Meleeficer

[Pandyman]

I understand the basics of what i wanna do. I kinda wanna take swashbuckler 3 to get int to damage since it has high synergy with Artificer. I know some of the basics. I know that Divine Power is a good spell to make use of, but are there any must-have/must-make items that I should take advantage of? Like boots of super almighty goodness?

I'm also open to build suggestions and feat suggestions... since this is my first artificer, I'm not overly aware of all my options. Though i do know that Lesser Tiefling is a good thing to take advantage of.

[Flickerdart]

Sinking 3 levels into what is at best +10ish to melee damage is not a worthwhile investment.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The biggest part of the reason that Artificer is T1 is because, given time, he can do anything anyone else can do, and probably better.

Melee: craft items that you would normally give to a melee character +spell trigger/completion items for spells that boost melee. Cast divine power from an item. You now have everything a melee class would have, plus the ability to buff yourself into the stratosphere.

[ThiagoMartell]

The higher level infusions don't have much to add to artificers, so you can splash a few levels without worrying too much (at most you'll be a bit delayed). I would only recommend Swashbuckler if you really want the flavor and if want to tone down your artificer brokeness. The artificer handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5929.0) will probably help you more than I could.

[Tvtyrant]

My basic understanding of a meleeficer is that it uses a lot of items like wand chambers to pick off the best melee spells well before they would normally come into the game. Power attacking with Wraithstrike, using Lion's Pounce or Rhino's Rush 5-6 levels before other classes get them, getting the Whirling property on a weapon (or that spell that does the same thing), etc.

Eventually you start using the same persistificer tricks other classes would use, but use metamagic wands rather than turn undead or metamagic reducers. So Divine Power on a wand and persisted with chargers, etc.

[Pandyman]

Sinking 3 levels into what is at best +10ish to melee damage is not a worthwhile investment.

Sinking 3 levels into what is at best +10ish to melee damage is not a worthwhile investment. well, i was thinking that by level 20, i could pump out 5-8 attacks in a full attack to make a +5-6 int mod x5-8 for an additional +25-48 damage, and maybe thunderlance to add int to hit and to damage a second time for +50-96 damage per round on top of the d6s. Though, maybe I could do better with the right items and spells.

[ThiagoMartell]

Sinking 3 levels into what is at best +10ish to melee damage is not a worthwhile investment. well, i was thinking that by level 20, i could pump out 5-8 attacks in a full attack to make a +5-6 int mod x5-8 for an additional +25-48 damage, and maybe thunderlance to add int to hit and to damage a second time for +50-96 damage per round on top of the d6s. Though, maybe I could do better with the right items and spells.

With a wand of thunderlance and metamagic spell trigger, you will be doing a lot more damage than you'll need.

[Pandyman]

With a wand of thunderlance and metamagic spell trigger, you will be doing a lot more damage than you'll need.

as well as the feat that lets me use double rings on top persisting spells that further increase size, str, and intellect could also yield much more strength, damage, etc.

does anyone know the spell that makes you gargantuan? Also, while i was reading around i was under the impression that there's another spell that makes you medium again but instead of taking away the size bonuses it adds more bonuses. this could effectively make me a strength beast by persisting 2 spells on top of divine power to effectively make me a power hitter.

like can i make use of the wu jen spell giant size?

[Psyren]

Sinking 3 levels into what is at best +10ish to melee damage is not a worthwhile investment. well, i was thinking that by level 20, i could pump out 5-8 attacks in a full attack to make a +5-6 int mod x5-8 for an additional +25-48 damage, and maybe thunderlance to add int to hit and to damage a second time for +50-96 damage per round on top of the d6s. Though, maybe I could do better with the right items and spells.

The problem isn't at 20 - it's at all the levels leading up to 20 when you are 3 levels behind in Artificer.

[PinkysBrain]

I understand the basics of what i wanna do. I kinda wanna take swashbuckler 3 to get int to damage since it has high synergy with Artificer.
Artificer builds take relatively long to grow into their power, delaying that for int to damage is not a great idea ... throw it in after level 12 if you must, if you ever get that far.

A persistificer with greater mighty wallop, divine power, lion's pounce, wraithstrike etc etc. doing thousands of damage on a charge is if course an option ... smells like limburger though. I'm more fond of quicken rather than persist, you have to make some tactical choices instead of single shotting anything which doesn't outright avoid your attacks.

