Would You Allow It?

[GnomeGninjas]

Hypothetically A PC wants to take Craft (livestock). Not breeding animals, but growing them in test tubes and things like that.

Would you allow it?
Would you never allow it?
In what circumstances would it be acceptable?

The character in question would be a some what insane magic user.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Nope, it would fall under the Profession skill.

[GnomeGninjas]

Nope, it would fall under the Profession skill.

Why? Profession doesn't allow you to create things.

[AntiTrust]

sounds like a wizard type who doesn't like that profession, although a clearly better fit, uses wisdom and not int like craft does

[animewatcha]

Wouldn't growing them in testtubes and 'things like that' fall under craft alchemy along with some x spells?

[Deophaun]

Why not? All that craft really is a way to take a resource of x value and turn it into a product of 3x value. He has no more ability to break the game than if he took gem cutting and sunk all the money he made into purchasing animals. Same effect.

So, that just leaves the RP/fluff aspect, which he seems to have covered.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I would allow it in the hope that, when he brought it up to the other party members, someone would get green around the gills.

[DementedFellow]

The only problem I have with it is an entirely personal one. I don't like the Craft (livestock) part. Is there some other word that could be substituted? The other Craft avenues sound way more sophisticated.

[Flickerdart]

When growing animals in a vat, Wisdom (knowing what not to do) is just as important as Intelligence, if not more so.

[Crasical]

Sounds like he's growing them alchemically. have him take Craft: Alchemy instead.

[NavyBlue]

Or just use adapt the clone spell to livestock....which requires all the suitable equipment

[Greyfeld85]

Craft (Genetic Engineering)?

[GenghisDon]

Hypothetically A PC wants to take Craft (livestock). Not breeding animals, but growing them in test tubes and things like that.

Would you allow it?
Would you never allow it?
In what circumstances would it be acceptable?

The character in question would be a some what insane magic user.

Not in D&D
No, it would be fine for a sci-fi game. It wouldn't likely be called Craft: livestock however.

[Greyfeld85]

Not in D&D
No, it would be fine for a sci-fi game. It wouldn't likely be called Craft: livestock however.

Yeah, all jokes aside, this is how I feel about it. The sort of mechanical and scientific knowledge you'd need to create "test tube creatures" is way past what we currently have in the modern world. In your typical D&D setting, the only way you're going to get away with this sort of thing is by magic.

[Occasional Sage]

I would allow it in the hope that, when he brought it up to the other party members, someone would get green around the gills.

Yeah, but when was the last time you saw an aquatic campaign?

[Karoht]

Hypothetically A PC wants to take Craft (livestock). Not breeding animals, but growing them in test tubes and things like that.

Would you allow it?
Would you never allow it?
In what circumstances would it be acceptable?

The character in question would be a some what insane magic user.
I would make him ratify an agreement whereby the PC makes a commitment to Organic Only livestock and produce. And Free Range chicken. That's a big deal too.
Timeline for compliance is 6 months in or out of game, whichever is shorter.

[Lonely Tylenol]

It would be an item creation feat with a caster level requirement, and possibly rolled in with Craft (alchemy), either through rank requirements or something of that sort. Something akin to Craft Construct, but on a smaller scale.

Alternately, if the player is interested in "custom brewing" monsters, I would use the grafting rules.

But yes, I'd totally allow it.

[umbergod]

Yeah, all jokes aside, this is how I feel about it. The sort of mechanical and scientific knowledge you'd need to create "test tube creatures" is way past what we currently have in the modern world. In your typical D&D setting, the only way you're going to get away with this sort of thing is by magic.

What? The world as we know it grows living creatures in test tubes all the time, what do you mean its way past what we currently have in the modern world?

[Doorhandle]

Just skip the whole issue and get him to play this alchemist archtype. Problem solved! (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/preservationist)

[Urpriest]

If it's something people can do in your setting, then you already have rules for it (PF Alchemist as mentioned above, however Eberron guys make Magebred stuff, etc.). If it isn't possible in your setting, then it isn't possible in your setting.

[Gnomish Wanderer]

I agree, if it's possible, let him do it. But Id still probably make him use Craft (Alchemy) instead of Craft (Livestock) with special rules for growing animals.

I don't see what the point of this would be, though. I wouldn't allow him to really make money on it, the cost of growing an animal has to be above the cost of just buying an animal.

[Eldan]

No problem at all. In a world with alchemy, golems, summoning and conjuration (creation) spells, it's quite a bit less weird than a lot of other stuff he could do.

