)



-Free, extra 5-ft step with no AoO
-Assault Leader - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/assault-leader-ex
-Expert Leaper - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/expert-leaper-ex
-Can hold breath an extra 4 rounds
-+4 on Fortitude roll
-Positioning Attack - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/positioning-attack-ex
-Spend a swift action to make one standard attack

---Brute (rage, intimidate, charge)
-Intimidating Prowess - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/intimidating-prowess-combat---final
-Acrobatic Charge - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/drop-dead-studios---rogue-talents/acrobatic-charge
-Never Outnumbered - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/never-outnumbered--3295/

---Master at Arms (damage reduction, switch weapon)

---Pit Fighter (Attack of Opportunity)
-Back on Your Feet - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/back-your-feet--3277/
-Feint Expert - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/drop-dead-studios---rogue-talents/feint-expert
-Timely Misdirection - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/timely-misdirection--3310/

---Rage Magus (spells)

---Vindicator (melee)
-Never Outnumbered - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/never-outnumbered--3295/



-Free, extra 5-ft step with no AoO
-Assault Leader - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/assault-leader-ex
-Escaping Stunt - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/escaping-stunt-ex
-Can hold breath an extra 4 rounds
-+4 on Fortitude roll
-Positioning Attack - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/positioning-attack-ex
-Spend a swift action to make one standard attack
-Back on Your Feet - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/back-your-feet--3277/

---Breathstealer (grappling)
-Easy Escape - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/easy-escape--3284/
-Escape Attack - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/escape-attack--3285/

---Bruiser (Reach, melee, two-handed weapons)
-Intimidating Prowess - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/intimidating-prowess-combat---final

---Cenobite (healing, Wisdom)
-Healing Hands - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/healing-hands--3289/

---Ravager (Multiple attacks)
-Intimidating Prowess - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/intimidating-prowess-combat---final
-Never Outnumbered - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/never-outnumbered--3295/


I hadn't gotten to feats yet (that's a daunting task) so Scoundrel has a lot more items than the more fighter-y classes, but it is a good start. I think there are a lot of nice thematic matches that can be made with each of these, but I just worry about archetypes/classes being too narrow. Everything related to poison I gave to the silencer, everything related to hiding/stealth I gave to the phantom. Grappling stuff can go to the breathstealer. But is that too narrow? I dunno. I like the Charlatan I made, it has a few more uses in and out of combat than some of the others.

Anyhow, when going through this and trying to find a very simple theme to label each archetype with I started thinking about the Sage, Poet & Noble classes. It feels like all are elements of bards that got put into their own classes. Traditional bards were used for social stuff, knowledge, spells and singing. Social stuff became nobles, knowledge became sages, and poets got left with singing & spells. I rather like the idea of the Sage & Noble classes. I think I'd recommend just getting rid of the Poet class. Put a singing character (and a spell casting character) under Sage. I think Sage could be a good place to house a monster mimic archetype too without necessarily making it its own class (or incorporating some of Sgt. Cookie's ideas into the core Sage class features).

[Gnorman]

Fair points, and I'll take them under advisement. Good work on rounding up those skill tricks and stunts (I'm not super familiar with Pathfinder in general, and especially not stunts, but they seem fairly intuitive), thanks for that. I'd like to at least have a spellcasting archetype for all non-casting classes - allows me to get concepts like the Duskblade, Assassin, Blackguard, etc. in as well as more traditional ones like the paladin, bard, and ranger. I'm also struck by your observation about the narrow nature of archetypes - it's a fair criticism (although perhaps you didn't intend it as such) that I intend to correct. Some of it is the fact that I've painted myself into a fairly small corner with the names in my desire to avoid repeating standard 3.5 titles. Silencer, instead of Assasin, for example. Silencer, as I have written it and perhaps as the name implies, is all about poison. An Assassin can be about poison, but also stealth, a bit of magic, et cetera. Really, some broadening of the conceptual space for archetypes might be nice.

As far as strengthening the casters go, I wasn't trying to increase their power so much as their versatility. Though you're right, adding in something as eminently abusable as a wizard spellbook or domains definitely skews the potential. Mostly, I was just casting about for class features (other than spellcasting) that make the mages feel unique and different from one another - the green mage gets shapeshifting, which definitely helps, but the others are a bit more lackluster. All things considered, I'd like to maybe end up with fewer archetypes and classes, but have each one feel more distinct. So that's where I'm coming from - I would like a blue mage to play very differently from a green mage, even though they're both participating in the shared resource system of spellcasting. I remain open to suggestions on that front!

I'm keeping the Poet around because the bard has a lot of traction as a concept, especially in D&D. I'd be more inclined to eliminate the Sage/Noble, and return those concepts to the Poet, than to eliminate the Poet itself. However, I still maintain a certain amount of stubborn pride in my attempts to design away from core classes. Unfortunately, the Noble and the Sage don't feel quite so complete to me. When I was going through "skilled classes" originally, I was struck by how much narrower the concepts are than in the spellcasting classes or the combat classes. As I mentioned previously in the thread, future versions of this project may eliminate the distinction between combat and skilled classes entirely, and just have the rogue/bard concepts be in the "Non-Casting" category. I'd still want to keep the basic concepts of the Sage (monster knowledge, denial abilities, and perhaps a splash of Factotum-style casting) and Noble (minions, buffs, and skewing the action economy), but I might turn them into archetypes instead. The Engineer is just too well-developed at this point for me to consider abandoning it, though the archetypes need work.

[darklink_shadow]

I'm probably not going to finish that Terramancer. If it looks like something you'd use, it's yours to fix up. If not, that's fine too.

Let me know how you like the Mimic Archetypes I made. They probably could use some balancing.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Just a small update:

I altered the Summoner slightly. The Summoner's Companion's Hit Dice will always be equal to the Summoner's Level. As otherwise, the Summoner's Companion could end up being squishier than the Summoner!

[OzzyKP]

Fair points, and I'll take them under advisement. Good work on rounding up those skill tricks and stunts (I'm not super familiar with Pathfinder in general, and especially not stunts, but they seem fairly intuitive), thanks for that. I'd like to at least have a spellcasting archetype for all non-casting classes - allows me to get concepts like the Duskblade, Assassin, Blackguard, etc. in as well as more traditional ones like the paladin, bard, and ranger. I'm also struck by your observation about the narrow nature of archetypes - it's a fair criticism (although perhaps you didn't intend it as such) that I intend to correct. Some of it is the fact that I've painted myself into a fairly small corner with the names in my desire to avoid repeating standard 3.5 titles. Silencer, instead of Assasin, for example. Silencer, as I have written it and perhaps as the name implies, is all about poison. An Assassin can be about poison, but also stealth, a bit of magic, et cetera. Really, some broadening of the conceptual space for archetypes might be nice.

I'd go with an Assassin archetype that combines silencer & phantom (poison + stealth), and then add a ninja archetype that can cast spells (and keep acrobat & charlatan). Overall I think Scoundrel is one of the broader base classes you have.


As far as strengthening the casters go, I wasn't trying to increase their power so much as their versatility. Though you're right, adding in something as eminently abusable as a wizard spellbook or domains definitely skews the potential. Mostly, I was just casting about for class features (other than spellcasting) that make the mages feel unique and different from one another - the green mage gets shapeshifting, which definitely helps, but the others are a bit more lackluster. All things considered, I'd like to maybe end up with fewer archetypes and classes, but have each one feel more distinct. So that's where I'm coming from - I would like a blue mage to play very differently from a green mage, even though they're both participating in the shared resource system of spellcasting. I remain open to suggestions on that front!

I agree that the magic classes can be given a few more base class abilities, I think green mages are fine with shapeshifting (though that is pretty powerful). As for the others, perhaps each can get a modification to their spells (like the effects of a metamagic feat) and some action they can take that doesn't involve spells. The worst thing for a mage is when their spells run out and they are essentially useless at that point. Having *something* they can do then would be nice.

Black - damage, summoning, creepiness
-Some bonus to damage? All damage dice round up, or a +X to damage on spells, or
-An at-will blast spell
http://dndtools.pw/feats/players-handbook-v35--6/empower-spell--848/

Blue - time, space
-Spell stealing (like from Sgt. Cookie's mimic idea)
-Teleportation (instead of the wayfarer power)
http://dndtools.pw/feats/players-handbook-v35--6/quicken-spell--2330/
http://dndtools.pw/feats/magic-of-faerun--20/widen-spell--3137/

White - healing, buffs
-An at-will buff spell
-An at-will heal spell
http://dndtools.pw/feats/players-handbook-v35--6/extend-spell--1006/
http://dndtools.pw/feats/magic-of-faerun--20/widen-spell--3137/

Red - combat, armor
-Energy resistance 5
-Foes have higher spell failure chances
http://dndtools.pw/feats/magic-of-faerun--20/eschew-materials--3625/
http://dndtools.pw/feats/players-handbook-v35--6/enlarge-spell--897/
http://dndtools.pw/feats/defenders-of-the-faith-a-guidebook-to-clerics-and-paladins--38/reach-spell--2392/

Green - nature
-I think green is all set



I'm keeping the Poet around because the bard has a lot of traction as a concept, especially in D&D. I'd be more inclined to eliminate the Sage/Noble, and return those concepts to the Poet, than to eliminate the Poet itself. However, I still maintain a certain amount of stubborn pride in my attempts to design away from core classes. Unfortunately, the Noble and the Sage don't feel quite so complete to me. When I was going through "skilled classes" originally, I was struck by how much narrower the concepts are than in the spellcasting classes or the combat classes. As I mentioned previously in the thread, future versions of this project may eliminate the distinction between combat and skilled classes entirely, and just have the rogue/bard concepts be in the "Non-Casting" category. I'd still want to keep the basic concepts of the Sage (monster knowledge, denial abilities, and perhaps a splash of Factotum-style casting) and Noble (minions, buffs, and skewing the action economy), but I might turn them into archetypes instead. The Engineer is just too well-developed at this point for me to consider abandoning it, though the archetypes need work.

I like your attempts to design away from core classes, definitely keep that. Personally I really like skilled classes. But I can see reason to cut Noble/Sage/Poet down to two classes.

I've we're cutting either Noble or Sage, I think Duelist & Bravado can be combined. Banshee and Doomsinger I think can just be cut.... Ugh, I really just don't much like the Poet class. Maybe I am unenlightened, but bardic music seems like the most useless of class features. A +1 here or -1 there, it still requires a standard action to use.. I dunno. I really think it is less to build a class around than the better (imho) minion/lackey/diplomacy features of the Noble.

The two things it does, spells and inspiration could be more easily split to Noble & Sage (sage gets spells, noble gets singing) than splitting either the Sage or Noble. Now if you are reworking Poet to be a more swashbuckling, luck-based class, that I could get behind.

For the Sage, giving it limited spells would be good, and/or giving it some of the mimic features, or using the Tutor archetype abilities for the base class (a +1 or +2 only for the Sage, which won't be a front line fighter, seems misplaced).

[Gnorman]

I'd go with an Assassin archetype that combines silencer & phantom (poison + stealth), and then add a ninja archetype that can cast spells (and keep acrobat & charlatan). Overall I think Scoundrel is one of the broader base classes you have.

Yeah, that's not a bad idea. I'd been loosely toying with Swashbuckler (luck + direct combat), Assassin (poison + a bit of spellcasting), and Phantom (stealth + illusions). But Ninja has quite a lot of traction too, and people seem to object less frequently about spellcasting on a mundane class if it's explained away by "ninja magic." If I cut archetypes down to three per class (which I'm leaning towards doing), the social aspects of the Charlatan would probably get merged into the Swashbuckler.


