Help with gestalt warlock build

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Hi Playground,

TL;DR Version: Build ideas for Warlock//Factotum or something similar; please read the requirements.

I'm helping a somewhat mechanics-averse friend make a powerful but easy-to-play casty-type in a high-power level 5 gestalt campaign. After talking with him about it he seems interested in Warlock//Factotum; massive skill monkeying, knowledge devotion, UMD everything, was all interesting.

My problem is that I'm not very experienced in playing 'locks, and other than HFW (which doesn't really fit and comes online much later) I don't know how to improve EB damage. Also given the power level of the campaign I fear that save-based effects might not be the best bet. That said, having just a few options that are all decent and never run out really helps make the character playable, so it's hard for me to let go of Warlock. Maybe I can convince him on DFA... maybe.

Here are the requirements:

- All 3.5 + Oriental Adventures (no converting other 3.0, no Dragon, no 3rd party without a lucky RL diplomacy check on my part)
- Level 5 gestalt (fractional, theurge PrCs allowed, still only advance one PrC at a time)
- Standard WBL, no one item can be more than 1/4 WBL
- Human
- Obviously, no TO
- Please no Font of Inspiration

The rest of the party so far is very heavy on melee damage; my dewd is a combination of Cleric, Incarnate and Crusader using Sapphire Hierarch and RKV to sustain the three. (As an aside, if you have any ideas on that I'm all ears. Yes, I'm using Therapeutic Mantle. No, I don't plan on action-spamming.)

If there's a way to put in Fortune's Friend (I'm thinking it might work better in Gestalt, where you can fill in the 3 non-advancing levels), it would work quite well with the concept, but it might be a little weak.

Thoughts?

[avr]

If you're using LA takes up only one side of the gestalt, something with a Charisma bonus would be worthwhile on the factotum side to help keep the invocation save DCs relevant. Maybe even pixie at LA+4, it's just doable when you're starting at level 5

If you're aiming for Hellfire warlock, remember to sneak in a level of binder.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'd recommend Warlock 20// Factotum 5/ Enlightened Spirit 10/ Factotum 5. You can actually replace Factotum in that build with pretty much anything you want, Ranger with any number of variants (Mystic, Wild Shape, Urban, etc.) is probably one of the strongest choices for that and my personal favorite.

Note that Enlightened Spirit's increase to Eldritch Blast is a flat bonus to damage, not a progression to the class feature. It doesn't count you as a higher Warlock level for the damage, and it doesn't even contribute to your caster level for it. That means any extra damage it grants to EB will stack with the standard Warlock progression when combining the two in a gestalt build.

Enlightened Spirit gets several specific invocation in addition to what a Warlock would normally have, which also stacks with the Warlock's regular progression. Note that at Enlightened Spirit 5 you get a Greater shape invocation, and at Warlock 10 your new invocation known which would normally be limited to Lesser can be Greater due to him already knowing one of that grade. Since you would normally spend a Lesser invocation on Fell Flight and you'll get Celestial Flight for free, you're really just making a net gain of one Greater invocation at one level sooner than normal.

In a normal game, Enlightened Spirit is not even playable due to it not advancing your caster level for anything at all. It's a terrible oversight that should be fixed with a house rule if someone is really interested in the class. In a gestalt game, it's basically a fix for the Warlock class to bring it up a notch in power without passing into Tier 2 territory.

[ThiagoMartell]

+1 to Enlightened Spirit, though I'd use Warblade instead of Ranger then go to town with a glaivelock build.
If you do go with Ranger, and if you're going for a glaivelock build, dip Blade Dancer. That bonus is going to be very, very helpful with DC 40 Tumble checks to move 10ft as a 5-ft step.

Warlock 20//Ranger 4/Warblade 1/Enlightened Spirit 10/Blade Dancer 1/Warblade +4 combines everything into a single build.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

avr: Again, human. And not that it matters, but LA is on both sides, which makes it especially painful.

B_F: Enlightened Spirit is an interesting, if one-dimensional, option. I doubt I can push through Mystic Ranger, and Wildshape doesn't fit... not to mention the animal companion. I do like the full BaB, all good saves and decent skills, but this character is going to have pretty good intelligence anyway (forgot to mention the 40 point buy), which is one reason I was considering Factotum in the first place. Maybe some dips would help as well... Cloistered Cleric, Binder, and Rogue all come to mind.

