Replacing the Cleric

[hirojinbrodie]

Ok, I am newcomer here but have been playing dnd for a while now and have come into a problem. One of my first characters, a Gnome Cleric, has become stagnant for me, and I want to replace him. I am wondering if I am making the right choice. I don't want to play another cleric, and I was looking around and saw dragon shaman from phII. I know its a suboptimal class, but the role playing seems solid. I don't know though. I am worried the party will suffer for my choice. Any suggestions? I am open to other options for replacing clerics in party, or just a general discussion about it.
The party currently consists of a good silver half dragon fighter, a very solid arcane archer, a red wizard, a druid with some sanity issues, a psion, and of course me, the cleric.
It is a level twelve campaign. It strictly Forgotten Realms though most books are open. I would really appreciate some advice as soon as possible as I am really floundering here.

[A_S]

1. How optimized is the group? In mid to high op games, playing a low-tier character with high-tier ones can be very boring/frustrating, but in low op games, tier doesn't matter much. Among the current players, do the casters overpower everything so much that the fighter and the AA have trouble feeling like they're contributing? Or does everybody have fun and do pretty well?

2. How combat-focused is the game? Like optimization, this has a pretty big effect on how much tier matters. If you spend most of your time killing things, you want to be good at killing things. If it's primarily a roleplaying-focused game and combat just serves to move the plot along, then who cares if you're outclassed in fights?

-----

With those considerations in mind, you should know that Dragon Shaman is an awful lot weaker than Cleric, so if the answers to the above questions led you to think that power in combat is an important consideration, you might want to avoid it. If you like the draconic RP aspects, you might consider a dragon-themed Sorcerer (tier 2, or maybe 3 if you consider a focus on blasting to be part of the "draconic" theme), or a Dragonfire Adept (low tier 3-ish, or high tier 3-ish if you can get your hands on Metabreath feats, which can be done with some minor cheese or a fairly reasonable houserule).

[Duke of URL]

If you like the flavor of Dragon Shaman but think (and rightly so) that it's underpowered, consider a Dragonfire Adept instead, especially if you can get your DM to allow you to select Dragon Shaman auras using the Draconic Aura feat. Fairly similar flavor, but a well-built DFA should be a solid tier 3 (has it's own area to shine and isn't completely useless otherwise) whereas a Dragon Shaman is a tier 5.

[hirojinbrodie]

Unfortunately the group tends to optimize. That being said, the group is mostly composed of casters, and the fighter is mostly a glass cannon, so the roles I need to fulfill are healer or secondary healer and tank. The campaign is combat heavy, but I tend to take all the damage along with the glass cannon half dragon. Generally I spend most of the time healing myself.
DFA is nice, but we have enough damage in the party, and we need enough healing which the druid can partially or primarily supply.

[hirojinbrodie]

I am looking for a replacement first or second tier healer/tank option. I know replacing a cleric is really hard, but I don't want to get stuck playing a character that doesn't bring me much joy. From what I have seen dragon shaman offers some healing with good tank potential. Then again, any suggestion that fulfills that role would be nice.
The fighter doesn't really have the damage potential of the red wizard or the cleric I had, but that is to be slightly expected at that level.
To augment my damage output I was going to take power attack and leap attack with the copper dragon totem.

[A_S]

It's generally thought that playing a Cleric (or, to be honest, playing anything else) as a healer/tank is rather sub-optimal, and a waste of the Cleric's ludicrous tier 1 potential. Which isn't to say it's bad; it can be fun to play healer or to stand up front and take the hits. But the reason a Cleric is considered tier 1 isn't because it has good healing spells and can take a beating; it's because it can buff itself to fight ten times as well as the party fighter while also having half of its buffs apply to the rest of the party, then drop awesome spells like the Summon Monster line or any number of save or lose gems if it gets bored of crushing face up front, and then when the fight's over it's also the best healing class in the game and has plenty of divination and utility spells, too.

So, if what you want is to continue playing a healer well, there's no need to restrict yourself to tier 1/2 classes, because you're not playing the Cleric as a tier 1 character right now anyway (which, I want to stress again, is absolutely fine...there's no reason everybody should always play every class in the way that the forum hivemind has concluded is maximally optimal). So, have you considered Binder? Or maybe a fixed Truenamer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176665)? Or a Bard, who can make decent healers (among other roles)?

For that matter, with a Druid in your group already, you shouldn't even need to play a healer...and if you're getting bored playing your cleric that way, maybe you should try something else. Is there another role that looks fun? I'm sure Mr. Sanity Problems won't mind dishing out a few spell slots worth of HP every day.

*edit* Re: DFA, they're not really about damage, they're about battlefield control. Take a look at the Entangling Exhalation (http://dndtools.eu/feats/races-of-the-dragon--83/entangling-exhalation--900/) feat, the Slow Breath effect, and the Chilling Fog invocation. Properly played, a DFA can lock down a battlefield full of enemies in a round or two, while simultaneously making sure all your buddies can gang up on your foes one at a time and hose them (since Endure Exposure makes your party immune to your breath). Sure, you decent AoE damage at the same time, and Fivefold Breath is a good nuke, but keeping your enemies from going anywhere is what you really shine at. Does your Wizard play battlefield control right now, or is he more of a blaster?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Have you considered Favored Soul?

Cleric is to Favored Soul what Wizard is to Sorcerer

In other words, it's a spontaneously casting divine character, but it also has some combat ability. Not nearly as powerful as Cleric, but it can be made to work for your circumstances.