I agree that the magic classes can be given a few more base class abilities, I think green mages are fine with shapeshifting (though that is pretty powerful). As for the others, perhaps each can get a modification to their spells (like the effects of a metamagic feat) and some action they can take that doesn't involve spells. The worst thing for a mage is when their spells run out and they are essentially useless at that point. Having *something* they can do then would be nice.

Absolutely agreed. I'd like to give each casting class a signature mechanic besides spellcasting.


Black - damage, summoning, creepiness
-Some bonus to damage? All damage dice round up, or a +X to damage on spells, or
-An at-will blast spell
http://dndtools.pw/feats/players-handbook-v35--6/empower-spell--848/

Summoning and debuffing is the name of the game here. They'll probably get some kind of permanent low-level summoning ability, or a familiar. I'd been toying with setting up an essentia-like system for them, whereby they can invest points in summoned creatures, familiars, an eldritch blast, or spellcasting, to various ends.


Blue - time, space
-Spell stealing (like from Sgt. Cookie's mimic idea)
-Teleportation (instead of the wayfarer power)
http://dndtools.pw/feats/players-handbook-v35--6/quicken-spell--2330/
http://dndtools.pw/feats/magic-of-faerun--20/widen-spell--3137/

Yeah, this one's still a bit of a thematic grab bag: enchantment, illusion, divination, but also teleportation and air spells. Functionally, it should specialize in battlefield control and utility. At heart it's supposed to be the most "wizardly" of the classes, hence why I thought the spellbook feature might be most appropriate. Sharply limited to avoid abuse, of course. But from the playtesting I've seen done, the Blue Mage is probably the most popular spellcaster anyway (likely on the strength and variety of the spell list), so maybe it doesn't need the boost.


White - healing, buffs
-An at-will buff spell
-An at-will heal spell
http://dndtools.pw/feats/players-handbook-v35--6/extend-spell--1006/
http://dndtools.pw/feats/magic-of-faerun--20/widen-spell--3137/

This one's still a bit harder. I thought "domain!" because that's what the core cleric gets, allowing for a bit of spell list customization. But they still don't have a signature mechanic or niche. Yeah, they're good at healing and buffing, but they still need something more proactive. They're probably the second best spellcaster at face-smashing (behind Red), but they're also intentionally inferior in that regard to the core cleric. Maybe that was the wrong way to go about it. Or maybe I will give them some kind of a defensive ability, which, albeit reactive, might still be powerful enough to warrant inclusion. This one needs the most work, I think.


Red - combat, armor
-Energy resistance 5
-Foes have higher spell failure chances
http://dndtools.pw/feats/magic-of-faerun--20/eschew-materials--3625/
http://dndtools.pw/feats/players-handbook-v35--6/enlarge-spell--897/
http://dndtools.pw/feats/defenders-of-the-faith-a-guidebook-to-clerics-and-paladins--38/reach-spell--2392/

Theme: face smashing and fireballs. For this one, I was thinking an at-will energy blast, and also expanding them to be especially adept at metamagic. Not quite sure what form this will take - either limited metamagic reduction, or high-level slots that can only be filled by modified spells. Maybe the Red Mage will end up as "magical damage" and the White Mage will take on more of a face-smashing role.


Green - nature
-I think green is all set

Yeah, it works surprisingly well. The spell list is all over the place, but I was thinking about it recently, and that's actually fine with me. It takes a little bit from all the other classes (damage, healing, utility, control, etc.) and firmly establishes itself as an excellent utility infielder type. Shapeshifting definitely complements that role, though I plan on decoupling some of the more onerous restrictions I placed upon it, or reintroducing the PHBII concepts that it originally drew on.


I like your attempts to design away from core classes, definitely keep that. Personally I really like skilled classes. But I can see reason to cut Noble/Sage/Poet down to two classes.

I've we're cutting either Noble or Sage, I think Duelist & Bravado can be combined. Banshee and Doomsinger I think can just be cut.... Ugh, I really just don't much like the Poet class. Maybe I am unenlightened, but bardic music seems like the most useless of class features. A +1 here or -1 there, it still requires a standard action to use.. I dunno. I really think it is less to build a class around than the better (imho) minion/lackey/diplomacy features of the Noble.

The two things it does, spells and inspiration could be more easily split to Noble & Sage (sage gets spells, noble gets singing) than splitting either the Sage or Noble. Now if you are reworking Poet to be a more swashbuckling, luck-based class, that I could get behind.

For the Sage, giving it limited spells would be good, and/or giving it some of the mimic features, or using the Tutor archetype abilities for the base class (a +1 or +2 only for the Sage, which won't be a front line fighter, seems misplaced).

There are a lot of good ideas in here which I will need time to unpack and think about, but I very much appreciate the perspective. If I'm going to keep the Bard around as a legacy choice, I would like it to be more than just a handful of +1 bonuses. In any case, thanks for taking the time to weigh in.

[OzzyKP]

Hey, I hope it is ok, but I really like your Sage ability of giving bonuses for identifying enemies and used it for a new class I made:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?446691-Archaeologist-%28Pathfinder-Base-Class%29

I beefed it up, but it is still the same Encyclopedic Knowledge ability. I'd love to hear what you think about the class and get your blessing to use the ability, thanks!

[Gnorman]

Go for it! I mostly adapted it from a combination of the Archivist's Dark Knowledge ability and the Knowledge Devotion feat anyway, so it's not like I have a claim to it.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Here's a new thing, intended to mimic the Final Fantasy style Red Mage, heavily influenced by Ziegander's 20 level version (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?232400-Red-Mage-D-amp-D-3-5-Base-Class). He's not intended to be great at any one thing, just decent at everything. His spells hope to drive the point home, no fancy schmancy magic here, just solid, dependable Blasting and Healing. A small, SMALL, amount of Buffing, too. Anyway, have a looksie and tell me what you think:




The Spellslinger



Hit Die: 1d8
Class Skills: Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Heal, Jump, Knowledge (All), Listen, Perform, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Speak Language, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival, Swim, and Use Magic Device.
Skill Points: 4 + Int per level (4x at 1st)




Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special
0lvl
1st
2nd


1st
+0
+0
+2
+2
Archetype Power (Lesser), Spellcasting, Panache
5
0+0
—


2nd
+1
+0
+3
+3
The Arts of War and Mercy
6
1+1
—


3rd
+2
+1
+3
+3
Archetype Power (Moderate)
6
2+2
—


4th
+3
+1
+4
+4
Spell Power
6
3+3
0+0*


5th
+3
+1
+4
+4
Metamagical
6
3+3
1+1


6th
+4
+2
+5
+5
Greater Archetype Power, Bonus Feat
6
3+3
2+2




*Provided the Spellslinger has a high enough Charisma or Wisdom score to get a bonus spell of this level.



Proficiencies: The Spellslinger is proficient with light armour and all simple weapons, plus the longsword, rapier, sap, short sword, shortbow, and whip. He does not suffer from arcane spell failure while in light armour.

Spellcasting: A Spellslinger casts both Arcane and Divine spells, from two specialised lists which are included below. The Spellslinger need not prepare his spells ahead of time, he may cast them spontaneously. The first set of spell slots in each column are his Arcane spells per day; the second his Divine spells per day.

Cantrips and Orisons are interchangeable, slot-wise. He still requires 8 hours of rest to refresh his spells.

A Spellslinger requires both Charisma and Wisdom, which determines the DC and bonus spells of his Arcane and Divine spells, respectively.

Archetype Power: At 1st level, the Spellslinger chooses an archetype from the following list. Each Archetype offers a set of powers and adds bonus spells known to the Spellslinger's list, which are listed below and received when he becomes capable of casting spells of the same level. The first spell in a pair is added to his Arcane list and the second to his Divine.

Panache (Ex): A Spellslinger may substitute his Charisma modifier for her Strength or Dexterity modifier when making an attack roll with a simple weapon, a longsword, a rapier, a sap, a shortsword, a shortbow, or a whip; or an attack roll with a weapon-like spell or effect.

The Arts of War and Mercy (Ex): A Spellslinger adds his Charisma Modifer to Weapon Damage rolls (See Panache for applicable weapons) and to the damage of all Arcane spells that deal Hitpoint Damage.

A Spellslinger adds his Wisdom Modifier to your AC, as long as he wears light or no armour, and to the amount of hit points healed by any Divine spell that heals hit point damage.

Spell Power (Ex): A Spellslinger adds 1 to the Save DC of his Spells and to his Effective Caster Level for determining level-dependent spell variables such as damage dice or range, and to all Caster Level checks. His actual Caster Level does not change.

Metamagical (Ex): Whenever a Spellslinger uses a Metamagic Feat, the feat's level increase upon a spell is reduced by one (this can't reduce an increase to less than one level, or less than zero levels if the increase is already +0) and does not cause an increase in Casting Time.

Additionally, the Spellslinger may, a number of times per day equal to half the relevent Ability Modifer, cast a Metamagic adjusted spell as if he had a Third level Arcane and Divine spell slot (Yes, Highten Spell can be used. No Highten Spell cannot be reduced.).

Bonus Feat (Ex): At sixth level, a Spellslinger gains a Bonus Feat, chosen from the list of Fighter Bonus Feats, any Metamagic Feat or any Item Creation Feat.

The Spellslinger must meet the prerequisites for the feat, but is treated as if he had a BAB of +6 and a Third Level Spell Slot (And Spell Known) and possesses one Metamagic feat.


Spellslinger Spell Lists:


Arcane:
0: Acid Splash, Detect Magic, Inflict Minor Wounds, Read Magic, Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost
1st: Burning Hands, Chill Touch, Colour Spray, Inflict Minor Wounds, Magic Missile, Produce Flame, Ray of Enfeeblement, Shield, Shocking Grasp
2nd: Acid Arrow, Align Weapon, Flaming Sphere, Ghoul Touch, Inflict Moderate Wounds, Scorching Ray, Shatter


Divine:
0: Cure Minor Wounds, Detect Poison, Guidance, Purify Food and Drink, Resistance,
1st: Cure Light Wounds, Deathwatch, Detect Good/Evil/Chaos/Law, Mage Armour, Magic Weapon, Protection from Good/Evil/Law/Chaos, Shield of Faith
2nd: Aid, Blur, Cure Moderate Wounds, Protection from Arrows, Resist Energy, Spiritual Weapon, Status



Archetypes

Duskblade


Bonus Spells:
1st: True Strike, Cause Fear
2nd: Touch of Idiocy, Eagle's Spleandour

Lesser Archetype Power: If an Arcane Spell's Damage is dependent on the Duskblade's Caster Level, he ignores any restrictions or maximums to the damage inherent to the spell.

Moderate Archetype Power: A Duskblade can use a standard action to cast any Arcane touch spell or ranged touch spell he knows and deliver the spell through his weapon with a melee attack. Casting a spell in this manner does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action or less. If the melee attack is successful, the attack deals damage normally; then the effect of the spell is resolved.

Greater Archetype Power: Once per Encounter, a Duskblade may have his Acid, Cold, Electricity and Fire Arcane spells deal damage as if it were one of the other four. (For instance, Acid Arrow dealing Fire damage, or Burning Hands dealing Cold damage.)


Combat Medic


Bonus Spells:
1st: Cure Light Wounds*, Sanctuary
2nd: Cure Moderate Wounds*, Lesser Restoration
*Yes, added to the Arcane List. Gains the Divine benefit from Arts of War and Mercy, despite being Arcane, now.

Lesser Archetype Power: Anyone healed Hit Point damage by a Combat Medic gains Temporary Hitpoints equal to the Combat Medic's Wisdom Modifer, that last for a number of rounds equal to half that number.