Thiago: I wasn't thinking Glaivelock, but it's not out of the question. I'll mull it over.

[ThiagoMartell]

Good intelligence is yet another reason for Warblade.
If you can add Eldritch Claws to the build, then it gets brutal.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Eldritch Glaive takes a standard or full round action to use, so you cannot use it to make a martial strike that also takes a standard action to use. Eldritch Claws is a swift action to activate, so that could work out with Warblade, especially if you get the Mongoose boosts.

I'd just use Urban Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rangerVariantUrbanRang er), Distracting Attack in PH2 instead of an animal companion, and switch some class skills (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a). Go with the two weapon style, and pick up Craft Wand and Double Wand Wielder; none of the other Ranger combat styles seem like they'd be of any help at all. Be sure to get Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot for your EB.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Does EB count as a weapon for distracting attack? Is Double Wand Wielder worth the feats to burn? I do like the good saves and BaB on Ranger, and the skill points are okay, but I'm still iffy on letting go of int synergy (or sneak attack with rogue, or whatever).

[Randomguy]

Use google-fu. Look for warlock, glaivelock and factotum guides.

Since your cha probably won't be high, avoid invocations with save dc's.

[ThiagoMartell]

Eldritch Glaive takes a standard or full round action to use, so you cannot use it to make a martial strike that also takes a standard action to use. Eldritch Claws is a swift action to activate, so that could work out with Warblade, especially if you get the Mongoose boosts.
Eldritch Glaive can't be activated on a standard action and Eldritch Claws only require a free action to activate.

[Soranar]

All 3.5 + Oriental Adventures (no converting other 3.0, no Dragon, no 3rd party without a lucky RL diplomacy check on my part)

Oh, I can work with that

First, a warlock (with a high CHA) is actually pretty versatile in an of itself. It doesn't really need that much more oomph to make it tier 3 or better.

Actually a warlock's main drawbacks are its lack of damage output and it could use a little more situational versatility (skillpoints and/or spells)

Ways to increase EB damage:

-sneak attack
-eldritch glaive (multiple attacks instead of just 1)
-eldritch glaive + high BAB
-any other form of precision damage

Combine that with Gestalt and you can get some pretty funky options.

note:eldritch claws is a dragon magazine option (as far as I know) so it's not allowed under your rules

Side A (warlock)

Here you want to maximize eldritch blast damage. There's no real reason not to go for hellfire warlock. Even without binding cheese you can just take the feat obtain familiar, get a familiar that can use wands (say a raven, or take another feat to get an improved familiar) and use that familiar to use a wand of lesser restoration on you every round (which is not cheesy and prevents book throwing from DMs).

Side B, here you need to choose what you want to do

-option 1 , take the sneak attack thug variant to gain high BAB, sneak attack and x4 skillpoints, d10 hitpoints and high FORT saves (fun but not that optimized)

-option 2, go for a ranged build and optimized sneak attack damage (on a single attack) and skillpoints

if you use this version (which I recommend), take rogue 5/Chameleon 10 or Factotum 5, Chameleon 10, Factotum 5

Another option is spellthief 8/chameleon (due to the spellthief's ability to boost a class' caster level through the masterspellthief feat)

Due to a chameleon's ability to use spells from any spellbook, and eventually spells from a divine AND arcane spellbook, + the abilty to mimic class features, a chameleon is actually the best way to progress sneak attack damage (for a single attack).

The arcane spell sniper's shot lets you sneak attack a target within any range (which combines well with eldritch spear). But, you also get access to any Divine spell, so you can also take the spell hunter's eye (which is a ranger spell) that grants you 1d6 sneak attack damage per 3 caster level. Due to the chameleon's unique caster progression, you get 2x your divine caster level per chameleon level, so a 9 level progression nets you 6d6 sneak attack damage (from the spell), + another 3d6 from a chameleon's ability to mimic class features (which is limited at times per day). Still, on a single attack, a level 9 chameleon can net you 9d6 sneak attack damage. (note that, if I remember right, hunter's eye uses up your swift action so you can't combine it with sniper's shot). And the mimic class feature ability is capped at 3 times a day.