[hirojinbrodie]

The wizard tends to be a blaster, though honestly he is a divination specialist and a clever one at that, so really I can never be sure. I really want to be able to get into the middle of things, and mix it up, but I don't want to leave the druid feeling forced into a role. I will look at the dragonfire adept, but it doesn't seem to take hits as well, and we really need a tank. Maybe barbarian and say to hell with the healing? Idk. I classically play support, but would like to be more supportive in melee, which we have little of without the cleric.
I will look into favored soul, but it may be to similar to a cleric for my taste. Could be wrong though.

[A_S]

How about Crusader? They're melee monsters, they're good at battlefield control (as close as D&D really gets to tanking), they heal (a bunch of their strikes heal your allies if they hit), and they're practically nothing like Cleric.

[kitcik]

Have you considered having your existing cleric join a cult and completely change the way he operates?

Just some thoughts:
- now he will only cure you if you make a blood sacrifice to his new gawd
- he casts continual darkness on himself and walks around in a black blob
- he answers every question with a question
- he won't cast buffs unless you paint yourself in blood with sigils of his gawd
- etc.

[hirojinbrodie]

Crusader sounds really cool. Looked them up in book of nine swords. I am not sure if the DM will allow it, though I can certainly try. Our group tend to be wary of the book of nine swords, as it can really do some amazing things. Hrmm.
Yeah maybe I need to focus more on the tank and less on the healing.

[Duke of URL]

I am looking for a replacement first or second tier healer/tank option. I know replacing a cleric is really hard, but I don't want to get stuck playing a character that doesn't bring me much joy. From what I have seen dragon shaman offers some healing with good tank potential. Then again, any suggestion that fulfills that role would be nice.
The fighter doesn't really have the damage potential of the red wizard or the cleric I had, but that is to be slightly expected at that level.
To augment my damage output I was going to take power attack and leap attack with the copper dragon totem.

This is why I suggest getting the DM's ok to take DS auras with the Draconic Aura feat. The one that provides fast healing N for anyone under 50% max HP is a nice, though primarily downtime, effect. UMD wands for more immediate healing.

DFA takes hits just fine -- a lack of armor proficiency doesn't matter because they don't use attack rolls and they've got gobs of extra HP from their CON focus. Also, don't think of them as damage dealers but rather as battlefield controllers.

[Andry]

I agree with the Crusader or maybe a Bardsader so you can also use some healing wands.

[hirojinbrodie]

Hrmm make him evil...I LOVE IT. Maybe that is what my character needs. He actually barely borders the line of neutral, taking protection, repose, and glory domains, and using harm as often as possible. Idk i can talk to my DM. It may help, or the follower of bahamut in the party (guess which one it is :smallsmile:) may just take me out. Of course he hasn't killed the red wizard, though i certainly have been looking for a opportunity to.

[hirojinbrodie]

I like crusader, and getting UMD would be really helpful. Really I been relishing the thought of playing a tank. Really so long as I can soak dmg, our party should be ok. I am not sure if Crusader will be allowed. Any other options for tanking (frenzied berserker for TPK lol)

[Duke of URL]

Outside of Crusader (and maybe even better than it), the best tank would probably be... um... Cleric.

[Ziegander]

Ok, I am newcomer here but have been playing dnd for a while now and have come into a problem. One of my first characters, a Gnome Cleric, has become stagnant for me, and I want to replace him. I am wondering if I am making the right choice. I don't want to play another cleric, and I was looking around and saw dragon shaman from phII. I know its a suboptimal class, but the role playing seems solid.

To begin, what was it about the Cleric class that became stagnant for you? I ask because it's one of the most versatile classes in the game and is able to be molded into a staggeringly wide variety of character types. Once we identify what you didn't like about playing a Cleric, then it should be easier to suggest alternatives that can do similar things in fresh, exciting ways.


I am looking for a replacement first or second tier healer/tank option. I know replacing a cleric is really hard, but I don't want to get stuck playing a character that doesn't bring me much joy. From what I have seen dragon shaman offers some healing with good tank potential.

Dragon Shaman really doesn't do tanking. In all honesty, there's really no class in D&D that can "tank" correctly, but if you want to draw attacks and soak up damage, then playing Dragon Shaman is not a great choice.

For that matter, healing is also a really suboptimal role to focus your character on. Spending wealth for healing is not only more efficient, but also almost anyone can do it with some investment.

My advice for you, should you decide to play Dragon Shaman, is don't look at Touch of Vitality as healing. If you want to heal the other players buy them healing belts and get Use Magic Device as a class skill for wands. Cash-based healing is just infinitely better than Touch of Vitality.

Instead, use Touch of Vitality on yourself as "reserve hit points." For example, at 6th level, when you get it, you've got 10 + 5d10 + 6(Con mod) hit points. Being conservative, you've probably got a +4 modifier by now, so that's a not bad 62 hit points. Let's say you've also got a +3 Cha mod. You would have 2(Class Level)*Cha mod in reserve HP, giving you an extra 36 "effective hit points." You'll probably never run out of hit points, between this and the vigor aura. The problem is that you have no way of drawing attacks from more dangerous party members to yourself.


To augment my damage output I was going to take power attack and leap attack with the copper dragon totem.

This isn't a great idea. You have medium BAB and your Strength/Dexterity scores are not likely to be better than adequate (given your need for Constitution and Charisma). This is where the class falls short of course. You have almost no active/offensive presence.

The best thing you can probably do (actively) is focus on that breath weapon, taking feats like Rapid Breath, Entangling Breath, and Exhaled Barrier, to deal a little damage and offer some battlefield control. Throwing Clinging Breath on there, after applying Rapid Breath, will allow you to deal a little more damage, but it's probably not worth it. See if the DM will allow your roll determining when you can use the Breath again to apply to how long Entangling Breath/Exhaled Barrier lasts to simplify and streamline the results.