Moderate Archetype Power: A number of times per day equal to his Wisdom Modifier, a Combat Medic may cast any Cure X spell as a Swift Action.

Greater Archetype Power: Once per Encounter, a Combat Medic may cast any Cure X spell as if it were Maximised.



Wanderer


Bonus Spells:
1st: Charm Animal, Goodberry
2nd: Animal Messenger, Barkskin

Lesser Archetype Power: A Wanderer's base land speed is increased by 10ft and you always know which way North is. A Wanderer also adds Create Water to his list of Orisons.

Moderate Archetype Power: A Wanderer gains the Wild Empathy Ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#wildEmpathy) as if he were a Druid of his Spellslinger level, except that Wild Animals are usually Indifferent, rather than Unfriendly.

Greater Archetype Power: A Wanderer is considered to be permanently under the effects of a Sanctuary spell, except that it is an Extraordinary effect and only applies to Ordinary Animals (those with Intelligence scores of 1 or 2). A dire animal or an animal trained to attack or guard ignores this ability.



Urbane


Bonus Spells:
1st: Charm Person, Comprehend Languages
2nd: Tongues, Enthrall

Lesser Archetype Power: An Urbane gains the ability to alter his appearance as though using a disguise self spell, this does not affect their possessions. This is not an illusory effect but a minor physical alteration of features. The Urbane can use this ability at will and lasts until he chooses to change again or is killed in which case he reverts to his natural form. A true seeing spell reveals his natural form. When in use this ability gives the Urbane a +10 circumstance bonus to disguise checks. Using this ability is a Full-Round action.

Moderate Archetype Power: Whenever someone attempts to identify what spell an Urbane is casting, they must succeed on a Spellcraft check, opposed by the Urbane's Bluff check. If they fail by 5 or more, they do not believe the Urbane is casting a spell at all (At least until he, y'know, actually casts it), otherwise you believe it to be some other spell.

Greater Archetype Power: A number of times per day equal to half your Charisma Modifier, you may use Glibness as a Spell-Like ability, using your Spellslinger Caster Level as Glibness'.

[Gnorman]

I like the concept, the base class, and the Duskblade and Combat Medic. Very red mage-y, but not too powerful, and the limited spell list fits the role quite well. Wanderer and Urbane seem a little underdeveloped / out of character right now, though.

A few minor issues:

1. There's at least one minor inconsistency in your table - Archetype Power (Lesser) vs. Greater Archetype Power

2. With the Duskblade, am I to assume that the "ignore any caps inherent in the spell" allows you to increase your caster level above your hit dice? While Practiced Spellcaster is out (capped at HD), I can envision a very, very nasty build that uses Arcane Thesis, reserve feats, and various other CL boosters to throw out CL 10+, Maximized Shocking Grasp attacks. Nice and evil, though the investment required probably limits its potential for abuse. Could do it with Scorching Ray, too, although you'd have to settle for Empowered 12d6 attacks.

3. I'm a touch confused by the metamagic ability - when you say "relevant ability modifier," are those severable, or do you have to pick one or the other? Does that mean I can use it on Arcane spells 2x per day, and on Wisdom spells 1x day if I have an Intelligence of 18 and a Wisdom of 14?

4. With Arts of War and Mercy and the Combat Medic, couldn't you just eliminate the Arcane/Divine divide altogether? The Red Mage doesn't seem to have any Arcane spells that heal, nor Divine spells that deal, hit point damage.

[Sgt. Cookie]

I like the concept, the base class, and the Duskblade and Combat Medic. Very red mage-y, but not too powerful, and the limited spell list fits the role quite well. Wanderer and Urbane seem a little underdeveloped / out of character right now, though.

True. Needed to "pad out" the archetypes, though.
Hm, one that blends them together a little more...


A few minor issues:

1. There's at least one minor inconsistency in your table - Archetype Power (Lesser) vs. Greater Archetype Power

Ah, damn. Didn't notice. Will change.


2. With the Duskblade, am I to assume that the "ignore any caps inherent in the spell" allows you to increase your caster level above your hit dice? While Practiced Spellcaster is out (capped at HD), I can envision a very, very nasty build that uses Arcane Thesis, reserve feats, and various other CL boosters to throw out CL 10+, Maximized Shocking Grasp attacks. Nice and evil, though the investment required probably limits its potential for abuse. Could do it with Scorching Ray, too, although you'd have to settle for Empowered 12d6 attacks.

No, this doesn't affect your ACTUAL caster level. Rather, it basically gives you, say, do 6d4 Fire Damage from Burning Hands, rather than be capped out at 5.


3. I'm a touch confused by the metamagic ability - when you say "relevant ability modifier," are those severable, or do you have to pick one or the other? Does that mean I can use it on Arcane spells 2x per day, and on Wisdom spells 1x day if I have an Intelligence of 18 and a Wisdom of 14?

Last one. Although, the Spellslinger doesn't need Intelligence, he uses Charisma. But, you're correct in the statement. Any suggestions as to clear up the wording?


4. With Arts of War and Mercy and the Combat Medic, couldn't you just eliminate the Arcane/Divine divide altogether? The Red Mage doesn't seem to have any Arcane spells that heal, nor Divine spells that deal, hit point damage.

Good point, on that one. Will change it up.

[Gnorman]

No, this doesn't affect your ACTUAL caster level. Rather, it basically gives you, say, do 6d4 Fire Damage from Burning Hands, rather than be capped out at 5.

That being said, would adding "You deal damage as if you had +1 Caster Level." be an alright addition?

No, I understand that. What I'm asking is, if I can get caster level increases from other sources (Arcane Thesis adds +2, reserve feats add +1, etc.), does that mean I can pump the CL up to whatever? Like, if Shocking Grasp is my Arcane Thesis spell, and I have the Storm Bolt reserve feat, my CL for Shocking Grasp should be 10 (with Spell Power), and then I can do 10d6 channeled attacks, yeah?

I like the removing of caps as an ability. It's certainly cooler than +1 CL and opens up some interesting interactions with feats. I just wanted to make sure I was reading it right.


Last one. Although, the Spellslinger doesn't need Intelligence, he uses Charisma. But, you're correct in the statement. Any suggestions as to clear up the wording?

Whoops, yeah, meant Charisma. I'd just say something along the lines of "he adds his Charisma modifier as a bonus to damage dealt via spells, and his Wisdom modifier as a bonus to damage healed via spells."

[Sgt. Cookie]

Yes. If you get Caster Level boosts from other sources, they count.

As for the +1 Caster Level thing, that was actually an addition to the cap removal... until I looked at the class again and remembered that was an ability inherent to the class. Instead, I have something that ought to make any Blaster happy.

(Ok, I can't wait for the revision: It upgrades the Damage Die by one step. So a d4 becomes a d6. Only affects SPELLS though, not Reserve Feats. Although I will make a note that the Moderate Power CAN be used with Reserve Feats. I will also mention that his 6th level Bonus Feat can be a Reserve Feat.)

[Sgt. Cookie]

So, Spellslinger V2. Still some stuff needs updating, but this is what I have so far.




The Spellslinger



Hit Die: 1d8
Class Skills: Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Heal, Jump, Knowledge (All), Listen, Perform, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Speak Language, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival, Swim, and Use Magic Device.
Skill Points: 4 + Int per level (4x at 1st)




Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special
0lvl
1st
2nd


1st
+0
+0
+2
+2
Archetype Power (Lesser), Spellcasting, Panache
5
0+0*
—


2nd
+1
+0
+3
+3
The Arts of War and Mercy
6
1+1
—


3rd
+2
+1
+3
+3
Archetype Power (Moderate)
6
2+2
—


4th
+3
+1
+4
+4
Spell Power
6
3+3
0+0*


5th
+3
+1
+4
+4
Metamagical
6
3+3
1+1


6th
+4
+2
+5
+5
Greater Archetype Power, Bonus Feat
6
3+3
2+2




*Provided the Spellslinger has a high enough Charisma or Wisdom score to get a bonus spell of this level.



Proficiencies: The Spellslinger is proficient with light armour, and all simple weapons, plus the longsword, rapier, sap, short sword, shortbow, and whip. He is also proficient with Bucklers and Light Shields (But not Heavy or Tower Shields). He does not suffer from arcane spell failure incurred by Light Armour, Bucklers or Light Shields.

Spellcasting: A Spellslinger casts both Arcane and Divine spells, from two specialised lists which are included below. The Spellslinger need not prepare his spells ahead of time, he may cast them spontaneously. The first set of spell slots in each column are his Arcane spells per day; the second his Divine spells per day.

Cantrips and Orisons are interchangeable, slot-wise. He still requires 8 hours of rest to refresh his spells.

A Spellslinger requires both Charisma and Wisdom, which determines the DC and bonus spells of his Arcane and Divine spells, respectively.

Archetype Power: At 1st level, the Spellslinger chooses an archetype from the following list. Each Archetype offers a set of powers and adds bonus spells known to the Spellslinger's list, which are listed below and received when he becomes capable of casting spells of the same level. The first spell in a pair is added to his Arcane list and the second to his Divine.

Panache (Ex): A Spellslinger may substitute his Charisma modifier for his Strength or Dexterity modifier when making an attack roll with a simple weapon, a longsword, a rapier, a sap, a shortsword, a shortbow, or a whip; or an attack roll with a weapon-like spell or effect.

The Arts of War and Mercy (Ex): A Spellslinger adds his Charisma Modifier to Weapon Damage rolls (See Panache for applicable weapons) and to the damage of all spells that deals Hit Point Damage.

A Spellslinger adds his Wisdom Modifier to your AC, as long as he wears light or no armour, and to the amount of hit points healed by any spell that heals Hit Point damage.

Spell Power (Ex): A Spellslinger adds 1 to the Save DC of his Spells and to his Effective Caster Level for determining level-dependent spell variables such as damage dice or range, and to all Caster Level checks. His actual Caster Level does not change.

Metamagical (Ex): Whenever a Spellslinger uses a Metamagic Feat, the feat's level increase upon a spell is reduced by one (this can't reduce an increase to less than one level, or less than zero levels if the increase is already +0) and does not cause an increase in Casting Time.

Additionally, the Spellslinger may, a number of times per day equal to the relevant Ability Modifer (I.e, Charisma for Arcane Spells), cast a Metamagic adjusted spell as if he had a Third level Arcane and Divine spell slot (Yes, Heighten Spell can be used. No Heighten Spell cannot be reduced.).

This allows a Spellslinger to qualify for Feats as if he could cast, and knew, a Third Level Spell.

In the case of Reserve Feats, you use your actual Spells and Spell Slots to determine if you can "use" the Feat, but the Spells are treated as if they were one level higher. (I.e, an uncast 2nd level spell activates Feats as if it were 3rd level.)

Bonus Feat (Ex): At sixth level, a Spellslinger gains a Bonus Feat, chosen from the list of Fighter Bonus Feats, any Metamagic Feat, any Reserve Feat or any Item Creation Feat.

The Spellslinger must meet the prerequisites for the feat, but is treated as if he had a BAB of +6 and already possessed one Metamagic feat.