Finally, there are other decent options out there (without simply taking a tier 1 class which makes the Warlock side secondary).

Rogue/Warlock, as with sneak attack thug but less durable though far more skillful.

Ninja/Warlock, combines pretty well (they cover some of each other's lousy class features but you still only have d6 hitpoints and medium BAB, personally I prefer a sneak attack Thug build).

swift hunter /Warlock build

Not as damaging as a sneak attack build but you get a solid chassis. Personnally, I really like using the hidden talent feat (which gives you a level 1 psi power) to obtain dimension hop (using that power is a swift action and it triggers the scout's damage ability since you move 10 ft with it). Obviously you also want to use the ranger levels to cast sniper's shot and hunter's eye.

[GenghisDon]

The warlock/scout gestalt worked very well in a game of ours. Ninja or Rogue should be useful as well, although move & shoot has to be the easiest thing ever.

given the feats in complete scoundrel (which didn't exist then), they can be even more offensive (BAB wise), if you like. You loose the skill monkey aspect (somewhat) that way though. Because gestalts generally face encounters 1-4 higher levels than they normally would good, BAB is important, but relying on touch attacks mitigates that enough IMHO. The other general concern of gestalt characters needs to be saves. Good in all is ideal/important as DC's will usually be effectively 0-4 higher. Poor saves=failed saves. High BAB usually gives a good Fort save, so there's that.

We have never used a factotum to date, although it looks like a pretty good choice for your gestalt.

personally, I'm no fan of PRC's & gestalt combined, but the board will fill you in on all of those right quick.

[Socratov]

So much great advice, but a few tings to add seem to remain:

1) since when is a level of bnder cheese? A Warlock and factotum needs feats as it is, so you'd better sacrifice that level for binder and keep teh feats for the warlock side (say, meta SLA feats etc, and there are way more that are useful, check the MM for those).

2) ahve you looked into taking up scout with the improved skirmish feat? it can make you into a great sniper with Eldritch Spear

3) make sure you put the most points into the ability score of the b-side. The Warlock doesn't really need CHA (and even if you do stack it, it doesn't help warlock as much as it does other classes) since strictly speaking a warlock is NAD

4) If You are up for it and understand the system you could grab incarnum and go Eldritch claws. I do caution the use of strongheart vest though, it is debated (just search any hellfire warlock thread on this board and you'll get the gist, confirm with your DM first)

5) It might not exactly be optimised, but you might wanna look into bard. Not only will you have the selfhelp side form warlock (great skillbossters) but also the the self help and buffyness from bard. Combined they make quite the sweet talker giving your friend a bit of spotlight. (and with the bardic knack feature you can pretty much do anything you would ever want, and the skills you need will be very high)

6) Don't forget about Chausuble of fell power, and Warlock's Scepter, they can greatly boost your EB dice

7) Strongheart halfling is a great choice since it will help you a bit with AC since you have no real great ways of boosting it on your own, while still keeping a bonus feat and some other goodies to have

Well, I'm out of cp for the moment. Good Luck!

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Some things that need to be re-stated:


Race is human. This shouldn't be a problem, since human works with everything that doesn't have special racial requirements.
I was thinking about going Warlock to reduce complexity. As much as I like to play full casters and incarnum-users (note how my character uses both), I'm helping this guy make a simple character. When he plays a full caster he usually sticks with a couple of spells to cast anyway, so I figured "Why not have a magic-y character with only a few spells to cast in the first place?"
Eldritch Claws is in Dragon Magazine. Eldritch Glaive is the main melee option.
There is no Warlock gestalt handbook that google picked up, so nyeh.

As for new stuff, Strongheart Vest would at the very least force me into a big lame rules debate with the DM. Binding Naberius, on the other hand, is pretty straightforward, if this dude ends up taking ability damage regularly in the first place.

Warlock//Scout is definitely a possibility as well. Considering theurge PrCs are allowed, what about something like Warlock 4/Arcane Trickster X // Rogue 3/SA Fighter 1/Scout X, using Blend Into Shadows (DotU) + at-will Darkness + optimized hide check to make sneak attack work?