[hirojinbrodie]

My problem is likely my back story. He was designed to be the most melancholy gnome ever, and has been going out of his way to armor up and cast spells in melee. His entire tribe was burned alive and it left him feel rather scorned. Problem is he is a jerk. Well I should say she, since he died and was reincarnated as a half elf (lesson learned about defensive casting). His dark mood doesn't really uplift the party and pushes people away. Unfortunately, there is little reason for him to be happy. His family is dead, has to support a red wizard which though tame by red wizard standards is still a complete jerk. Other people really don't get along with him, and battle really doesn't offer him enough time to do anything unique. He just seems to get darker and darker.
So I wanted to bring in a humorous character that fulfills similar roles. Idk, I don't like losing characters, but I am becoming frustrated in the role.

[Duke of URL]

Hmmm... that's a whole other issue, of course.

What type of thing could conceivably happen to him to change his outlook on life? You might be better off turning this (with coordination with you DM, of course) into a side quest to develop your current character in a new direction, rather than replacing the character in the first place.

[Medic!]

I couldn't agree more with the crusader advice...I'm playing one in our current table-top game and he performs beautifully in just about any scenario in battlefield control and general mayhem amongst the enemy ranks. As an added bonus our favored soul has cast literally one cure spell the entire campaign so far and it was on a vampire we were fighting.


If your DM will let you play a crusader, you won't be dissapointed in the least!

Secondarily, if crusader is a no-go, I'd probly say whip up a tasty battlefield control/debuff sorc/incantrix...with the right feat set up and spell choices it can go a very long way towards preventing a ton of damage to your party. I did that with a character once as well, performed very well in mid to high levels....who doesn't like dumping 96 negative levels spread out amongst a group of enemies (or targetted on one just to hear the DM's description) in one turn at the cost of one spell-per-day with no save?

[hirojinbrodie]

Not really all that much time for a discovering myself side quest. The way the campaign is going, we are likely going off to war. So not a lot of me time lol. Idk. His son did survive, but really he has no contact with him ever (son join thieves guild). Maybe a new loved one or something. Not sure what the character needs.

[hirojinbrodie]

Crusader would be great. Could actually directly transfer over my dragon shaman character concept over to the crusader. The abilities of the crusader mesh well with what i had in mind.
Like I said, I enjoy the gnome, just not the darkness of his personality. Its rough playing that week after week, especially when dark tends to be a matter of fact for my character (I'm a twisted human being lol).
my only other character I play outside of the game I DM myself is a extremely scared burn victim, alcoholic writer in a silent hill campaign lol.

[hirojinbrodie]

Any ideas on building a crusader. Looking for HP and dmg potential.

[Medic!]

I consider crusader to be a fairly unique class in all of DnD, mostly because of the delayed damage pool....when I started playing mine it took some time to get used to WANTING to be hit. Also HELLO Vicious weapon enhancement, how do you do!?!?

I used to play with a guy that would switch characters fairly regularly....this last campaign he literally played 3 different characters over the span of 2 sessions...for some reason (not on purpose) his PCs always had this real human quality about 'em and were honestly very interesting to follow...but as soon as a conflict came up or something didn't go perfectly for them he'd ride them off into the sunset and bring in a new PC (usually after shafting the party in one way or another). I'm not in any way implying that you're "that guy" in any way shape of form, but that story informs this statement: The most rewarding form of character development isn't always level gain and the trek to awesome-city...sometimes it's watching them grow as a person! If you're mechanically satisfied and happy with your cleric, the only thing stopping him from turning a corner personality-wise is his player! It's never too late, even for a cleric, to get religion (hahaha) and pick up some crusader levels, or levels of whatever, and change his outlook on life.


For a crusader build, there's quite a few handbooks out there, but at it's most basic level, I'd say con>str>dex>cha>wis>int, pick up a vicious spiked chain, and just go nuts. Battlefield control feats seem to work out well, whether you go with a tripping focus, or an AoO machine. Power Attack and Stand Still is a great feat combo, as is taking Imperious Command from DotU along with the Fearsome armor enhancement (also from DotU) and the Never Outnumbered skill trick from Complete Scoundrel...get your intimidate high enough and 1/encounter you have...basically a PBAE win-button!

[Ziegander]

Any ideas on building a crusader. Looking for HP and dmg potential.

If you're looking to play a Crusader, but you're worried that the DM won't give you the OK, the you're going to want to be as unobtrusive as possible. Don't focus on the damage potential, as using Tome of Battle is likely to improve your melee damage output to the point that it makes the DM slightly uncomfortable even without trying.

Instead, you want to focus your efforts on the defensive side of things. Make yourself super tough, and grant your allies defensive advantages as well as healing.

You want the Stone Power feat, for sure. From there, maneuvers like Crusader's Strike and Leading the Attack are perfect. Pick Shield Block over the obvious Mountain Hammer to be more DM-friendly, and try Stone Vise rather than Tactical Strike.

Devoted Spirit has all the stances you'll ever need from Iron Guard's Glare to Martial Spirit, Thicket of Blades, and Immortal Fortitude.

[Greyfeld85]

Any ideas on building a crusader. Looking for HP and dmg potential.

While Crusader is good, I'm going to second the BardSader idea. Taking 4 levels in Bard before jumping into Crusader, then picking up Song of the White Raven so you can activate Inspire Courage as a swift action. This will also grant you 2nd-level bard spells, UMD, plenty of skill points, and you can use wands with Bard spells on them (including the Cure line of spells).