Spellslinger Spell Lists:


Arcane:
0: Acid Splash, Detect Magic, Inflict Minor Wounds, Read Magic, Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost
1st: Burning Hands, Chill Touch, Colour Spray, Inflict Minor Wounds, Magic Missile, Produce Flame, Ray of Enfeeblement, Shield, Shocking Grasp
2nd: Acid Arrow, Align Weapon, Flaming Sphere, Ghoul Touch, Inflict Moderate Wounds, Scorching Ray, Shatter


Divine:
0: Cure Minor Wounds, Detect Poison, Guidance, Purify Food and Drink, Resistance,
1st: Cure Light Wounds, Deathwatch, Detect Good/Evil/Chaos/Law, Mage Armour, Magic Weapon, Protection from Good/Evil/Law/Chaos, Shield of Faith
2nd: Aid, Blur, Cure Moderate Wounds, Protection from Arrows, Resist Energy, Spiritual Weapon, Status



Archetypes

Duskblade


Bonus Spells:
1st: True Strike, Cause Fear
2nd: Touch of Idiocy, Eagle's Spleandour

Lesser Archetype Power: If an Arcane Spell's Damage is dependent on the Duskblade's Caster Level, he ignores any restrictions or maximums to the damage inherent to the spell. (Such as Burning Hand's maximum of 5d4). Additionally, all damage dice are increased by one step, to a maximum of a D10 (Spells at or above this do not change). Increase goes: D2/D3 -> D4 -> D6 ->D8 -> D10.

Moderate Archetype Power: A Duskblade can use a Standard Action to cast any Arcane touch or ranged touch spell he knows, and deliver the spell (Or the damage of a Reserve Feat he possesses) through his weapon with a Melee attack. Casting a spell in this manner does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action or less. If the melee attack is successful, the attack deals damage normally; then the effect of the spell is resolved.

Greater Archetype Power: Once per Encounter, a Duskblade may have his Acid, Cold, Electricity and Fire Arcane spells deal damage as if it were one of the other four. (For instance, Acid Arrow dealing Fire damage, or Burning Hands dealing Cold damage.)


Combat Medic


Bonus Spells:
1st: Cure Light Wounds*, Sanctuary
2nd: Cure Moderate Wounds*, Lesser Restoration
*Yes, added to the Arcane List.


Lesser Archetype Power: Anyone healed Hit Point damage by a Combat Medic gains Temporary Hitpoints equal to the Combat Medic's Wisdom Modifier, that last for a number of rounds equal to half that number.

Additionally, as an At-Will Supernatural ability, a Combat Medic may Stabilise a Dying Ally within Close Range as if he had magically healed 1 point of damage. (But no damage is actually healed, so no temporary Hitpoints. Sorry.)


Moderate Archetype Power: A number of times per day equal to his Wisdom Modifier, a Combat Medic may cast any Cure X spell as an Immediate Action.


Greater Archetype Power: Once per Encounter, a Combat Medic may cast any Cure X spell as if it were Maximised.



Magician

Bonus Spells:
1st: Disguise Self, Divine Favour
2nd: Heroism, Resist Energy

Lesser Archetype Power: Once per encounter, a Magician may ignore the Somatic and Verbal components of any spell he casts.

Moderate Archetype Power: A Magician can recover some spells with a partial rest. For every hour a Magician rests, he recovers 2 Cantrips and 1 Arcane or Divine spell, starting with his 1st level spells. If he has all his 1st level spells, he can recover his 2nd level spells. (ALL his 1st level spells, if he has all his 1st level Arcane spells, but no Divine, he recovers his 1st level Divine spells before he can get a 2nd level spell.)

If the Magician rests for 8 hours uninterrupted, he recovers all his spells as standard.*

Greater Archetype Power: A Magician who knows the contents of a scroll may, instead of casting it, choose to commit the spell to memory, using it as one of his Known spells. He can only do this with 0, 1st or 2nd level Spells. He may have two spells in this manner, one Arcane spell and one Divine spell. Learning a new spell via this ability causes you to forget the old one.


*
Ok, so, this may not be the clearest ability. So, I'll try to go into more details.

Basically, this ability lets you "partially rest" to recover "some" spells. I think you got that part. Every hour, select an Arcane slot or Divine slot. Boom, you can cast a spell.

So, normally, Spellcasters need 8 hours of uninterrupted rest to get their spellslots back, like a light switch. Sit down with 0 spells, 8 hours later *ding* you can cast again. This ability allows for spells to be returned gradually, so you can provide some secondary healing in an emergency situation, or grab that extra Burning Hands spell that you really, really need.

What this ability is NOT is a way for you to "go nova" every fight. Because recovering spells this way is actually slower than normal, because at Level 6, you have TEN spells, not counting Bonus Spells. If we assume that, somehow, you have a 20 in both Charisma and Wisdom, you get an extra four 1st level spells (2 Arcane, 2 Divine) and two extra 2nd level spells (1 Arcane, 1 Divine) for a grand total of sixteen spells. To recover them all JUST through this ability would require 16 hours of rest. Double the 8 hours required to recover spells normally.

[Gnorman]

WHAT IS THIS AN UPDATE WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT

seriously, here's a rough preview of the updated Scoundrel


The Rogue

HD: d8
Class Skills: Appraise, Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (dungeoneering), Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (local), Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Perform, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Swim, Tumble. Use Magic Device, Use Rope
Skill Points: 8 + Int per level (4x at 1st)



Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special
Luck Pool


1st
+0
+0
+2
+0
Archetype Power (Lesser), Sneak Attack +1d6, Trapfinding, Rogue's Luck
3


2nd
+1
+0
+3
+0
Blindsider, Evasion
4


3rd
+2
+1
+3
+1
Archetype Power (Moderate), Sneak Attack +2d6
4


4th
+3
+1
+4
+1
Better Lucky Than Good, Uncanny Dodge
5


5th
+3
+1
+4
+1
Opportunity Knocks, Sneak Attack +3d6
5


6th
+4
+2
+5
+2
Archetype Power (Greater), A Dashing Rogue
6



Proficiencies: The rogue is proficient with light armor and bucklers. He is proficient with simple weapons, the rapier, the longsword, the shortbow, the short sword, the sap, and the hand crossbow.

Archetype: At 1st level, the rogue chooses an archetype from the list below. He gains the advantages and abilities of the archetype at the appropriate levels, as indicated in the list. Once made, this choice is final.

Sneak Attack: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#sneakAttack) As the rogue ability.

Trapfinding: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#trapfinding) As the rogue ability.

Rogue's Luck: A rogue has a small pool of Luck points that allow him to gain advantages both in combat and out. The rogue's maximum pool of Luck is equal to the number given in the class table for the appropriate level. At the beginning of an encounter, the rogue begins with a full Luck pool, which replenishes itself over time naturally - in combat, a rogue regains one point of Luck at the end of his turn each round; out of combat, a rogue regains one point of luck each minute. A rogue may spend one or more Luck points as an immediate action, usually in concert with another die roll. However, the rogue must choose to spend Luck points before rolling. By spending these points, the Rogue may add additional dice to the roll, increase his damage, or achieve other effects, listed below:

The Right Angle: For every two Luck points spent as part of a sneak attack, a rogue deals an additional 1d6 of sneak attack damage.

Lucky Break: By spending one Luck point a part of an attack, skill, or saving throw roll, a rogue may roll an additional d4 and add the result of that die to his check. A rogue may also spend additional Luck on the same roll - for each additional point of Luck spent, the additional die increases by a step, to a maximum of a d12.

Critical Strike: By spending two Luck points as part of a sneak attack, a rogue may ignore the sneak attack or critical immunity of his target, but dealing only half damage. By spending four Luck points, a rogue deals full damage instead.

Blindsider: The rogue gains a +4 bonus to attacks made while flanking, instead of +2. Sneak attacks made while flanking add an additional point of damage per die.

Evasion: As the rogue ability.

Better Lucky Than Good: Once per day, a rogue may choose to spend Luck points after rolling, but before hearing the result of the roll. In addition, a rogue now regains Luck points at a rate of two per round while in combat, and two per minute while out.

Uncanny Dodge: As the rogue ability.

Opportunity Knocks: If the rogue successfully sneak attacks an opponent who is completely unaware of his presence, the sneak attack damage is maximized.

A Dashing Rogue: Once per day, the rogue may make use of one of the following abilities:

Close Shave: As an immediate action, the rogue may negate a melee or ranged attack that would otherwise have brought him to 0 or negative hit points, as if the attack had missed. He may then immediately take a move action.

Ghost of a Chance: For the remainder of the encounter, the rogue gains concealment and may hide in plain sight, as the Shadowdancer ability.

Seven-Leaf Clover: The rogue may spend Luck points to alter a roll even after the results of the roll have been announced.


Archetypes:


Assassin

Lesser Archetype Power: An assassin is trained in the use of poison and immune to its effects. He may also apply poison as a swift action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity for doing so. In addition, by spending one hour using an alchemist's lab, he may craft a day's supply of poison without expending additional time or materials, or actually making a Craft check. However, to do so, he must spend Luck points, and Luck points spent in this way do not regenerate for 24 hours. By doing so, an assassin gains access to an unlimited supply of various types of poisons, the total value of which cannot exceed 100 gp per point of Luck spent. For example, by spending three Luck points (and thus reducing his maximum pool of Luck accordingly), he could have access to a limitless supply of sassone leaf residue, or spent four Luck points and have access to an unlimited supply of large scorpion venom, giant wasp venom, and drow poison (total value: 485 gp).
Moderate Archetype Power: The save DC of any poison used by an assassin is increased by a number equal to his Intelligence modifier. In addition, by spending three points of luck as a swift action, he may force a poisoned opponent to immediately save or suffer the secondary effects of the poison currently coursing through its veins.
Greater Archetype Power: As part of a sneak attack, an assassin may spend six points of Luck to make a Death Attack. If the sneak attack hits and deals damage, the target must make a Fortitude save (DC = 13 + the assassin's Intelligence modifier) or immediately die. In addition, an assassin may now poison even creatures that are immune to poison damage, though at a -4 penalty to the poison's DC.


Beguiler

Lesser Archetype Power: A beguiler may cast a small number of spells from the Wizard list, as outlined in the table below. A beguiler casts spontaneously, just as the Wizard does, and knows all the spells of the appropriate level. The beguiler does not suffer from arcane spell failure imposed by light armor, and his primary spellcasting ability is Intelligence.



Spells Per Day




Level
0
1
2


1st
2
-
-


2nd
3
0*
-


3rd
3
1
-


4th
3
2
0*


5th
3
3
1


6th
3
3
2




* provided that the beguiler has an Intelligence score high enough to convey a bonus spell of that level

Moderate Archetype Power: A beguiler may spend Luck to enhance the capabilities of his spells. A beguiler may spend three points of Luck to increase the DC of the spell by 1, or may spend two points of Luck to gain a +2 bonus to overcome the spell resistance of the target. A beguiler may spend as many points of luck on these abilities as he has, and may mix and match as he sees fit.
Greater Archetype Power: Whenever a beguiler is the target of a mind-affecting ability and fails a save, he may spend three points of Luck to immediately attempt a new save. If the second save fails, he may not spend additional Luck to try again.



Swashbuckler

Lesser Archetype Power: Whenever a swashbuckler regains Luck, he regains an additional point on top of the normal recovery rate. In addition, his maximum Luck is increased by half his Charisma modifier, and he gains the benefits of the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, even if he does not qualify for it.
Moderate Archetype Power: As long as a swashbuckler's Luck pool is full, he gains half that number, rounded down, as a bonus to his armor class and all saving throws.
Greater Archetype Power: By spending Luck points, a swashbuckler may take additional actions in a single round. By spending three points, a swashbuckler may take an additional move action. By spending four points, a swashbuckler may take an additional standard action. And by spending six points, a swashbuckler may take an additional full-round action.

[darklink_shadow]

Hmm. I'd enjoy the swashbuckler. I don't really like poison based characters with both the ability to make their own poison without paying for it, and the ability somehow by pass all the immunities thrown around all willy nilly.

And I've never liked the arcane trickster. But that said, others might, and this being E6, fewer things will be immune to poison.