You really want the Magic of Eberron extra hands belt and maybe a weapon with a wand sheath (Dungeonscape?) to quickly access wands and scrolls BTW.

[Urpriest]

as well as the feat that lets me use double rings on top persisting spells that further increase size, str, and intellect could also yield much more strength, damage, etc.

does anyone know the spell that makes you gargantuan? Also, while i was reading around i was under the impression that there's another spell that makes you medium again but instead of taking away the size bonuses it adds more bonuses. this could effectively make me a strength beast by persisting 2 spells on top of divine power to effectively make me a power hitter.

like can i make use of the wu jen spell giant size?

The spell that makes you gargantuan is Giant Size, yeah. You can't stack it with Return to Nature (what you seem to be thinking of) since the latter is a) Instantaneous and b) only works on Giants.

[Godskook]

1.You can already get Int to damage using spell attacks.

2.Archificer is stronger than Meleeficer, for the simple fact that arrows + bows means you can get an effective +19 arrow pre-epic, before all your infusions.

[hirojinbrodie]

Personally I am not sure why you would worry about fulfilling that role. Yes it is nice to be able to do, but the truly amazing features of the artificer are partially wasted on you. My first character was a artificer, and throughout the campaign we have had warforges of one type or another. You want to piss off your DM? Artificer effectively can double the available funds the party has, and has mass infusions that not only are great for the party, but turn war forges into true monsters of war (not that they needed help).
I don't disagree with what you are proposing. I am just saying that I tried to do some melee with my artificer, and found that I was far more useful (and far more impressive) when I took the warforged characters and made them hard to dmg, hard to hit, and granted them all the abilities they needed to overcome any defense the enemy could throw at us.
You want to do dmg, look up some of the combinations possible with wands.
Trust me. You don't want to lose levels in artificer. They only get better with time. In combat they can change the battlefield. Out of combat, they can give the party access to gear that their funds wouldn't normally allow them to get.

[Pandyman]

Ok, so full artificer is the way to go obviously. lol, that seems apparent now. I'm not too big of a fan of archery, I just like the idea of being capable of doing the melee for the group. However, there's no reason that i can't use a thought bottle and craft tons of crap and using as much experience as i possibly can. Then, in an instant, I can use the thought Bottle again to regain all but 500 experience. Or if i get a high enough reserve to create an item of greater restoration at later levels, as soon as i level up i can craft away all my experience and return back to the level i was at, of course the greater restoration trick isn't as useful unless i'm within 500 exp of my newly gained level.

But during this time that i'm not worried about losing experience, what's the best stuff to craft? Also, there's no reason i can't abuse wands, scrolls, etc before i get into melee range. Lets face it, the wands and whatnot will always be invaluable assets even as a persistibuffimeleeficer. The metamagic feats i'm picking up will help with almost anything except a blastificer.

[Tvtyrant]

Ok, so full artificer is the way to go obviously. lol, that seems apparent now. I'm not too big of a fan of archery, I just like the idea of being capable of doing the melee for the group. However, there's no reason that i can't use a thought bottle and craft tons of crap and using as much experience as i possibly can. Then, in an instant, I can use the thought Bottle again to regain all but 500 experience.

But during this time that i'm not worried about losing experience, what's the best stuff to craft? Also, there's no reason i can't abuse wands, scrolls, etc before i get into melee range. Lets face it, the wands and whatnot will always be invaluable assets even as a persistibuffimeleeficer. The metamagic feats i'm picking up will help with almost anything except a blastificer.

Ah cheese. There are a couple of infinite crafting tricks out there, the real question is why you would want to be kicked out of your game that badly? The artificer already gets a craft pool, and is capable of crafting normally outside of it as well.

[Pandyman]

Ah cheese. There are a couple of infinite crafting tricks out there, the real question is why you would want to be kicked out of your game that badly? The artificer already gets a craft pool, and is capable of crafting normally outside of it as well.

yeah, but I'm not too fond of losing too much experience when crafting. Especially since my DM tends to hand out less gold than the DMG chart recommends, so I wouldn't get too much use out of this trick anyways. I'm just trying to find out what things are must-craft. There are so many items and D&D source books. I'm just hoping someone here knows something off the top of their head.

