(Pathfinder) Alchemist Discussion: Multiclassing

[Sarone]

I am currently working on an Alchemist Guide that expands on Ogre's Alchemist Guide (http://pathfinder.ogrehut.com/2010/07/alchemist-build-guide/) and would like to know if any one that has played or planned to play an Alchemist to consider what classes to multiclassing into (the unspoken rule is don't, because you will weaken yourself in the long term, but by the same token it's not out of question).

PLEASE NOTE: This is dealing only with classes in the Pathfinder setting and only those from the Core Rule Book, Advanced Player's Guide, Ultimate Magoc, and Ultimate Combat. Any other classes from non-Pathfinder material is subject to GM approval and as such will not be covered here (though GM might not allow the APG, UM, or UC, that is at their discretion. These books are considered sanctioned by Paizo for most Pathfinder games, unless they state otherwise).

I figure to start with some that have worthwhile strengths:

Rogue: Level 1, 2, or 4. For one rogue level, you gain +4 (or +3 if you burn your favored class option) skill points as well as several additional class skills (depending on setting you can and will be using climb, swim, and acrobatics, and stealth is always a good skill to get for class), 1d6 sneak (though it might not stack with bombs, it goes with all other weapons), five additional weapon proficeincies, and trapfinding (which will allow you a reason to keep disable and perception maxed and can work out if there's no other rogues or have rogues with out trapfinding). Level 2 nets you an additional 8+INT skill points, evasion, and a rogue talent in exchange for 1d6 extra bomb damage (which can get you some additional damage boosts). The reason for four levels is that is rounds out the block of levels, nets you trap sense, an additional talent, uncanny dodge, boost your sneak attack to 2d6, and (when added together) 32 skill points + (INT Mod x 4) before accounting for any attribute increases.

Barbarian: Let's face it, Bruce probably took this after finding out he's going to be the Hulk. Between that and Master Chymist, it does have several attractive abilities. There's a few physical skills that are worth while depending on the campaign, but the full BAB, fast movement, rage and rage powers, d12 hit dice, and having all martial weapons.

So what do you all think?

[grarrrg]

Rogue: For one rogue level, you gain +2 ... skill points as well as several additional class skills

Rogues have 8 skills/level. Alchemists only have 4 skills/level. That is a +4 difference (or +3 if you're mainly using your Alchemist Favored option for Skills, but who does THAT?).

Also, it is possible through archetypes for an Alchemist to gain either Trapfinding, or Sneak Attack. Although in the case of taking Crypt Breaker for Trapfinding, you can then take Rogue and trade it away for a Rogue archetype.

Also worth mentioning is the Arcane Bomber (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo---wizard-archetypes/arcane-bomber) Wizard, along with the Master Chymist PrC, this is the ONLY class that stacks for Bombs.

[Psyren]

If you're going to do a new Alchemist handbook, be sure to check out the other stuff they get from the new Advanced Races Guide splat (e.g. Goblin Alchemists.)

Note also that you may not in fact get the 1d6 sneak attack from Rogue if you are a Vivisectionist. Instead, your Rogue levels stack on top of your Alchemist levels and your SA is calculated as though you were a rogue of the combined level. (i.e. if you were a Vivisectionist 5 and you picked up a Rogue level for Viv 5/Rogue 1, you would not get any sneak attack from that rogue level because you already got one at Viv 5. You would however get more sneak attack with your next level whether it was Rogue again or Vivisectionist.)

Finally, Barbarian combines decently with Hyde, but in Pathfinder you always want to have a specific goal in mind when you multiclass because doing so is almost always weaker than staying in your base class.

[Reverent-One]

Note also that you may not in fact get the 1d6 sneak attack from Rogue if you are a Vivisectionist. Instead, your Rogue levels stack on top of your Alchemist levels and your SA is calculated as though you were a rogue of the combined level. (i.e. if you were a Vivisectionist 5 and you picked up a Rogue level for Viv 5/Rogue 1, you would not get any sneak attack from that rogue level because you already got one at Viv 5. You would however get more sneak attack with your next level whether it was Rogue again or Vivisectionist.)

Really? I've never heard it works like that before.