[Gnorman]

Hmm. I'd enjoy the swashbuckler. I don't really like poison based characters with both the ability to make their own poison without paying for it, and the ability somehow by pass all the immunities thrown around all willy nilly.

And I've never liked the arcane trickster. But that said, others might, and this being E6, fewer things will be immune to poison.

Well, the original Silencer archetype could bypass poison immunity, which is an ability I'm not opposed to bringing in to the Assassin's fold.

As to the Beguiler, that was a nod to the fact that I'm hoping to have a half-casting archetype for each non-casting class.

Swashbuckler's a bit basic, but I think it strikes an interesting balance between "I have all the Luck and I know how to use it" and "oh but wait if I conserve it, I'm much harder to kill."

[darklink_shadow]

The Swashbuckler is a little basic, but it's got a good fun kit. Could use more chandelier, though.

It would be nice if there was some built in interaction with Luck Feats for the core rogue, maybe. Or maybe not.

[Gnorman]

The Swashbuckler is a little basic, but it's got a good fun kit. Could use more chandelier, though.

It would be nice if there was some built in interaction with Luck Feats for the core rogue, maybe. Or maybe not.

They're on separate tracks and operate a bit differently (Luck Points are patterned after Action Points and add to an existing roll, whereas Luck rerolls generally allow you to do just that, reroll), but some interaction could be nice. Perhaps every two/three Luck Feats increases your maximum Luck by one? I worry that any more than that, and the Swashbuckler may break the action economy open entirely.

On an unrelated note: I am in the process of trying to add more Pathfinder compatibility to the base classes - you'll notice now that there is a Pathfinder skill list entry for each class (or, at least, there will be shortly). Spell lists won't change, as I'm trying to keep myself to core there, but future casting classes will have more robust and customizable mechanics for adding new spells to their lists.

Also: another preview of an updated class! Please welcome the Sorcerer, formerly known as the Red Mage. He's abandoned a bit of his martial skill in return for greater mastery over magic and the elements. The spell list has been altered somewhat, removing summoning spells and adding in a few more blasting spells for good measure. The sorcerer's role is fairly well-defined now - destroy your enemies (with fire), see them driven before you (by fire), and hear the lamentations of their women (who are also on fire).


The Sorcerer

HD: d8
Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Jump, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (dungeoneering), Knowledge (the planes), Profession, Ride, Spellcraft, Swim, Tumble
Skill Points: 4 + Int per level (4x at 1st)



Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special
0
1
2
3
4


1st
+0
+2
+0
+2
Archetype Power (Lesser), Spellcasting, Elemental Blast (1d6)
5
4
-
-
-


2nd
+1
+3
+0
+3
Advanced Learning, Energy Transference
6
5
-
-
-


3rd
+2
+3
+1
+3
Archetype Power (Moderate), Elemental Blast (2d6)
6
6
3
-
-


4th
+3
+4
+1
+4
Advanced Learning, Metamagic Mastery
6
6
4
-
-


5th
+3
+4
+1
+4
Blaster Master, Elemental Blast (3d6)
6
6
5
3
-


6th
+4
+5
+2
+5
Advanced Learning, Arcane Might, Archetype Power (Greater)
6
6
6
4
3



Proficiencies: The sorcerer is proficient with light armor, simple weapons, and martial weapons. He does not suffer from arcane failure while in light armor.

Spellcasting: The sorcerer casts arcane spells from a specialized list, which is included below. The sorcerer need not prepare spells ahead of time - he may spontaneously cast any spell on his list from the appropriate slot. He still requires eight hours of rest to refresh his spells. His sole casting stat is Charisma, which dictates both the DC of his spells and his bonus spells. To cast a spell, the sorcerer must have an Charisma score equal to 10 + the level of spell in question.

Archetype: At 1st level, the sorcerer chooses an archetype from the following list. Once made, the choice is final. Each archetype offers a set of powers, which are listed below.

Elemental Blast: The sorcerer is capable of firing a projectile made of elemental energy, providing him with a method of dealing damage even when his spells are exhausted. An elemental blast is a ray with a range of 60 feet. It is a ranged touch attack that affects a single target and allows no saving throw. It deals 1d6 damage at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two levels thereafter, to a maximum of 3d6. In addition, it deals additional damage equal to the sorcerer's Constitution modifier. At 1st level, the sorcerer chooses a damage type: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. The sorcerer's elemental blast deals damage of that type. However, by spending one hour in uninterrupted meditation, the sorcerer can attune his elemental blast to another one of those four energy types. In all other respects, treat an elemental blast as a spell-like ability with a caster level equal to the sorcerer's hit dice.

Advanced Learning: At 2nd level, 4th, and 6th level, the sorcerer may add two spells to his list of spells known. These spells may not be of a higher level than he is capable of casting at the time, and in any case no higher than 3rd level. These spells may only be drawn from spells on the Sorcerer/Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm) list, and may only be from the schools of Abjuration, Evocation, or Transmutation.

Energy Transference: When casting a spell that deals elemental damage (acid, cold, fire, electricity, or sonic), the sorcerer may elect to have it deal damage of a different type instead. So he may cast a Freezing Ray that deals 4d6 cold damage, instead of a Scorching Ray, or may cast an Acid Bolt instead of a Lightning Bolt.

Metamagic Mastery: Whenever the sorcerer applies metamagic to one of his spells, the level increase required is reduced by one, to a minimum of one (or zero, if the feat did not have an associated increase in spell level). Thus, the cost to Empower a spell would be reduced from +2 to +1, but the cost to Extend a spell would remain the same.

Blaster Master: The sorcerer's elemental blast now threatens a critical hit on a roll of 19-20, and deals triple damage on a critical hit. In addition, if the sorcerer does confirm a critical hit, the target of the blast must make a save or suffer further ill effects, as dictated by the blast's elemental type. The DC of the save is equal to the

Acid: The target must make a Fortitude save or be nauseated for a round.
Cold: The target must make a Fortitude save or be slowed, as the spell, for a round.
Electricity: The target must make a Will save or be stunned for a round.
Fire: The target must make a Reflex save or be blinded for a round.

If the sorcerer's elemental blast does not require an attack roll (such as in the case of the Dragon Disciple), this ability instead increases the damage dice of the blast to 3d8, and applies the appropriate effect whenever a target of the blast fails its original Reflex save by 5 or more. If the elemental blast is being channeled through a weapon instead of being used directly, it applies the effect if the weapon attack itself is a critical hit.

Arcane Might: The sorcerer gains a small number of 4th-level spell slots, as indicated in the class table. However, he does not learn any 4th-level spells, nor does he become capable of doing so. These slots are only capable of holding spells of 3rd-level or lower, modified by metamagic to take up 4th-level slots.

Sorcerer Spell List:
0: Acid Splash, Dancing Lights, Daze, Detect Magic, Flare, Mage Hand, Message, Prestidigitation, Read Magic
1: Alarm, Burning Hands, Endure Elements, Enlarge Person, Entropic Shield, Grease, Jump, Magic Missile, Magic Weapon, Mount, Produce Flame, Shield, Shocking Grasp, True Strike
2: Acid Arrow, Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Continual Flame, Eagle's Splendor, Flame Blade, Flaming Sphere, Glitterdust, Levitate, Protection from Arrows, Pyrotechnics, Resist Energy, Scorching Ray
3: Dispel Magic, Explosive Runes, Fireball, Flame Arrow, Fly, Haste, Heroism, Greater Magic Weapon, Keen Edge, Lightning Bolt, Phantom Steed, Protection from Energy, Sleet Storm, Slow


Archetypes


Arcane Archer

Lesser Archetype Power: An arcane archer may channel his elemental blast through his weapon as part of a ranged attack. If the attack is successful, the arcane archer deals additional damage to the target as if the target had been hit by his elemental blast. If the arcane archer has multiple attacks in a round or strikes multiple targets with a single attack (for example, by using the Rapid Shot feat, or using the hail of arrows ability below), each attack deals the full elemental blast damage.
Moderate Archetype Power: An arcane archer is now capable of imbuing his arrows with area-of-effect spells. It requires a standard action to both cast the spell and fire the projectile. When the projectile is fired, the spell takes effect as if it was centered on where the arrow lands. If the spell in question does not have a center (such as a cone, or a line), then it takes effect diametrically opposite the direction from which it was fired.
Greater Archetype Power: An arcane archer can fire a hail of arrows (or other ranged projectiles) as a full-round action, striking multiple targets within range of his weapon, up to a maximum number of targets equal to his class level. The arcane archer uses his primary attack bonus for each of these attacks. The arcane archer may use this ability a number of times per day equal to the arcane archer's Dexterity modifier. In addition, all projectiles fired or thrown by an arcane archer become magical, receiving a +1 enhancement bonus.


Dragon Disciple

Lesser Archetype Power: A dragon disciple's elemental blast takes the form of a breath weapon instead. The dragon discipline may choose to have it be either a 30' cone, or a 60' line, but the choice is permanent once made. While it no longer requires an attack roll, it now offers a Reflex saving throw to halve the damage - the DC is equal to 10 + 1/2 the dragon disciple's hit dice + the dragon disciple's Constitution modifier. Unlike the standard elemental blast, the dragon disciple's breath weapon is not useable at will - once the dragon discipline does so, he must wait 1d4 rounds before using it again. In addition, a dragon disciple gains a bonus to natural armor equal to his Constitution modifier.
Moderate Archetype Power: A dragon disciple gains immunity to the energy type used by his breath weapon. In addition, a dragon disciple gains blindsense out to 30'.
Greater Archetype Power: A dragon disciple gains a pair of draconic wings, giving it the ability to fly at its base land speed, with average maneuverability.


Warmage

Lesser Archetype Power: Whenever a warmage casts a spell that deals hit point damage, he deals an additional amount of damage equal to his Intelligence modifier. A spell cannot gain this additional damage more than once per casting.
Moderate Archetype Power: Whenever a warmage casts an area-of-effect spell, he may omit a number of targets from the spell's effects equal to his Intelligence modifier.
Greater Archetype Power: A warmage learns how to overcome the elemental resistances of even the hardiest of creatures. Whenever a warmage deals elemental damage, half of the damage is not subject to any elemental resistance or immunity.

Also, some Sorcerer-specific feats:

Improved Elemental Blast
Prerequisite: Elemental Blast 2d6
Benefit: Your elemental blast's damage die increases by one step, such as from a d6 to a d8.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, increasing the damage by one die each time. However, your elemental blast damage die cannot exceed a d12.

Elemental Channeling:
Prerequisite: Elemental Blast 1d6, BAB +1
Benefit: As part of a melee attack, you may also your channel your elemental blast through your weapon. If the melee attack is successful, you also deal damage equal to your normal elemental blast damage.
Normal: Using your elemental blast ability is a standard action that requires a ranged touch attack.

Elemental Shield:
Prerequisite: Elemental Blast 2d6,
Benefit: You may focus your elemental blast into a shield of energy as a standard action. For the duration of the ability, you gain a +2 shield bonus to your armor class, and any opponent that strikes you in melee takes damage equal to your elemental blast damage. However, while this ability is active, you may not activate your elemental blast ability in any other way. This ability lasts a number of rounds equal to your Constitution modifier, and may be ended prematurely as a swift action.

and, while we're at it...

Introducing the Warlock (formerly the Black Mage)! He's a bit more fun now, with more summons, better summons, even permanent summons, as well as a fun new curse ability and a "warlock pact" ability that I haven't quite finished writing yet. Archetypes are generally summon-focused (demonologist & necromancer), or debuff-focused (hexblade).