It's a great tank/support build. And I've always liked the idea of a knight who sings songs about war, or recites ballads, while clubbing people over the head. It has a rather poetic feel to it, and can be downright terrifying xD

[Gnomish Wanderer]

It sounds like what you have here is a roleplaying issue rather than a class issue.

I agree, a sidequest is what you need. Make it short, make him see the good in people or something. Give him a complete 180. Try something like that to fix the character into something you're ok with.

Lastly if the only problem is how the character is played, why not just make a different type of cleric? Again they can be very versatile while still staying optimized.

[Draz74]

Psionics offer my favorite healing-role options in the game. They're better using Pathfinder material, which improved the Egoist and introduced the Vitalist; but even without PF, the Egoist can be made into a great healer-type with a few shenanigans (or just an ACF, if you're at least Level 11 or 12).

Egoists aren't going to be bashing monsters' faces in without some serious gishing, but as far as being able to take a hit, they've got "tanking" covered as well, with the Vigor/Psicrystal/Share Pain combo.

[GenghisDon]

The party currently consists of a good silver half dragon fighter, a very solid arcane archer, a red wizard, a druid with some sanity issues, a psion, and of course me, the cleric.
It is a level twelve campaign.

what level (of 12) are you now? If the answer is 9+, just play the cleric a while longer. Or at least look at some FR appropriate PRC that can alter the character's direction. What deity is your cleric of?

Other than that...play the dragon shaman you wanted or any class you like. You don't need to fill any special role in that party. The others can adjust a little if need be (& there is probably little need).

Some are focusing on the (potentialy) uber members of the party, but there are less uber sounding ones there too. Play whatever suits you, although being FR, I'd go with some FR stuff & avoid non FR. That's just me. It's a war game? Keep that in mind.

Best of luck & have fun!

[Hiro Protagonest]

You SAY your group tends to optimize, but
A) there's a half-dragon fighter
B) there's an Arcane Archer
C) they're wary of ToB.

That... makes me think otherwise.

[Gavinfoxx]

You DO know how to play a cleric as a melee god of war, yes?

You know that it is one of the best classes for wading into the midst of things, and being an unkillable, hits like a battering ram, take no prisoners sort of martial paragon?

[hirojinbrodie]

Ok maybe not over optimized. They really do deal far and away enough dmg to take down enemies, and our combat only last a round or two. Admittedly I aided in this through the use of harm spells and the like (I tended to like to be close to the enemy). The arcane archer averages 50pts of dmg per round from a range, and its force dmg so its hard to resist. The Wizard just blasts everything to hell, and the half dragon may not have a lot of HP, but he hits hard.
The druid is still finding his step, but overall we have a lot of converge when it comes to party needs in the campaign.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You DO know how to play a cleric as a melee god of war, yes?

You know that it is one of the best classes for wading into the midst of things, and being an unkillable, hits like a battering ram, take no prisoners sort of martial paragon?

At the core, the equation looks like this:

DMM: Persist * (Divine Power + Righteous Might + Vigor).

Translation:

Effectively full base attack bonus, free size expansion, bonus hit points and Strength boost, DR/Evil (or Good), fast healing, all day long.

In other words, a better fighter than the Fighter.

[hirojinbrodie]

Well I haven't been using DMM, like I said it was one of my first characters. I am eleven levels cleric of Kelemevor, one lvl warpriest (again, first characters). Have protection, Repose, and Glory Domains.
Problem with that combination comes from the short time of battle. I just don't have time to cast all that, and I have found that using touch spells (casting defensively of course) helps more than trying to do straight dmg.

[Rejakor]

When he says optimization, i'm guessing it's of the dual wielding two bastard swords kind.

Also, casting cure spells in melee, given the incredible weakness of cure spells vs monster damage, is not exactly optimal.

Can I suggest having a read of The Cleric Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1238.0) and The Crusader Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2645.0)? They might tell you some things about the classes that you don't know.

For example, a properly buffed cleric just shouldn't be getting hit by stuff that isn't touch attacks. Ever. And he should be beating nine kinds of face in with a spikes'd wooden club, Divine Power, Righteous Might, and Greater Mighty Wallop. Not to mention divine favour, righteous wrath of the faithful, polymorph... and if you don't feel like being UTTERLY INVINCIBLE and A FREAKIN' GOD OF WAR you can just hang out in the back, invisible, and drop spiritual weapons, summoned monsters (pick the right ones - there is also a handbook for picking the right ones), holy words and whatever else you feel like all over the top of the enemies.


You want my advice? Get religion. Your gnome does NOT sound like someone powered by his faith. He sounds like someone who is losing/has lost his faith. Get it back. Get over your village's loss, realize there is still good you can do in the world, and get some EXALTED all up in your alignment. Retrain a few feats, and start walking around with some persistent buffs on all day long - and start being really goddamn good. Lose your armour(donate it if you can), and buy a monk's belt. Walk around all day with Greater Luminous Armour (Magic Vestment'd, of course) and a pair of Defending Merciful Gauntlets (Greater Magic Weapon'd, of course), which you use to beat people back to their senses (or a pair of greatswords - I don't care) - you're a gnome that's the size of a human (Righteous Might, do you speak it), you hit as hard as a fighter (Divine Power - your faith got renewed, and SO DID YOU) THREE TIMES YOUR SIZE (Greater Mighty Wallop - let them know what your god feels about what they're doin'), and just pop sanctified spells out of your wazoo. There's some crazy blinding light stuff in there, and you can pop centaurs out for no reason, and there's even a sweet spell that turns an evil creature Exalted Good. Have a total on-screen about-face, and just be this freakin' tiny avatar of Awesome Good from that point onwards.

Hell, persist Visage of the Deity, and literally fly around as a tiny avatar of your god.

