Party Issues, Need Advice

[Karoht]

So my thursday game.
There is myself, there is a DM, there are 4 other players.

Sadly, I've been missing session due to work, and likely won't be back at the table for the next few weeks. But that isn't the issue.


The DM openly stated at the beginning of the campaign that he is going to try and challenge us. We all knew that going in, though I don't think anyone paid much attention to this warning.
The first two sessions went extremely well. I wouldn't call the encounters hard, but apparently the CR was higher than we normally face at level 3. Still, we muddled through.
Then the next session I was gone. DM took that into account, and claims to have adjusted the encounters.
First, the party of level 3's fought some kind of Swamp Hag. And it darn near killed them.
Next, they fought some plants that had con drain. And it darn near killed them. Party got pretty darned mad at that encounter.

A week later, they arrive at and enter the dungeon. This is where things start getting dicey.
The DM openly stated that the majority of the dungeon is CR 1 and 2 encounters and creatures. There is a single CR7 creature in the dungeon. Don't face it until you feel you are ready. Don't face it unless you've rested. Feel free to run away if you accidently happen upon it.

The CR7 creature in question was an Aboleth. Against a party of 4 level 3's, that places it as an Epic encounter (going by the Pathfinder CR table), but not outside their capability. I should also point out that the party has probably about 30%-50% additional Wealth by Level.

Suffice to say, the moment they encountered it, after a few previous encounters that ate up a bunch of spells, they went right for it. The Aboleth managed to Dominate one party member, and ordered it to run away, somehow the party member chose not to. With only one party member left standing, the Aboleth tried to PAY the party to leave. This would have left the party with 1 member to res, would have paid for most of the res, and kept the party intact.
They pushed on, regardless. And lost.

So 2 party members out of the 4 died. I'm not entirely sure how the other two got away.

Cue the Butthurt.
The arguements from the party?
-The CR was too high.
-We couldn't run away.
-We should never have to run away.
-We didn't have a chance to spend our gold.
-We didn't have a chance to rest first.
-It used Dominate on us, that wasn't fair.


This is the sort of thing that happens whenever an encounter beats them. Rather than learn from it or think on what they might have done differently, they complain. Loud and angry.
They've walked away from some basic encounters and looked quite a mess.


So I return to the table in a few weeks, but I will see these players several times between now and then. Any advice I should offer the players? Any advice you can offer me going back in?

[King Atticus]

Any advice I should offer the players?

I would advise that they quit blaming other people for the choices they make. It sounds like the DM has been a straight shooter and telling them exactly what they are going to face and when they should face it. Funny how when they didn't take his warning seriously all of a sudden it's his fault. No...that sounds like it's on them. Tell them to pick themselves up, dust themselves off, treat it as a lesson learned, quit whining about life being unfair and get back to playing the game and having fun.

[Karoht]

I would advise that they quit blaming other people for the choices they make. It sounds like the DM has been a straight shooter and telling them exactly what they are going to face and when they should face it. Funny how when they didn't take his warning seriously all of a sudden it's his fault. No...that sounds like it's on them. Tell them to pick themselves up, dust themselves off, treat it as a lesson learned, quit whining about life being unfair and get back to playing the game and having fun.

Yeah, that point was made several times, with the rebuttal of 'but then if we weren't supposed to fight it, it should not have been there'

They are doing rather a lot to shift the blame away from themselves.

Any ideas on how I can get them to see some sense in this?

[ima donkey]

IMO the DM's job is to make the game fun for everyone. If the players asked to be challenged then that's fine but I guess i have some sympathy for them because I've had some VERY bad DM's. The problem with making things harder is you get too much money and things quickly become too easy. I also have had some problems with the DM getting mad because we kill his monster that he liked too much, then he says we are too strong and makes us remake our whole party in the middle of a module but that's not really related to this.

[Flickerdart]

Yeah, that point was made several times, with the rebuttal of 'but then if we weren't supposed to fight it, it should not have been there'

They are doing rather a lot to shift the blame away from themselves.

Any ideas on how I can get them to see some sense in this?
What of their quest giver? He is there, but they are not supposed to fight him. Same goes for merchants, or the peasants on the street.

[Karoht]

I don't think it's about the DM's big bad monsters. He's extremely pleased if the party kills something. Anything. Even if it is something they shouldn't kill.


Upfront the DM did say he was going to be challenging. I would suggest that you are correct, the party doesn't want to be challenged. Were I a less mature fellow I would suggest that their ideal encounter is an endless corridor of CR 1/2 orcs.
I get winning is fun, but winning at something that is actually a challenge is fun too.

Still, I get the feeling that the party is coming from that exact philosophy. It's the DM's job to make it fun, losing isn't fun, even if it's their fault, ergo the DM is doing it wrong.


Right, so what do I (and I guess the DM too) do about it?

[Steward]

I don't like that solution either. Even if some of the players really would enjoy that kind of campaign (no challenging encounters, no monsters that can't be killed in two rounds or less), I don't see you or the DM enjoying something like that. And if you don't, then that's still a problem. It's the DM's job to make the game fun for everyone (not just 3/4ths of the players), but the party members share some responsibility. The DM is also playing the game in a sense and he shouldn't be bored out of his skull too.

[ceduct]

I get the feeling that the party is coming from that exact philosophy. It's the DM's job to make it fun, losing isn't fun, even if it's their fault, ergo the DM is doing it wrong.


Tell them to pick themselves up, dust themselves off, treat it as a lesson learned

give them a link to this page

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Explain to them that not every "monster" is some evil thing deserving of death, and that there's no reason for them to go through a ruin murdering everything that crosses their paths just like they shouldn't walk through a forest murdering every cuddly animal that they find or walk through a city street murdering every peasant that doesn't have the good sense to get out of their way. If a creature is acting threatening and is clearly hostile then there's a fight coming, but if there's a highly intelligent creature that's far more powerful than the rest of the denizens of a given location then it's probably got something to say (other than, "Die!") to a party of adventurers who prove capable of reaching it.

[Greyfeld85]

Play Chutes and Ladders until they decide they're willing to play something more challenging.

[Karoht]

give them a link to this pageYeah, I somehow doubt that will go over well. Actually, I might link the DM to the conversation, come to think of it.


Play Chutes and Ladders until they decide they're willing to play something more challenging.Man, don't tempt me.


I've told the DM that when the party goes back to fight that Aboleth again (which now has two party members worth of gear and is probably going to change tactics to play even more dirty), if they choose to fight it when they aren't ready for it, he should just end the session right there and then. Pack up his stuff, don't say a word other than maybe facepalm, and go home. Try again the next week.

I doubt he'll do it. If I were in his shoes I would.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I ran my party through a gauntlet of CON damage/drain enemies at level 1.

Send them my way. :smallamused:

[Menteith]

This is not the DM's fault, based on the information that you've provided. They handled it as well as they could have, given the circumstances. A challenging encounter is always going to run the risk of a TPK, if it's handled poorly by the party. And this party handled it very poorly - they had good reason to suspect that the fight was going to be too much for them in their current state, and refused to alter their playstyle.

Going back in, I would advise you to learn exactly what each player wants out of the game. Some players honestly do just want to run a low challenge game that allows them to crush opposition, and will get annoyed when they suffer even minor setbacks. There's nothing wrong with that style of play, so long as everyone's clear on what they want from a game, and what the game is offering. If they say that they want a challenging game, and act like this when faced with a challenge, then they'll need to work out their issues themselves. Discuss what everyone wants before the next session, and eitherhave the DM alter the game/not run that adventure if the players refuse to change position, or more hopefully, have the players come to terms with the idea that they're going be faced with actual challenges. Work it out out of game.

[GenghisDon]

damn, another lost post. This forum does that quite often.

Ah well.

That is so pathetic. Good luck.

[Batou1976]

Still, I get the feeling that the party is coming from that exact philosophy. It's the DM's job to make it fun, losing isn't fun, even if it's their fault, ergo the DM is doing it wrong.



One wonders why they think the DM's job is to "make it fun no matter what". It isn't. :smallconfused: It sounds like they're meatheads who need to be bookslapped.

I say that because from what you've said about them so far, they don't sound AT ALL like reasonable, rational people. I really don't think there's any way you and your DM CAN get them to see sense. Sorry, man. :smallfrown:

[Thump]

A few things I'd like to say for my 2 cents;

Your party members are just plain stupid. I mean, the thing tried to PAY them to leave. That should have been the clue to get the hell away from there, even if it meant sucking up the fact that they lost an encounter.

Second of all, this is more of a question; How high powered was this campaign? Under no circumstances does one simply throw an Aboleth at a 4-man normal-powered APL 3 party. The fact that it has a Will save DC 22 dominate monster 3/day means that it could have just spammed that on the Will-save sucky party members and then proceed to chew up the squishies, entirely in character with a +10 to hit and 1d8+5 to each tentacle, which it has four of... The DM did warn them ahead of time, but an Aboleth? A little bit overkill.

Third of all, I think DM needs to have a chat with the players. They evidently sound like a bunch of meatheads, which, I sort of was when I started out. I would freak out over ability damage, when we were level 3. I soon learned the art of learning to deal with it, or getting creative.


For a little bit of advice to the DM; look carefully at the monsters you plan to throw at the party. An Elasmosaurus was thrown at my party at 3rd level, also CR 7, even though there were six of us, and we managed to completely destroy it in a single round, thanks to our lucky elven ranger with her freakin' bow crits and my greataxe putting it into the single digits in one hit thanks to another crit, but if we went against an Aboleth, we would have been worse than demolished.


For instance, encounter VS an Elasmosaurus

Roll initiative, and the Elasmosaurus gets one or two good hits in before being killed by my party. Note that this thing is an animal.

VS Aboleth, however...