The cheapest animal I could find was the Donkey, at 8GP. Growing a Donkey costs, in that case, 2 and 2/3 of a gold piece.

I'd call a Donkey a complex item, so the base DC is 20. Interestingly, that means that he multiplies his check result by 20 to find how long it takes.

So, with a roll of 20 (minimum), he has a multiplied result of 400. That's five times the requirement, so it will only take him a bit over a day to make a donkey.

[King Atticus]

Yeah, but when was the last time you saw an aquatic campaign?

Nice :smallbiggrin:

[CTrees]

Suspect he wants the skill to be livestock instead of alchemy because Craft (livestock) is much funnier.

Honestly? Seems like a reasonable alchemical exercise, and not gamebreaking. They shouldn't come out trained, though things like magebreeding or grafts may make sense and all have listed costs. As long as he could flavor it reasonably... i'd allow the skill as a refluffed craft (alchemy).

[KillianHawkeye]

The cheapest animal I could find was the Donkey, at 8GP.

Chickens only cost 2 cp. They're listed as trade goods.

[Lord_Kjeran]

Yes, I would allow it, but as a use of the "craft construct" feat in MMI. So, something a little higher level in usage than just using a skill.

[nedz]

Well some wizard once made a pair of Owlbears, that had to be possible somehow. RAW is unfortunately quite quiet on how that was done though.

I think that the character would also need some Knowledge skill ?

[eggs]

I have no idea where this would go, but I like it.

But my cynical side would make sure to lay out some clear limits. Monster emulation and creation are typically the most powerful abilities in the game, even without Fabricate churning out herds of Nightmares, Oni or Equinals.

[137beth]

It would depend on the campaign setting. In a sci-fi game, sure. But in a pseudo-medival world, no such genetic knowledge exists. They could do it magically, but in this case it would not be a craft skill, it would be a spell. So no, I would not allow it.

[Fighter1000]

No way would I allow it. It's just ridiculous and stupid.
Test tubes, in a medieval fantasy game? That doesn't make sense and sounds wrong.

[Starbuck_II]

That doesn't make sense and sounds wrong.

Just like the Owlbear. Poor owlbear, Fighter's don't like you.

[Eldan]

The world is not medieval. Casters can make water pure by touching it and produce food for a dozen people every day, at low level. They can cure any disease in seconds. That changes the game early on.
Later, we can move goods instantly, create them from nothing and change htem from one material to another. That changes the economy.

Really, in a world where casters can stop time, go for a cup of tea in heaven in the afternoon, talk to gods, summon rainbow coloured flying snakes, clone themselves, build golems out of stained glass and demon parts and create new worlds that are made out of rubber and prone to earthquakes, what is so bad about someone creating a chicken with alchemy?

[Kelb_Panthera]

No way would I allow it. It's just ridiculous and stupid.
Test tubes, in a medieval fantasy game? That doesn't make sense and sounds wrong.

Why does that sound wrong? The real world had alchemists once. They had to use something to work with those chemicals, even if they had only the vaguest notion of what they were doing.

[Zaydos]

I'm going to clock in to the: does it work in your game world.

Balance wise, I'd be careful letting them create things beyond basic animals.

But really it matters most if it fits the setting fluff.

I know in mine a combination of high level arcane and divine magic can create life as can other high level magic. Theoretically you also need the appropriate skill set (Craft (Alchemy), Knowledge skills).

So I'd say there's no universal answer only the right one or wrong one for you.

[rweird]

Maybe, it depends, I probably would have the same spellcasting requirement as alchemy, and make it livestock only, hence craft livestock, because if its animals, crafting wartrained legendary tigers is a go, and everything, you can bet they'll start making angels and dragons and ask for prices for those things. Still at low levels, animals can be rather powerful (More so in 2nd ed, two 2nd ed light warhorses sometimes were as effective as the PC with them, when he got them to attack). If I don't want something like that in my setting, no, if it's added mid game, I'd have want an explanation, and make townspeople say "That ain't natural, it ain't right." and if they know how it was made, be cautious to buy it, though the PC doesn't have to tell.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Do they want to grow actual animals, or just the meat, or similar?

I'd probably allow the lesser, as a normal craft check (so, earning money, I suppose) from (maybe) Craft: Alchemy. The latter, I might allow, but not quite so easily.

[Hiro Protagonest]

No way would I allow it. It's just ridiculous and stupid.
Test tubes, in a medieval fantasy game? That doesn't make sense and sounds wrong.

Bah!

By the D&D 3.5 rules we have:

A level 1 character. With infinite power.

