Dwarven Battle Oracle... That's blind? [PF]

[Elvencloud]

So one of my players is replacing his bard ( he feels that his character isn't well liked by the current party) and is going to play a dwarven battle oracle.

When I asked him what he wanted for his curse, he chose blindness.

Any tips to help me manage the tank that's blind beyond 30 feet?

[grarrrg]

So one of my players is replacing his bard ( he feels that his character isn't well liked by the current party) and is going to play a dwarven battle oracle.

When I asked him what he wanted for his curse, he chose blindness.

Any tips to help me manage the tank that's blind beyond 30 feet?

Wow.
Flurry of Face-Palms going on.

Race with CHA penalty going Oracle.
Racial Darkvision of 60ft. replaced with Darkvision 30ft.
Oracle is the party's Tank.

You have more than one problem...But to address your actual question, don't use a lot of archer opponents.

[Elvencloud]

To be perfectly honest, at least he had an eightee... I mean sixteen for Charisma. :smallbiggrin:

Good old racial perks, eh?

So not a whole lot of archers- that sucks for... the archer character. :P

[CTrees]

You could sorta make it work, but... man that sounds awful.

[Corlindale]

It's not that horrible if he's the melee-guy. Since I assume he'll be mostly hitting stuff, buffing and healing, he will usually be dealing with stuff pretty close to him.

It may be a little tough in the first few levels, but at 5th level he gets 60' range vision which usually covers most regular "battle areas". And in any case his charge range will only be 40' - and who needs to see further than that anyway?

And later on his curse becomes rather nice for a melee guy, granting blindsense and blindsight. Blindsight especially is fantastic for a melee-fighter (even better if he creates situations that let him take advantage of it).

[avr]

The Maneuver Mastery revelation for grapple to stop people getting away might be useful to a blind battle oracle.

The party needs to put a little effort into keeping him informed, but he should be capable of taking cover & helping with buffs, or else charging off in the direction he's told to go. Some trust will be required of course.

[Elvencloud]

So far, so good. I have to remind him every once in a while he's blind beyond the 30' range, but he is pretty good about it.

The party and him are having trust exercises- point him and go. With a friend of ours joining as a barbarian, they may become good friends; although, sometimes I question the wisdom of charging into battle with a barbarian. :smallsigh:

[Doorhandle]

indeed. You should be charging BEHIND the barbarian. :smalltongue:

Also, he can still HEAR beyond 30ft, so he could probably find his way over there anyway. tell him to remeber that.

[Psyren]

As terrible a combo as it is, he's still a T2 class. Your party should be fine and this can result in some interesting situations.

[Cieyrin]

Also, he can still HEAR beyond 30ft, so he could probably find his way over there anyway. tell him to remeber that.

Exactly. Perception is a class skill for Battle Oracles, Dwarves do get a bonus in Wisdom and Perception covers more than what you can hear. It covers all 5 senses, not just sight, so he could be smelling his enemies from the other side of the room for all we know, feeling the rumble of their steps beneath his feet and tasting the sweat and fear of his enemies driven before him. Incidentally, Stone Sense (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/stone-sense) may not be a bad feat for him.

[Corlindale]

Can't see really see what he would gain from Stone Sense. At 10th level, when he can qualify for it, he already gets blindsense 30 feet, which is far superior to tremorsense 10 feet in almost all situations I can think of.

[Cieyrin]

Can't see really see what he would gain from Stone Sense. At 10th level, when he can qualify for it, he already gets blindsense 30 feet, which is far superior to tremorsense 10 feet in almost all situations I can think of.

Blindsense won't pinpoint, Tremorsense will, meaning ignore concealment in that radius.

[Kane0]

Just going to leave this plug (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231110) here...

Hope it helps :P

[Elvencloud]

:O

My player just saw that and practically dropped his jaw. He really, really likes the flavor of it, and I think it'd be funny if the Not as Blind as you Think would only apply outside of his radius of sight- it'd be hilarious. ^-^

Edit: I should read better. Considering it just has to do with the hearing, I think that wouldn't be an issue at all!

[Kane0]

Glad to hear it :smallbiggrin:

[ChippyClockwork]

VYa I am pretty crazy. But I was thinking that once you got past the initial suck of seeing 30 feet you get more benefits later. Plus if I am buffing I dont need to worry so much about dcs and whatnot:smallbiggrin:

[StreamOfTheSky]

Blindsense won't pinpoint, Tremorsense will, meaning ignore concealment in that radius.

Lol...wut?


"Blindsense (Ex)
Using nonvisual senses, such as acute smell or hearing, a creature with blindsense notices things it cannot see. The creature usually does not need to make Perception checks to pinpoint the location of a creature within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature...."