Aboleth has 15 INT. It has, entirely in character, a mind similar to that of a wizard's when planning. It could do the following;

Win initiative thanks to it's +5 compared to the meatshield's likely +1 to 3, and then Dominate him. Proceed to send it after squishiest member of party, and duck under the water.

If this were my character (AKA, since for our very first characters, we got max hit points + another HD roll + CON,), he had something along the lines of 50-60 HP at level 3, with a +9 to hit thanks to STR and bonuses. He would immediately go after the rogue (She had 13 HP due to bad HP rolls and no CON bonus) and put her into negatives instantly.

You see where this is going?



Yeah, the players were complete :smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:faces, but the DM could also have taken a closer look at his monsters.







Just my extremely long-post 2cents.

[Acanous]

<-Is DM

The party was actually level 4 when they encountered the Aboleth. Not that it really matters, I expected them to be 5-7. They chased down a fleeing enemy (From the Bathroom encounter, where they walked in and killed 3/4 orcs and a deep orc with Create Pit while one was in the can and the other four were waiting, during the surprise round.) and said enemy ran to the boss. (I did not expect them to *Fly* after the orc, as that would split the party, and yeah.)

One of the players actually requested that the boss to this dungeon be an Aboleth. I asked if he was sure and gave him a week to think about it while I populated the dungeon.

Mainly it was because the last time I was DMing (A swamp adventure) there was an Aboleth that wiped a lv 7 party, and after a few years of playing experience, (And another DM not knowing how to use an Aboleth leading to a very easy win for the party in another session) he wanted another crack at it.

So I put the Aboleth in an underground river, with a secret passage under the water on the north side of the river. He Hallucinatory Terrain'd the river to look like a hallway, Programmed Image a couple of trolls in the hallway, Veil'd himself to look like an ogre, and then Project Image'd himself so he'd be up there with the trols, while his actual body stayed, invisible, in the secret passage (Which was, of course, blocked by an Illusory Wall.)

The Aboleth just sat down there spamming dominate on anyone who fell into the water (and into his LoS/LoE) until he ran out, then used Hypnotic Pattern and Major Image to seperate and confound the party. Then he went after them one at a time, taking advantage of his reach and illusions to keep them from knowing where, exactly, he was.

The Aboleth didn't engage the party at first, when I asked them to roll for initiative they had 2-3 rounds in an "empty" hallway with a ranting (And soon dead) orc while the Aboleth prepped all his illusions. It treated them as a serious threat what had trespassed on it's domain.
(The orc was speaking Undercommon, telling the Aboleth about the party. From what it had seen in half a round, then while being chased.)

The Petal died and really couldn't have been saved unless the party decided to retreat during one of the first six rounds of "Combat". She got abandoned by the melee, the Aboleth had her pegged as a caster, and she'd shrugged off a dominate. Then she went into the water.
The cleric who died, he had every opportunity to leave. Seperated from the party, he ended up near an exit, and the Aboleth sort of ignored him for 3 or so rounds. After it had scared off the rest of the party, it went over and offered to pay him to leave. He attacked it instead.

Just to clarify here, the party's objective in this dungeon was not "Fight an Aboleth", it was "Capture a Troll". They encountered a troll first thing, and chose to continue afterward, killing the troll instead of subduing it. (After reducing it to negatives, they decided to acid splash it and continue on, in the hopes of more, bigger trolls later on.)

There ere two warnings about the Aboleth in-character, One was that the trolls seemed "Slimy, in poor health, and sallow", and the other was a vial of aboleth mucous as part of a treasure.

Their quest-giver, by the way, is a lv 20 sorceror who can't leave his city because of a high-level-mage war. (Yeah, he's actually on his own demiplane, astral projecting and plane shifted, and using a simulacrum to talk to the party, but meh, details)
They have a nigh-unlimited timeframe to collect the creatures the sorceror wants, as it's mostly for an experiment of his in eugenics, not something that can be done when you return mcguffin A to slot B.
They just... like adventuring every day and resting little. I'm not sure why they don't take advantage of the down time, as in other campaigns we get so precious little of it.

Anyhow, they went back for the Aboleth and I gave them a hallway with 200 orcs. They've got through 138 orcs, and seem pretty happy about it. I'll see where it goes next week.

Edit: As for the party, they're running on 37 point buy, and have been given a heck of a lot of treasure. Most are using +2 weapons, except that one guy who has 8 +1 weapons instead. (Note, I did not suggest they blow all this money on ++ weapons, I suggested buying spells, wonderous items, etc. But they like bigger numbers)
The average party member AC is 24, and +7 is the lowest to-hit in the party.

At this point, however, there's only one spellcaster, and no full-casters in the group. Because the cleric decided to suicide instead of walking away. He Rerolled Rogue.

[ThiagoMartell]

Yet another example of carebear players complaining because bad things happened to them.

[only1doug]

Whoah, Acanous sounds like one of the most easy going GMs I've ever heard of.

I'd love him to GM for me. (My regular GM likes 24 point buy and tries to maintain WBL)

[Kelb_Panthera]

Preface: my advice is usually more long-winded and tactful than this.

Tell them to suck it up, and stop whining. If you do stupid things, it's usually going to hurt.

[Batou1976]

Whoah, Acanous sounds like one of the most easy going GMs I've ever heard of.

I'd love him to GM for me. (My regular GM likes 24 point buy and tries to maintain WBL)


Ancanous sounds similar to me, except I do try to stick to WBL. Back in my 2E days I made the mistake of giving a bit too much treasure, so these days I'm careful to not let PCs have too much.

[Vizzerdrix]

What of their quest giver? He is there, but they are not supposed to fight him. Same goes for merchants, or the peasants on the street.

Hey now, peasants are ALWAYS worth fighting (they drop farmland as tasty loot!) :smallbiggrin:

[Mithril Leaf]

Tell them to suck it up, I'd give anything for another DM like Acanous. My current DM is pretty similar and his game is awesome. If you've got the sense to optimize at all or just acknowledge the optimization-fu of anyone in the party, you shouldn't have trouble taking out monsters a few CRs above you as the regular encounter. This was clearly a high power campaign with every player making some stupid decision. Entirely in character, I probably would have murdered the other survivors and made peace with the Aboleth.

[Acanous]

I probably would have murdered the other survivors and made peace with the Aboleth.

That is an entirely valid option.

I give more treasure because I expect the players to use more charge items, or single-use items. I try to make my encounters creative. You CAN slog through them, but it's generally not the best idea. I preffer to think of D&D combat like a puzzle. You solve it, gain XP, and move on.

There's a stigma among players against single-use or non-rechargable items, because they're expensive and you can get that ability in a couple levels, anyhow. I like seeing wands and necklaces of fireballs in play. The latter is bloody useless after level 5 or so.

I like them having options, and not having to worry about money management too much. (Money management might be fun for some, but noooot for others :p)
If you make wise choices, or do creative, unexpected things, you end up saving money and earning more in the process. Poor choices, you lose money and HP.
Of course, I'm also partial to ability damage, curses, diseases, and other afflictions that cost GP to cure. Most players hate this, but I find it makes the combats mean more. Giving such a high point-buy is a buffer against that sort of thing in the low levels. I busted out the first con-damage enemies at 3.
I've been giving more gold since then to ensure they have means to prevent or negate it.

Of course, I can't straight up tell them "The next few encounters will involve ability damage", but giving them a warning like a fort-save or STR damage trap should have been enough warning there.

Should be OK though. They're going to get 10,000 XP for the orcs, which'll ding the whole party. No treasure though, aside from the falchions. That's in trapped chests further in :p

[Ranting Fool]

Yet another example of carebear players complaining because bad things happened to them.

hehe.

@ DM: You told them there was a big bad monster in there. you dominated one to run away (rather then say kill his friends)? you tried to bribe them to run away from the monster? and they are upset that they lost? *Sigh*

I have often stated in my games that the PC's may "Face challenges that they haven't a snowballs hope in hell of beating in a fight" and that sometimes it is best to back away. Like the time an Elder Red dragon drops down, taunts them, then gets into a fight with an Elder Gold Dragon. What follows went something along the lines of.

The NPC's go "Quick! Now's our chance to run!!!!!"
one PC goes "No! If we attack the Red the Gold will owe us"
NPC "You're mad! We must flee, you could not hope to hurt such a beast, the second it notices you, you'd die"
PC to DM "I cast True Strike" then "I throw my great sword at the Red Dragon"
Me (DM) "*sigh* the rest of you are doing? ah right you are running for your lives" *Sword flies heroic style and DOES hurt the dragon for a tiny amount*
Me "What's your AC? ah right the Red Dragon's tail swings round with such force knocking your lifeless body flying"
PC "That is SO unfair!"
Me: *face palm*

yes the whole encounter was rather railroady but meant to set up a major point in the plot. I never thought the PC's would try and join in with the fight. I have since learned my lesson :smallbiggrin: the PC's will ALWAYS do the most suicidal action when facing an unbeatable foe!

[DoughGuy]

Just today I had a DnD session where half the party (including me) ended up against a huge (size) fiendish minotaur of some sort (not exactly sure what it was). I was standing on a buildings roof and the first turn it casually backhanded me for 35 damage. I have 61 hp. Me and the other guy cast invis on ourselves and run. We were playing gestalt.
Moral: Running away works, and not all PCs are suicidal :smalltongue:
Besides there was no way it had anything worth looting on it xD

I agree that the OPs party should have handled it better. You warned them and did everything you could to save them. Acanous you sound like a great DM and that adventure sounds pretty damn cool.

[Edenbeast]

-We should never have to run away.

That one made me laugh. An attitude like that will definitely result in death at some point. Any PC who doesn't consider running away, should be made aware of this option as soon as possible.
DRAGON!? Run away or be toasted.. Oh but how we like to BBQ

[Mithril Leaf]

*Stuff*

What would you have done if they managed to kill it? I'm curious, because as a shaper psion, I love to have dragons around. Low touch AC and no poison immunity make them super tasty.