[Sarone]

Rogues have 8 skills/level. Alchemists only have 4 skills/level. That is a +4 difference (or +3 if you're mainly using your Alchemist Favored option for Skills, but who does THAT?).

Also, it is possible through archetypes for an Alchemist to gain either Trapfinding, or Sneak Attack. Although in the case of taking Crypt Breaker for Trapfinding, you can then take Rogue and trade it away for a Rogue archetype.

Also worth mentioning is the Arcane Bomber (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo---wizard-archetypes/arcane-bomber) Wizard, along with the Master Chymist PrC, this is the ONLY class that stacks for Bombs.

Ah, thanks for pointing that out. Also, Archetypes wil be covered in a different discussion. For now it's just going over the various classes and their optiong as well. Also it'll be covering the difference for the variations that someone might consider.



If you're going to do a new Alchemist handbook, be sure to check out the other stuff they get from the new Advanced Races Guide splat (e.g. Goblin Alchemists.)

Note also that you may not in fact get the 1d6 sneak attack from Rogue if you are a Vivisectionist. Instead, your Rogue levels stack on top of your Alchemist levels and your SA is calculated as though you were a rogue of the combined level. (i.e. if you were a Vivisectionist 5 and you picked up a Rogue level for Viv 5/Rogue 1, you would not get any sneak attack from that rogue level because you already got one at Viv 5. You would however get more sneak attack with your next level whether it was Rogue again or Vivisectionist.)

Finally, Barbarian combines decently with Hyde, but in Pathfinder you always want to have a specific goal in mind when you multiclass because doing so is almost always weaker than staying in your base class.

Always. People have to plan for what they want to do. At the same time, the situation is normally fluid in a campaig and unless you have played a character before, you might not know what you're really after.


Really? I've never heard it works like that before.

It's called stacking. If a class provides a feature, and you do to another class that provides the same feature, it stacks for abilities and such.

[Reverent-One]

*re-reads vivisectionist*

Never mind, I had forgotten the specific wording of the vivisectionist ability. It does explicitly say it works that way.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Good! I'd especially like to see more Hyde/Vivisectionist stuff covered!

IMO, you're best off sticking to Alchemist in the long run. This includes the Master Chymist PrC which...I really don't like. And RAW will not advance sneak attack even though it blatantly should.

Dips to consider (I'm mentioning most of these w/ Viv. in mind):

Oracle 1: Water Sight revelation + obscuring mist as a class spell = only easy way in PF to reliably get full attack ranged sneak attacks. Pick up wings to hover in the air out of harm's way completely. Use smoke stick as a power component so fire effects can't burn the mist away. Get sniper goggles so enemies can't just run farther than 30 ft away to avoid megadeath (not that foes moving away from a guy who has nothing but ranged combat feats is a bad thing anyway...).

Ranger 1: No loss of BAB, pick up a bunch of useful class skills (go Beastmaster to get Acrobatics, too), and free trapfinding via Trapper archetype, if you want to obsolete the only remaining thing Rogue had going for himself.

Barbarian 1: Wild Rager w/ an abysmal cha score means pitifully low will save DCs for the confusion effect, but you can always choose to fail a save, giving you excellent control over when you use it, and greatly padding out your rage rounds per day (since rounds confused don't eat into the daily limit, and if the guy you want dead attacked you last round anyway, confused doesn't hurt you much at all). Alternatively, the hurling archetype might be good for bomber alchemists, I guess...

Fighter 1: Cad archetype. It uber sucks past level 1, but for a brief dip, you get no BAB loss and some nice class skills, as with ranger. Still pretty mediocre. Alternatively, Unarmed Fighter 1 to greatly help qualify for Crane Wing. You're not holding weapons in those clawed hands anyway, may as well massively buff your defenses. Even if you are, you can sprout spare arms as a class feature.

Monk 1-2: Master of Many Styles. As above, for crane wing. Fighter dip is the better way to go, though MoMS + Sohei will at least give you decent proficiencies for your trouble.

Rogue 2: If your DM doesn't think possessing any of the specific talents Viv. allows you to get qualifies you for Extra Talent feat, I guess you'd have to do rogue 2. Protip: Rogue talents suck, don't do this!

[Sarone]

Good! I'd especially like to see more Hyde/Vivisectionist stuff covered!