And then good times will be had by all.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, the point of 'casting all of that' is to:

A.) Have it cast at the beginning of the day and last all day
B.) Quicken relevant buffs as you fight
C.) Set up fights and such so that YOU get to decide when and how the battle happens, so you can buff ahead of the fights.

Really, if you use the right spells intelligently, you shouldn't really enter any fights unbuffed.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Ok maybe not over optimized. They really do deal far and away enough dmg to take down enemies, and our combat only last a round or two. Admittedly I aided in this through the use of harm spells and the like (I tended to like to be close to the enemy). The arcane archer averages 50pts of dmg per round from a range, and its force dmg so its hard to resist. The Wizard just blasts everything to hell, and the half dragon may not have a lot of HP, but he hits hard.
The druid is still finding his step, but overall we have a lot of converge when it comes to party needs in the campaign.

Ummm... yea. Optimized. Right.

Okay, if your optimization requirements include 'average 50 damage that is hard to resist', with blastomancy being the spellcasting of choice, and the half-dragon 'hitting hard', then I think I know what to suggest:

Paladin. No, really. You get to hit hard, you get to toss around some healing (especially if you get a couple of wands), and you can use your turn undead attempts to fuel Devotion feats.

Touch of Healing is a reserve feat that heals allies effectively for free, up to half their maximum hit points. It can be used for out of combat healing to ease up on the resources you use.

Battle Blessing lets you cast your spells as Swift rather than Standard actions

Knowledge Devotion can give you a decent boost to attack and damage
Sun Devotion gives more damage, but without the attack bonuses.
Strength Devotion allows you to bypass DR
Law Devotion gives a better attack bonus than Knowledge Devotion, but without the additional bonus to damage. It can also give an AC bonus if you need to shore up your defenses.

Pick two devotional feats and have fun.

[hirojinbrodie]

Ok so really not optimized lol. In my own defense, I have managed characters at twentieth level with AC of sixty unarmored, with other abilities that essentially made him a super hero. I have seen people go out of their way to break campaigns. So in saying this group is optimized is a stretch, though I am aware what that truly means.
However I am not looking for power here. I am looking for role-playing satisfaction, and unfortunately the likely path before him is a evil one, which I have done over and over and over again lol.
Good news is that the DM is ok with crusader or dragon shaman. I will go with crusader as it is the stronger of the two options. Lots of love to dragon shaman for flavor, but I can achieve that with a dragon devoted crusader.

[Ziegander]

You SAY your group tends to optimize, but
A) there's a half-dragon fighter
B) there's an Arcane Archer
C) they're wary of ToB.

That... makes me think otherwise.


When he says optimization, i'm guessing it's of the dual wielding two bastard swords kind.


Ummm... yea. Optimized. Right.

Okay, if your optimization requirements include 'average 50 damage that is hard to resist', with blastomancy being the spellcasting of choice, and the half-dragon 'hitting hard', then I think I know what to suggest:

Paladin. No, really. You get to hit hard, you get to toss around some healing (especially if you get a couple of wands), and you can use your turn undead attempts to fuel Devotion feats.

Yes, guys, let's be as patronizing and belittling as possible. Because that helps the player with his situation at hand. Climb down from your Ivory Towers for a second. The optimization of the group is not a problem, at least not one that he's asking for help about. He doesn't like playing his character anymore, and he's asking us for advice on making a new character. So give him good advice or shut up. Enough with this inane, "hurdurr, you suck, so you should probably just play a Soulknife, LOLCATZ!"

EDIT: Sorry, that came off a little more harshly than necessary. I know Rej and Shneekey did both go on to give solid advice, but still, no need to open the conversation with so much contempt.

[Endarire]

I +1 Crusader for the healy/tanky thingy.

Also, see this guide (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871786/A_Players_Guide_to_Healing_%28And,_why_you_will_be _Just_Fine_without_a_Cleric_to_heal%29).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yes, guys, let's be as patronizing and belittling as possible. Because that helps the player with his situation at hand. Climb down from your Ivory Towers for a second. The optimization of the group is not a problem, at least not one that he's asking for help about. He doesn't like playing his character anymore, and he's asking us for advice on making a new character. So give him good advice or shut up. Enough with this inane, "hurdurr, you suck, so you should probably just play a Soulknife, LOLCATZ!"

EDIT: Sorry, that came off a little more harshly than necessary. I know Rej and Shneekey did both go on to give solid advice, but still, no need to open the conversation with so much contempt.

Mmmkay... here's the deal.

While I may be known for being an optimizer, I also have a rather strong viewpoint about not optimizing over or under the party's average level too far. Too far one way, say a Clericzilla, and he becomes the 'star' with the rest of the party being 'extras'. Too far the other way, and he becomes unable to contribute in combat.

Knowing what the optimization level of the party is at... I made my suggestion seriously as Paladin, with the bells and whistles listed, because I felt that Crusader or some of the other options would have vastly overshadowed the rest of the party. I mean, let's face it. A mid-level Crusader can piss out 200+ damage a round by accident. That's a lot more than what this party is used to.

The Paladin idea I suggested is more powerful than what most optimizers think of when they hear 'paladin', but it's still nowhere near what a Crusader or, pun-pun help us, a Clericzilla, could do.

In other words, I wasn't being patronizing or belittling. I was acknowledging the level of optimization, and providing a customized suggestion which best fits the primary and secondary roles requested (healing and beatstick/tank) within that optimization range.

[Rejakor]

There's nothing particularly WRONG with optimization of the dual wielding bastard swords kind. It's just a specific kind of thing where people assume that the upper and lower bounds are different than they are, and make stuff that is at their upper bound, but which is not particularly upper bound for the system. It's pretty common in 3.5, there's a lot of people that think that the monk is amazing and that 60 AC at level 20 is hax, and for those people, his group is probably pretty optimized.

It's not the same as what optimizers would call optimized, though, by any margin.

A lot of cleric's power is it's unkillability, and since his party is wiping out most fights in a turn, i.e. the DM is sticking to CR and playing everything as a beatstick, I don't think a clericzilla-lite would break the bank.

And playing a battle blessing paladin is actually kinda hard, you really have to know how to use your very few spells really well, and plow all your feats into one of the melee combos.

A battle blessing cleric/prestige paladin, though, would be a workable idea.

[hirojinbrodie]

I really appreciate all the support I have been getting from the group. I didn't mean to cause such heated debate, but that is the way of the world.
I agree about trying to get the players power to a point where the party doesn't feel useless, as that was a issue I was really scared of. Being the cleric and then pulling it away can lead to some issues in terms of covering the gap, while also not overcompensating.
I like the idea of paladin as some of the other suggestions that I will try to implement, namely UMD which will allow me to be more open in my selection of classes.
Still like the crusader. Perhaps I can find a way to use one without breaking the bank.

[hirojinbrodie]

Are there any good prestige classes for crusader or paladin? For crusader I'm looking for balancing and flavor. For Paladin its more in the way of improving on places where the class is weak.

[MrRigger]

Don't know about the Paladin, as I've never played one. And as for the Crusader? There's the Ruby Knight Vindicator, but that involves going Cleric again, and no others come to mind. Crusader is really pretty solid on its own.

MrRigger

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Are there any good prestige classes for crusader or paladin? For crusader I'm looking for balancing and flavor. For Paladin its more in the way of improving on places where the class is weak.

Well, that depends on what you want to do.

For Crusader, it's hard to not just go with more Crusader. There's very few PrC's that are worth it for a Crusader to get into. Unless you plan on going Ruby Knight Windicator, or some dips hither and yon to match up your stances known to the levels you actually get stances in (dips like Fighter for bonus feats or PsyWar for a couple of powers and bonus feats), there's not really a lot of call for PrCing out of Crusader.

As far as Paladin, it really depends on what you want to do with it. Sure, there's several PrC's that might work, but it mostly depends on what abilities you want to focus on. Just remember that if you are wanting to use Turn Undead attempts to fuel Devotion feats, you need at least four levels, and he doesn't get 2nd level spells (for the Healing Touch reserve feat) until level 8.

Divine Crusader has a reputation of being potentially broken, but it does net you up to 9th level spells in the domain of choice. If you pick the Healing domain, you'll be able to keep up with healing without overpowering everyone else.

The Hospitaler is rather weak, but at least you pick up a couple of bonus feats in the process

Pious Templar nets you Mettle and some good defensive abilities, but has its own spellcasting track. Still, if you go Paladin5/Pious Templar3, you ned 2nd level spells at 8th character level, which is where you would have anyways, and the rest are obtained a little sooner than normal. It's a grab bag of abilities... Mettle is the big one, but you might get a use out of the DR/- or the bonus feats.

The Shining Blade of Holier Than Thou... er I mean Heironeous. It really isn't worth it, since you really only get a very minor bonus, when all is said and done.

Warpriest is a solid choice. It really is.

If you don't want to bother with casting, there's a variant in Complete Champion which lets you trade off spellcasting for a few bonus feats.

If you want a darker and grittier Paladin, try Greyguard.

[GenghisDon]

Yes, guys, let's be as patronizing and belittling as possible. Because that helps the player with his situation at hand. Climb down from your Ivory Towers for a second. The optimization of the group is not a problem, at least not one that he's asking for help about. He doesn't like playing his character anymore, and he's asking us for advice on making a new character. So give him good advice or shut up. Enough with this inane, "hurdurr, you suck, so you should probably just play a Soulknife, LOLCATZ!"

EDIT: Sorry, that came off a little more harshly than necessary. I know Rej and Shneekey did both go on to give solid advice, but still, no need to open the conversation with so much contempt.

No, I think you had the correct tone. He didn't say "help me kill stuff better" & from what he actually DID say, killing stuff is NO ISSUE for the group, in fact it's ALREADY TOO EASY.

Yeah, making a problem worse is the first thing to do:smallsigh:

[GenghisDon]

Well I haven't been using DMM, like I said it was one of my first characters. I am eleven levels cleric of Kelemevor, one lvl warpriest (again, first characters). Have protection, Repose, and Glory Domains.
Problem with that combination comes from the short time of battle. I just don't have time to cast all that, and I have found that using touch spells (casting defensively of course) helps more than trying to do straight dmg.

I'm sorry, I thought you said the campaign was only to L12...you are L12 now. Did I misunderstand?

If there is just a big finish left, play your cleric another time or 2; maybe go out in a blaze of glory (or even go darkside/mad in the last chapter) given his increasingly depressive mental state.

I'd ask the DM to make the enemies somewhat tougher (ie more durable) in the future, so combat can be more rewarding.

You might even need LESS "optimization" among some of the other players, even with as little as it sounds there is. But it sounds like a DM issue actually. No offense to him or her at all, but 1-2 round combats can't be too memorable or exciting. They need to work on that. If not & they can't or won't, try to convince the others to play more challenging PC's, self ban yourselves from Tier 1 & 2 classes, ect.

assuming I'm not nuts & the game IS coming to a close soon.

[hirojinbrodie]

Honestly my DM's have a problem with ending campaigns. I think I am actually the only one in my current group to ever end a campaign. That being said, I have no idea what is on the DM's mind. Seems like it still has a bit, but I really don't know. We are level twelve and the campaign can go on till who knows when...likely it will just pause for a bit so someone else can run. We are very restless lol.