For the DM of the topic, remember to keep in mind that sometimes players do in fact have aces up their sleeves, something you've overlooked. Be ready to deal with them winning just in case.

[only1doug]

What would you have done if they managed to kill it? I'm curious, because as a shaper psion, I love to have dragons around. Low touch AC and no poison immunity make them super tasty.

For the DM of the topic, remember to keep in mind that sometimes players do in fact have aces up their sleeves, something you've overlooked. Be ready to deal with them winning just in case.

Unfortunately every monster in the world has gained poion immunity, because someone made a 1 trick pony and party instant wins are boring for the GM, given a choice of making every monster irrelevent or just making your character irrelevent he chose you, feel special?

[Mithril Leaf]

Unfortunately every monster in the world has gained poion immunity, because someone made a 1 trick pony and party instant wins are boring for the GM, given a choice of making every monster irrelevent or just making your character irrelevent he chose you, feel special?

I'm not saying I'd use it all the time, but people often overlook a party's ability to kill things that they normally shouldn't be able to. Plus, I'm primarily a necromancer and summoner, poison is just a handy perk :smallcool:. It's nice to have a backup when things get out of hand.

[Ranting Fool]

What would you have done if they managed to kill it? I'm curious, because as a shaper psion, I love to have dragons around. Low touch AC and no poison immunity make them super tasty.


It was over a year ago, closer to two. Party was only A Fighter/Rogue/Bloodtracker guy. Sorcerer 1/barbarian guy ( the one who likes to die) and a favoured soul. They were only level 5-7 vs a CR 20ish monster (Granted it WAS fighting another one of the same size)

If they had managed to hurt it up to 50% it would have ran (Big Dragons having lots of spells and such and the party couldn't fly) though I learned my lesson. I now ALWAYS have a plan/am aware that the PC's might suprise me and kill off anyone.

I've always believed that creatures with int higher then 4 will often chose to flee if it is a random encounter in the wilderness, unless psyco / trapped. If the monster has no strong reason for wanting the PC's dead other then "Hey tastey loot things just walked into my forrest"

I'd also like to point out that the PC's were warned that the "Dragon Wastes" are a death sentice and while people do go in there to raid all the old cities and tombs and such 90% of them die horrid horrid deaths.

[Acanous]

I don't give my monsters random immunities to counter the players. If the party does abuse one trick too often, though, inteligent enemies will start to hear about it and take precautions.
Random encounters, though, won't.

a Great Wyrm anything, though, would be rather stunted if he didn't wear his horde as magic items.

[Acanous]

OK, so the party went back for the Aboleth. After fighting the horde of 200 orcs, dealing with about 7 different traps, looting 4 or 5 chests full of treasure (One containing their old characters' equiptment), and levelling to 6.

They got to rolling initiative before running away.
This time, the Aboleth knew who they were and where (Because Dominating an orc gives you some sensory input) and prepped just for them. Programmed image of one of them dying, phantasmal terrain to make the area look like a staircase, major image, illusionary wall. It looked like a dark stairwell with no water in it. In reality it was that same underground lake.

Party walks into the stairwell, get will saves. Orc Barbarian makes his, says there's water. People don't believe him, walk into the water. Now they're in the water with the Aboleth. He Dominates the goblin summoner. No instructions as of yet. Next round while they argue, he Veil's the goblin into an Invisible Stalker while a Programmed Image of the Goblin dying on the spot goes off.
Party suspects Phantasmal killer, group up. Barbarian has to save VS dominate, fails. Two of the party now dominated, so instructions start. New will saves, fail. Party turns against itself.
Then initiative gets rolled.

Being that the Aboleth had the barbarian and the only spellcaster, it was very quickly over, with a total rout. Then it made them drop their gold and some gear, and leave. Leave for 16 days.

They killed so many orcs, soldiered through so many traps, and got so much friggin' loot. But still can't beat that Aboleth.
I have suggested they buy some items to give them Water Breathing, Freedom of Movement and True Seeing, but they don't want to blow money on one-shot items just to beat the Aboleth.

Will post again when they've hit Level>CR. Hopefully they'll put a plan together.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Wow........ are these guys just plain stupid or what? Aboleths are one of the most dangerous creatures at their CR, and they've lost to it twice now. The only reason they're even alive is because this is the single nicest aboleth that's ever lived. If they come back...... kill them. Kill them with extreme prejudice. Three strikes and you're out, ya know.

Edit: I just realized how harsh that sounds....... kill them anyway. I have very little sympathy for people that do stupid things.

[only1doug]

Drop them a hint to read the effect of protection from Alignment spells....


Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the protection from evil effect. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm)

L1 spell = immunity to dominate.

[Acanous]

Last time they were in town, they bought two Golembane Scarabs.

Don't ask me why, I have no idea.

I suppose they may be trying something in town (Being set in the Tipyverse, the muscle of the Police force is Stone Golems, so there's that.)
but there's been no indication of such so far. Unless they're plotting behind my back, which would be cool. A curveball like that would make my day, I'm honestly wondering how they'd intend to take on a lv 20 Sorceror and his army of golems, in that case.

But seriously. Two golembane scarabs, and they won't pay for a scroll of Mind Blank, True Seeing, Potion of Water Breathing, or Freedom of Movement.
Give those buffs to the Barbarian, and the Aboleth would just die. Seriously, dude's got 36 STR, an AC of 30 (28 Raging, 26 Frenzied, 24 on a charge [assuming pounce]) and 85 HP. (plus Rage/Frenzy bonus HP). He'd just dice up the Aboleth in a single round. His average damage is 43, and he'd get two attacks.

The party KNOWS this, I've pointed it out, but they really don't want to pay the cash for single-use items. Figure that it's not worth that much effort.

They decided to go on a side-quest to capture some Lycanthropes until they've got enough cash to try against the Aboleth a third time. I'm really hoping they mean to purchase some single-shot items like the ones stated above. One of the party members is staying in town and crafting, two are out questing in the wilds, and one is in the town doing roleplay things.
Next time they go for the Aboleth, they'll be level 7 or possibly higher. If they approach it again without being serious, it'll kill them.

As far as recurring enemies go, though, this thing's doing a very good job of getting them motivated, and running on the first round shows they've become properly cautious about it. No party member has even *Seen* the thing, yet, and they don't actually know IC what it is.
That's actualy pretty difficult to do, make them feel awesome and heroic while still giving them something chalenging that requires serious thought and expense to defeat. I'm going to have to put a lot of thought into the Air-troll blind Oracle I intend to be the next boss, if they actually beat the Aboleth.

Edit: Yes, Protection from Alignment pots would make for a much easier time, are cheap enough that everyone can have one, and I'll have the Sorceror they work for bring it up when they bring back those Lycanthropes.

[vrigar]

You know, it doesn't seem like you're playing D&D.
I mean, one of the players requests the "boss" monster (maybe you're playing Mario Brothers?) and the DM states what CR the monsters will have. I read through the posts and it seems like a half solid adventure concept behind it but there rest sounds like you're playing "Kill the monsters and level up".
There are other ways to solve that problem plausibly but it seems like you're trying to solve the wrong problem. Usually players who are emotionally invested with their characters don't throw them recklessly at the meanest monster around.
Just saying.

[Acanous]

There is a good ammount of roleplay going on, I've just glossed over the RP elements, as that's not presenting any difficulty. The Goblin Summoner, for example, is from an outlying goblin village that likes to waylay travellers. He has a thing for devouring the eyes of his kills (they're the best part) and he's risen to become cheif of his tribe (Although that doesn't actually provide much in a dungeon, goblins are rather cowardly- but it gives him a place to sleep, dedicated crafters, trackers, and access to other NPC's for free) after singlehandedly killing a werebear.
The Half-Celestial monk is Kyankekee's champion of the arena, who wears wizardly garb and employs a number of alchemical items, as well as owning things like a spellbook and spell component pouch, in order to throw her opponents off into believing she's a wizard. She spends most of her free time studying various areas of knowledge, but also honing her body.
The Kobold Rogue is a trapsmith who makes his living by capturing dangerous animals, and he hates actually being involved in combat. He likes to hide from most things bigger than himself, but makes friendly with other small creatures, like the party's goblin summoner.
The Half-Fiend Blood orc is playing kill monsters and level up.

Many of the encounters so far have been RP based, like the werebear tribe. (it was supposed to be a difficult decision, weather to capture one of the L/G werebears who had helped the party and shared food and shelter, or let them go and lose out on the reward. The party ambushed 'em in their sleep :/)

Anyhow, I do admit I've been playing with the kid gloves for the most part. My orc slaves, for example, have been using "Poor quality" Falchions (1d8 damage, 20*2 crit range) and a number of the encounters have been things like "Party ambushes orcs in a bathroom", "Party ambushes goblins having supper" etc.
The Aboleth in particular is about as jarring as waterboarding the party after a day at disneyland.

There ARE boss monsters in the game, just as there's a boss in most real-life situations. Kyankekee is the boss of Underburrow(City), the Aboleth is the boss of the gem mines. The goblin party member is the boss of a small goblin tribe. You always have someone in charge, and in almost every situation they're going to have more resources than the people under them.
In a fantasy setting, they're also going to be in better health, usually stronger and better educated, as well.
I don't see the problem with the terminology here.

Edit: To inject some of the Roleplay I've had, there was a hook where Duke Marsis expressed some displeasure over Kyankekee's selection of champion, but he quickly kowtowed to the sorceror. This is, of course, because the duke doesn't have the power to challenge the gnome, but he disagrees with some of the policies around town.
Also, the place is a little more than Dystopian. Most of the population is kept oppressed and distracted. There's a colloseum to sate their dissatisfication, and while the general public have their basic needs met, most have never actually seen the sun, and are treated like property.
(That has not been followed up on by the party)
Then there's Kyankekee's plan. He's big into Eugenics. If you've read up on the Emerald Legion, you'd get the gist of his plan for conquest. He's Chaotic Evil, masquerading as some form of neutral. Most of the party thinks of him as a pretty good guy, because he's the one backing them, but there've been some pretty...sick hints that something's not right. Like when that werebear they captured was next seen, he'd become female and was being used as a *Ahem* Breeder for the project.

The players think the Gnome is just a pervert.
There's layers and reasoning behind the plot, it's just going to take time to be explored.

[Blind Orc]

So, is there a reason the aboleth let them go?

If there is not, you should make one. Otherwise your just letting your players do whatever they want.

[vrigar]

Seems like you out a lot of time and effort into this campaign and it will be a shame to have it bungled by game mechanics and/or inexperienced players. This sort of an adventure needs continuity of characters (otherwise the newcomers have to come up with weirder and weirder reasons to join) so you need some kind of means to enhance the PCs' ability to survive.
There are plenty of ways to do that without breaking the suspense of disbelief and in your case I'd leave the "wise NPC" option out because the PCs will probably resent it.
Maybe you can go with some automatic raise dead with some artifact or whatever.

[Marlowe]

This...is a disturbing thread. This monster has the patience of a saint.

[JKTrickster]

Actually yeah why does the Aboleth let them go? :smallconfused:

[Acanous]

I'm AFB and AFN at the moment, so I can't remember the term, but there's a magic item property on a sword.
Kyankekee gave the party a magical, +2 sword when they started the adventure, part of the parcel of them being his personal enforcers.
This sword has a special property- whenever a certain spell is cast at the sword, or at the sword's weilder, that spell is instead absorbed by the sword, and the weilder can cast it as a free action afterward.
The spell keyed to that sword is Wish.

So it's worth something like 100,000 GP.
The players haven't done that much damage around the Aboleth's lair. They've killed a bunch of orc slaves, yeah, but they've also dropped equiptment and gold, including that sword, and it's actually still in the black. (Because two adventurers have died, and two had to empty out all their gold, all in it's lair.)

So far, the Aboleth has been in no danger from these incursions. It's been making cash. Why wouldn't it let them leave and come back? They don't seem to have access to True Seeing, they're very easilly defeated by dominate monster, they have no Swim speed.

If there was an annoying person who came to your house every 2 weeks, made a mess, broke some furniture, and dropped a few grand in your bedroom, would you beat the tar out of him, or start shopping at Ikea?

Well, the Aboleth decided to do the latter. When the Adventurers stop being profitable, it'll kill them.

@Vrigar: That's actually taken care of. Kyankekee will hold another arena bout if too many if his current enforcers die, and get a new one that way. Then it's "Here's your fresh meat. Newbie, you're with these guys now."
Which isn't a great thing, as people still lose attatchment to their characters, but it does lend some reality to the campaign. They are the CHOSEN ONES. Chosen, by THAT GUY, who rules the city!...he just chooses new guys when the old ones die.

[Karoht]

In soviet dungeon, aboleth farms you!

[Kelb_Panthera]

Actually yeah why does the Aboleth let them go? :smallconfused:

Because minions are disposable, and it's more fun to toy with them than to kill them outright.

That'd be my guess.

[ThiagoMartell]

Because minions are disposable, and it's more fun to toy with them than to kill them outright.

That'd be my guess.

Or because TPKs are not fun and the DM wanted to avoid it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Or because TPKs are not fun and the DM wanted to avoid it.

That's the ooc reason. I was shooting for something ic. *shrugs*

[Blind Orc]

Hmm.. for in-game, I suggest that it wanted to draw attention from an old enemy, so he left the PCs go, to give out the info that "an aboleth is there". Next time the PCs come back, they are charmed to go directly to said enemy of aboleth. Said enemy finds out and dispels the charm, and invites them to join forces and take revenge with him. :smallbiggrin:

(because we can all see the 5th time coming :smalltongue: )

[Kelb_Panthera]

Hmm.. for in-game, I suggest that it wanted to draw attention from an old enemy, so he left the PCs go, to give out the info that "an aboleth is there". Next time the PCs come back, they are charmed to go directly to said enemy of aboleth. Said enemy finds out and dispels the charm, and invites them to join forces and take revenge with him. :smallbiggrin:

(because we can all see the 5th time coming :smalltongue: )

Deus ex machina? ewww......

That's an 'interesting' idea, but they don't know that the enemy is an aboleth in-character, if I read correctly.

[Blind Orc]

Deus ex machina? ewww......

That's an 'interesting' idea, but they don't know that the enemy is an aboleth in-character, if I read correctly.

Well, telling them out of game what potions/spells they need to use is worse, I think :smalltongue: also I bet the aboleth didn't know they would return the first time, so farming them isn't a good excuse. And offering to pay them to leave only makes it worse.

I don't know, if they haven't figured that out after so many tries, I would start giving exp to the aboleth :smallbiggrin:

[Deepbluediver]

If there was an annoying person who came to your house every 2 weeks, made a mess, broke some furniture, and dropped a few grand in your bedroom, would you beat the tar out of him, or start shopping at Ikea?

That's frackin' genius.

I'm picturing the aboleth starting an "adventurer baiting" service: hang out near a town or small city, use illusions and dominate to start rumors of an evil orc/goblin tribe in the area, then sit back and wait for the lowbies to come bearing gifts.
Maybe he'll even expand his services to other monsters.

Aboleth: Hello there, Mr. Adult Black Dragon, what can I help you with today?
Adult Black Dragon: Well, it's kind of personal, but I seem to be having some some adventurer issues. My lair's been raided twice in two months, and I'm worried that my lady-dragon friend will think my "hoard" is too small.
Ab: No problem, we'll get you fixed right up; now what kind of adventurer group do you think you can safely handle?
ABD: Oh, probably 17th or 18th, level, easily!
Ab: Are you sure? There's no need to be reckless about this, I can get you at least 3 lower level groups a month and it adds up quickly. You're lady-friend won't like it if you get turned into a Draco-lich trying to impress her.
ABD: Oh alright, 15th level then, but only because the clerics are so tough to chew.
Ab: Excellent, let me take down your information and I'll have the first group at your doorstep in 10 days or less, or your money back!

[Thump]

Waitwaitwaitwaitwait.

You said one of them was playing a half-fiend BLOOD ORC? As in, this monstrosity?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/orcs/orc-blood

+8 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, -4 Wisdom, -4 Charisma. Blood orcs are brutal and savage.
Darkvision: Blood orcs can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Scent: Blood orcs can detect enemies and other creatures by scent. Ferocity Light Sensitivity
Natural Weapons: Blood orcs can make a bite (1d4) as a secondary attack.
Special Attacks: Frenzy (see left).
Languages: Blood orcs begin play speaking Common and Orc. Blood orcs with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following languages: Giant, Goblin.

Frenzy (Ex)

Once per day a blood orc who smells or tastes blood during combat may fly into a frenzy in the following round, biting and attacking with its weapons until it or its opponent is dead. It gains +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, and -2 AC. The creature cannot end its frenzy voluntarily.



Dude... if you converted this to 3.5, you'd easily have +2 or 3 LA from the stat adjustments alone. Half-Fiend in Pathfinder is also slightly better than 3.5, so this should not be playable. The will save would suck, yes, but... come on.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.

[Yahzi]

The party KNOWS this, I've pointed it out, but they really don't want to pay the cash for single-use items. Figure that it's not worth that much effort.
Either your party is unbelievably stupid and expects you to molly-coddle them, or,


As far as recurring enemies go, though, this thing's doing a very good job of getting them motivated, and running on the first round shows they've become properly cautious about it.
they are deeply subtle and prolonging the most enjoyable part of the game.

Probably a bit of both.

I think the take away lesson is: every game needs a monster the PCs can't beat, but doesn't kill them. D&D totally is not set up for this; it's all win-or-die, all the dang time. Still, it is the DM's number one task: create a foe too strong for the PCs to beat, because this kind of challenge automatically motivates them.

[Acanous]

Waitwaitwaitwaitwait.

You said one of them was playing a half-fiend BLOOD ORC? As in, this monstrosity?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/orcs/orc-blood

+8 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, -4 Wisdom, -4 Charisma. Blood orcs are brutal and savage.
Darkvision: Blood orcs can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Scent: Blood orcs can detect enemies and other creatures by scent. Ferocity Light Sensitivity
Natural Weapons: Blood orcs can make a bite (1d4) as a secondary attack.
Special Attacks: Frenzy (see left).
Languages: Blood orcs begin play speaking Common and Orc. Blood orcs with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following languages: Giant, Goblin.

Frenzy (Ex)

Once per day a blood orc who smells or tastes blood during combat may fly into a frenzy in the following round, biting and attacking with its weapons until it or its opponent is dead. It gains +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, and -2 AC. The creature cannot end its frenzy voluntarily.



Dude... if you converted this to 3.5, you'd easily have +2 or 3 LA from the stat adjustments alone. Half-Fiend in Pathfinder is also slightly better than 3.5, so this should not be playable. The will save would suck, yes, but... come on.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.

That's the one, it's how he got his STR so high.

So! I don't actually have a name for this Aboleth, or much of a backstory. He was one of a selection of possible bosses that my players picked.
I really didn't know they'd love him so much that he'd become their recurring villain, but it really seems they won't be killing him any time soon.

If you all want to name the Aboleth, or give him some backstory for me, I'll go ahead and incorporate it.
So far, all we know about him is that he lives in an underground lake inside a mountain, fed by meltwater, with a secret exit to a swamp outside.
Also that he has a number of orcish slaves, with some dominated trolls to keep them in line.