Infinite action loop on a level 5+ crusader.

The ability to point at a Wall of Force spell and make it go away. Without magic.

Tippyverse.

And Eberron.

You can create Iron Man if you want. 3.5 is not what it's supposed to be. Look past the lies, and see Fabricate. See Craft (Underwater Basketweaving). See the self-resetting Create Water traps.

[Doorhandle]

Also, may I be the first to point out that a regular glass vial would also work just as well?

[Invader]

It would depend on the campaign setting. In a sci-fi game, sure. But in a pseudo-medival world, no such genetic knowledge exists. They could do it magically, but in this case it would not be a craft skill, it would be a spell. So no, I would not allow it.

^ This

I just don't see how growing animals via scientific method functions in a typical fantasy world. Some of the simplest tools needed would be a hypodermic needle and a microscope and as far as I know here's not really a viable alternative for those in most settings.

[Invader]

And don't forget the term "test tube animal" is kind of a misnomer. They aren't literally growing a cow in a big glass tube. They remove an egg and sperm and fertilize them outside of the body and then place the fertilized egg back inside the uterus.

Can you explain a method in which the PC would be able to accomplish this?

[eggs]

I don't know why it has to be achievable without magic; alchemy sets a precedent for magical crafting. The setting's more the stumbling block.

[Invader]

I don't know why it has to be achievable without magic; alchemy sets a precedent for magical crafting. The setting's more the stumbling block.

Alchemy doesn't give you magical effects, Brew potion does.

[eggs]

The results aren't magical but the process is implied to be (a sorcerer can do it, but an expert can't). That's the same impression I'm getting from the OP's situation.

[Invader]

The results aren't magical but the process is implied to be (a sorcerer can do it, but an expert can't). That's the same impression I'm getting from the OP's situation.

How do you figure the process of alchemy is anything other the alchemical? :smallconfused:

[Gnomish Wanderer]

How do you figure the process of alchemy is anything other the alchemical? :smallconfused:
Because for some confounded reason Craft (Alchemy) REQUIRES you to be a caster to craft anything, implying it takes magical knowledge to do it.

[GnomeGninjas]

I think that the does it fit in your campaign world question is a good one. It seems like most people who say "no its stupid" have campaign worlds where it is very pseudo-medival-y and the people who think it would be okay think that
as Eldan put it:

Really, in a world where casters can stop time, go for a cup of tea in heaven in the afternoon, talk to gods, summon rainbow coloured flying snakes, clone themselves, build golems out of stained glass and demon parts and create new worlds that are made out of rubber and prone to earthquakes, what is so bad about someone creating a chicken with alchemy?

They want to grow actual animals, not meat.

The method for making the animal would be somewhat magical, it would be more than growing animals via scientific method.

@invaderk2: I can't really explain the method which the PC would be able to accomplish this. I think that it is meant to be somewhat unclear and magic-y.

@ Gnomish Wanderer: I think that the point of it is humor and so that if your donkey gets killed while your in a dungeon you could spend a few days growing a new one and then taking the treasure away on the test-tube donkey instead of going back to town, buying a donkey, going back to the dungeon and then taking the treasure away on the normal donkey.

@Eldan: Could I sig "I'd call a Donkey a complex item"?

[Invader]

Because for some confounded reason Craft (Alchemy) REQUIRES you to be a caster to craft anything, implying it takes magical knowledge to do it.

Yes it requires magical knowledge, it doesn't make the things you craft magical in any way. Whatever you craft is still a mundane object, it doesn't get infused with magical properties.

[rweird]

Yes it requires magical knowledge, it doesn't make the things you craft magical in any way. Whatever you craft is still a mundane object, it doesn't get infused with magical properties.

I agree it may be magic, though it ends up being a mundane chicken, though it is created through alchemy. Making it fall under a magic item creation feat would make it so nobody would take it, you lose a bit of EXP, for a creature that won't help much, and it takes a feat.

[Urpriest]

You might use one of the weaker bags of tricks as a balancing point to figure out price.

[Tyndmyr]

Hypothetically A PC wants to take Craft (livestock). Not breeding animals, but growing them in test tubes and things like that.

Would you allow it?
Would you never allow it?
In what circumstances would it be acceptable?

The character in question would be a some what insane magic user.

I'd probably just inform them that creating crazy abnormal creatures is standard magical training(see also, the duckbunny). Thus, knowledge(arcana) will cover this.

[Eldan]

@Eldan: Could I sig "I'd call a Donkey a complex item"?

Feel free. :smallsmile: