Minion system from 4E in 3.5

[yougi]

Yesterday, I did something terrible, something truly despicable. I tried 4E... and I liked it. *GASP*

Well to be fair I still prefer my good old 3.5. However, there are 2 things I like from 4th and that I'd actually think about adapting into my own 3.5 games.

1- Magic items give new abilities: I remember reading from this game designer who said that giving someone a ring that gives you +2 Str is kinda meh, but giving that same person a ring that allows him to Rage 1/day will probably be seen as pretty darn awesome. It's how our mind works: new abilities are shinier than improving those that exist.

2- High hit points at 1st level: In 1E and 2E, first level was like any other: you rolled your HD, and if you rolled 1, well, good luck. In 3E, you have max HP for your first level. In 4E, you have some really high number (10-20 from what I saw) + your Con SCORE (not modifier, score). Therefore, my Avenger had 30HP at first level, and I mean, that's not particularly incredible.

3- Minion monsters: Yesterday, our 6 man party ran 2 combat encounters: one was against 9 kobolds, the other against 6 humans and 3 Guard Drakes. The combats all were awesome, not only because of the power system, but also because of the number of enemies, forcing us to take some tactical decisions. This was made possible by minions, which are (if you don't know) monsters designed to fall in one blow (1hp), with 4 of them counting as 1 monster of the appropriate CR.

I really want to try this minion system, however, I don't know how balanced it would be...

For example, would these two encounters be as challenging (EL5)?

1- 2 Hobgoblin archers (Rgr1) with 2 Hobgoblin fighters in front of them (Ftr1) to block the way

2- 2 Hobgoblin archers (Rgr1) with 8 Hobgoblin fighters to block the way (Ftr1 with 1 hp)

Basically, it allows you to have high numbers of enemies without making them so weak they won't touch anything. For example, a 9th level party enters a large room.

In the room are 16 enemies. to make it an EL9, these 16 enemies are 1st level. At 9th level, the melee PCs probably have AC in the 20s (20 for Rogue/Ranger, 24ish for Cleric/Fighter), which means the NPCs won't hit much.

Moreover, at this level, the PCs won't even make XP for killing first level enemies.

For minions, from what I've understood, you simply take an appropriate enemy, and give it 1HP, and put 4 of them: a minion Ftr4 would still have his +4 BAB and his 3 feats, and actually be able to hit, but he wouldn't survive the first blow.

Has anyone tried to use Minions in 3.5? Do you think they could work? Did I get it absolutely wrong?

[kyoryu]

For minions, from what I've understood, you simply take an appropriate enemy, and give it 1HP, and put 4 of them: a minion Ftr4 would still have his +4 BAB and his 3 feats, and actually be able to hit, but he wouldn't survive the first blow.

Has anyone tried to use Minions in 3.5? Do you think they could work? Did I get it absolutely wrong?

The other aspect of minions is that they do a fixed amount of damage. The intent is to reduce the time spent managing them as much as possible so that you can have more of them without dragging the game down. In 4e terms, since crits just do max damage, this means that minions effectively can't crit. I think that's probably reasonable to do for 3.x minions as well, especially since crits in 3.x can do more damage than a regular hit, and the Law of Large Numbers suggests that if you throw lots of minions at a party, eventually one of them will get a nasty crit.

[The_Ditto]

1- Magic items give new abilities: I remember reading from this game designer who said that giving someone a ring that gives you +2 Str is kinda meh, but giving that same person a ring that allows him to Rage 1/day will probably be seen as pretty darn awesome. It's how our mind works: new abilities are shinier than improving those that exist.


Unfortunately this isn't what I've found, I've found that I tend to avoid most anything that is "1/day". Even if they seem cool, powerful, or whatever, being able to only use it 1/day? meh, pass.
Now, 1/encounter? Ok, sign me up!

Other than that, agreed, different, interesting abilities are usually more fun than just a static bump to some stat. (although that static bump will likely be taken more often by the optimizers :P )



2- High hit points at 1st level: In 1E and 2E, first level was like any other: you rolled your HD, and if you rolled 1, well, good luck. In 3E, you have max HP for your first level. In 4E, you have some really high number (10-20 from what I saw) + your Con SCORE (not modifier, score). Therefore, my Avenger had 30HP at first level, and I mean, that's not particularly incredible.


Agreed, long before 4th ed, our group did a 3.5 campaign where the DM started us as 1st level characters with the following rules:
- 1 class level normally.
- 1 NPC class (ie adept, warrior, etc).
Total HP, BaB, Skills, saves, etc.
But you are still considered level 1. Ie the NPC class does not count against our level, XP, etc.

It was fun, worked well, we had more HP (max from both) at 1st level, so less low-level auto-death, more skills to play with (but still the max ranks 4, etc. since level 1), and some interesting back story thoughts to "justify" the NPC class.

Looking at it, not too far from 4th editions HP start, and Background/themes :)



3- Minion monsters: Yesterday, our 6 man party ran 2 combat encounters: one was against 9 kobolds, the other against 6 humans and 3 Guard Drakes. The combats all were awesome, not only because of the power system, but also because of the number of enemies, forcing us to take some tactical decisions. This was made possible by minions, which are (if you don't know) monsters designed to fall in one blow (1hp), with 4 of them counting as 1 monster of the appropriate CR.


Yep, I love minions, great concept, although, they can get ripped through "too fast" by some parties without much thought.



I really want to try this minion system, however, I don't know how balanced it would be...

For example, would these two encounters be as challenging (EL5)?

1- 2 Hobgoblin archers (Rgr1) with 2 Hobgoblin fighters in front of them (Ftr1) to block the way

2- 2 Hobgoblin archers (Rgr1) with 8 Hobgoblin fighters to block the way (Ftr1 with 1 hp)


*shrug*
Not sure, try it out with a "test combat" with your group.



For minions, from what I've understood, you simply take an appropriate enemy, and give it 1HP, and put 4 of them: a minion Ftr4 would still have his +4 BAB and his 3 feats, and actually be able to hit, but he wouldn't survive the first blow.


Not exactly.

Minions have 2 things different happening to them:
- 1 hp.
- static dmg output.
- typically 1 attack mode, perhaps 2.
- typically single target attacks - rarely area effects, etc.
- rarely special effects, ie ongoing, daze effects, etc.

Keep those in mind, and sure, it's fairly simple to "convert" almost anything into a minion.
- 1 hp
- static dmg (use avg roll) - make sure it's not "too much" (how? *shrug*)
- remove most special effects, the minion is just a very basic version of that monster, so keep the very basic, "iconic" stuff from it.



Has anyone tried to use Minions in 3.5? Do you think they could work? Did I get it absolutely wrong?

Nope, not yet.

[Starbuck_II]

Has anyone tried to use Minions in 3.5? Do you think they could work? Did I get it absolutely wrong?

I do point buy for my "minions" dump con to boost atack or defense stats (since minions have good hit/damage values) just not hp.

Kobolds work best if dump con (2 hps with 5 con, 7 con lowest point buy but -2 from race).

[GenghisDon]

4e DOES have some interesting ideas to steal for any game.

I've used "minions" in 1e, but not so far for 3.5e. It's quite do-able however.