[The Redwolf]

Steve the aboleth never really cared much about senseless killing-he just wanted to get rich. All the other aboleths just seemed to want as many slaves as possible for the sake of having slaves, and what's worse is they turned them into these slimy frog-like things. That never appealed to Steve in the least, he just wanted to make some money and live his days out somewhere nice. So, to make his dream a reality he came down from his ancestral aboleth home and started his own surefire scheme to get the cash rolling in. He swam down the underground river channels and set himself up in a small pond at the end of an old cave.

His plan was to get as many evil and semi-weak creatures as possible under his control, steal all of their nice things and hide them underwater back up the river a little bit, leaving the creatures even weaker. He then planned to find a way to broadcast their existence so adventurers would come to kill them. Being weak creatures in great quantity he felt assured that any adventurers that came would be lower level ones looking for treasure and experience, although he didn't figure that in character because that would be metagame. Being low level they were also likely to be unable to see past illusions, so he would set up a trap at the end of the cave using illusions and defeat the adventurers to take their gear. However, he wouldn't kill them unless necessary, because he reasoned that once they had been defeated they were sure to come back, giving him more easy loot.

All the other aboleths back home had told Steve he was crazy and that his plan would never work. Normally, they'd be right, but Steve happened into the one cave near the one town with the one group of adventurers able to actually make his dream a reality, and they were more than happy to unwittingly oblige. Having defeated them twice with minimal casualties, Steve is now considering early retirement. He has a grand amount of low-level loot from all the orcs and assorted generic monsters he keeps luring in, and quite a trove of treasure from the adventurers that played into his plan. If he's lucky he'll generate enough income from the next encounter to leave the cave without a trace, taking his treasure with him, and retire to a nice beach somewhere. Not on the beach of course, because people would try to kill him, but under it, where he can still dominate people and cause all sorts of trouble and laugh.

[The Redwolf]

Obviously there may be bits you need to adjust to keep it consistent with your campaign and plans, but it's my contribution.

[Acanous]

The Aboleth is now named Steve.

[AntiTrust]

The Aboleth is now named Steve.

Because his aboleth born name was so long many humanoids went insane before finishing it so he shortened it

[Acanous]

Of course. In his language, it's a series of burbles, gutteral tones, and subvocal inflection. It is a word from when the gods were young, one so subtle and beautiful, it tears at the minds of lesser creatures what hear it.
In your pathetic dirt-loving tongues, you'll have to settle with Steve.

[TuggyNE]

Of course. In his language, it's a series of burbles, gutteral tones, and subvocal inflection. It is a word from when the gods were young, one so subtle and beautiful, it tears at the minds of lesser creatures what hear it.
In your pathetic dirt-loving tongues, you'll have to settle with Steve.

This is heavily reminiscent of the DDO mindflayer who goes by the name of Fred when among "pathetic lightdwellers".

As such, I fully approve. :smallcool:

[Gavinfoxx]

Next time they go in, they should find the cave empty, and see a note in Common addressed to each of them (by visual description), thanking them for donating their valuable gear and items so he can have the wealth he needs to relocate, and proving that his adventurer milking scheme was not only viable, but profitable and efficient, and that he is going to retire and they will never see him again.

That would make the players (other than the one who reads started this thread, and seems sane; no spoiling the whiny players!) SO PISSED.

[roguemetal]

So... the party plays d&d like it's a video game apparently...
I've had that share of problems when DMing myself.

Players don't recognize an enemy they won't be able to beat without guile?
There are a number of ways without assaulting the party head on. Give them an NPC that will show them how quickly a character of higher level than the party can be brutally murdered in a single round. See if they step up their game then. The way that you went about it Acanous, by setting up an encounter tailored to their faults, and not letting them adapt to a new style of play before they met this encounter, is an awkward means to force them to play the way you want them to.

I don't care if they're new players, or just generally incompetent, but learning takes time. The training gloves might have been part of the reason for their downfall. Puzzle-based gameplay might also not be appropriate for this group. Give them a more obvious solution if they can't figure it out. Most good in game puzzles have at least three means of being solved, and hints for each one. If someone misses something, something else comes along to point them in a different, but still valid direction. Each one tailored to a different play style. Something for the brutes, something for social characters, something for the mystery solvers.

Also, wanted to mention that the fact the Aboleth is aware of the players presence and their weaknesses should actually impact the CR rating of the encounter. So should the environment of the fight, which is in an illusory space. Even if part of the Aboleth's abilities, if the terrain change exists prior to the player's entry, it adds to the CR. If I place an azer in a room full of hay, have the azer ignite the area and then fight the players, it is no longer a CR2 encounter.

Oh, and why are you hijacking your player's thread?

[Azoth]

Ok, Roguemetal...he didn't railroad or force a single thing. He gave his players many hints, and opportunities to better prepair for the fight...BOTH times. He also warned them not to fight it until ready. One of the players REQUESTED the Aboleth.

The fact that he didn't just slaughter them outright for their stupidity the second time they fought it shows for his capabilities and caring for the characters his at least marginally mentally defficient players made.

In this thread he has stated seval ways for his players to fair better or even trivialize the Aboleth's abilities and kill it. Which at least ONE of his players reads, so lay off the guy.

Personally, I have dealt with such players, and usually it ends with either learning or going through character concepts and resses like no one's business. If you can't keep up, don't step up. Challenging games are meant to be that...a challenge! If the only tactic you know is attack until it/you are dead then you deserve your death...and every one after it.

As you can tell...my kid gloves were burned to ash in the fires of the abyss long ago.

[Arbane]

That's frackin' genius.

I'm picturing the aboleth starting an "adventurer baiting" service: hang out near a town or small city, use illusions and dominate to start rumors of an evil orc/goblin tribe in the area, then sit back and wait for the lowbies to come bearing gifts.
Maybe he'll even expand his services to other monsters.

Aboleth: Hello there, Mr. Adult Black Dragon, what can I help you with today?
(SNIP)

Ab: Excellent, let me take down your information and I'll have the first group at your doorstep in 10 days or less, or your money back!

"In Soviet Underdark, fish baits YOU!" :smallamused:

Hilarious. I presume Steve's usual agents are Mysterious Old Men trying to sell treasure maps in taverns?



I think the take away lesson is: every game needs a monster the PCs can't beat, but doesn't kill them.


It suddenly occurs to me that this whole thing is turning into a Fish Story of the 'One That Got Away' variety. This amuses me mightily.


I ran my party through a gauntlet of CON damage/drain enemies at level 1.

Send them my way. :smallamused:

:smalleek:

What in G'BroagFran's name did they do to deserve THAT?

[only1doug]

Oh, and why are you hijacking your player's thread?

I was gonna jump all over you about this one, saying how the GM is supporting the OP not hijacking (please note that the player invited the GM to participate), then i re-read the OP and realised, this thread wasn't started to discuss the aboleth, it was about coping with his fellow players.

I guess my advice would be to talk to them out of game and discuss tactics and that sometimes discretion is the better part of valour.

[Acanous]

Ever have one of those moments where you spent 15-20 minutes typing out a reply, and the the forum is too busy and eats it?

Anyhow, I'll have to multi-quote to reply to this.


So... the party plays d&d like it's a video game apparently...
I've had that share of problems when DMing myself.

Players don't recognize an enemy they won't be able to beat without guile?
There are a number of ways without assaulting the party head on.
With you so far.

Give them an NPC that will show them how quickly a character of higher level than the party can be brutally murdered in a single round. See if they step up their game then.
Do you mean by ghaving them fight something significantly higher level (Like a golem) that does not use any tact, and can be defeated very easilly by their standard tactics, or do you mean I should run some kind of NPC battle while they watch? I'm rather against the latter, and the former would be just babying the party again.

The way that you went about it Acanous, by setting up an encounter tailored to their faults, and not letting them adapt to a new style of play before they met this encounter, is an awkward means to force them to play the way you want them to.

I have been playing to their strengths quite often. Usually they get surprise on an enemy, the enemy does not expect the party at all much less right now, and the vast majority of their foes, they simply faceroll. The reason the Aboleth is such a problem for them is because it hits them in the faulty tactics.
I did not alter or tailor the Aboleth in any way. Even the area in which they fight it was taken from a modual (Omitted, so the players don't read it :p).

The Aboleth was not a planned encounter on my part. The entire dungeon the thing lives in, they found while exploring. It has nothing to do with the main quest, and is now a player-caused sidequest (Get back the Sword).
Thus, I had to whip it up on the fly.


I don't care if they're new players, or just generally incompetent, but learning takes time. The training gloves might have been part of the reason for their downfall. Puzzle-based gameplay might also not be appropriate for this group. Give them a more obvious solution if they can't figure it out. Most good in game puzzles have at least three means of being solved, and hints for each one. If someone misses something, something else comes along to point them in a different, but still valid direction. Each one tailored to a different play style. Something for the brutes, something for social characters, something for the mystery solvers.
Well, there are multiple ways of dealing with this Aboleth. The players could attempt social interaction with it (It even initiated). They refused. They could spend a little gold and face it head on, with it's abilities nullified (They again do not wish to do so). They could hire a mage in town to Scry on the sword, sneak in past the Aboleth, and retrieve it from the thing's stash. (They have not attempted this yet, despite two of the players having Hide modifiers above +30).
That's at least three ways to solve it. With different playstyles in mind. Alternate methods include Retraining to select blind-fight for the orc (Who could then track the Aboleth by scent. They have a potion of water breathing, and the aboleth itself excretes that save-or-breathe-water mucous), finding the infeed for the underground lake and poisoning the water, hiring a dwarven demolition team and draining the underground lake VIA the side of the mountain...


Also, wanted to mention that the fact the Aboleth is aware of the players presence and their weaknesses should actually impact the CR rating of the encounter. So should the environment of the fight, which is in an illusory space. Even if part of the Aboleth's abilities, if the terrain change exists prior to the player's entry, it adds to the CR. If I place an azer in a room full of hay, have the azer ignite the area and then fight the players, it is no longer a CR2 encounter.

