Presistent spell? and Vigor

[shaga]

Ok so I know you can not use persistent spell on a lesser Vigor, because it has a range of touch and not fixed or personal, but what about Mass lesser vigor? It has a range of 20 ft., so is that a fixed range? and how can it have 20 ft. range but then "One creature/two levels, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart" ?

[Duke of URL]

Without getting into the Persist portion of the question, the math actually works, as confusing at it may seem.

A 20' range from you generates a circle 40' in diameter. The targets line specifies a maximum distance of 30' between any two subjects of the spell, which means all legal subjects must be within a 30' diameter circle that is placed somewhere inside the 40' diameter range.

[Urpriest]

20ft is precisely the sort of thing that counts as fixed range, since it doesn't scale with level or reach.

[Ranting Fool]

Ok so I know you can not use persistent spell on a lesser Vigor...


So you'd just gain Fast Healing 1.... mmm never thought of that :smallbiggrin:

[shaga]

Without getting into the Persist portion of the question, the math actually works, as confusing at it may seem.

A 20' range from you generates a circle 40' in diameter. The targets line specifies a maximum distance of 30' between any two subjects of the spell, which means all legal subjects must be within a 30' diameter circle that is placed somewhere inside the 40' diameter range.

I am a bit confused but does that mean that the actual range of the spell differs, depending on where the two creatures stand?

[Boci]

I am a bit confused but does that mean that the actual range of the spell differs, depending on where the two creatures stand?

No, where creatures stand determines how many are affected. The range remains the same.

Also, I have never had an answer to this question: Is increased reach means a touch spell isn't "fixed", how can any spell be fixed since you can always manipulate the range (metamagic rod of extension, archmage's arcane reach)?

[sonofzeal]

It just means that if you heal Bob 20' to your left, you can't also heal Sam 20' to your right. But you can heal a whole bunch of people if they all cluster on your left side.

[shaga]

20ft is precisely the sort of thing that counts as fixed range, since it doesn't scale with level or reach.

It seems weird to me that you can not use persistent for lesser vigor but you can for mass lesser vigor. In spell compendium it even says "This spell functions like lesser vigor, except that it affects multiple creatures." on the mass lesser vigor description.

[Boci]

It seems weird to me that you can not use persistent for lesser vigor but you can for mass lesser vigor. In spell compendium it even says "This spell functions like lesser vigor, except that it affects multiple creatures." on the mass lesser vigor description.

Function, whilst never defined, generally isn't assumed to stretch to a list of metamagic applicable to the spell.

[shaga]

It just means that if you heal Bob 20' to your left, you can't also heal Sam 20' to your right. But you can heal a whole bunch of people if they all cluster on your left side.

That means that the area of the spell can change, depending of what creatures you are trying to include in the spell. As I understand it a fixed range means that in every casting the area of effect is the save. For example detect magic always has 60 ft. cone. But for this spell, even though the maximum range is the same the actual area you can reach changes.

[Boci]

That means that the area of the spell can change, depending of what creatures you are trying to include in the spell. As I understand it a fixed range means that in every casting the area of effect is the save. For example detect magic always has 60 ft. cone. But for this spell, even though the maximum range is the same the actual area you can reach changes.

The area of a spell can never exceed the spell's range.

[Urpriest]

That means that the area of the spell can change, depending of what creatures you are trying to include in the spell. As I understand it a fixed range means that in every casting the area of effect is the save. For example detect magic always has 60 ft. cone. But for this spell, even though the maximum range is the same the actual area you can reach changes.

Fixed range means the range is always the same. It has no interaction with the area. The range is always the same: if there's a guy 20ft in front of you, you can always heal him, you just might not be able to heal another guy 20ft in back if you choose to do so. This is no different from if the spell specified one target in 20ft, and you tried to use it on two. The other target is not "out of range", it's just an ineligible target.

It's not weird that you can persist mass lesser vigor but not lesser vigor. Their ranges are different, and that's a criterion of the feat. That's precisely how you expect it to work.

[shaga]

Ok then. I am not 100% convinced but the majority seems to think that you can use persistent on mass lesser vigor so I will allow it in our game as well. Thanks for your answers.

[Duke of URL]

That means that the area of the spell can change, depending of what creatures you are trying to include in the spell. As I understand it a fixed range means that in every casting the area of effect is the save. For example detect magic always has 60 ft. cone. But for this spell, even though the maximum range is the same the actual area you can reach changes.

The range is a fixed 20' radius. The area of effect is a 30' diameter. The rules for area of effect on the edges of range state that any portion of an area of effect that goes outside the spell's range is not affected by the spell, but the part that is within the range is affected.

So, the spell affects one or more targets (up to a maximum number, yes?) who are both within a 30' circle (area of effect) and not more than 20' away from you (range).

[shaga]

Ok so let me ask a follow up question.

You have managed to cast persistent mass lesser vigor on three creatures, yourself and two other allies. What happens if one of the allies moves out of the spells ranges? Does the spell end for him? for all of you? for no one? What if that person that moved out of the spells range, moves back into the spells range? Does he get the spell effect back (assuming he lost it)??

[Andezzar]

Since it is not an emanation the spell affects all creatures in the area at the time of casting. Where they go to after that is irrelevant. Neither does the spell stop affecting them nor does the spell affect other creatures if they move into the area later on.

[Ernir]

Yeah, basically, the same stuff happens as when you cast Bull's Strength on someone, and that someone then moves out of touch range. Which is nothing at all.

Some spells break when the subjects move out of the original casting range, like Shield Other (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shieldOther.htm), but those spells say they do so in their description.