[Socratov]

OK, I'll be breaking this puppy up for clarity


Some things that need to be re-stated:


Race is human. This shouldn't be a problem, since human works with everything that doesn't have special racial requirements.as does strongheart halfling, even adding a little bit of nice goods into the mix, but human is good too (take a nice special kind of human, you do want bonuses to other things besides skillpoints since you get them from factotum). If you take human, be sure to take able learner and chameleon and use the feat as an adaptable invocation. This is golden!

I was thinking about going Warlock to reduce complexity. As much as I like to play full casters and incarnum-users (note how my character uses both), I'm helping this guy make a simple character. When he plays a full caster he usually sticks with a couple of spells to cast anyway, so I figured "Why not have a magic-y character with only a few spells to cast in the first place?"[\quote]I agree that warlock si a great introduction to magic users, do help him with the invocations though as they can be confusing as to how good they are. Incarnum can go on a routine base, you won't be fully using it, but it can be a great support to the things you do during the day (see if you can get extra defensive bonuses if you want to melee, and otherwise extra defense on a warlock is never a waste)[quote][LIST=1]
Eldritch Claws is in Dragon Magazine. Eldritch Glaive is the main melee option.Although I can't seem to find it, I thought there was something in magic of incarnum granting about the same, I just can't seem to find it... I you want to use factotum, knwo that glaive is a full round action, not jsut a standard, so don't go wasting them

There is no Warlock gestalt handbook that google picked up, so nyeh.
That is quite simply because a warlock is a loner class. it interacts nicely with almost every other class because it doesn't need much beyond empower SLA and a few tricks if you are into them (though extra invocation never seems to be a waste). You could use the other side of the gestalt to either broaden the repetoire (skillmonkeying or fighting for instance) or to focus on improving one of your talents (with artificer you can make a veeeery mean crafterlock at lvl 12 with 2 levels of chameleon, creating magic items at almsot no cost whatsoever from all the sources, and you can all use them (at elast that's what I read in what you get at lvl 4)

As for new stuff, Strongheart Vest would at the very least force me into a big lame rules debate with the DM. Binding Naberius, on the other hand, is pretty straightforward, if this dude ends up taking ability damage regularly in the first place.

Warlock//Scout is definitely a possibility as well. Considering theurge PrCs are allowed, what about something like Warlock 4/Arcane Trickster X // Rogue 3/SA Fighter 1/Scout X, using Blend Into Shadows (DotU) + at-will Darkness + optimized hide check to make sneak attack work? That could actually work quite well and be fun to play :smallamused: bonuspoints if you can play as an awakened shark (and that's the last time I will be referencing Dr. Evil)

Oh and something else, warlock//scout+fell flight+flyby attack+improved skirmish makes for a great way of damaging and staying at a safe distance. Take flee the scene for problem scenarios and you're golden :smallcool:

[Krazzman]

OK, here is how I would build it.

Warlock 17/Hellfire Warlock 3//Binder 1/ Dragonfire Adept 19.
Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Quicken SLA[BoVD], Empower SLA and so on.

Invocations from warlock:
See the Unseen, Entropic Warding, Eldritch Spear and Choose one: Fell Flight, Walk Unseen or Flee the Scene [note this is for level 6]
Greater Invocations of major benefit: Vitrilious Blast, Chilling Tentacles, Wall of Perilious Flame.
Invocations from Dragonfire Adept: anything you want that you didn't get from Warlock.

Now... why DFA? you get a breath attack for those Pesky swarms and afair I think the Breathweapon of DFA is a SLA... please correct me on this haven't looked at that class in quite some time.

Items of Note:
Chasuble of Fell Power (+1d6 or +2d6)
Gloves of Eldritch Admixture (+2d6 Eldritch Blast 3/day)
Warlock Scepter (+3d6 EB X/day...don't know how often)

Another advantage: You'll need one or 2 Attributes. Dexterity and Constitution. Additionally invest in high Wisdom. Now all 3 Saves should be pretty high. Maybe invest in some save reroll feats later and you are set.

It might not raise EB damage on it's own but it should be a viable build that is pretty easy and pretty straight forward what to use in which situation.
Thanks to DFA you get 2times the Invocations (which are at least all SLA's so he can QUICKEN every one at least once).

Hope this helps.

[ThiagoMartell]

DFA doesn't really help in a warlock build. Most of what you could get from DFA you can get as a Warlock through feats (Infernal Adept) or eldritch shapes anyway. More importantly, it doesn't help eldritch blast in any way, shape or form. You're stuck either ignoring eldritch blast or the breath weapon (which is a supernatural ability) most of the time.

[Socratov]

My proposed build (not 100% original, but then again, what is?)

Warlock+scout

Warlock 10/hellfire Warlock 3/Warlock 7//scout 8/binder 1/scout 11
feats: PBS+Precise Schot+Improved precise shot+Improved skirmish+Flyby attack+empower SLA+Quicken (flee the scene)

same items as Krazzman

Invocations: see the unseen, Fell Fight, Flee the Scene (seriously, this is golden), Chilling Tentacles of forced sanity loss intrusion (that's the short titel anywaylong one is Chilling spiked tentacles of very painful and doomy hentai intrusion and for nice stuffs: baleful polymorph, baleful utterance and Eldritch spear. You will need hellrime blast or brimstone blast to qualify for HFW.

your job? Use your d6's, and if that don't work, use more d6's. Instruction here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i68cEsALWt0), fly 20ft, shoot, flay out of reach again all the while using your Eldritch spear. You will now be able to keep at a safe distance and roll a lot of dice.

Out of combat you can track and look mean, but for the rest you aren't really contributing. Nice and simple.

warlock+bard

This seems folly, stupid, spoony even, but it tends to work quite well. The warlock part can help you make yourself stronger, and the bard part can do the rest.

warlock 10/Hellfire warlock 3/warlock 7//bard 8/virtuoso 1/binder 1/sublime chord 2/virtuoso 8

take the prerequisite feats, follow up with all the feats as described above and use the warlock items, with a masterwork horn. use the Eberron ACF for suggestion, use healing Hymn from Cdiv(or Cchamp) isntead of fascinate. The race here is Siverbrow Human allowing you to take DFI and you'll be soemthing the party welcomes like a pile of gold (and it will add to your d6's you can throw around) Get bardic Knack and invvest skillpoints into the things you really care about (know. planes, Concentrate, perform, social skills) et voilá, you have now built something you can use in and out of combat with a slight spotlight role, great introduction into DnD.

Enjoy!

Good Luck, Have Fun.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

AFAIK Eldritch Blast isn't a weapon; Bard wouldn't exactly be a good fit in that case.

[GenghisDon]

not a weapon-like spell/effect? really? ray of frost or enervation count, don't they? why not eldritch blast (as long is it's not an AOE version)?

[Socratov]

AFAIK Eldritch Blast isn't a weapon; Bard wouldn't exactly be a good fit in that case.

According to Complete Arcane EB counts as a weaponlike spell, which means that you need to roll an attack roll to see if you hit and any effects helping or hindering this action are of effect. In which case bard would fit nicely no? :smallamused:

[Krazzman]

DFA doesn't really help in a warlock build. Most of what you could get from DFA you can get as a Warlock through feats (Infernal Adept) or eldritch shapes anyway. More importantly, it doesn't help eldritch blast in any way, shape or form. You're stuck either ignoring eldritch blast or the breath weapon (which is a supernatural ability) most of the time.

Feats that you don't have. Powerful is... well odd. But this combo is SUPERB Easy. Choosing Invocations from 2 Classes, equally doubling your invocations should bring a good upturn in versatility. Having the possibility to take Eldritch Chain and STILL getting your flight, walk unseen and so on.

Now IF you want to do it the mean/cheesie way (which still doesn't bring that much damage):

Warlock 10/Hellfire Warlock 3/Champion of Legacy(HFW)6/Warlock 1//Bardstuff from Socratov.

That way instead of going back to the Warlocks slow progression of EB you get the HFW's for more.
If I count that correctly this would be: 6d6 due to HFW, 6d6 due to Warlock and 8 or 10 d6 from CoL (I think in those 6 levels are one or two levels where the EB does not advance further). Granting you 20 or 22 d6 of HellfireEB + DFI dice. I think that this would then be (don't know for sure) ~30d6 as a Touch attack (with Greater Chasuble of Fell Power).
Now we have Empower (3/day) and Gloves of Eldritch Admixture + Warlock Scepter. Giving 20d6 +2d6 + 2d6 + 1d6 = 25d6x1.5+5d6 (DFI, if this isn't also multiplied by empower). Now we could have maximise SLA also for 225+5d6. This 3/day else it stays 22d6 (average of 77+5d6) as a Touch attack. DPR might not be that high but it is a) easy and b) pretty destructive to castlewalls if you take hammer blast and c) you hit for something around +21 before any other modifiers (like dex improvements after you got that 20).
If you have QUICKEN SLA you can a) use every one of your Invocations Quickened Once per day (1 Invoc/round) and your Eldritch Blast too.

And yes this would be considered as cheese.

I hava seen the discussion about this... I doubt any sane DM would say ok to that build... but well give it a try :D

[Socratov]

Feats that you don't have. Powerful is... well odd. But this combo is SUPERB Easy. Choosing Invocations from 2 Classes, equally doubling your invocations should bring a good upturn in versatility. Having the possibility to take Eldritch Chain and STILL getting your flight, walk unseen and so on.

Now IF you want to do it the mean/cheesie way (which still doesn't bring that much damage):

Warlock 10/Hellfire Warlock 3/Champion of Legacy(HFW)6/Warlock 1//Bardstuff from Socratov.

That way instead of going back to the Warlocks slow progression of EB you get the HFW's for more.
If I count that correctly this would be: 6d6 due to HFW, 6d6 due to Warlock and 8 or 10 d6 from CoL (I think in those 6 levels are one or two levels where the EB does not advance further). Granting you 20 or 22 d6 of HellfireEB + DFI dice. I think that this would then be (don't know for sure) ~30d6 as a Touch attack (with Greater Chasuble of Fell Power).
Now we have Empower (3/day) and Gloves of Eldritch Admixture + Warlock Scepter. Giving 20d6 +2d6 + 2d6 + 1d6 = 25d6x1.5+5d6 (DFI, if this isn't also multiplied by empower). Now we could have maximise SLA also for 225+5d6. This 3/day else it stays 22d6 (average of 77+5d6) as a Touch attack. DPR might not be that high but it is a) easy and b) pretty destructive to castlewalls if you take hammer blast and c) you hit for something around +21 before any other modifiers (like dex improvements after you got that 20).
If you have QUICKEN SLA you can a) use every one of your Invocations Quickened Once per day (1 Invoc/round) and your Eldritch Blast too.

And yes this would be considered as cheese.

seen the discussion about this... I doubt any sane DM would say ok to that build... but well give it a try :D

Ehm, iirc 2 invocationsclasses don't stack (name as 2 arcane spellcasting classes).

Legaal champions is very cheesy, you would use uncanny trimester though, for slightly less cheese.

Lasten, if you would go bard, get chaos music as a feta since it will raise your dfi with another 1. Wriggle words of creation in there an win fights :smallamused:

[ThiagoMartell]

I don't think DFI even works with eldritch glaive.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Thiago, you are correct.
According to Complete Arcane EB counts as a weaponlike spell, which means that you need to roll an attack roll to see if you hit and any effects helping or hindering this action are of effect. In which case bard would fit nicely no? :smallamused:So, here's the part of Complete Arcane you were talking about:

All such spells deal damage as spells, not weapons, so Strength modifiers to damage and magical effects that increase weapon damage (such as the bard's inspire courage ability and the prayer spell) don't increase damage from a weaponlike spell.Emphasis mine.

Also, two invocation classes stack, as long as they're not the same one, just like you can take Crusader//Swordsage, Wizard//Sorcerer, Cleric//Archivist, etc. It's just usually not done because it doesn't give you a lot more than what you already have. I agree it's easy, but I think we're going too far in that direction. His actions still compare to people dishing out (non-uber) charger levels of damage.

[Socratov]

Then no dfi , but regulier bard :smallamused: the dag romig is not noteworthy anyway, the spells to hit bonus is nice to have, as well as the spells and utility (and partjes love bards away, so...)

[Axier]

Ehm, iirc 2 invocationsclasses don't stack (name as 2 arcane spellcasting classes).


Gestalt characters with more than one spellcasting class keep track of their spells per day separately.