Well, the first time they encountered it, the thing got one free round thanks to the terrified, screaming orc. That caused the illusory space. That says to me that the CR really shouldn't be adjusted, as though the Party had tripped an alarm. The SECOND time, the party had information on the thing they were fighting (It dominates people, uses illusions, is in a room with an aquatic environment) and really could have taken advantage of it. They did not. The Aboleth did not change tactics, it did the exact same things. It didn't even buy any equiptment, it's still straight out of the book.

That said, how would adjusting the thing's CR help solve the problem? They can't beat it, and while I give XP for running from a combat once, I don't give it every time on the same monster. Especially not when they go looking for it.


Oh, and why are you hijacking your player's thread?
Well, not really hijacking. He wanted me to come over and share my thoughts and experiences with the party. The personification of the party's problems is the Aboleth, and this is thusly what I discuss.
Now I just copy this before I hit submit...

Edit:

"In Soviet Underdark, fish baits YOU!" :smallamused:

Hilarious. I presume Steve's usual agents are Mysterious Old Men trying to sell treasure maps in taverns?

This is extremely amusing, as they just bought a treasure map from an old man in a tavern. Seriously.

[hoverfrog]

Have you thought about Steve the Aboleth sending some spies to keep track of the party or the city in general? Perhaps word might get back to the party that someone is asking around about them. If that happens and they catch the spy alive they may be able to remove the hold Steve has over him and get him to spill information about him. That might help and get them to prepare a bit more intelligently.

[Acanous]

That's a rather good idea. Perhaps if, in a couple weeks, the party hasn't returned to the Aboleth lair, Steve will get worried and check in on his investment.

[Karoht]

Oh, and why are you hijacking your player's thread?Yeah, just going to back up Acanous and state that I did invite him to comment here.


In regards to "teaching" the players, I think much of the problem stems from the fact that they don't know that so many other options exist. We were discussing some potions of protection from evil. A great little tool for a wide variety of situations. 400 GP would cover the party easily, and just about trivialize the encounter. The issue is, I don't think they know all of it's effects, so it doesn't occur to them. Let alone the idea of using stealth and doing perhaps some observation or something. And the party is pretty unfamiliar with divination, so scrying is not a tool they understand well.


I should point out though, this is not a new play group. They've been playing 3.5 and pathfinder for a few years now. I think the thing that is crippling them is how much they have pidgeon-holed their own playstyles for so long. One player almost exclusively plays Fireball and Disintgrate specialized sorcerers, to give you an example. Acanous is trying to get them to break some of these poor habits, it seems like it is a struggle between the habits and a DM setting up encounters with *some* of these habits in mind.

[ThiagoMartell]

Am I the only that gets bored when people say someone is incompetent at a roleplaying game? :smallconfused:

[Karoht]

Am I the only that gets bored when people say someone is incompetent at a roleplaying game? :smallconfused:

Well, no one has actually out and out said it, but I'm stuck with these guys and so is acanous. Imagine how we feel for a moment? we don't want to insult our friends, but the stress it puts on us is, well, offensive to us as well.

If you find yourself bored reading it, imagine how bored you might be in our shoes.

[ThiagoMartell]

Well, no one has actually out and out said it, but I'm stuck with these guys and so is acanous. Imagine how we feel for a moment? we don't want to insult our friends, but the stress it puts on us is, well, offensive to us as well.

If you find yourself bored reading it, imagine how bored you might be in our shoes.

You didn't say that, but someone did (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13673305&postcount=62).
I think you guys are actually being pretty polite in your presentation and your complaints.

[Acanous]

Most of these guys have been playing PnP RPG's for a solid 10 years. D&D for at least 5 of those. Karoht has actually the second-least experience in the group, with the least being one player's girlfriend, who'se been playing for maybe a year now.

The biggest problem, I think, is that the core three players of the group are used to playing with large parties.

For the longest time, we used to play in a much bigger group (Around 15-16 people total) and split the groups into 6-7 man parties and 2 DM's. Players could swap party members at certain plot points, and it usually wasn't a big deal if you had 3-4 melee people and a bunch of quirky support classes.
There'd be lots of PC death, but they'd rarely take a rez. It's not like they got super-attatched to their characters, because they'd have to share the spotlight so much. Rolling a new dude was preferrable to taking a neg level anyhow.

Me, I played one character per campaign, and it was exceptionally unusual for me to go into the negatives, much less require a ressurrection.

The main reasons weren't super-intelligent play or more common sense, or even playing high-tier. (I usually played support.) it was usually just in proper resource management.
That's really what I'm trying to pass along to the group, that there's other ways to win an encounter than deal X damage to Y target.

I don't think they're stupid, just very set in their ways. Getting the guy who always plays a fighter to go wizard last game ended up with a very different playstyle for him.
Sadly, when he went cleric this campaign, he ended up just playing a fighter again, and suiciding against the aboleth -_-.

[The Boz]

The Aboleth is now named Steve.

Please, please, PLEASE name the next one Bob.

[Chained Birds]

In soviet dungeon, aboleth farms you!

May I Sig this?

Anyways, I am enjoying the story of Steve the Aboleth VS the "Kill Everything" Adventurers. I don't really have anything new to add to this thread as it appears that encouraging the players to do new things is seen almost like an insult for them... Odd. I guess these players just sound odd to me, as I am the sort of player to take everything that would appear useless at first, and turn it into something deadly.
And I adore single-use items, especially if they are non-magical. Having an item for every situation makes me feel safe, dependable, and all around useful to the party even if my battle skills might be poor for that particular character.

Perhaps you can introduce a Survivalist Character who specializes in having an item for everything. Just stat up a lvl 4 rogue or something with a Haversack and as many items you can think of. Heck, have one of the items by some Aboleth Mucus and he/she can offhandedly say he/she got it from those mines a few months ago before he stealthily got the heck out of there.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I do regret having called your players stupid, and for that I apologize. Their actions however are rather less-than-intelligent in this particular scenario. I still think stupid actions should have dire consequences.

Btw, where does one get kid-gloves? I've never owned a pair. :smallamused:

[nedz]

Please, please, PLEASE name the next one Bob.

No, no, no: Bob is a Pit Fiend; everyone knows that.

Seriously now:

From what I've read you seem to be giving the party a lot of easy encounters (Hordes of old school Orcs) followed by one very difficult one. Now it may just be that you have not mentioned most of the encounters in the campaign (understandable), but if this is the case then how are they meant to learn ?

I think that you might need to take smaller steps in their education ?

Have Steve hire dominate some lesser challenge, but tougher than an Orc horde, to keep the pesky kids away from his grand scheme of world domination. He does have such a scheme, does he not ? Well he should since the party seem to have recruited him as their first BBEG. There's nothing like having the players generate the plot: you get their buy-in for free.

[only1doug]

I do regret having called your players stupid, and for that I apologize. Their actions however are rather less-than-intelligent in this particular scenario. I still think stupid actions should have dire consequences.

Btw, where does one get kid-gloves? I've never owned a pair. :smallamused:

First take a Baby Goat, then make Gloves out of it's hide...

(I Kid you not)

[Kelb_Panthera]

First take a Baby Goat, then make Gloves out of it's hide...

(I Kid you not)

That's terrible.......... I love it. :belkar:

Except the hidden pun, that's a groaner.

[Killer Angel]

No, no, no: Bob is a Pit Fiend; everyone knows that.

All I know is that the Pit Fiend is not Walter (http://www.goblinscomic.com/02242012/).

[only1doug]

All I know is that the Pit Fiend is not Walter (http://www.goblinscomic.com/02242012/).


It's Grinnorarcen (http://www.goblinscomic.com/03232012/)

[Acanous]

OK!
Update to the story of Steve the Aboleth and the Party that Could.

The party, as said before, has decided to go enslave some lycanthropes and sell them for money, so they could buy equiptment and go confront Steve again.

They split up, two going out with their newfound map to hunt weres, one going to ransack the orphanage for children rations, and another going around the tippyverse town and making careful use of disable device to take magical traps.

There was a good deal of roleplay here, which ended in some epicly funny moments, but you really had to be there, otherwise a goblin putting back a little girl's corpse just isn't funny.

Anyhow, the two adventurers managed to track down and diplomance three wereboars into slavery. Then the Orc had his way with them.
I want to make a joke about a certain bank here, but don't know if it would break forum rules >.>

They gathered the rather large (10k) reward for the lycans, then grouped back up and went exploring. The Rogue tracked down a pack of Triceratops, and engaged them for food. The monk ended up dead before the rest of the party figured out they should really fight these things from the air, using ranged weapons. (Again, over half the party flies.)

Returning to Underbarrow, the monk got rezzed and the party took two weeks of preperations for raiding the Aboleth lair.

I gave them a free wish-based teleport to said lair, at their leisure. They had as many buff rounds as they wanted, followed by a surprise round.

So anyhow, 10 rounds have gone by, one party member (the Barbarian) has actually seen the Aboleth. He's about 160 feet away from the rest of the party, underwater, and has succumbed to Aboleth Mucous and also the contact poison that jellifies his flesh.

He got a shot off on the Aboleth, though, and did 56 damage.

The rest of the party is searching for Steve's hidden cache, where presumably their sword is stashed. They're all seperated, can't communicate well, and nobody knows exactly where the barbarian went.
The monk thinks she's being targetted by Steve, and has communicated such. So the party is gathering on her.

Meanwhile the Orc, 100 feet underwater and on the other side of a submerged ridge, is ACTUALLY fighting the thing, is burning rage and has frenzied.