I know at level 1 that Scrolls of Power word (pain) will be nice. Beyond that will require research or the insight of the people in the playground.

[Tvtyrant]

Well at level 1 you already have the ability to infuse your weapon with the bane property, so your damage is actually pretty good without any optimization at all.

[Pandyman]

The spell that makes you gargantuan is Giant Size, yeah. You can't stack it with Return to Nature (what you seem to be thinking of) since the latter is a) Instantaneous and b) only works on Giants.

Alter self would let me return to my regular medium size, but would it let me keep the size bonuses to my ability scores? "You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level..." Or would the size bonuses of medium to gargantuan not transfer to the altered form. lol i want the ability increases of being a bigger creature without actually being bigger.


Well at level 1 you already have the ability to infuse your weapon with the bane property, so your damage is actually pretty good without any optimization at all.
That is indeed a very good ability, but depending on how many encounters per day we have I might want to save the ability to give my weapon the bane property.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You never have to burn your own xp after 5th level anyway. The class gives you the ability to drain magic items to refill your craft reserve. You can just by xp in the form of cheapo magic items to drain. Alternately, you can use a home-brew item we use in my game.

Life-stone

This item allows a willing character to transfer xp into it for later use in magic item crafting. Stored xp cannot be used to increase character level, and cannot be used to cast spells with an xp component. No creature can be forced to transfer his xp into the device in any way.

Cost to create: 1500gp 60xp prerequisites: caster level 5th, retain essence class feature.


Then you just need to convince people to sell you their xp for 5gp/1xp.

[Pandyman]

I know i can absorb cheapo items, but later in the game when i get to higher levels, lets say i want to craft several rings of three wishes or something else that might be more ridiculous at about level 17. If you use the DMG crafting costs, a ring of 3 wishes costs 15k exp and 11k gold to craft, which with your suggested magic item would cost me 75k gold plus 11k gold for crafting the ring. A thought bottle costs me 20K gold and I can spend all of my 130k+ experience to craft whatever I want. Sure, that'd take me back to level 1, but after all that crafting, I could simply use the thought bottle to gain back 125.5k of that 130k exp back. 130k exp to craft with your homebrew item would be much more expensive for less use than a thought bottle later in the game. Though I will admit that it's quite useful when you're crafting items that are around 4k market price.

In the long run, for incredibly expensive items, I think a single thought bottle would save me much more gold and exp than buying items just to siphon craft reserve points from.

[Gavinfoxx]

You don't want to lose experience to crafting?

You need to read this...

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872242/Experience_is_a_River

[Pandyman]

You don't want to lose experience to crafting?

You need to read this...

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872242/Experience_is_a_River

that's actually very interesting that 1exp=12.5 gp. That's very useful when determining how much money i'm gonna make from crafting certain items. Thanks for the link.

[Gavinfoxx]

Artificers can get way, wayyyy cheaper... stretching that xp and gp even further...

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7274

As long as you can slightly undercut the market price of everyone else, and still make the same profit... you can get as much business as you want, really...

[Urpriest]

Alter self would let me return to my regular medium size, but would it let me keep the size bonuses to my ability scores? "You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level..." Or would the size bonuses of medium to gargantuan not transfer to the altered form. lol i want the ability increases of being a bigger creature without actually being bigger.


Huh. It's an interesting suggestion, but I don't think it would work. You've got two options in interpreting Alter Self. Either phrases like "you retain your own ability scores" and "within one size category of your normal size" refer to yourself unmodified by any spells whatsoever (I think this is Curmudgeon's point of view, though I'm not sure), or they refer to yourself with all active spells except Alter Self (this is what I would argue for). In the first case, you'd shrink back down to medium and lose the size bonus. In the second, you'd need to turn into a Gargantuan humanoid. I don't think you can justify interpreting the two parts of the spell differently. That said, this seems like an interesting question for the RAW Q&A thread.

[Pandyman]

Huh. It's an interesting suggestion, but I don't think it would work. You've got two options in interpreting Alter Self. Either phrases like "you retain your own ability scores" and "within one size category of your normal size" refer to yourself unmodified by any spells whatsoever (I think this is Curmudgeon's point of view, though I'm not sure), or they refer to yourself with all active spells except Alter Self (this is what I would argue for). In the first case, you'd shrink back down to medium and lose the size bonus. In the second, you'd need to turn into a Gargantuan humanoid. I don't think you can justify interpreting the two parts of the spell differently. That said, this seems like an interesting question for the RAW Q&A thread.