The Warlock

HD: d6
Class Skills: Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (dungeoneering), Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes), Profession, Spellcraft
Skill Points: 2 + Int per level (4x at 1st)



Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special
0
1
2
3


1st
+0
+0
+0
+2
Archetype Power (Lesser), Rebuke Undead, Spellcasting
5
4
-
-


2nd
+1
+0
+0
+3
Advanced Learning, Fiendish Familiar
6
5
-
-


3rd
+1
+1
+1
+3
Archetype Power (Moderate), Warlock's Curse
6
6
3
-


4th
+2
+1
+1
+4
Advanced Learning, Fell Command
6
6
4
-


5th
+2
+1
+1
+4
Black Speech
6
6
5
3


6th
+3
+2
+2
+5
Archetype Power (Greater), Advanced Learning, Eldritch Pact
6
6
6
4



Proficiencies: The warlock is proficient with light armor and simple weapons. He does not suffer from arcane failure while in light armor.

Archetype: At 1st level, the warlock chooses an archetype from the following list, each of which offer different benefits. Once made, the choice is final.

Spellcasting: The warlock casts arcane spells from a specialized list, which is included below. The warlock need not prepare spells ahead of time - he may spontaneously cast any spell on his list from the appropriate slot. He still requires eight hours of rest to refresh his spells. His sole casting stat is Intelligence, which dictates both the DC of his spells and his bonus spells. To cast a spell, the warlock must have an Intelligence score equal to 10 + the level of spell in question.

Rebuke Undead: The warlock may rebuke undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. He rebukes undead as a cleric of his class level.

Advanced Learning: At 2nd level, 4th, and 6th level, the warlock may add two spells to his list of spells known. These spells may not be of a higher level than he is capable of casting at the time. These spells may only be drawn from spells on the Cleric or Sorcerer/Wizard list, and may only be from the schools of Conjuration or Necromancy.

Fiendish Familiar: By performing a ritual that requires 8 hours of uninterrupted meditation and the expenditure of 100gp worth of magical materials, the warlock may summon any creature he could normally summon with a summon monster spell to permanently serve him as a familiar. The warlock may only have one such creature serving him in this extended manner. Treat this creature as if it was a familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#familiars), except that it retains its normal hit points, base attack bonus, and intelligence score if it would be higher than what it would receive as a familiar. The warlock does not lose experience upon the death of the creature, and may resummon the familiar simply by repeating the ritual, rather than waiting a year and a day.

Warlock's Curse: As a standard action, the warlock may curse a single opponent, who receives a Will save to resist (the DC is equal to 10 + half the warlock's hit dice + the warlock's Charisma modifier). If the opponent fails the save, he receives a penalty to attacks, saves, ability checks, skill checks equal to half the warlock's Charisma modifier, until the end of the encounter. Only one opponent may be under the effects of a warlock's curse at any one time - should the warlock curse a new target, the old target no longer suffers from the curse's penalties. The warlock may use this ability a number of times per day equal to his Charisma modifier. Treat this ability as a spell-like ability with a caster level equal to the warlock's hit dice.

Fell Command: All creatures summoned by a warlock gain a morale bonus to attack and damage rolls equal to half the warlock's Charisma modifier.

Black Speech: The penalties conferred by the warlock's curse ability are now equal to the warlock's full Charisma modifier, and the warlock no longer has a limit on the number of opponents that may be cursed at any one time.

Eldritch Pact: The warlock, having reached the pinnacle of his skills, gains the attention of a powerful entity beyond the ken of humankind. This entity offers otherworldly power, though perhaps not without a price. The warlock selects a single pact from the list below. Once per day, as a free action, the warlock may invoke this pact, gaining its beneficial effects for a number of rounds equal to his Charisma modifier.

[pacts still in progress]

Warlock Spell List:
0: Acid Splash, Detect Magic, Disrupt Undead, Inflict Minor Wounds, Mage Hand, Message, Prestidigitation, Read Magic, Touch of Fatigue
1: Bane, Cause Fear, Chill Touch, Command, Deathwatch, Detect Undead, Disguise Self, Doom, Entropic Shield, Inflict Light Wounds, Protection from Alignment, Ray of Enfeeblement, Summon Monster I
2: Blindness/Deafness, Command Undead, Darkness, Death Knell, Desecrate, False Life, Ghoul Touch, Inflict Moderate Wounds, Spectral Hand, Scare, Spider Climb, Summon Monster II, Summon Swarm, Touch of Idiocy, Undetectable Alignment, Web
3: Animate Dead, Bestow Curse, Contagion, Crushing Despair, Deeper Darkness, Dispel Magic, Halt Undead, Inflict Serious Wounds, Magic Circle Against Alignment, Poison, Ray of Exhaustion, Remove Curse, Speak with Dead, Stinking Cloud, Summon Monster III, Vampiric Touch


Archetypes


Demonologist

Lesser Archetype Power: The casting time of any conjuration [summoning] spell cast by a demonologist is reduced to one standard action. If it is already a standard action or faster, this power has no effect.
Moderate Archetype Power: Any conjuration [summoning] spell cast by a demonologist is automatically extended, with no increase in the spell slot required. However, this ability only affects spells with a spell level equal to or lower than half the demonologist's level - so at 3rd level, only 1st-level spells are extended, while 3rd-level spells are not automatically extended until the demonologist reaches 6th level.
Greater Archetype Power Three times per day, a demonologist may summon a creature from the summon monster IV list, using a summon monster III spell. However, this does not qualify creatures on the summon monster IV list to serve as a demonologist's familiar. In addition, he adds the following creatures to the list of creatures summonable by the summon monster III spell: the imp, the quasit, and the vargouille. These creatures are capable of serving as familiars.


Hexblade

Lesser Archetype Power: A hexblade is proficient with medium armor, shields (except for tower shields), and martial weapons, and does not suffer from arcane spell failure from medium armor or shields. Additionally, a hexblade gains a bonus equal to his Charisma modifier on saves against spells and spell-like abilities or effects.
Moderate Archetype Power: A hexblade exudes an aura of despair, causing all opponents within 10' to take a -2 penalty to all saves. This ability does not stack with itself, but does stack with other, similar effects such as the warlock's curse. In addition, any opponent that is afflicted by the warlock's curse ability takes untyped damage equal to the hexblade's Charisma modifier at the beginning of its turn each round. If an opponent dies due to this damage (and not merely while under the effects of the curse), the warlock regains a use of his curse ability. A hexblade may also use his warlock's curse ability as a swift action.
Greater Archetype Power: Targets of the hexblade's curse now take untyped damage equal to twice the hexblade's Charisma modifier. In addition, if a target dies due to the damage from a hexblade's curse, all other opponents within 30' must make a Will save or be afflicted by the warlock's curse as well.


Necromancer

Lesser Archetype Power: A necromancer adds the following creatures to the list of monsters summonable by his summon monster spells.

Summon Monster I:
Skeleton, human warrior
Zombie, human commoner

Summon Monster II:
Ghoul
Skeleton, owlbear
Zombie, bugbear

Summon Monster III:
Ghast
Skeleton, troll
Zombie, ogre

Moderate Archetype Power: Any zombies created or commanded by a necromancer lose the "Single Actions Only" quality. In addition, when using his rebuke undead ability, a necromancer may command a number of undead whose hit dice do not exceed twice his class level.
Greater Archetype Power Three times per day, when casting summon monster III, a necromancer may choose to summon one of the following creatures: an allip, a shadow, or a wight. The necromancer may not extend the services of these creatures via his Fiendish Familiar ability, and they are not capable of creating any spawn from opponents that they kill.

ALSO


The Cleric

HD: d8
Class Skills: Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Heal, Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes), Profession, Sense Motive, Spellcraft
Skill Points: 2 + Int per level (4x at 1st)



Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special
0
1
2
3


1st
+0
+0
+0
+2
Archetype Power (Lesser), Spellcasting, Turn Undead
5
4
-
-


2nd
+1
+0
+0
+3
Divine Aspect
6
5
-
-


3rd
+1
+1
+1
+3
Archetype Power (Moderate)
6
6
3
-


4th
+2
+1
+1
+4
Flexible Faith
6
6
4
-


5th
+2
+1
+1
+4
Pantheism
6
6
5
3


6th
+3
+2
+2
+5
Archetype Power (Greater), Enemy of the Faith
6
6
6
4



Proficiencies: The cleric is proficient with light armor, medium armor, shields (except tower shields) and simple weapons.

Spellcasting: The cleric casts divine spells from a specialized list, which is included below. The cleric need not prepare spells ahead of time - he may spontaneously cast any spell on his list from the appropriate slot. He still requires eight hours of rest to refresh his spells. His sole casting stat is Wisdom, which dictates both the DC of his spells and his bonus spells. To cast a spell, the cleric must have a Wisdom score equal to 10 + the level of spell in question.

Archetype: At 1st level, the cleric chooses an archetype from the following list. Once made, the choice is final. Each archetype offers the cleric a different set of abilities.

Turn Undead: The cleric may turn undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm#turnorRebukeUndead) as a cleric of his class level. He may do so a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier.

Divine Aspect: At the beginning of each day, after resting to refresh his spells, the cleric may choose to venerate a particular god, ideal, or philosophy, taken from the list below. By doing so, he gains the abilities conferred by that aspect. He may also add one spell per spell level he is capable of casting to his list of spells known, subject to the restrictions listed in the aspect entry. If the cleric no longer venerates the aspect that conferred those bonus spells, they are removed from his list of spells known. Unless otherwise noted, the cleric may only venerate a single aspect each day; choosing to venerate a new aspect removes the benefits of the previous one.

Flexible Faith: Once per day, the cleric may replace one chosen divine aspect with another. Doing so requires five minutes of meditation and prayer, but allows the cleric to gain new abilities and select new bonus spells as per the new aspect.

Pantheism: The cleric may now venerate two aspects at a single time, chosen after resting to refresh his spells.

Enemy of the Faith: The cleric is especially skilled at rooting out and destroying enemies of his chosen faith. The cleric selects one of the following abilities, and permanently gains the benefits listed therein.

Witchhunter: The cleric gains a bonus equal to his Charisma modifier on all saving throws made against arcane spells or arcane spell-like abilities. In addition, any arcane spellcaster or creature capable of casting arcane spell-like abilities struck by the cleric must make a Will save (DC equal to 10 + half the cleric's level + the cleric's Charisma modifier). If the creature fails the save, all spells or spell-like abilities that it attempts to cast in the next minute have a 50% chance of failing.

Fiendslayer: The cleric gains resistance to fire and acid 10. In addition, any outsider that is struck by the cleric must make a Will save (DC equal to 10 + half the cleric's level + the cleric's Charisma modifier), or be unable to use any form of extradimensional travel, as per the dimensional anchor spell, for five minutes.

Undeath's Eternal Foe: The cleric becomes immune to paralysis, ability drain, and energy drain. In addition, the cleric is now a living weapon of disruption - any undead struck by the cleric must make a Will save (DC equal to 10 + half the cleric's level + the cleric's Charisma modifier) or be instantly destroyed.