IMO, you're best off sticking to Alchemist in the long run. This includes the Master Chymist PrC which...I really don't like. And RAW will not advance sneak attack even though it blatantly should.

Dips to consider (I'm mentioning most of these w/ Viv. in mind):

Oracle 1: Water Sight revelation + obscuring mist as a class spell = only easy way in PF to reliably get full attack ranged sneak attacks. Pick up wings to hover in the air out of harm's way completely. Use smoke stick as a power component so fire effects can't burn the mist away. Get sniper goggles so enemies can't just run farther than 30 ft away to avoid megadeath (not that foes moving away from a guy who has nothing but ranged combat feats is a bad thing anyway...).


Ranger 1: No loss of BAB, pick up a bunch of useful class skills (go Beastmaster to get Acrobatics, too), and free trapfinding via Trapper archetype, if you want to obsolete the only remaining thing Rogue had going for himself.


Barbarian 1: Wild Rager w/ an abysmal cha score means pitifully low will saves for the confusion effect, but you can always choose to fail a save, giving you excellent control over when you use it, and greatly padding out your rage rounds per day (since rounds confused don't eat into the daily limit, and if the guy you want dead attacked you last round anyway, confused doesn't hurt you much at all). Alternatively, the hurling archetype might be good for bomber alchemists, I guess...


Fighter 1: Cad archetype. It uber sucks past level 1, but for a brief dip, you get no BAB loss and some nice class skills, as with ranger. Still pretty mediocre. Alternatively, Unarmed Fighter 1 to greatly help qualify for Crane Wing. You're not holding weapons in those clawed hands anyway, may as well massively buff your defenses. Even if you are, you can sprout spare arms as a class feature.


Monk 1-2: Master of Many Styles. As above, for crane wing. Fighter dip is the better way to go, though MoMS + Sohei will at least give you decent proficiencies for your trouble.


Rogue 2: If your DM doesn't think possessing any of the specific talents Viv. allows you to get qualifies you for Extra Talent feat, I guess you'd have to do rogue 2. Protip: Rogue talents suck, don't do this!

For Rogue talents, consider that Combat Trick gives you a free Combat Feat. Just saying.

[Larpus]

Nice to see more people interested in the class.

I was making an Alchemist guide of my own, just like you, to expand on ogre's; however, I started to lack time to both make the guide itself as well as actually play at all, so I started to struggle, especially with extracts, as I had no actual knowledge with the higher level ones.

Anyway, personally, multiclassing is bad for the Alchemist, bomber loses bomb damage and bombs per day, which is really bad; Vivisectionist is somewhat ok in that regard, however there's also the loss of spellcasting, so multiclass is a no-go.

Dipping is ok though, as others suggested, there are many interesting things for Alchemists, but ironically, I've found that Barbarian isn't all that great as the rounds of Rage will be very few, to the point of being almost useless.

It does work and look interesting the other way around however (Barbarian heavy with couple Alchemist dips), and for that it does what says on the tin: Barbarian with +4 Str, some sneak attack and spellcasting.

I agree that Master Chymist is not a great designed class, the only true use I see of it is to triple your amount of mutagen (without needing a new dose) in case you traded Persistent Mutagen away (such as being a Beastmorpher). Most DMs do allow it to advance sneak attack though, given the evidence that SA scales at the same speed as bombs and the PrC was created before the Vivisectionist and would be likely to have the clause if it were the other way around.

And, as I usually say around here on the forum, for me Rogue 2/Alchemist X is the best Rogue build; but I've realized that Trapfinding isn't that great due to ridiculously crazy DCs for magical traps (and the fact that by then, the party most probably has some other way to bypass them).

[StreamOfTheSky]

For Rogue talents, consider that Combat Trick gives you a free Combat Feat. Just saying.

Yes...

You dipped 2 levels into a class at the expense of your mutagen, extract, and discovery availability progressions to...get a bonus feat. Or even more hilarious, to have the option of spending a feat on Extra Rogue Talent to pick up a bonus feat!

While there are a few exceptions and some talents can be turned into gold with enough twinking (terrain mastery talent combined w/ Horizon Walker being the most stark example of taking an otherwise cruddy talent and making it AMAZING), for the most part, all the best Rogue talents are the ones that give you a bonus feat. Because feats are better than the other talents. But dipping rogue to be able to spend feat s to gain bonus feats is self-defeating. And dipping it to gain a bonus feat every 2nd level (until you run out of good bonus feat options - Combat Trick, Ninja Trick (Combat Trick) -- and yes that works by RAW, Weapon Training, Finesse Rogue, etc...) is patently worse than dipping fighter and getting more feats, proficiencies, and full BAB. Or other front-loaded feat granting archetypes, like Divine Hunter Paladin or Zen Archer Monk, if you wanted archery feats, for example.

You'd dip rogue for good talents other than feat-granting ones. But such things basically don't exist, so the dip is largely pointless.
And all of this is assuming you can't just pick up one of the Viv. talent options and claim qualificationfor Extra Talent through that, which strict RAW you probably cannot, but it'd be easy to see some DMs allowing it.

[Feralventas]

Something I hadn't seen and felt was worth mention.

Barbarian1, +4 Morale bonus to Strength.
Ragechemist1, +6 Alchemical bonus to Strength.

Presuming strength 18 base and toss Half-Orc on it for +2 racial, you can have 30 Strength at level 2 with no feat or GP investment for at least a few rounds of combat. That's +10 to hit, At Least +5 to damage if you off-hand a weapon for some reason, and potentially +15 with a mundane, two-hand weapon.

In the mean time, you also have a D8 and D12 HD, +1 base BAB, a moderate amount of skill points and one level of Alchemist 'casting. At 5th level when you get your 2nd level extracts, you can toss Bull's Strength on for an additional +4 (enhancement).

Even if you decide not to put everything in Strength, just jumping from a 10 to a 20 is a sizable difference and allows you to invest in Int to make the chemical rage last longer, constitution for the normal rage and extra HP, or Dex for more AC despite the -2 for Rage.

[Bhaakon]

Something I hadn't seen and felt was worth mention.

Barbarian1, +4 Morale bonus to Strength.
Ragechemist1, +6 Alchemical bonus to Strength.

Presuming strength 18 base and toss Half-Orc on it for +2 racial, you can have 30 Strength at level 2 with no feat or GP investment for at least a few rounds of combat. That's +10 to hit, At Least +5 to damage if you off-hand a weapon for some reason, and potentially +15 with a mundane, two-hand weapon.


I've been waiting for a particularly silly game to use that build in, since it blatantly shatters the "no-cheese" gentlemen's agreement I usually play under.

Also remember that feral mutagen and lesser fiend totem will give that character four primary natural attacks (claw/claw/bite/gore) at level 4 to go along with his 31 stength.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Something I hadn't seen and felt was worth mention.

Barbarian1, +4 Morale bonus to Strength.
Ragechemist1, +6 Alchemical bonus to Strength.

Presuming strength 18 base and toss Half-Orc on it for +2 racial, you can have 30 Strength at level 2 with no feat or GP investment for at least a few rounds of combat. That's +10 to hit, At Least +5 to damage if you off-hand a weapon for some reason, and potentially +15 with a mundane, two-hand weapon.

In the mean time, you also have a D8 and D12 HD, +1 base BAB, a moderate amount of skill points and one level of Alchemist 'casting. At 5th level when you get your 2nd level extracts, you can toss Bull's Strength on for an additional +4 (enhancement).

Even if you decide not to put everything in Strength, just jumping from a 10 to a 20 is a sizable difference and allows you to invest in Int to make the chemical rage last longer, constitution for the normal rage and extra HP, or Dex for more AC despite the -2 for Rage.

**********************Please, do not play a Comastose Chemist, ever.

The extra +2 strength is not worth going comatose for 1 hour + remaining mutagen duration after every 5-7 rounds of combat (on average).

This has been a public service announcement. Again, do not play a Comatose Chemist.**********************

[Sarone]

I've been waiting for a particularly silly game to use that build in, since it blatantly shatters the "no-cheese" gentlemen's agreement I usually play under.

Also remember that feral mutagen and lesser fiend totem will give that character four primary natural attacks (claw/claw/bite/gore) at level 4 to go along with his 31 stength.