I've just been looking through the source books in an attempt to find something. If nothing else, I'll make a custom item and get it oked by my DM. It seems that from what whibla said, he thinks my interpretation might be right, but that the spell isn't meant to be used that way.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I know i can absorb cheapo items, but later in the game when i get to higher levels, lets say i want to craft several rings of three wishes or something else that might be more ridiculous at about level 17. If you use the DMG crafting costs, a ring of 3 wishes costs 15k exp and 11k gold to craft, which with your suggested magic item would cost me 75k gold plus 11k gold for crafting the ring. A thought bottle costs me 20K gold and I can spend all of my 130k+ experience to craft whatever I want. Sure, that'd take me back to level 1, but after all that crafting, I could simply use the thought bottle to gain back 125.5k of that 130k exp back. 130k exp to craft with your homebrew item would be much more expensive for less use than a thought bottle later in the game. Though I will admit that it's quite useful when you're crafting items that are around 4k market price.

In the long run, for incredibly expensive items, I think a single thought bottle would save me much more gold and exp than buying items just to siphon craft reserve points from.

Small hiccup: once you've used the xp to gain a level, you can't craft yourself to a lower level. So when you're on the cusp of making 18th level you have either just over, or just under 18000xp to burn, not 120,000+

[Kane0]

Are you able to use homebrew?

[Pandyman]

Small hiccup: once you've used the xp to gain a level, you can't craft yourself to a lower level. So when you're on the cusp of making 18th level you have either just over, or just under 18000xp to burn, not 120,000+

Ah, ok, that would make sense. never used a crafting character, so that's nice to know. It depends on the homebrew. I'd prefer not to dip into homebrew if i could help it. I do believe that it isn't required to level up when you get to the max exp for that level though, right? Also, by multiple uses of the thought bottle, you could still rack up 120k+ exp to spend on items. it's just that you'd end up losing more exp than i originally intended. but with all those items and free wishes, being 1 level behind won't be that big of a problem.

EDIT: Also, there's nothing stopping me from crafting a wand that causes negative level damage. Then after i use all my exp from that level crafting, I can use the wand on myself. The negative level will put me in the middle of the road experience-wise for that level, right? Then i can craft all the way down to level 1 and restore my exp with the thought bottle.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Ah, ok, that would make sense. never used a crafting character, so that's nice to know. It depends on the homebrew. I'd prefer not to dip into homebrew if i could help it. I do believe that it isn't required to level up when you get to the max exp for that level though, right? Also, by multiple uses of the thought bottle, you could still rack up 120k+ exp to spend on items. it's just that you'd end up losing more exp than i originally intended. but with all those items and free wishes, being 1 level behind won't be that big of a problem.

You may indeed choose not to level up when you have the necessary xp, so that you can use it for crafting.

I only brought up my home-brew item because I'm fond of it. In my home-brewed campaign setting it's a controversial piece of magical advancement. Some places use it as part of the economy, some places see it as an abomination of the natural order. It's original intention, however, was to give an in-world justification for crafters to be willing to take on commisions with little objection. The players provide the xp for the crafting alongside a discounted market cost. Everybody gets what they want, and I don't have to worry about the exact details of what's in a creature's treasure pile.

[Pandyman]

You may indeed choose not to level up when you have the necessary xp, so that you can use it for crafting.

I only brought up my home-brew item because I'm fond of it. In my home-brewed campaign setting it's a controversial piece of magical advancement. Some places use it as part of the economy, some places see it as an abomination of the natural order. It's original intention, however, was to give an in-world justification for crafters to be willing to take on commisions with little objection. The players provide the xp for the crafting alongside a discounted market cost. Everybody gets what they want, and I don't have to worry about the exact details of what's in a creature's treasure pile.

Ah, yeah, the thought bottle is really hated for crafting. lol I still have to decide the best things to craft. I may make something akin to the Ring of Might and toss in a ring of Greater Mighty Wallop, just because I don't want to abuse the artificer too much in the campaign.

[Kane0]

It depends on the homebrew. I'd prefer not to dip into homebrew if I could help it.