Cleric Spell List:
0: Create Water, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Flare, Guidance, Know Direction, Light, Mending, Purify Food and Drink, Read Magic, Resistance, Virtue
1: Bless, Bless Water, Command, Cure Light Wounds, Detect Alignment, Divine Favor, Endure Elements, Magic Stone, Magic Weapon, Protection from Alignment, Remove Fear, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, Summon Monster I
2: Aid, Align Weapon, Augury, Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Consecrate, Cure Moderate Wounds, Delay Poison, Eagle's Splendor, Find Traps, Hold Person, Make Whole, Owl's Wisdom, Protection from Arrows, Remove Paralysis, Resist Energy, Lesser Restoration, Shield Other, Sound Burst, Status, Summon Monster II, Zone of Truth
3: Create Food and Water, Cure Serious Wounds, Daylight, Dispel Magic, Glyph of Warding, Good Hope, Magic Circle Against Alignment, Magic Vestment, Prayer, Protection from Energy, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse, Remove Disease, Searing Light, Summon Monster III, Water Walk

Cleric Aspects

The Churning Chaos
Benefit: The cleric becomes immune to charm and confusion effects, and gains a +4 bonus on saves against all other mind-affecting spells or abilities.
Bonus Spells: The cleric may select any Transmutation spell from the Sorcerer/Wizard list.
Example Deities: Echidna, Typhon, Ymir, Erythnul, Cyric, The Mockery

The Lord of the Underworld
Benefit: The cleric becomes immune to death spells, death effects, and negative energy effects.
Bonus Spells: The cleric may select any Necromancy spell from the Sorcerer/Wizard list.
Example Deities: Hades, Hel, Nerull, Kelemvor, The Keeper

The Mender
Benefit: Anytime the cleric heals hit point damage, he heals an additional amount equal to his Charisma modifier.
Bonus Spells: The cleric may select any spell on the Cleric list.
Example Deities: Apollo, Baldur, Ilmater, Lathander, Dol Arrah

The Sage
Benefit: The cleric may make any knowledge check as if he was trained in the skill, and adds his Wisdom modifier as a bonus to all knowledge checks.
Bonus Spells: The cleric may select any Divination or Abjuration spell from the Sorcerer/Wizard list.
Example Deities: Odin, Boccob, Oghma, Mystra, Aureon

The Smith
Benefit: The cleric gains a bonus on all Craft checks equal to his Wisdom modifier, and any Craft checks made by the cleric have their progress measured in days, not weeks, with no change to the crafted item's price.
Bonus Spells: The cleric may select any Conjuration (Creation) spell, or any spell with the [fire] or [earth] descriptors.
Example Deities: Hephaestus, Kossuth, Gond, Onatar

The Stormlord
Benefit: The cleric gains resistance to electricty and cold 5, and cannot be knocked down or blown away by strong winds.
Bonus Spells: The cleric may select any spell with the [air], [cold], or [electricity] descriptors.
Example Deities: Zeus, Thor, Auril, Talos, The Devourer

The Trickster
Benefit: The cleric selects two skills from the following list: Bluff, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, or Tumble. When using the two chosen skills, treat the cleric as if he had the maximum number of skill points possible for his level invested in them.
Bonus Spells: The cleric may select any Enchantment or Illusion spell from the Sorcerer/Wizard list.
Example Deities: Hermes, Loki, Olidammara, Mask, Olladra, The Traveler

The Warrior
Benefit: The cleric gains proficiency with heavy armor and martial weapons, and becomes immune to fear.
Bonus Spells: The cleric may select any spell on the Cleric list.
Example Deities: Tyr, Ares, Heironeous, Kord, Torm, Tempus, Dol Dorn, The Silver Flame

The Wild Lord
Benefit: The cleric may rebuke or command plant creatures and animals as an evil cleric rebukes undead. This is a supernatural ability and useable a number of times per day equal to 3 + the cleric's Charisma modifier.
Bonus Spells: The cleric may select any spell from the Druid list.
Example Deities: Artemis, Skadi, Obad-Hai, Sylvanus, Balinor

The Witch
Benefit: The cleric may select one metamagic feat, and gain its benefits. The cleric must still meet all prerequisites for the feat.
Bonus Spells: The cleric may select any Conjuration or Illusion (Shadow) spell from the Sorcerer/Wizard list.
Example Deities: Hecate, Lolth, Wee Jas, Shar, The Shadow



Archetypes


Theurge

Lesser Archetype Power: Once per day, when casting a summon monster spell, a theurge may extend the duration of the spell to 24 hours.
Moderate Archetype Power: Any creature summoned or commanded by a theurge gains a morale bonus equal to the theurge's Charisma modifier on armor class and Will saves.
Greater Archetype Power Once per day, a theurge may cast lesser planar ally as a spell-like ability, though the casting time is unchanged. The theurge may only call creatures who are within one step of his alignment. The theurge may make a Diplomacy check as part of the casting; if this check increases the called creature's attitude to helpful, it will offer the theurge a 50% discount on its standard fee, as long as the task requested is not against its nature.


Healer

Lesser Archetype Power: A healer may cast any spell of the Conjuration (Healing) subschool that normally has a range of Touch at a range of Close instead.
Moderate Archetype Power: When casting a spell that confers a beneficial bonus to an ally, a healer may also apply that spell to any number of allies within 30' of the original target. This ability may only be used a number of times per day equal to the healer's Charisma modifier.
Greater Archetype Power: Once per day, a healer may bring the recently deceased back to life. The target cannot have been dead for more than one round, and have left a relatively intact corpse. The healer must touch the target in order to raise them, which requires a full-round action. The target suffers no level loss from being raised, and is restored to a single hit point.


Oracle

Lesser Archetype Power: An oracle adds her Wisdom modifier as a bonus to her armor class and Reflex saves.
Moderate Archetype Power: Whenever an oracle makes a successful saving throw against an effect that deals half damage or takes partial effect on a successful saving throw, he instead completely negates the half damage or partial effect.
Greater Archetype Power: Once per day, an oracle may cast scrying as a spell-like ability, as per the cleric spell. The casting time remains one hour.

[Gnorman]

Running out of characters for the above post, so I'm expanding into this one. As you can see above, I've added the Cleric class for your perusal. Additionally, I've altered the Assassin archetype abilities somewhat - now, they have the ability to craft a limitless supply of poisons with Luck points, and also to bypass poison immunity, as per darklink_shadow's suggestions.

Did a bit of theorycrafting today, and I thought I'd showcase the fact that multiclassing seems a bit more interesting with the new classes. That may be just because I've added more abilities in general to the classes, but I rarely actually build characters using my own classes, so I thought it might be fun to try it out.

Here's an example build (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=605551) of an Assassin / Hexblade.

It can achieve some scary DCs with its poison, raising their DCs by up to +6 (+3 from the Assassin's Moderate ability, +2 from Venomous Strike, and +1 from the assassination property of its weapon), while giving out penalties to saves left and right with the warlock's curse and the aura of despair. If you want to be really evil, it can conjure up a supply of Black Lotus Venom with psionic minor creation. It can deliver poisons with touch spells through Poison Spell, of which it has quite a few. And it can do so using a Spectral Hand. It gets +3d6 sneak attack (and can increase it up to 5d6), rogue skills, and a pool of Luck it can use to craft poisons and force secondary saves. And it can use Summon Monster II to gain a variety of venomous familiars.

Maybe not very practical, but a fun build and would make a good villain.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Here's the last couple of Archetypes for the Spellslinger. The Magician Archetype (Totally not a rename because a "core" class had the same archetype name. Nope. Not at all.) is one that focuses more on the Spellslinger's, well, spells.

The Soldier Archetype puts some more emphasis on the Spellslinger's martial abilities, while the Traveller Archetype more closely blends the Spellslinger's Magical and Mundane abilities together.



Soldier

Bonus Spells:
1st: Grease, Obscuring Mist
2nd: Alter Self, Magic Vestment

Lesser Archetype Power: A Soldier can Threaten squares with Touch range spells. If an opponent the Soldier threatens Provokes an Attack of Opportunity, he can use a Touch Range spell range spell instead of a regular attack. (And since he can Threaten squares with spells, he can use them to Flank with.)

Moderate Archetype Power: A Soldier's attacks ignore a number of points of Damage Reduction (Except for DR/Epic and DR/-) equal to your Charisma modifier and Energy Resistance equal to twice that. This is a Supernatural ability.

Greater Archetype Power: The Soldier can make a Touch Attack with his (Panache) weapon. The weapon deals damage normally, except he does not get a bonus or penalty to Attack or Damage due to his Strength (You still get stuff from Charisma). If the Soldier can make multiple attacks in a round, he can do so with this ability. This is a Supernatural Ability.




Traveller

Bonus Spells:
1st: Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Pyrotechnics
2nd: Death Knell*, Prayer

*Loses the Evil descriptor. Because finishing off an opponent isn't evil.

Lesser Archetype Power: Whenever you miss on an attack roll with a weapon-like spell, the spell is not discharged and the spell slot is not expended. (Basically, if you didn't hit, you didn't cast.)

Moderate Archetype Power: As a Full-Round action, you can perform a mundane action (Such as an attack with a sword or bow, or something like a Trip manuver) that requires a Standard Action or lower and cast a Spell that has an (Unmodified) casting time of a Standard Action or lower. This ability does not inherently provoke an AoO, although the spell you cast might.

Greater Archetype Power: You add half your Caster level to the Attack roll of some weapons and effects. See Panache for details. This bonus is Untyped.




My 2p on something. The Feat Versatile Blaster. Either get rid of it, or make it part of the class. Because that's not a feat. It's one of those infamous, "class features that use a feat slot". There is literally NO reason you wouldn't take it. The others, however, are perfectly fine, Feat-wise, but expect EVERY Sorcerer and his Sorceress Mother to take Improved Elemental Blast.

(Some good ideas there on the Sorcerer. Metamagic reduction and spell slots only for Metamagic. Great minds think alike, eh. :smallwink:)

Also, something tells me the Pantheism ability is supposed to say "The cleric may now venerate two aspects at a single time."


(Also, now that your abandoning the Colour Mages, I can actually call the Spellslinger, the "Red Mage"! Woo Hoo!)

[Gnorman]

Here's the last couple of Archetypes for the Spellslinger. The Magician Archetype (Totally not a rename because a "core" class had the same archetype name. Nope. Not at all.) is one that focuses more on the Spellslinger's, well, spells.

The Soldier Archetype puts some more emphasis on the Spellslinger's martial abilities, while the Traveller Archetype more closely blends the Spellslinger's Magical and Mundane abilities together.



Soldier

Bonus Spells:
1st: Grease, Obscuring Mist
2nd: Alter Self, Magic Vestment

Lesser Archetype Power: A Soldier can Threaten squares with Touch range spells. If an opponent the Soldier threatens Provokes an Attack of Opportunity, he can use a Touch Range spell range spell instead of a regular attack. (And since he can Threaten squares with spells, he can use them to Flank with.)

Moderate Archetype Power: A Soldier's attacks ignore a number of points of Damage Reduction (Except for DR/Epic and DR/-) equal to your Charisma modifier and Energy Resistance equal to twice that. This is a Supernatural ability.

Greater Archetype Power: The Soldier can make a Touch Attack with his (Panache) weapon. The weapon deals damage normally, except he does not get a bonus or penalty to Attack or Damage due to his Strength (You still get stuff from Charisma). If the Soldier can make multiple attacks in a round, he can do so with this ability. This is a Supernatural Ability.




Traveller

Bonus Spells:
1st: Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Pyrotechnics
2nd: Death Knell*, Prayer

*Loses the Evil descriptor. Because finishing off an opponent isn't evil.

Lesser Archetype Power: Whenever you miss on an attack roll with a weapon-like spell, the spell is not discharged and the spell slot is not expended. (Basically, if you didn't hit, you didn't cast.)

Moderate Archetype Power: As a Full-Round action, you can perform a mundane action (Such as an attack with a sword or bow, or something like a Trip manuver) that requires a Standard Action or lower and cast a Spell that has an (Unmodified) casting time of a Standard Action or lower. This ability does not inherently provoke an AoO, although the spell you cast might.

Greater Archetype Power: You add half your Caster level to the Attack roll of some weapons and effects. See Panache for details. This bonus is Untyped.


I like the synergy of the Traveller, and Soldier looks like it'd be good at punching through tough enemies. The spell selection's a bit hit or miss for me; I feel like the Traveller should have some spells that enhanced his speed and mobility, while the Soldier should focus more on self-buffs (of which he admittedly has a couple).


My 2p on something. The Feat Versatile Blaster. Either get rid of it, or make it part of the class. Because that's not a feat. It's one of those infamous, "class features that use a feat slot". There is literally NO reason you wouldn't take it. The others, however, are perfectly fine, Feat-wise, but expect EVERY Sorcerer and his Sorceress Mother to take Improved Elemental Blast.

Hmm, okay, yeah, that's a fair point. I'll make it part of the original ability.


(Some good ideas there on the Sorcerer. Metamagic reduction and spell slots only for Metamagic. Great minds think alike, eh. :smallwink:)

I had actually planned those changes before you posted your Red Mage, for the record. So yes, yes they do. :smalltongue:


Also, something tells me the Pantheism ability is supposed to say "The cleric may now venerate two aspects at a single time."

Ah. Yes. Yes, indeed, it was supposed to, and now does. Thanks for pointing it out.


(Also, now that your abandoning the Colour Mages, I can actually call the Spellslinger, the "Red Mage"! Woo Hoo!)

Have at it! I've been thinking about abandoning the naming convention for some time, because there's occasionally some confusion about "are these FF- or MTG-themed classes?" and the answer is "not explicitly, but I can see why you would think that."

And on an unrelated note, expect the new and improved Wizard class to be posted sometime today, and perhaps even the Druid if I can drum up the free time.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Hm. Good point on the spells. I'll have a think about 'em and change them.


As a side note, what do you think of the Magician Archetype? (Located in the 2nd full Spellslinger post.)

[Gnorman]

Well, to be honest, the moderate archetype ability is still confusing, even after your clarifications. I like the greater ability, and it's similar to the Spellbook feature of my updated Wizard class - adds some much-welcome versatility and customization potential. But I'm not really sure what you're trying for here thematically - is the Magician the Reddest of the Red Mages? The most versatile spellcaster? The abilities seem to support that but they're a bit haphazard.

Side note, I won't be posting the Wizard class tonight; I got a bit sidetracked. But it will be up tomorrow.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Alright, thematically the idea is that each Archetype focuses on one aspect of the Red Mage's abilities:

Duskblade: Offensive Magic
Combat Medic: Healing Magic
Magician: Magical Ability
Soldier: Martial Ability
Traveller: Blending both Magic and Martial together

This allows you to make the Red Mage a little bit better at the thing you want him to be best at, or the thing the party's lacking. If the party already has a dedicated Blaster, but very little healing ability, then you can go Combat Medic, for instance.



Ok, so, the Moderate Magician ability. Normally, spells are recovered after an 8 hour rest. This ability lets you get "some" spells back, with a smaller rest.

Let's assume you're a 6th level Red Mage had no spells left and rested for three hours. At the end of the three hours, you recover 6 0 level spells, just as-is, and you can recover 3 1st level spells and you can split them between your Arcane and Divine spells as you see fit.

But, if we assume you had all your fist level spells before you decided to rest, you can instead recover 3 2nd level spells. If you had, say, 2 missing 1st level spells, then you would get those two spells back and one 2nd level spell.

But, if you do the "normal" 8 hour rest, you would get your spells back as standard.

[Gnorman]

Okay, I think I get how it works now. I still think it's a bit of a clunky ability, but at least I understand it. And those archetype breakdowns make sense, too.

Also, as promised, here's the Wizard. Upon further reflection, I think that the Beguiler is a better fit here than with the Rogue. So the Rogue archetype will be replaced by a Shadowdancer / Ninja archetype shortly.


The Wizard

HD: d6
Class Skills: Appraise, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (architecture and engineering), Knowledge (dungeoneering), Knowledge (local), Knowledge (the planes), Profession, Search, Spellcraft, Speak Language
Skill Points: 2 + Int per level (4x at 1st)




Saves

Spells Per Day
Spellbook Spells Per Day


Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special
0
1
2
3
1
2
3


1st
+0
+0
+0
+2
Archetype Power (Lesser), Spellcasting, Spellbook, Scribe Scroll
4
2
-
-
1
-
-


2nd
+1
+0
+0
+3
Dimension Hop
4
3
-
-
1
-
-


3rd
+1
+1
+1
+3
Archetype Power (Moderate)
4
4
2
-
1
1
-


4th
+2
+1
+1
+4
Broadened Horizons
4
4
3
-
2
1
-


5th
+2
+1
+1
+4
Bonus Feat
4
4
4
2
2
1
1


6th
+3
+2
+2
+5
Archetype Power (Greater), Arcane Pinnacle
4
4
4
3
2
2
1



Proficiencies: The wizard is proficient with light armor and simple weapons. He does not suffer from arcane failure while in light armor.

Archetype Power: At 1st level, the wizard chooses an archetype from the following list, each of which confers a different set of powers on the wizard. Once made, the choice is final.

Spellcasting: The wizard casts arcane spells from a specialized list, which is included below. A wizard need not prepare spells ahead of time - he may spontaneously cast any spell on his list from the appropriate slot. He still requires eight hours of rest to refresh his spells. His sole casting stat is Intelligence, which dictates both the DC of his spells and his bonus spells. To cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to 10 + the level of spell in question.

Spellbook: In addition to his natural, spontaneous casting, the wizard keeps a spellbook, which he can use to learn and prepare a small number of spells as a standard 3.5 wizard prepares spells. His daily allotment for these spells is given in the class table, and he receives no bonus spellbook spells for having a high Intelligence score. He also may only learn spells of a level he is currently capable of casting, and only spells on the Sorcerer/Wizard list. He also may not keep an unlimited number of spells in his spellbook - he is limited to a maximum number of spells per spell level equal to his Intelligence modifier. Thus, a 3rd-level wizard with an Intelligence of 18 could keep four 1st-level spells, and four 2nd-level spells, in his spellbook. If he raised his Intelligence to 20, he could now keep five spells of each level in his book. Spells cast from the wizard's spellbook have their DCs determined by the wizard's Intelligence modifier. To cast a spell from his spellbook, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to 10 + the level of the spell in question.

Initially, a wizard may only add spells from the Enchantment, Divination, and Illusion schools to his spellbook. Later abilities increase the variety of spells that he can learn.

Scribe Scroll: The wizard gains Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat.

Dimension Hop: Once per round, as an immediate action, the wizard may teleport himself up to 10' in any direction that he has line of sight to. He may bring along objects as long as their combined weight does not exceed his maximum load, but may not bring along any other creatures. Treat this as a spell-like ability that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The wizard may use this ability a number of times per day equal to his class level.

Broadened Horizons: The wizard may now add spells from a wider variety of spell schools to his spell book. The wizard chooses one spell school other than Enchantment, Illusion, or Divination. He may now add spells from that school on the sorcerer/wizard list to his spellbook. If the wizard did not choose Conjuration or Transmutation, he may choose one additional school other than Conjuration and Transmutation, and add spells of that school to his spellbook as well.

Bonus Feat: The wizard gains a bonus feat, which must either be a metamagic feat or an item creation feat. The wizard must still meet all prerequisites for the feat in question.

Arcane Pinnacle: The wizard has reached the pinnacle of his arcane skills. The wizard selects one of the spell schools listed below. Once per day, the wizard may cast either spell listed under the appropriate entry as a spell-like ability with a caster level equal to his class level. However, the casting time is unchanged - Scrying, for example, would still require an hour to cast.

Divination: Arcane Eye or Scrying

Enchantment: Charm Monster or Confusion

Illusion: Greater Invisibility or Shadow Conjuration

Wizard Spell List:
0: Arcane Mark, Dancing Lights, Daze, Detect Magic, Flare, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Prestidigitation, Read Magic
1: Charm Person, Color Spray, Comprehend Languages, Detect Secret Doors, Disguise Self, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Hypnotism, Identify, Obscuring Mist, Silent Image, Sleep, Unseen Servant, Ventriloquism
2: Blur, Daze Monster, Detect Thoughts, Enthrall, Fog Cloud, Fox's Cunning, Gust of Wind, Hideous Laughter, Hypnotic Pattern, Invisibility, Knock, Locate Object, Minor Image, Mirror Image, Misdirection, Obscure Object, See Invisibility, Silence, Touch of Idiocy, Whispering Wind
3: Arcane Sight, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Deep Slumber, Dispel Magic, Displacement, Gaseous Form, Glibness, Hold Person, Invisibility Sphere, Major Image, Nondetection, Suggestion, Tongues, Wind Wall, Zone of Silence


Archetypes

Archivist

Lesser Archetype Power: The archivist may now add spells from the cleric list to his spellbook, though he still restricted to spells from his approved schools. However, when using his spellbook to cast a spell normally found on a divine spellcasting list, he uses his Wisdom modifier instead of his Intelligence modifier to determine the DC of the spell.
Moderate Archetype Power: The archivist may now add spells from the druid list to his spellbook. He is still restricted to spells from his approved schools, and uses his Wisdom modifier, just as with cleric spells.
Greater Archetype Power: The archivist may pick one additional spell school and add spells to his spellbook from that school, from either the cleric, druid, or sorcerer/wizard list.


Artificer

Lesser Archetype Power: An artificer adds Use Magic Device to his list of class skills, and may add his Intelligence modifier instead of his Charisma modifier to Use Magic Device attempts.
Moderate Archetype Power: An artificer may apply any metamagic feat he knows to a spell trigger item. Using this ability expends a number of additional charges equal to the number of effective spell levels the metamagic feat would add to the spell. In addition, an artificer gains Brew Potion and Craft Wondrous Item as bonus feats.
Greater Archetype Power:For the purposes of meeting prerequisites for item creation, an artificer's effective caster level equals his normal caster level +2. In addition, an artificer gains Craft Magic Arms & Armor and Craft Wand as bonus feats.


Beguiler

Lesser Archetype Power: A beguiler adds Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Sleight of Hand, and Tumble to his list of class skills, and gains four additional skill points per level (sixteen at first level). He also gains Trapfinding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#trapfinding), as per the rogue ability.
Moderate Archetype Power: Whenever a beguiler casts a spell against an opponent that would be denied its Dexterity bonus to armor class, he gains a +1 bonus to the spell's save DC, and a +2 on checks to overcome the opponent's spell resistance, if any.
Greater Archetype Power A beguiler may, when casting a mind-affecting spell, overcome the target's immunity to mind-affecting spells and effects, albeit at a -4 penalty to the DC of the spell. The beguiler may use this ability a number of times per day equal to his Intelligence modifier.

[Yael]

Are the core archetypes being filled? Like the Brawler's Cenobite Greater Power, or the Sentinel's Bastion and Landsknetch Moderate and Greater Powers respectively? I'm highly interested in knowing if they are OnO

[Gnorman]

Are the core archetypes being filled? Like the Brawler's Cenobite Greater Power, or the Sentinel's Bastion and Landsknetch Moderate and Greater Powers respectively? I'm highly interested in knowing if they are OnO

Although I have mostly moved on to planning for the third iteration of this project, I do plan on completing the current holes, yes.

[Gnorman]

Quick project update!

I'm working on new versions of the remaining classes, specifically the Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Engineer, Fighter, Monk, Ranger, Paladin, and the Psion.

I have yet to decide if I will also include the following classes: the Blackguard, the Spellsword, the Marshal, the Empath, and the Sage.

I do also plan, as previously mentioned, on sitting down and filling in the gaps in the existing classes, so that Version 2 can at least be preserved as a completed system for those of you that prefer it.

Also, real life sucks.