Not quite cheese, but definetely a min maxer type deal. I can see it being a Bruce Banner type character that morphs into The Hulk. Considering that level 12 Alchemists can get the Greater Mutagen, which you can put the main in Strength and the secondary into Constitution and you'll get a nice, iconic Hulk.

Unfortunately, it also makes it likely you wont see this outside of epic, in which case you have to contend with those problems.

[Larpus]

**********************Please, do not play a Comastose Chemist, ever.

The extra +2 strength is not worth going comatose for 1 hour + remaining mutagen duration after every 5-7 rounds of combat (on average).

This has been a public service announcement. Again, do not play a Comatose Chemist.**********************
I agree.

The save you gotta make is Will, which is weak for the Alchemist, not to mention that you probably don't have 18 Wis, so even at higher levels when your bonus is enough that you succeed most of the time, all it takes is a single failed save to start a downhill spiral of Int and Will suckage that will last for a long time.

Meaning that you'll be gradually losing your ability to speak as the battle rages (hah!) and/or you'll be a prime candidate for mind control effects.

[Bhaakon]

Not quite cheese, but definetely a min maxer type deal.

4 attacks at full BAB with a +10 Str modifier at level 4? That's about as cheesey as a melee character can get in pathfinder.


I can see it being a Bruce Banner type character that morphs into The Hulk. Considering that level 12 Alchemists can get the Greater Mutagen, which you can put the main in Strength and the secondary into Constitution and you'll get a nice, iconic Hulk.

I always figured Barb 2, beastmorph 10 (for pounce) and Master Chymist the rest of the way.

[Khosan]

Barbarian1, +4 Morale bonus to Strength.
Ragechemist1, +6 Alchemical bonus to Strength.

Don't forget Enlarge Person. A +2 Size bonus to Strength in addition to the increased damage die. It's on the Alchemist list and, honestly, it'd be silly not to pick it up for this.

At CL 3, taking a second level in Alchemist, you can get Feral Mutagen and Power Attack, which is silly for melee damage. You now have 2 claws and a bite at +11 to hit each for 1d8+13 per claw or 2d6+13 with the bite. And you have reach.

Granted, I wouldn't really recommend Ragechemist too heavily. The difference isn't that big (lose +1 to hit and damage) and the penalty can really sneak up on you. Also, outside of that window where you have everything running at once, you really don't have that much going for you.

[Aemoh87]

I love my rage chemist! Best pathfinder character I have ever played, just because I have never thought harder about using my abilities. I really tried to only use it when I had too which made the roleplay work so well. I didn't just not want to be a hulk in fluff, but on paper it was terrifying for me as a player too. Also it created a dependance on the party to take care of me when I was down and out, also secretly fear me for what could happen if a spellcaster took control of me. AMAZINGLY FUN!

I was useful in other situations as well, a small investment made me a decent bomber and I chose my feats and my spells wisely so I could fit multiple roles (raged/unraged).

So if your okay with having a character carrying a giant double edge sword, it's a fun time!

Also Renewed Vitality (Rage Power) should be mentioned for Barbarians who dip rage chemist as it allows them to ignore the penalties until their rage ends. Alchemist is a hard class to multiclass with as it usually meas throwing bombs and extracts under the bus.

[Feralventas]

**********************Please, do not play a Comastose Chemist, ever.

The extra +2 strength is not worth going comatose for 1 hour + remaining mutagen duration after every 5-7 rounds of combat (on average).

This has been a public service announcement. Again, do not play a Comatose Chemist.**********************

That made my day, thank you.

Though I should think that it'd be a fair trade for exploding into a fury of magical roid-rage and wrecking whatever was in the party's way. Perhaps just go mostly Alchemist and then us the Rage/Mutagen combo as a last resort or other Oh Crap button responses.

[grarrrg]

Also remember that feral mutagen and lesser fiend totem will give that character four primary natural attacks (claw/claw/bite/gore) at level 4 to go along with his 31 stength.


4 attacks at full BAB with a +10 Str modifier at level 4? That's about as cheesey as a melee character can get in pathfinder.
I always figured Barb 2, beastmorph 10 (for pounce) and Master Chymist the rest of the way.

Thinking a little small, aren't we gentlemen?