[Larpus]

VYa I am pretty crazy. But I was thinking that once you got past the initial suck of seeing 30 feet you get more benefits later. Plus if I am buffing I dont need to worry so much about dcs and whatnot:smallbiggrin:
You do, but at first it's 30 feet "darkvision" (against the standard dwarf 60 feet) and it's only starting at level 10 that the good stuff actually comes, especially for a dwarf-based character.

So from an opmizer standpoint, it was a poor choice (not completely gimped or unplayable, just poor).

As for the player's build specifically, he's indeed pretty fine with 16 Cha, as long as he doesn't forget that his role is not really that of a divine caster (as in "spellcaster") and chooses mostly or even exclusively buff-type spells, so the DC doesn't matter much, otherwise, between his Cha penalty and probable neglect of Cha with level-up points will make for a bunch of wasted actions casting.

I posted on another thread about a similar subject, but if you, as a DM, feels that his character is weaker than the rest of the group, then a house-rule I commonly use is that races that get a Cha penalty are treated as having +2 Cha for nearly anything related to spellcasting that keys off from Cha.

Reason for that is that most classes that have said penalty have it for being ugly or rude, but I don't see how that makes them any less of a spellcaster.

Still, in this particular case, it might not be needed at all.

[StreamOfTheSky]

"...a house-rule I commonly use is that races that get a Cha penalty are treated as having +2 Cha for nearly anything related to spellcasting that keys off from Cha."

That is horrifically broken. You're basically giving away a free +4 to a stat. Aside from paladins, the only reason you want charisma high is for spellcasting, otherwise it is a dump stat. With your rule, I could choose a race with say... +con and int or +dex and int, that pays for it w/ a -2 cha modifier, use your rule, put an 18 into cha before racial, and my sorcerer will still end up w/ bonus spells and save DC as if I had a 20 in charisma, on top of reaping the benefits of higher [insert other 2 scores here]. Hell, just make a goblin sorc. Effective cha of 20 for anything that actually matters and +4 dex! Hurray!

[Hecuba]

"...a house-rule I commonly use is that races that get a Cha penalty are treated as having +2 Cha for nearly anything related to spellcasting that keys off from Cha."

That is horrifically broken.

It's only broken if someone is going to try to optimize around it. If the players unintentionally gimp themselves and don't try to optimize, that isn't much of an issue.

The fact that the solution could be exploited does not prevent it from being a solution to the problem at hand, especially when there is a well founded expectation that no one willl exploit it.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Oh, so you try to punish people that optimize and/or reward people that don't...

Do you also fudge rolls to make sure everyone has the same amount of luck with the dice? Or is being knowledgable of the rules the only advantage a player may have you feel the need to keep in check?

[Hecuba]

Oh, so you try to punish people that optimize and/or reward people that don't...

Do you also fudge rolls to make sure everyone has the same amount of luck with the dice? Or is being knowledgable of the rules the only advantage a player may have you feel the need to keep in check?

I said nothing about punishing anyone.
What I did say is that there is a specific set of players for which your concern is not salient. I would also note that I would expect that that would have some significant overlap with players who voluntarily seek out blindness without a good grasp of the mechanical consequences thereof.

But to be blunt, if I have a group with vastly different skill levels in optimization, I have no issue with a handicap. And a handicap is, definitially, something you give to the less skilled party (as opposed to the more skilled party).
I do the same thing when I golf with my brother, who is only on the course a couple of times a year. To do otherwise would be rude and unsporting.

[Larpus]

"...a house-rule I commonly use is that races that get a Cha penalty are treated as having +2 Cha for nearly anything related to spellcasting that keys off from Cha."

That is horrifically broken. You're basically giving away a free +4 to a stat. Aside from paladins, the only reason you want charisma high is for spellcasting, otherwise it is a dump stat. With your rule, I could choose a race with say... +con and int or +dex and int, that pays for it w/ a -2 cha modifier, use your rule, put an 18 into cha before racial, and my sorcerer will still end up w/ bonus spells and save DC as if I had a 20 in charisma, on top of reaping the benefits of higher [insert other 2 scores here]. Hell, just make a goblin sorc. Effective cha of 20 for anything that actually matters and +4 dex! Hurray!
Oh, nononono, it's not a +2, is "treated as +2 Cha after your -2 Cha is factored in", or simply being treated as having no Cha penalty, in your example, just 18 Cha.

I agree that it's not completely balanced, which is why it's a houserule that is only fling around at all when the player wants to make a caster (and focus on the caster aspect, as warrior types can make do with 16 or even less) that is based on Cha but also wants a race that has a penalty in it. And, again, all that only if said character seems to be weaker than the rest.

Another possibility is to give the option of cancelling one of the +2s in another stat to cancel the penalty.