Now, I thought that Frenzy meant he had to attack the closest thing, regardless of if it was allied, but aparently he says the blood orc frenzy just limits him to one target.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but if that's the case, are his actions not forced to "Close with target, attack if able"? If so, Steve's going to kite that orc to death with his 60 foot swim speed and 15 foot reach. (Until, at least, the rest of the party shows up to help, but even then, there's a lot of water they could be in, and two possible exits [inflow and outflow])

Right now, they're both right above the vortex outflow that leads into the swamp. Steve JUST took that 56, so he's full retreating this round, and will determine the Orc's swim speed, then start kiting next round.

Illusion spells up are Veil (Invisible Stalker), Hallucinatory Terrain (To make the surface of the water look like...the surface of the water [no tracking by disturbances or ripples] in an area) Project Image (The Barbarian and the Eidolon have saved against this and know it's illusory) Perminant Image (A wall, hiding Steve's cache.)

Steve has ordered some orcs into the swamp outside, to ambush/slow down anyone who follows him out, should he need to escape that way.

The use of Protection from Evil potions, Water Breathing, and Water Walk (In the case of the Rogue) have helped the party immensely. They aren't getting kicked around. The monk, the goblin, and the rogue are still mostly useless, with the Eidolon (which now has a swim speed) and the Barbarian doing most of the actual combat.

This fight has gone on for 10 rounds. We had to pack up due to time. Next week, we'll continue where we left off.

I'm wondering if I should send in mooks for the Rogue, Summoner and Monk to deal with, as they seem kind of bored splashing around in the shallow end with cruddy swim checks.
On one hand, it would entertain them and make them feel useful. On the other, if they don't help that barbarian, he's going to die. But they haven't helped him in the last 4 rounds, so 0.o

[nedz]

OK!
Update to the story of Steve the Aboleth and the Party that Could.

The party, as said before, has decided to go enslave some lycanthropes and sell them for money, so they could buy equiptment and go confront Steve again.

They split up, two going out with their newfound map to hunt weres, one going to ransack the orphanage for children rations, and another going around the tippyverse town and making careful use of disable device to take magical traps.

There was a good deal of roleplay here, which ended in some epicly funny moments, but you really had to be there, otherwise a goblin putting back a little girl's corpse just isn't funny.

Anyhow, the two adventurers managed to track down and diplomance three wereboars into slavery. Then the Orc had his way with them.
I want to make a joke about a certain bank here, but don't know if it would break forum rules >.>

They gathered the rather large (10k) reward for the lycans, then grouped back up and went exploring. The Rogue tracked down a pack of Triceratops, and engaged them for food. The monk ended up dead before the rest of the party figured out they should really fight these things from the air, using ranged weapons. (Again, over half the party flies.)

Returning to Underbarrow, the monk got rezzed and the party took two weeks of preperations for raiding the Aboleth lair.

I gave them a free wish-based teleport to said lair, at their leisure. They had as many buff rounds as they wanted, followed by a surprise round.

So anyhow, 10 rounds have gone by, one party member (the Barbarian) has actually seen the Aboleth. He's about 160 feet away from the rest of the party, underwater, and has succumbed to Aboleth Mucous and also the contact poison that jellifies his flesh.

He got a shot off on the Aboleth, though, and did 56 damage.

The rest of the party is searching for Steve's hidden cache, where presumably their sword is stashed. They're all seperated, can't communicate well, and nobody knows exactly where the barbarian went.
The monk thinks she's being targetted by Steve, and has communicated such. So the party is gathering on her.

Meanwhile the Orc, 100 feet underwater and on the other side of a submerged ridge, is ACTUALLY fighting the thing, is burning rage and has frenzied.

Now, I thought that Frenzy meant he had to attack the closest thing, regardless of if it was allied, but aparently he says the blood orc frenzy just limits him to one target.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but if that's the case, are his actions not forced to "Close with target, attack if able"? If so, Steve's going to kite that orc to death with his 60 foot swim speed and 15 foot reach. (Until, at least, the rest of the party shows up to help, but even then, there's a lot of water they could be in, and two possible exits [inflow and outflow])

Right now, they're both right above the vortex outflow that leads into the swamp. Steve JUST took that 56, so he's full retreating this round, and will determine the Orc's swim speed, then start kiting next round.

Illusion spells up are Veil (Invisible Stalker), Hallucinatory Terrain (To make the surface of the water look like...the surface of the water [no tracking by disturbances or ripples] in an area) Project Image (The Barbarian and the Eidolon have saved against this and know it's illusory) Perminant Image (A wall, hiding Steve's cache.)

Steve has ordered some orcs into the swamp outside, to ambush/slow down anyone who follows him out, should he need to escape that way.

The use of Protection from Evil potions, Water Breathing, and Water Walk (In the case of the Rogue) have helped the party immensely. They aren't getting kicked around. The monk, the goblin, and the rogue are still mostly useless, with the Eidolon (which now has a swim speed) and the Barbarian doing most of the actual combat.

This fight has gone on for 10 rounds. We had to pack up due to time. Next week, we'll continue where we left off.

I'm wondering if I should send in mooks for the Rogue, Summoner and Monk to deal with, as they seem kind of bored splashing around in the shallow end with cruddy swim checks.
On one hand, it would entertain them and make them feel useful. On the other, if they don't help that barbarian, he's going to die. But they haven't helped him in the last 4 rounds, so 0.o

Sending in some mooks to distract the rest of the party would be good for Steve, but bad for the barbarian, unless he gets lucky.
I'd take the time to read up on that Frenzy BTW.

[only1doug]

Meanwhile the Orc, 100 feet underwater and on the other side of a submerged ridge, is ACTUALLY fighting the thing, is burning rage and has frenzied.

Now, I thought that Frenzy meant he had to attack the closest thing, regardless of if it was allied, but aparently he says the blood orc frenzy just limits him to one target.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but if that's the case, are his actions not forced to "Close with target, attack if able"? If so, Steve's going to kite that orc to death with his 60 foot swim speed and 15 foot reach. (Until, at least, the rest of the party shows up to help, but even then, there's a lot of water they could be in, and two possible exits [inflow and outflow])

Right now, they're both right above the vortex outflow that leads into the swamp. Steve JUST took that 56, so he's full retreating this round, and will determine the Orc's swim speed, then start kiting next round.


Steve has ordered some orcs into the swamp outside, to ambush/slow down anyone who follows him out, should he need to escape that way.

Sounds bad for the Orc....

Whats his current plan? ranged attacks while Frenzied and Raging? Not something that really makes sense with those class features IMO but I guess you'll get some more feedback on that soon.





The rest of the party is searching for Steve's hidden cache, where presumably their sword is stashed. They're all seperated, can't communicate well, and nobody knows exactly where the barbarian went.
The monk thinks she's being targetted by Steve, and has communicated such. So the party is gathering on her.

I'm wondering if I should send in mooks for the Rogue, Summoner and Monk to deal with, as they seem kind of bored splashing around in the shallow end with cruddy swim checks.
On one hand, it would entertain them and make them feel useful. On the other, if they don't help that barbarian, he's going to die. But they haven't helped him in the last 4 rounds, so 0.o

I wouldn't recommend the mooks, leave the rest of the party to waste their time or decide to help, distracting them will definately kill the Orc, which seems a bit unfair.

Once the entire party are fighting Steve, then add mooks, so the party has to decide whether to whittle down mooks to reduce the incoming damage or kill the boss.
(why would Steve call in minions when he doesn't need them yet, he can handle one PC easily).
If the party all waste their time while Steve is kills their Orc friend then thats their choice, don't allow the blame to be shifted to you by adding the distraction.

If you want to clue the party in to assisting the Orc then consider the statement below.
While the Hallucinatory Terrain works for visual cues the Swift Movements of Steve through the water still produce a noticable effect (kind of like swishing your hand through bathwater produces eddy currents) that the Party might get some kind of sense check to notice (If they had tremorsense it would be screaming at them) and figure out the direction. This would only be applicable while Steve is moving rapidly (actively fighting the Barbarian), at normal speed he wouldn't leave a wake.

[Acanous]

Steve is 140 feet away from the next-nearest party member. There's also a ridge in the way. I don't think that's going to happen.

I won't introduce more mooks. The Barbarian actually doesn't *Have* any ranged weapons. I don't think he can even throw his sword, underwater.
Steve is going to full retreat, which'll buy the barb a round. If he follows, though, it's going to be bad for him.


The good news, of course, is that if he dies, the party *Will* rez him. Steve will just take all his gear, and go retire in the Keyes.

Edit: I forgot to mention. The party knows his name is Steve, now. He had a dominated merchant go check up on them after it'd been a couple weeks and he hadn't seen them.

They were very upset when they learned that the thing in the pool wanted them to come back and give it more gold.

[Deepbluediver]

They were very upset when they learned that the thing in the pool wanted them to come back and give it more gold.

If your monster has managed to enrage the characters to the point where they are no longer thinking clearly OoC, and are still coming back for more despite repeated thrashings, I think you've just about won the game as the DM.

[Acanous]

I'm fairly sure, at this point, that the party will claim victory over Steve, as far as resources spent/gained go. It's really just a matter of how phyrric the victory is.
If they get that sword back, but lose the orc, they're down a member, but Steve loses out on about 64k GP.
If they go to help the orc, Steve is going to use that Programmed image as a distraction, while he makes a break for first the inflow (Where he'll cast another major image to help him stay unnoticeable) and then his hidden cache. Where he'll grab his loot and make a break for the outflow. Party will get XP for winning, but Steve keeps the sword, and is still alive.

If they follow him, well that's an ambush.

[Karoht]

I really do think that Steve needs to escape, find an Aboleth buddy to collaborate with, and commence the 'adventurer looting business' idea. And return as a later set of villains. With a certain Air Troll or two or three. Just saying.

[sdream]

Love the fishing fish.

Love the party buy in on personal affront at being fished.

[Karoht]

Good news everyone! I invented a device...
yeah, you know the rest.

Bad news everyone. I won't be able to return to this campaign at the rate things are going at work.