While they do not stack, they still have two different sets of invocations, therefore having seperate invocation tracking anyway. They would essentially have double the Invocations, but they are from two different lists.

And even if you were treating it as a non-spellcaster, they are still different class abilities. They do not pull from the same list.

Also, for intention, I believe them to be spellcasters, but this would technically be up to DM if both my previous points turn out to be wrong, because they do not directly cover anything outside of PHB 1 and 2, DMG, and MM 1 in UA. Therefore neither of these classes have RAW Gestalt rulings on their Invocations.

[ThiagoMartell]

While they do not stack, they still have two different sets of invocations, therefore having seperate invocation tracking anyway. They would essentially have double the Invocations, but they are from two different lists.

And even if you were treating it as a non-spellcaster, they are still different class abilities. They do not pull from the same list.

Also, for intention, I believe them to be spellcasters, but this would technically be up to DM if both my previous points turn out to be wrong, because they do not directly cover anything outside of PHB 1 and 2, DMG, and MM 1 in UA. Therefore neither of these classes have RAW Gestalt rulings on their Invocations.
I don't know if there are enough good invocations to make this build work. There are very few invocations that are worth it. Anyway, that's the weakest kind of gestalt - just adding random stuff. If you want to optimize gestalt, you need to do it as anything else, by finding synergies. As mentioned before, Warlock//DFA has no synergies.

EDIT: On the other hand, Warlock 17/Hellfire Warlock 3//Paladin (of Freedom, Slaugher or Tyranny) 2/Binder 13/Knight of the Sacred Seal 5 is a versatile CHA-focused build. the 2 levels of Paladin could be pushed to the end or not, but two levels of something that does not advance Binder are almost mandatory (after all, at low levels you will be taking Practiced Binder). Or you could retrain it.

[Axier]

I don't know if there are enough good invocations to make this build work. There are very few invocations that are worth it. Anyway, that's the weakest kind of gestalt - just adding random stuff. If you want to optimize gestalt, you need to do it as anything else, by finding synergies. As mentioned before, Warlock//DFA has no synergies.

It adds versatility, its not MAD, and lets you get a deacent amount of versatility from one side, and focus on the other. For example, you can use the debuffing breath weapons, and DFA invocations for your utility functions, and focus on eldrich blast with the Warlock. Plus, you NEVER run out of power.

Im not saying its the best Warlock Gestalt, but it is pretty fun.

[ThiagoMartell]

It adds versatility, its not MAD, and lets you get a deacent amount of versatility from one side, and focus on the other. For example, you can use the debuffing breath weapons, and DFA invocations for your utility functions, and focus on eldrich blast with the Warlock. Plus, you NEVER run out of power.

Im not saying its the best Warlock Gestalt, but it is pretty fun.
What I meant is that Binder adds more versatility and actually makes you more fire. DFA//Warlock plays like either a Warlock or a DFA with a few extra invocations. You simply can't use their abilities together.
Gestalt usually needs a good mix of passive and active abilities. DFA//Warlock fails to provide that mix. It can be fun, sure. Monk can be fun too.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I've never actually made a binder, and the binder handbook is a bit confusing. I assume if I go KotSS I'll use Eldritch Glaive with it; what binds/binding feats are good with this combination? I understand Naberius heals ability damage; what else?

[Socratov]

I've never actually made a binder, and the binder handbook is a bit confusing. I assume if I go KotSS I'll use Eldritch Glaive with it; what binds/binding feats are good with this combination? I understand Naberius heals ability damage; what else?

It also helpt with social counter, living a bonus on diplo, bluff, intimidate and sense motive

[ThiagoMartell]

I've never actually made a binder, and the binder handbook is a bit confusing. I assume if I go KotSS I'll use Eldritch Glaive with it; what binds/binding feats are good with this combination? I understand Naberius heals ability damage; what else?

Paimon nets you Weapon Finesse and a bonus to Dex, boosting your eldritch glaive passively. With Quicken SLA, you can quicken eldritch glaive, performing a full attack in one target and you can use Dance of Death immediately after that, crossing the battlefield and hitting everyone else with your eldritch glaive. Andromalius or the other sneak attack vestige will boost your damage output.
KotSS nets you defensive skills.
Focalor and other debuffing vestiges work well if you have debuffing essences.