White-Haired (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/archetypes/paizo---witch-archetypes/white-haired-witch) Witch 1, give a Hair Primary natural attack at 1d4+INT damage

Scout (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/scout) Rogue 4, +2d6 Sneak, and whenever we CHARGE the target is Flat-Footed for Sneak Attack damage.

Barbarian 2 (or more) for Fiend Totem, Lesser (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/fiend-totem-lesser-su) to gain a Gore Attack.

Beastmorph Vivisectionist Alchemist 10, 5d6 Sneak Attack, w/Feral Mutagen for Clawx2 and a Bite. Also gain "beast traits" while Mutated, so... POUNCE!

On a charge we get to Claw+Claw+Bite+Gore+Hair with EVERY attack gaining +7d6 (or more) damage!

BUT WAIT! THERE'S MORE! if we want we can replace one of the Claw attacks with a Weapon and get Iteratives too! :smallbiggrin:



For a more Low Level viable build:
Pick a race with a Bite attack.
Take 2 levels of Ranger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger) taking Aspect of the Beast (Natural Weapon style) to gain 2 Claw attacks.
1 level of White-Haired Witch for the Hair attack.

You are now 3rd level, 2 Bab, and have FOUR Natural attacks.
Then take levels in your choice of Alchemist/Barbarian and go to town.

[StreamOfTheSky]

If you want a lot of attacks and pounce, you'd be better off just going Synthesist Summoner. Be a half-elf for the bonus evo points (and even more w/ wild caller archetype) and use Ancestral Arms on some good martial or exotic weapon if you want to mix manufactured and natural weapon attacks. You'll have pounce at level 1.

Multiclass into viv. alchemist for access to the vestigial arms discovery for yet more arms and the sneak attack.

[panaikhan]

My current gnome alchemist has 3 levels of Musket Master :)
DM ruled the ammunition infusion works for longarms too.

[Sarone]

If you want a lot of attacks and pounce, you'd be better off just going Synthesist Summoner. Be a half-elf for the bonus evo points (and even more w/ wild caller archetype) and use Ancestral Arms on some good martial or exotic weapon if you want to mix manufactured and natural weapon attacks. You'll have pounce at level 1.

Multiclass into viv. alchemist for access to the vestigial arms discovery for yet more arms and the sneak attack.

You need to take two weapon fighting for that and be willing to take four levels of it.

Though it doesn't say so, I figure your costs for armor and clothing will go up due to the nature of your physiology unless you like wearing heavy coats all the time.

[Theodoxus]

If this is threadmancy, I humbly apologize.

I'm playing an alchemist (Chirurgeon/Crypt Breaker) starting at 1st level in a Carrion Crown game. Due to excellent rolling, I have the following stats:

Str: 11, Dex: 19, Con: 12, Int: 20, Wis:18, Chr: 8 - Elf.

I'm thinking of going to Zen Archer for a two level dip at 3rd & 4th (this allows me to grab the Infusion discovery to help give out party buffs).

The ZA dip will net me four feats, most of which will help my bombs. However, if I were to go to 3rd level, and pick up Point Blank Master for Bombs instead of a bow - the Weapon Focus specifies a bow, along with the Weapon Spec at 6th, but PBM doesn't mention a specific weapon... For that matter, if I were to pick up Weapon Focus Bomb as a feat, could I get Weapon Spec Bomb as well (provided I went 6th monk?)

Not sure 6/14 ZA/Alchy is optimal, but for sure 2/18 is pretty sexy and 3/17 isn't horrible.

Or am I off my rocker and should just stick with Alchemist 20?

[Sarone]

From my understanding, Point Blank Mastery goes only for the weapon you have Weapon Specialization with, which requires Fighter Levels or a substitute (Ranger 6 or Zen Archer).

At least that's my interpretation.

[jmelesky]

From my understanding, Point Blank Mastery goes only for the weapon you have Weapon Specialization with, which requires Fighter Levels or a substitute (Ranger 6 or Zen Archer).

At least that's my interpretation.

That's correct. Read it backwards and it becomes clear:

Benefit: Choose one type of ranged weapon. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when firing the selected weapon while threatened.

Prerequisite: Weapon Specialization with selected ranged weapon.

That is, the "selected ranged weapon" you need WS in is the one you select as getting Pont Blank Mastery in.