Good news everyone. I can keep following the adventures of Steve and friends, and even provide suggestions and such.

So, ambushes. Orcs with Crossbows ducking into and out of shallow water for cover? Along with Illusions of Orcs with Crossbows? Possibly an illusory aboleth for them to kill while Steve makes his getaway?

[Marlowe]

I have nothing to say other than "Go Steve!"

[Acanous]

So, Steve beat the party yet again.
Steve: 3 Party: 0.

Session begins. Steve full retreats down the outflow, luring the orc into an ambush. Meanwhile, his Programmed imagage activates and distracts the party.
Steve takes a couple swings at the orc (AO when Orc moves in, then on his round, one swing and then move.)

Orc's player realizes he's screwed, so he tries to follow steve *More slowly*, giving the Aboleth room to cast.

Steve sees him do so, and casts Dominate Monster on him. The orc chooses to fail his (Three!) will saves. (One VS initial dominate, with +2 from Protection from Evil, one to suppress [Pathfinder rule] with +4 bonus, and one to act against his nature, with +2 from PFE and +4 as per Dominate Monster, for a total of +6.)

So now the Orc is dominated, and swimming back up the outlet, while the rest of the party follows the illusion up the inlet.

Hilarity ensues. They get down from the Inlet after finding the meltwater feed, and encounter their own party member while the Aboleth hides safely in an ilusion at the bottom of the lake, using Project Image to talk to them.

He charges them 28,000GP for the return of their Orc.

They negotiate some, and manage to also buy the sword off of him, with the Rogue making a successful bluff that it was only a +2 sword. Don't say I never did anything nice :p

After that, the party just left the dungeon. They encountered some golems just 'cuz apparently they wanted to (One Blood, one Flesh, one Bone. Thematic! and Level Appropriate!)

Now they've decided not to go back to Aboleth Mountain until they're level 20. At which point they will just wish in, wish Steve dead, and then pee in his pool.

Then they went off to a farmhouse to enslave some humans and a couple wereboars, sell them to a sorceror so he could PaO and Mindrape them, then use them as breeding stock for the Emerald Legion.

The party alignment is now evil, btw. Don't know if I mentioned that.

After getting paid, they prepared to hunt down the next thing on the list: Air Trolls. The Summoner did the smart thing and hired a Wizard to cast some divinations. It was revealed that Air Trolls live on an island on the moon.

The party was very upset with me.

[The Random NPC]

I second (third?) the vote that Steve should retire at this point.

[nedz]

Nice work.

I think Steve should take a back-seat for a few sessions, before the party encounter him during his next gig.

How many xp did Steve earn then ?

[hoverfrog]

Oh please let there be a gate to the island on the moon at the bottom of Steve's pool. :smallamused:

[Marlowe]

Oh god. I laughed. I actually LOLed. In a PC cafe in Shantung.

Now the Chinese really do think I'm crazy.

[Acanous]

I second (third?) the vote that Steve should retire at this point.
He's planning to.


Nice work.

I think Steve should take a back-seat for a few sessions, before the party encounter him during his next gig.

How many xp did Steve earn then ?
I haven't bothered to track it, but if you want to crunch the numbers for me, on the Pathfinder Medium XP chart, he's soloed 4 CR 4's, 4 CR 6's, and 4 CR 7's. I just up and decided he'd get a level in something at this point.


Oh please let there be a gate to the island on the moon at the bottom of Steve's pool.
Well he DID just get 36000 GP...


Oh god. I laughed. I actually LOLed. In a PC cafe in Shantung.

Now the Chinese really do think I'm crazy.
Glad we could help with international relations :p

So! Given your suggestions, I think we shall have;

Steve hire a contractor to build him a Gate to the moon, which will take a few sessions. He plans to retire there, as gravity is less and the view is phenominal.

If the party encounters him again on the moon, he will farm them ONE LAST TIME, for old time's sake.

Edit: What class should Steve take a level in?

[Andezzar]

Steve sees him do so, and casts Dominate Monster on him. The orc chooses to fail his (Three!) will saves. (One VS initial dominate, with +2 from Protection from Evil, one to suppress [Pathfinder rule] with +4 bonus, and one to act against his nature, with +2 from PFE and +4 as per Dominate Monster, for a total of +6.)Too bad you're playing Pathfinder. In 3.5 the Orc would have been immune to dominate monster and any other mind-affecting spell or effect.

[The Redwolf]

I feel like a wizard specialized in illusions is a good idea, depends how many levels you're getting him. There are some entertaining options there like alchemist, which may be good as he usually plans well, he could set some bombs to prepare for them and stuff like that. He often manages to get at them when they don't know where he is, so a rogue might allow him to get sneak attacks with all of his tentacles, because he does get multiple hits, right?

[nedz]

Wizard or Beguiler might seem an interesting choice, but he already has Illusions sorted.

Something clerical perhaps ?

Or (Mystic) Ranger for BAB and stealth (and spells).
Favoured Enemies customised for the party he likes to play with.

[hoverfrog]

How about a level in Bard. The distraction and fascinate abilities make for a useful supplement to his existing powers.

[Karoht]

I think the party is done with the Illusion spell school for a while. And to a lesser extent, they've been annoyed enough by Transmutation (Aboleth Mucus is kind of like Transmutation), and Enchantment. I say give him some Wizard levels and let him play with spells which are from neither of these two spell schools. They need more effects which target Reflex and Fortitude, I think they're getting tired of making Will Saves all the time.

EDIT:
Come to think of it, I think a level or two in Bard would be hilarious.

[nedz]

Yes Bard would be funny, but you would need 2 or 4 levels for useful spells.
He could buff up his minions and serenade the party with humorous ditties.

[Karoht]

Yes Bard would be funny, but you would need 2 or 4 levels for useful spells.
He could buff up his minions and serenade the party with humorous ditties.

Steve:
Here is a little diddy I wrote. Hope you enjoy.

Buff, buff, buff, some minions, help them beat you up,
Fascinate you, steal your lewts, kick you out of my house.

[nedz]

Can we have a list of the significant items Steve got from the party, and the most memorable moments please ?

Then we can write a song for Steve.

[The Redwolf]

You should have him take bard, and then when they get to the moon they hear beautiful music coming from somewhere distant, and if they follow it they'll find Steve in a small pool on an island with a moat filled with deadly things between him and them and beautiful women sitting there next to him. He holds a lute in his...tentacles?...and is making beautiful music. If they try to cross the moat they have to deal with the dangerous stuff, and if they manage to get across he'll go through the portal in the bottom of the pool that leads back to his cave. If you want to make it funnier, and have it then decided that Steve isn't evil, especially since the party now is, make the women be lillends who are accompanying him with music from their harps and singing. Then they'll see that the aboleth who has been screwing with them this entire time is both good aligned and a good enough musician to draw celestial attention. This is my recommendation at least, just make sure he gets out of there alive.

[Acanous]

A Necklace of Fireballs, a +2 Longsword, and a +2 warhammer. He also got a bunch of other stuff, but they took it back on a subsequent run.

I'm seeing lots of "Spellcaster" suggestions. How about I give him a few levels of cleric, then retrain him Ur-Priest? Could then re-train his base level to Wizard, gnab a scroll of PaO, turn him into a beholder, go Beholder mage, then Mystic Theurge.

In Pathfinder, CR=LA, and every 3 levels you reduce LA by 1 (Minimum half rounded down). So Steve would get 4 levels and be CR 10, 2 more and he'd be 11, etc.
By CR 20 he could have 17 class levels, and getting him dual 9ths would be really funny.

[Karoht]

As cool as the Dual 9ths suggestion is, I kind of feel that he stops being 'Steve' at that point.
The Aboleth that farms adventure groups for their lewts...
Bard feels a bit more in theme. He can farm adventure groups for lutes!
Illusions + the Enchantment type spells and features that Bards get would be pretty awesome.

Plus, kicking the party's ass with a Aboleth Bard just sounds more insulting than curbstomping them with 9th level Arcane/Divine.

I mean, you know that these party members would never play a Bard.
Cuz Bards suck amirite?

I think, if Steve is going to make a return in the future, Bard + the Aboleth SLA's is not only a deadly combination, but would be the perfect creature to say to the party "Bet you still can't beat him."

[Acanous]

The party hates PrCs and multiclass characters, though. So someone who is a monster with nothing but PrC levels? Would bring down the house, y'know?

[nedz]

Prestige Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigeBard) ?
But you may need to ret-con his skills to let him qualify.

[Acanous]

Did the XP calculations, he is indeed now lv 8.

[Karoht]

Bard. For reals. Doo eeet.

[Roguenewb]

Hmm. What to do with an aboleth to let him kill players? How about the aboleth savant prestige class from Lords of Madness? I know he doesn't qualify yet, but give him a level of wizard, and let him work towards it. Plus, after he gets through it, then he'll be able to spam glyphs throughout his cave that will kill the players before they ever even reach him. I put energy drains in them once, starting salvo of the five (i think five is the most they're allowed) killed a player, nerfed the two main casters so badly they couldn't really participate, and then he mind-raped the paladin, for the giggles. I like aboleths. They're fun.

[Andezzar]

Please do not write players when you mean player characters. It is disturbing.

[Cerlis]

at 4 pages the next session has probably already happened and this advice may be wasted.

But one annoying thing about being the DM is being the most responsible person there.

It was their fault, they where stupid and spoiled.

but one failing i see in people, especially in management positions (im thinking of work now), that as the responsible one even if your persons are stupid, slow and cant think for themselves that you have to make it work.

Maybe make a short list of 4 or 5 possibilities a powerful entity might do to a party at their mercy.

and Plot devices aren't necessarily restricted by stats.

Putting the party on a geas. Put em in a dungeon. Put em in a slave mind.

Every defeat leads to a brand new quest.

Magic.

[Vaynor]

The Red Towel: Thread necromancy.