Thats a shame. Theres plenty of things out there that could help you out without needing to pore through books and over rules/cheese. Id shamelessly plug (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13405024) at this point but theres not much else I can contribute. I hope you find what you're looking for.

[Pandyman]

Thats a shame. Theres plenty of things out there that could help you out without needing to pore through books and over rules/cheese. Id shamelessly plug (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13405024) at this point but theres not much else I can contribute. I hope you find what you're looking for.

Ah, No worries, I'm always open to check out homebrew stuff. The class is very interesting, that's for sure. It does in fact fall in line with meleeficer idea I want, but my DM will more readily accept artificer just because it comes from a printed source. I wouldn't mind trying it out in the party, but i have to appease Mr. DM.

[Gavinfoxx]

You can't put spells into rings, really...

make a wondrous item of a spell. Or a wand of a spell. Or a scroll of a spell. Or a schema of a spell, if you have the feat.

[Urpriest]

You can't put spells into rings, really...

make a wondrous item of a spell. Or a wand of a spell. Or a scroll of a spell. Or a schema of a spell, if you have the feat.

A further point: the duration of Greater Mighty Wallop is quite long, so a wand of it would last awhile. You won't need it in ring form.

[Pandyman]

You can't put spells into rings, really...

make a wondrous item of a spell. Or a wand of a spell. Or a scroll of a spell. Or a schema of a spell, if you have the feat.

But... ring of three wishes? and rules for putting the wrong magical effects in the wrong body slots?

A wondrous item of some sort would be the first version i could make of it anyways. But what else would i really use the single body slot for though. Using a single body slot item i can get 1d8 unarmed damage, Imp. unarmed strike, and greater mighty wallop. Using the custom creation rules each effect after the first is only increased in cost by 1.5x the regular price for making a magic item with that spell unless I'm missing something. I feel wands, with their low UMD check might be best used for early battlefield control before i actually enter melee.

[Gavinfoxx]

Look, if you want the ways of making custom items of spells, here are the ways an artificer can do so without spending any extra feats:

Scrolls
Wands
Staves
Custom Generic Wondrous Items of Spell/Day
Custom Automatic Reset 'Boon' Magical Trap (made with Craft Wondrous Item)
Drow House Insignia (Made with Craft Wondrous Item)
Spell Turret (Also made with Craft Wondrous Item)
Spell Clocks (Again, made with Craft Wondrous Item)
Eternal Wands (Again, Craft Wondrous Item. I think also Craft Wand)

[Pandyman]

& Forge Ring at 14th level. o.o

Edit: Though the name "Eternal Wands" intrigues me.

[Gavinfoxx]

Forge Ring lets you make rings... like the example rings shown.

Eternal Wands are in Magic Item Compendium. The other options are better, generally.

Oh, I forgot. Potions. But potions mostly stuck, so don't make those.

Anyway.

Custom Wondrous Items of spells:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm

Make Command Word items (no slots used at all!) of a few uses per day spells.

Custom Traps of boon spells:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#magicDeviceTrapCost

Dungeonscape gives you precedent for boon traps. These are generally immobile.

Drow House Insignia are custom wondrous items of spells, most recently in Drow of the Underdark.

Spell Turrets are in Dungeon Master's Guide II.

Spell Clocks are here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070312a

[Urpriest]

Custom Wondrous Items of spells:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm


...you are aware those rules also include custom rings, right?

[Pandyman]

...you are aware those rules also include custom rings, right?

i thought so too, because the Fanged Ring and Ring of Power are very similar to something I wanted to make. Though I guess that i could use the slot for something better maybe.

[Gavinfoxx]

And is there any benefit for making a ring that can cast a spell 3/day rather than a slotted wondrous item that can cast a spell 3/day, or an unslotted wondrous item that can cast a spell 3/day?

[Kelb_Panthera]

And is there any benefit for making a ring that can cast a spell 3/day rather than a slotted wondrous item that can cast a spell 3/day, or an unslotted wondrous item that can cast a spell 3/day?

Other than an increased difficulty in disarming, no.

[Pandyman]

what would be better for a ring then?

EDIT: or what would be good for the slotted items in general?

[Gavinfoxx]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149464

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=350.0

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11066.0

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4400.0

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12837