[GenghisDon]

Well, much of what I said is moot then. I'd definetely ask the DM how far they see the game going before making a new character however.

However, the most important part is genuine communication with the DM. Let them know, in a way that gets your concerns/desires across without being too critical or negative, what you'd like, and even weak points in his game, such as no end (many want open ended games, but not all/you) or combat that is too easy (if I'm correct that this isn't exciting/fun as it is).

This can always backfire, but it's worth some risk to improve their & your gaming.

Best,
Don

[Ravens_cry]

If you want to replace the cleric, what do you want the replacement to do?
Personally, I would remove the uber personal only buffs and add more, and better, mass buffs. That way if they are charging into battle with buffed to the gills, their buddies are too.
I'd also add spells that would make in-combat healing more attractive; perhaps a set of spell that heals a percentage of the total rather than a nearly set amount.

[hirojinbrodie]

It seems that although the dragon shaman is less than perfect, it will allow me to do all the things I want to do, namely offer bonuses, heal without wasting attack actions (passively of course) and of course also offer the role play I need. I think I am going to try the dragon shaman approach tomorrow. If that doesn't work out, I will try crusader, but it seems really complicated, which isn't too much to handle, but can slow down battles to manage it.

[silverwolfer]

TURN EVIL!!!!!! EEEEVVVVILLLLLLLLLLL


seriously, evil gnome is like..some of the best rp that can possibly be

[hirojinbrodie]

See the thing is I don't like doing the same thing twice. In my groups pathfinder game, I play a very evil witch, who through careful consideration manages to not set off any warning signals to the rest of the party. As I mentioned earlier, I play a manic depressive alcoholic burn victim (might as well be called charcoal at this point he is so burned) in a silent hill game (D20 Modern) who is sinking completely into his hate. In a Star Wars campaign I am playing a Khil who not only is the captain of the ship, but has managed to become haunted by a Sith Lord of ages past, while his endless search for power to stop a war leads him to the dark-side. Somehow still alive with several force users in the group. Hell, even the warforged monk I played got corrupted, but was party killed before he managed to succumb fully to it.
Not to beat a dad horse, but I have played evil before, and though I know I that is the direction the cleric is headed, I would rather do something I haven't, namely be funny. I have played crazy which was funny, but not funny.
Of course I could always talk to the DM. Maybe I could bring back the cleric in a couple of levels, after his decent is complete. Idk, I don't know what the DM is going to do with him. Well...her, as he is a female half elf now lol.

[silverwolfer]

Maybe what your problem is then, is that you have played wordly characters

Maybe if you tried playing someone that was outer realms touched or even an alienist prc ?


See if you can find a lords of madness book for some hints on how to do it d&d wise.

[Hyde]

I notice a lot of players play "classes" rather than "characters", even in the groups I've run with.

What I mean to say is that even though you're playing a cleric, it doesn't mean you have to play to the archetype.

For example, nearly every character in the OOTS comic is more or less what you would "expect" a character of that class to play like, and then there's Belkar.

I'm not saying you have to be a sociopathic murderer, but try to come up with the character you'd like to play even before you pick a class.


I suppose the best example of this from my games would be our party's barbarian. He's not a raging mountain man as much as he is a gladiator with a hair trigger. He decided on his own that his rage would only trigger under certain circumstances- in this case, his character was pathologically afraid of magic and would black out and try to murder any caster or obviously magical device.

So barbarian ended up being the best fit for the character.


It's been my experience that players that say "Well, next I'll roll a paladin" have less rewarding role-playing than those that say "I'm going to play Chuck Danger, Extreme Dungeoneer!"

I'm sure this will spark comments of "well we have plenty of roleplaying fun times even doing it the old way."

Well, I'm sure that's true.

but don't knock it til you try it.

[silverwolfer]

I think what makes a pally interesting to rp, is not the class itself, but the prc you choose to portray your actions, would be an awesome if we ever got a prc that shifted someone from being a power of lawful goodtwo shoes, but just pure alignment of lawful or chaotic.

[hirojinbrodie]

I completely agree. Rolplaying games require roleplay, and you can only do that if you develop a strong personality and identity. The bard I played was a warforged scout who looked like a child, and truly believed he was a real child, and acted as such. This led to the party being united in helping this kid get home. His one desire after finding out what he really was, was to become a real boy. Kinda a twisted Pinocchio. The way he achieved this goal was truly one of the most memorable and enjoyable moments I have had with dnd.
Point being is that you should develop a character, not a class. In my experience it is far more fun and rewarding to have a full role playing element, then it is to necessarily fulfill a "role."
People who just try to do something powerful or unique, but lack a strong character basis, tend to fall aside to those who have strong personalities. Not all campaigns require it, but all the campaigns I have either run or participated in that had that level of developed characters tend to be the most fun.

[silverwolfer]

well myself right now, I am trying to get a PHBII shifter druid varient into a game, and have him going nature's warrior prc. You know type of thing that he is the runt of his litter sort of thing. Hates humans, and spends most of his time as an animal. As for not trying to gimp my party while also doing roleplay, he still qualifies for wildfeat based prc's and can still use natural spell feat.


It is about picturing what your goal is, and talking to your dm on how to get their, and not ruin the power levels or make yourself useless.

[hirojinbrodie]

Sorry. I know I get a bit talky with my stories.
Any-who, I do like the paladin idea. I played one for a short while, but only got to play her for a couple of sessions before the campaign fizzled out. Any ideas on prestige classes. Didn't really have very long to look into it when I made the character, and ended up moving onto other ideas shortly thereafter. The more flavor the better I suppose.

[hirojinbrodie]

Also, I really need a ruling on this. Ok, the extreme leap skill trick from complete scoundrel says that if you make a tenfoot jump in a round, then you can spend a swift action to move a additional ten feet. You know what, let me just quote it.

"Extreme Leap [Movement]

Your extraordinary leaping ability carries you over great distances.
Prerequisite: Jump 5 ranks.
Benefit: If you make a horizontal jump of at least 10 feet during your turn, you can spend a swift action to move an additional 10 feet on that turn."

So here is my question. Could I use a charge for a leap attack, hit the opponent, and then spend a swift action (which I believe you have one per round without sacrificing your full round action) and then move back ten feet to set up another charge next rnd?

[A_S]

I believe the answer to that is "yes." But why not use your swift action to jump 10 feet into the air after your charge, then fall on your opponent to trigger a second leap attack?

(Answer: Because it's total cheese bull#$^* But cool.)

[hirojinbrodie]

This is why I love this forum. The ideas just keep on coming. How would that trigger a second leap attack if leap attack is a full rnd action? Or are you talking about the following rnd?

[A_S]

Whoops, was getting Leap Attack mixed up with one of those Shadow Pounce-like abilities that triggers non-action full attacks. My bad.

[hirojinbrodie]

Np. I am just trying to work out some manner in which to be more effective in mellee, namely power attack+leap attack+charge+awesome jump check=win! lol. Well sortuve. I don't have enough feats to work with with the character to do anything more dramatic.

IA: To be honest it is still frustrating to lose a character for any reason, but losing the joy you once felt playing them is really disappointing. I am not the type to give up on a character. Hell, the only time I usually replace one is they die! lol. Hopefully the change will be worth it.

[silverwolfer]

Okay here is my suggestion

Pally+shadowbane inquisitor+ grey gaurd = batman

[hirojinbrodie]

Hrmm I will make sure to copy that down and take a look. When I tried to make batman before I used Human Paragon (UMD) Monk Duelist. Not a very good dmg dealer, but hard as hell to hit. Maybe your combination would offer more combat savvy.

IA: That build does bring into question the morality of batman. I know this is the wrong place to have this discussion, but you could argue, depending on which incarnation you are speaking of, that he could match any alignment, even the evil ones (think wolverine; I once heard wolverine described as a villain trying to be a hero, rather fitting I think).

[silverwolfer]

Batman has a creed of not killing folks, so he tends to be more choatic good, as are most anti heros.


The darker ones like wolverine, punisher, and all that, could be considered chaotic neutrail, with good leanings depending on the event.

[hirojinbrodie]

Possibly. However it is important to note that just because you do not kill doesn't mean you are good. I believe you are right on alignment, though batman believes in institutions so he might be the edge of CG and LG. That being said, many of his incarnations have had him relishing in the torment and torture of criminals. Read "The Dark Night Returns" to see what I mean.
Does that make him evil. No. But he certainly comes close to crossing the line on more than one occasion, and the rest of the time can often be found skirting the edge, so his alignment really is all over the place.
Of course, his alignment should always be questionable. Its what makes him a unique character.

[silverwolfer]

The concept that an alighment must be one time all the time, is what makes things easier on them GM and other players.

Same thing why no one really wants a chaotic neutral in the party.

[hirojinbrodie]

Idk. My party loves neutrality, and more than a few times I have encountered individuals in campaigns whose lack of conviction for good or bad, or for anything other than themselves, have cause my generally very purpose driven characters a hell of a lot of headaches.
I don't like them, but the party often does.
But, I agree that alignment really does help to streamline the process. It is what makes a change in alignment so jarring.

[ShadowPsyker]

If your'e not allowed ToB, you could always play a barbarian with Cosmopolitan (UMD) then either take thick skin (DR goes to 4 and stacks with all others) and a magic shirt to bump that up OR go for one of the feat chains that grants DR like; fey heritage (If you have a decent Cha the look on the ememies face when you start charming their allies or putting some to sleep is priceless). Then just remember to keep some eternal wands of cure serious around. Note: A human of 12th level could have all 5 fey feats plus Cosmopolitan (That's DR 5/cold Iron plus Dr 2/-). Feel free to also grab arcane wands just so you can fling some fireballs and stuff. You know; a casual afternoon as your friendly barbarian spell-slinger.

Edit: If you don't like the loss of AC when raging, go for the whirling frenzy ACF where your AC actually jumps and you get an extra attack if you want. Also if you don't mind the loss of +10 ft movement you can gain pounce instead.

[Tvtyrant]

You SAY your group tends to optimize, but
A) there's a half-dragon fighter
B) there's an Arcane Archer
C) they're wary of ToB.

That... makes me think otherwise.

I think two levels of AA can be quite good actually. For instance, Imbue Arrow automatically sets the casting time to standard, so you can cast Control Weather in a single turn rather than after a ten minute wait.

[hirojinbrodie]

Well I brought in the dragon shaman and it went wonderfully. Thank you to everyone for your suggestions. I really got a lot of help here. Somehow I managed the roles I needed rather well, and the characters role-play was truly awesome. I may bring back my cleric later ( after all, I may have played evil , but it is so damn fun) but for now I am satisfied with my choice. Dm was shocked how much hp I had at the end of the session, and honestly the dragon shaman was, as odd as this might sound, actually more helpful overall then the cleric would have been. Lots of fort saves to be made, and the auras and touch of vitality really made a difference for everyone.

IA: we did have to kill a vampire. Could have used the daylight spell I had the cleric prepare. Damn bloodsuckers lol.